anybody had experience with AXA Advisors aka AXA Equitable?

[gallo146]

A friend from church offered free advice on investment and financial planning through a company called AXA Advisors.We told him about our investments and he now is coming back to tell us his recommendations at the endof the week on what we should do to improve our finances utilizing their products.

We doubt if we will change from our Vanguard investments. But we dont loose anything on listening. However, we are still curious have any one of you heard of this company and what should i be concern ahead of time? i will appreciate your advice.

[BL]

Google AXA advisors scam. Scary stuff!

I don't know anything about them.

[gallo146]

thanks! ill keep you all posted after Friday's meeting. Keep in tune to this posting.

[pkcrafter]

gallo, this is a shark attack. I would not even spend time listening to this guy, who is not really your friend. These guys join churches and social organizations to find prospects. The advisor is not even an advisor because he's registered with FINRA, the agency that oversees brokers. Brokers are not required to provide fiduciary responsibility. AXA is an insurance company, and he's going to try to sell you an annuity. Don't even waste your time. And yes, Google AXA complaints.


Paul

[gallo146]

Thanks Paul,

Actually this person is not really a ¨friend¨but a person we know at church and listed as financial retirement planner. After we met the first time for data gathering and he provided us with his bio and his assistant´s as well as the company´s information i figured out i didnt need it. Later i looked up the company in Google and figured out what you told me that most probably they would sell me load funds, long term disability insurance, life insurance etc. I had asked them about whether Vanguard was listed and it was not among the funds they service. Gabelli, Templeton and Fidelity were though. I will keep you informed.
BTW i did google AXA scams and it is worst than it seems. It will change my opinion of this person if he tries to push me any of the above. He seems to be a sort of a leader of one of the church´s group.

ill let you all know after Friday.!! and thanks!

[dbr]

I would consider cancelling out on some plausible excuse or just a polite "not interested." The more time you spend with them the harder the sell will be and the more difficult it is to plausibly ignore them. This is especially difficult with people who abuse social and religious connections to peddle their wares.

[BL]

You could post your holdings here and get unbiased suggestions from pros here who have nothing to gain from you. Much better advice and it would show you how to invest in low expense index funds or at least low-cost active funds if you prefer without paying the salesman/broker.

The salesman will always have a "good" answer to any of your concerns. Much better, as others suggested, to avoid him at all costs. Using church or other affinity groups puts them at a great advantage and you at a gread disadvantage. Much harder for you to say NO!

[gallo146]

thank you for your advice.///i will post a new post with our holdings and ask you all to comment please look for a newe posting soon!..

[ElJay]

Yeah they'll sell you an expensive annuity.

[yobria]

I'd treat this guy like any salemen who knows the ripe places (like church) to prospect.

Nick

[brick-house]

IMHO AXA is bad news. I agree wholeheartedly with the concerns expressed by other posters and their suggestion to cancel the meeting. The AXA guy is a salesman. Financial Planning is a ruse for him to get a meeting and pitch products. If you agree to the meeting, then he will put the sales machine in overdrive.

A member of my family was involved with AXA. The family member was sold a "portfolio" of B share mutual funds with expense ratios of around 2%. Some slightly higher, some slightly lower. The kicker was that the B shares carried contingent deferred sales charges that descended over a six year period. Some of the deferred sales charges could be as high as 5%.

The contingent deferred sales charges boxed the family member into these investments. If they sold, then the outrageous deferred charges would kick in. If they held, then they were charged 2% for an expense ratio. In addition, this family member was six years from retirement and given a stock heavy allocation of 75% stocks.

I called the AXA "advisor" about the investments and the charges. He was unapologetic and stated that is what his type of financial planning and investment services are worth. So it goes...

[gallo146]

thank you all for your insights i am going very prepare to my friday meeting

[leonard]

I would find a reason to get out of the meeting. It is a waste of time for you.

Also, unfortunately, even when you don't become a client, the AXA advisor can truthfully (but misleadingly) tell other members of the church that he has "Already met with gallo146 and his family". The advisor could use that to mislead other members in to thinking they are already doing financial services for you and other church members, implying credibility and background within the church community that is not there.

[mephistophles]

I'd treat this guy like any salemen who knows the ripe places (like church) to prospect.

