Bogleheads

[mathwhiz]

I know there are a lot of doctors here so I'm curious about their opinion, but this seems to be one of the hot jobs for the future.

I have younger relatives interested in medical careers and this seems to be a good field to advise them to get into. Average salaries are high - $75k-$90k or higher in a hospital setting. Quality of life is high. You can work 40 hours a week in private practice. Stress is lower. You don't have to go through med school and have the debt or all the responsibilities of a doctor. You can apparently become a PA with a 2-3 year master's degree.

[OAG]

I have two daughters. One is an RN (4 Year BSN) and one is a PA running a small office (under the supervision of a MD). Both are happy with their decisions. The PA was able to go from RN (4 Year BSN) to PA while raising her family (working as an RN part-time) and now has the time to devote to the profession. From a parenting angle I suppose it was less expensive but the important thing is that they got to do what they wanted to do. I doubt they ever earned the numbers you mentioned but they could do well. We also have four MD's in the immediate family (BTW I am not one of them) and they all were able to graduate, more or less, debt free. So it can be done with a lot of personal work either way. Depends, IMHO, like most thing in life, on motivation.
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OAG=Old Army Guy. Retired from USA (US Army) in 1979.

[pochax]

I would agree that a NP (Nurse practitioner) or PA (Physician Asst) can be good jobs, but from my own interactions with them, they can get stressful depending on the particular position you get.

If you have decided that the debt/amount of time for training for an MD is not in your future, i would consider each of these possibilities (all carry pretty above average salaries although they require some post-undergrad training):
1) Pharmacist - not just retail or hospital but healthcare/ pharmaceutical industry can utilize expertise as well
2) CRNA (Nurse anesthetist) - these are RNs who go through a little bit of extra training but are basically the eyes/ears for the anesthesiologists in the operating room. they can make $100-120k easily.
3) optometry - still requires 3-4 yrs grad school
4) dentistry - still requires 4 yrs grad school (big time salary - more than many non-surgical MDs)

[dogdoc83]

I'd like to second the idea of your daughter considering pharmacy school. It is almost always a 6 year program of 2 years of pre-pharmacy and 4 years of professional school, from which they graduate with a Doctor of Pharmacy, or PharmD. Starting jobs in retail are often over 100k, but there are many other areas as well. There are also schools which offer conditional acceptance from high school, with no requirement to take the qualifying exam, or PCAT.

[SurgPath]

[mickeyd]

The Army seems to employ a lot of PAs. I have been treated but a PA as my PCM for the last few years and have received care that is equal to any doctor that I have had in their system.
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regards,
mickeyd

In Dire Need of: Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money. (Not necessarily in that order)

[Christine_NM]

Stress may or may not be lower for PA's than MD's, but certainly any healthcare profession has a higher chronic stress level than nonmedical professions.

Does anyone really work only 40 hours a week in a healthcare job? My hospital years are long past, but 56 hours was more the norm for me.

Almost as many years are needed for a PA as for an MD: a premed or nursing BS, few years job experience, and then 2-3 PA program. Not as expensive perhaps, but quite a long haul.

As a former RN I agree with SurgPath, do it because you really want to, not for money or job security. The money will seem like very little because the work you do to get it is quite difficult, ever-changing, and above-average stressful.

Mathwhiz, there's no free lunch in healthcare careers.
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Savor the moment.

[gasman]

[EmergDoc]

From an economic perspective, I think the RN degree is the way to go. Write your ticket to anywhere, retrain for a new specialty in just a few months, salaries that approach $100K in some specialties/some locations, and only requires a 4 year degree.
_________________
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy
4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

[fsrph]

[LH]

[LH]

[SurgPath]

[SurgPath]

[amber waters]

[Winthorpe]

[fsrph]

[waitforit]

To add insult, the quality of the graduates is also somewhat less than just a few years ago. Even the students nowadays are lacking work ethic and its not like I have been in the profession for a long time.

I would not advise anyone pursue pharmacy at this point unless they are wanting / willing to work outside of large urban / suburban areas. The jobs picture in urban setting is not going to improve anytime soon... colleges make a boatload of money educating pharmacists and expansion and new colleges are springing up everywhere.

[KyleAAA]

My 2 friends who are NP's make good money, but have irregular schedules and I doubt they'd say they live low-stress lives. Don't know any PA's, but I believe the primary difference is that NP's can practice under their own license and PA's can't, so an NP would be a more flexible choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Keltset]

[Cherokee8215]

This sort of reminds me of the situation for airline pilots. Back in the 1980s/early 1990s, they were in demand and made big money. I know my uncle was making well into the 6 figures when he retired in the late 1980s. Today's pilots make probably about the same amounts or less, not counting for inflation. Flight schools churned out pilots during the late 1990s/early 2000s, graduating pilots with big loan debt, and then the airline industry fell off a cliff after 9/11 and continues to consolidate. Now we have regional airline first officers making $23,000 a year in 2009 dollars and people begging for the job.

Back to pharmacy, I know several people I graduated college with 5+ years ago who are starting pharmacy school now (or have been in for a year or so) in order to make a total career change that they think will pay off big. Who knows.

[HearDoc]

[Fbone]

[EmergDoc]

[HearDoc]

[jimp]

A nurse practitioner / nurse anesthetist works under their own nursing license. This gives them the advantage of potential autonomy if they so desire. A PA is working under the license of the physician, and can never work alone/independently. Of course, most NP/CRNAs work in a collaborative relationship with physicians. Some states and hospital bylaws are strict and allow NP/CRNAs little independence, while other states require no physician "supervision" of nurse anesthetist (15 states.) So if you have a strong autonomous/ entrepreneurial streak go for nursing. There are many all CRNA groups that run hospital anesthesia departments, but mostly in rural areas.

With health care reform, hospital administrators will most likely look at costs