Nick

Yoriba is absolutely correct. Legitimate sales people, illegitimate sales people and rip-off artists prospect in churches. They often get the Pastor to endorse their schemes. This sometimes is done with the endorsement of the National organization. Safest thing is to just say no.

All other advice you got here is excellent.

[gallo146]

I'd treat this guy like any salemen who knows the ripe places (like church) to prospect.

Nick

Yoriba is absolutely correct. Legitimate sales people, illegitimate sales people and rip-off artists prospect in churches. They often get the Pastor to endorse their schemes. This sometimes is done with the endorsement of the National organization. Safest thing is to just say no.

All other advice you got here is excellent.

thank you!

[dbonnett]

I have often wondered if these church sponsored or affiliated financial programs were an attempt to "out" your assets.

[brushwood]

We doubt if we will change from our Vanguard investments. But we dont loose anything on listening. However, we are still curious have any one of you heard of this company and what should i be concern ahead of time? i will appreciate your advice.

Don't even bother to go listen. It's a waste of time. I spent 5 years working for a company that contributed 16% of my salary to a 403(b) at AXA Equitable. This was mandatory. The fund ER's started around 1.0% for a S&P 500 index plus a 1% expense for some annuity related nonsense. I think some of the ER's for the more expensive funds topped out around 5%. When I left there was a 7% (If I remember correctly, might have been 9) surrender charge which I grudgingly paid to roll it into an IRA. I had no choice in the matter so I couldn't avoid it but you do so stay far, far away.

[gallo146]

We doubt if we will change from our Vanguard investments. But we dont loose anything on listening. However, we are still curious have any one of you heard of this company and what should i be concern ahead of time? i will appreciate your advice.

Don't even bother to go listen. It's a waste of time. I spent 5 years working for a company that contributed 16% of my salary to a 403(b) at AXA Equitable. This was mandatory. The fund ER's started around 1.0% for a S&P 500 index plus a 1% expense for some annuity related nonsense. I think some of the ER's for the more expensive funds topped out around 5%. When I left there was a 7% (If I remember correctly, might have been 9) surrender charge which I grudgingly paid to roll it into an IRA. I had no choice in the matter so I couldn't avoid it but you do so stay far, far away.

Your story tops them all! Close enconter of the first kind like someone may say. BTW, for the first meeting the AXA reps came at 6 pm, for this follow up meeting they asked to come at 11:30 AM Friday. Are we densed or are they expecting to be fed too?

[brick-house]

gallo 146 wrote:

Are we densed or are they expecting to be fed too?

Sharks like chum! Can't wait to hear about the meeting. The excellent comments posted here should prepare you for the jedi mind tricks that this salesman will employ.

[actuary]

Most likely, the advisor will try to sell you the variable annuity with GMIB rider if you are over 45 years old. This comes with very high fees and the advisor usually earns 5%-7% commission of your initial investment amount and 1% for trailing addition. He will probably try to use the Guaranteed Minimum Income Benefit with step-up benefit rider to make everything look nice. Be aware of the fine prints and all the fees associated with the product. Every year, the typical charge is 1.3% M&E fee + 0.8% rider fee + mutual fund expense (0.64% to 2%).

[mephistophles]

I have often wondered if these church sponsored or affiliated financial programs were an attempt to "out" your assets.

The short answer is "yes." The long answer is "yes." It is typically a ruse based on the idea that with this church-sponsored financial planning it will enable you to free up money to increase your tithe to the church. It's all for God, and who can argue with that

[JW Nearly Retired]

thank you all for your insights i am going very prepared to my friday meeting

I think you are on a very slippery slope toward getting fleeced if you go to another meeting. Stay home. If someone from church asks why just say you heard enough to know you wanted no part of it.
JW

[gallo146]

thank you all for your insights i am going very prepared to my friday meeting

I think you are on a very slippery slope toward getting fleeced if you go to another meeting. Stay home. If someone from church asks why just say you heard enough to know you wanted no part of it.
JW

MY MEETING WITH AXA TODAY:
i was offered
- a g"guaranteed" minium income benefit at 5% with a contract fee of 2.9% and a 7 yrs declining back end fee of 7%
- also offerec a long term care insurance. Premium: $188/month
- and finally, an asset care "rollover IRA" at a guaranteed 4%

we gave them a hot meal and politely told them we would have to think about their products and as we told them from the start we wished they would have charged just for financial planning advice. CASE CLOSED

[dbr]

YOU gave them a hot meal? THEY are supposed to give you the free dinner

[fiddlestyx]

You can't be an advisor and be registered with FINRA?

That's a new one.

[pkcrafter]

fiddlestyx wrote:

You can't be an advisor and be registered with FINRA?

Yeah, you can be. But the predicted "advisor" suggestions make that a moot point.


Paul

[yobria]

we gave them a hot meal and politely told them we would have to think about their products and as we told them from the start we wished they would have charged just for financial planning advice. CASE CLOSED

You mean just charge by the hour like other honest services? Then how on earth are they going to extract $1000s in hidden fees, commissions, etc from your account?

Nick

[gallo146]

YOU gave them a hot meal? THEY are supposed to give you the free dinner

Psychologically, giving them a hot meal softens the blow when they get my "Dear John" telephone call. I have to see their faces again at church

[Taylor Larimore]

Hi Gallo:

It appears your appointment concluded OK.. Financial salespeople can be very persuasive. Financial products can be very complex and often impossible to understand. The worst are designed that way. Agents are taught answers for every objection.

I once allowed two AX salesman to try to sell us an "Equitable accumulator plus variable deferred annuity" which they called "A guaranteed lifetime income investment." Sounds great! I never told them that I was a former insurance salesman and co-author of a book which included a chapter about annuities.

They were slick. They told us all the possible benefits which sounded wonderful. They failed to mention the downsides which were more than the benefits. They were clueless about the tax ramifications.

I asked to see the Prospectus which they conveniently did not have. I insisted that we would not buy without it. I received it in the mail with request for another appointment.

The Prospectus, which I still have, is 176 pages of legal gobbledegook. Needless to say, we did not agree to another appointment.

Jane Bryant Quinn wrote:

You shouldn't buy anything too complex to explain to the average 12-year old.

Good advice!

[fiddlestyx]

You mean just charge by the hour like other honest services?

I'm not a huge fan of AXA (though the AXA agent who serviced my former employer was terrific). But this notion that anything in financial services must be charged 'by the hour' is just ridiculous.

Ever bought a decent suit? Do you buy a suit by the hour? No. You buy a suit. The guy selling it to you earns a commission by adding value - making sure the suit matches your requirements, is well-tailored, is ready on time, ensures your questions are answered, gets your shoes shined, and works hard to earn your referrals because he adds value to the sale.

Is the suit salesman dishonest because he earns a commission on the sale? No. That's just absurd.

Some people do fine paying a fee. Other people are much better off paying a commission. Having covered both the fee-only world and the commissioned world as a journalist, I would suggest that the further downmarket you go, the better off the client is with the good commissionable advisor. Economies of scale being what they are, and fee-only schedules being what they are, working families on tight budgets can't afford several appointments with a fee-only practitioner to discuss investing, retirement, insurance, college planning, and still execute what they need to do.

This presumes the advisor has done his or her homework, adds value to the sale and it's not limited to a transaction. But such advisors won't generate referrals and don't last long in the business. That's not how suits are sold, either.

[gallo146]

Hi Gallo:

It appears your appointment concluded OK.. Financial salespeople can be very persuasive. Financial products can be very complex and often impossible to understand. The worst are designed that way. Agents are taught answers for every objection.

I once allowed two AX salesman to try to sell us an "Equitable accumulator plus variable deferred annuity" which they called "A guaranteed lifetime income investment." Sounds great! I never told them that I was a former insurance salesman and co-author of a book which included a chapter about annuities.

They were slick. They told us all the possible benefits which sounded wonderful. They failed to mention the downsides which were more than the benefits. They were clueless about the tax ramifications.

I asked to see the Prospectus which they conveniently did not have. I insisted that we would not buy without it. I received it in the mail with request for another appointment.

The Prospectus, which I still have, is 176 pages of legal gobbledegook. Needless to say, we did not agree to another appointment.

Jane Bryant Quinn wrote:

You shouldn't buy anything too complex to explain to the average 12-year old.

Good advice!

THanks Taylor,
i was armed with my good old 1978 Texas Instrument Business calculator and they were suprised when i brought everything back to Present Value. Anyway they did say they charge 3% EVERY YEAR. plus any % on load funds that I CHoose. Of course i got a guarantee 5% no matter what. Probably i can do better insulating my home or buying bulk down at Cosco. it was a nice experience and treat them nicely since they have to make a living. <Shrugs>

[yobria]

You mean just charge by the hour like other honest services?

I'm not a huge fan of AXA (though the AXA agent who serviced my former employer was terrific). But this notion that anything in financial services must be charged 'by the hour' is just ridiculous.
Ever bought a decent suit? Do you buy a suit by the hour? No. You buy a suit. The guy selling it to you earns a commission by adding value - making sure the suit matches your requirements, is well-tailored, is ready on time, ensures your questions are answered, gets your shoes shined, and works hard to earn your referrals because he adds value to the sale.

If you reread my post you’ll see I was discussing specifically, to requote, "financial planning advice". Not suits or cars or any other product, but a service. So let’s stick to the topic.

Some people do fine paying a fee. Other people are much better off paying a commission. Having covered both the fee-only world and the commissioned world as a journalist, I would suggest that the further downmarket you go, the better off the client is with the good commissionable advisor.

Only a financial products salesman would make such a claim, which, judging by your other posts here, is exactly what you are.

Hundreds of people allowing “downmarket”, commission based salespeople to abuse their wealth have posted pleas for help on this and the old Diehards board over the past 10 years. Every single one would have been better off with a few hours with an unbiased hourly financial advisor directing them to index funds and other low fee products, not high fee commissions based ones. The transcripts are here for all to see.

Nick

[dbr]

I really don't think the issue is method of pay but rather the unfortunate fact that most financial services are not delivered in the interests of the client. In addition it is inescapable that virtually no one can earn an acceptable living charging no more than people can afford to pay for this type service.

[malloc]

Leonard wrote

Also, unfortunately, even when you don't become a client, the AXA advisor can truthfully (but misleadingly) tell other members of the church that he has "Already met with gallo146 and his family". The advisor could use that to mislead other members in to thinking they are already doing financial services for you and other church members, implying credibility and background within the church community that is not there.

This was my experience also, although it was at work not church.
I met with the rep (not AXA) after I knew a little, just to see what he would say.
It was fun, (he quickly realized I was asking too many good questions and I already knew the correct answers).

Then I found he was using my name in speaking with others......
I told him to stop, and told many others I would never work with this fellow.
I probably sounded weird to my friends he had not yet approached - but I was outraged that he would use my name to sell his junk.

[gallo146]

Leonard wrote

Also, unfortunately, even when you don't become a client, the AXA advisor can truthfully (but misleadingly) tell other members of the church that he has "Already met with gallo146 and his family". The advisor could use that to mislead other members in to thinking they are already doing financial services for you and other church members, implying credibility and background within the church community that is not there.

This was my experience also, although it was at work not church.
I met with the rep (not AXA) after I knew a little, just to see what he would say.
It was fun, (he quickly realized I was asking too many good questions and I already knew the correct answers).

Then I found he was using my name in speaking with others......
I told him to stop, and told many others I would never work with this fellow.
I probably sounded weird to my friends he had not yet approached - but I was outraged that he would use my name to sell his junk.

Probably the others should have checked with you to make sure about you being referenced.....

[yobria]

I really don't think the issue is method of pay but rather the unfortunate fact that most financial services are not delivered in the interests of the client.

Just reading the book Freakonomics, which notes that the entire field of economics is really just the study of incentives.

I think most people would agree that an advisor who only provides for his family if he pushes high fee products has different incentives than one who gets paid by the hour.

In addition it is inescapable that virtually no one can earn an acceptable living charging no more than people can afford to pay for this type service.

Sure they can, if they stick to higher wealth clients - it's just that there's a class of people for which consuming a lot of planning doesn't make sense. Good thing there are so many great investing books out there. It aint rocket science.

Nick

[679932]

Are you really surprised that advisors in the financial services industry are sales people? Have you noticed that when you go to a chiropractor he says the problem is in your back and you'll need several visits? And if you went to a surgeon for a medical issue he will recommend surgery? Thats how the world goes around. Unless you work for the government, a charity or don't work at all, someone in your company is a SALESPERSON... So let's be honest. A sales person's job is to sell what's in his briefcase. He will always accentuate the positive, negate the negative and find a way for his product to fit your situation.

[likegarden]

I would not mind meeting a salesperson selling good wares and buying those from him. I would love to meet salespersons from Vanguard, Fidelity or similar firms. I buy also cars from salespersons without problems because the characteristics of cars are well publicized and can be easily judged by the public.

This is very different with some financial products and their salespersons which hide performance and fees, and purchasing those products can be very expensive to the investor over many years. Buying a bad car might set you back by a few thousand $. But buying bad loaded mutual funds and annuities and expensive services might cost you 10 times as much, and might set you back for life. There is the difference, and salespersons will know that, and some still do it.

[679932]

Sounds like you've been "Bernd" in the past. I guess what we can all do is be wise with our money. Doublecheck what we've been told, use a multitude of counselors, and try to make the best decision. The financial services industry is probably not any different than other industries that employ sales people. Unfortunatley, everyone is looking our for themselves - physicians, lawyers, Avon reps, Marine recruiters, grocery store owners, etc. For those latin buffs "Caveat Emptor".

[679932]

We all know that Vanguard is a household name. But if they were the perfect solution in all situations, there would be no competition anymore, no other company in the industry. Let's be wise, we all know "one size fits all" doesn't always fit, thats why there are custom taylors.

[jimbone]

I almost made a mistake with AXA. Thankfully I was able to find this forum before getting too far into it.

In the words of Monty Python, "Run away! Run away!".

[Alex Frakt]

We all know that Vanguard is a household name. But if they were the perfect solution in all situations, there would be no competition anymore, no other company in the industry. Let's be wise, we all know "one size fits all" doesn't always fit, thats why there are custom taylors.

I'm not following you here. Your point is that other fund companies must be better than Vanguard at something or they wouldn't exist? If this is what you are saying, then you need to understand that all the other companies need to be better at to continue to exist is advertising or giving kickbacks to intermediaries - whether they be commissioned salesmen or selection committees of businesses that provide a 401(k) plan.

OTOH, when it comes to non-captured individual investors, Vanguard dominates the field in terms of incoming contributions. Using your logic, Vanguard must therefore be the best solution for most investors.

Note that I am not saying this is the way things really are, I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic of the quoted statement.

[Dingle]

Google AXA advisors scam. Scary stuff!

I don't know anything about them.

You don't know anything about them but believe everything about them you read on the internet?

Now that is scary stuff!!!

The issue is you have come to an anti-adviser/anti-financial salesman (whatever you want to call it) website and are expecting an objective opinion. The opinions here are just as biased (in the other direction) as this salesmans opinions. IMO unbiased opinions lie somewhere in the middle.

[dratkinson]

Google AXA advisors scam. Scary stuff!

I don't know anything about them.

You don't know anything about them but believe everything about them you read on the internet?

Now that is scary stuff!!!

The issue is you have come to an anti-adviser/anti-financial salesman (whatever you want to call it) website and are expecting an objective opinion. The opinions here are just as biased (in the other direction) as this salesmans opinions. IMO unbiased opinions lie somewhere in the middle.

I politely disagree. I have no direct experience with either AXA or Bernie Madoff, but believe enough of what I've read/heard to know I want to avoid all like them. I want to be forewarned and thank all who take the time to inform me.


<mild rant warning>

Between the benefits of sugar and arsenic, the unbiased middle opinion is... to consume a little of both?

I confess, I've been burned more than once and now paint all financial salesmen with the same brush and "... it doesn't take me log to look at a hot horseshoe."

If you have never gone this route and never been bitten, you are well-advised to not poo-poo the advice of those who have. There is no middle ground between good and evil. It should be apparent that any compromise with evil results in evil winning.

Dingle, do you have some current enduring relationship was a compensated investments salesman/company which has benefited you MORE than them and thereby justifies your take-the-middle-ground opinion that they are there for YOUR benefit first, and not their's? If not, then why the presumption they work for YOUR best interest, first? Why take a position against the best advice of those here with direct experience? (RQ)

Example: I'm sister's son is a stockbroker and a wonderful person. Still I sent her the BH's guide to investing advise her against investing with him. It hasn't worked yet and probably never will. I also ignore all of her "advice" about the good things he is doing for her. I'm just oppositional, I guess.

Example: The BHs advice is the SWR is 4%. My neighbor's FA says the SWR is 5%. Why the difference? It justifies his 1% AUM fee. If he were to tell them his fee puts them over-budget (based on best SWR advice) and is running them out of money, they would be very worried and need to look into a reverse mortgage to make up the difference.

Please understand, I (or the BHs) will not stop anyone from investing with AXA. We will tell you of our experiences, if we have them (above), or research the results of others and pass it along. Nothing more. You make up you own mind.

I am not a herpetologist, but do know enough that my neighbor calls me to relocate garter snakes from their yard. (Some irrational phobia.) If you can not tell the difference between a docile garter snake and the other crawling nasties, my only safe advice to anyone who will listen is to leave ALL snakes alone. This same advice goes for ALL compensated FAs---they are not safe to be handled by novices. This advice is best-intentioned, and should only be ignored by those capable of withstanding the consequences.



And for the record, responding to an above post, Vanguard does not have salesmen. If you want to buy a Vanguard product, you must go to them. Someone will describe for you their products/services. If you want to buy... that's okay. If you don't want to buy... that's okay, too. No Vanguard employee goes hungry if you don't buy. That's the big difference between Vanguard and compensated FAs.



Vanguard and this website (the Bogleheads) do not exist as an alternative academic hypothesis/opinion to those expressed by compensated FAs. Instead they exist as a refuge for those fleeing from them.

There is no middle ground, as there can be no compromise with evil. It is better to avoid such if possible, or escape as soon as you can.

<end rant>

Thanks, I.. I feel much better now.

[synergy]

I am a recovering AXAholic. A little research will reveal that they are not in the investor's interest. As others have noted, run don't walk away.

[fishndoc]

We all know that Vanguard is a household name. But if they were the perfect solution in all situations, there would be no competition anymore, no other company in the industry. Let's be wise, we all know "one size fits all" doesn't always fit, thats why there are custom taylors.

I believe lowest costs, excellent products, and honest customer service really is "one size fits all".
Probably the only people who disagree make their living trying to compete against Vanguard, and have to spend their time tying to explain why they have to charge more for a product that is at best the same, and usually worse.

[Dingle]

Google AXA advisors scam. Scary stuff!

I don't know anything about them.

You don't know anything about them but believe everything about them you read on the internet?

Now that is scary stuff!!!

The issue is you have come to an anti-adviser/anti-financial salesman (whatever you want to call it) website and are expecting an objective opinion. The opinions here are just as biased (in the other direction) as this salesmans opinions. IMO unbiased opinions lie somewhere in the middle.

I politely disagree. I have no direct experience with either AXA or Bernie Madoff, but believe enough of what I've read/heard to know I want to avoid all like them. I want to be forewarned and thank all who take the time to inform me.


<mild>

Between the benefits of sugar and arsenic, the unbiased middle opinion is... to consume a little of both?

I confess, I've been burned more than once and now paint all financial salesmen with the same brush and "... it doesn't take me log to look at a hot horseshoe."

If you have never gone this route and never been bitten, you are well-advised to not poop-poop the advice of those who have. There is no middle ground between good and evil. It should be apparent that any compromise with evil results in evil winning.

Dingle, do you have some current enduring relationship was a compensated investments salesman/company which has benefited you MORE than them and thereby justifies your take-the-middle-ground opinion that they are there for YOUR benefit first, and not there's? If not, then why the presumption they work for YOUR best interest, first? Why go against the best advice of those here with that experience? (RQ)

Please understand, I (or the BHs) will not stop you/anyone from investing with AXA. We will tell you of our experiences, if we have them (above), or research the results of others and pass it along. Nothing more. You make up you own mind.

I am not a herpetologist, but do know enough that my neighbor calls me to relocate garter snakes from her yard---some irrational phobia. If you can not tell the difference between a docile garter snake and the other crawling nasties, my only safe advice to anyone is to leave ALL snakes alone. This same advice goes for all compensated FAs---they are not safe to be handled by novices.



And for the record, responding to an above post, Vanguard does not have salesmen. If you want to buy a Vanguard product, you must go to them. Someone will describe for you their products/services. If you want to buy... that's okay. If you don't want to buy... that's okay, too. No Vanguard employee goes hungry if you don't buy.



Vanguard and this website (the Bogleheads) do not exist as an alternative academic hypothesis/opinion to those expressed by compensated FAs, instead they exist as a refuge for those fleeing from them.

<end>

Thanks, I feel much better now.

I'm sorry, I don't even know where to begin in responding to this.

[dratkinson]

...
I'm sorry, I don't even know where to begin in responding to this.

No response necessary. Probably an over-reaction on my part. Mea culpa.

May your investing life remain boring and blissfully free of bad investment advice.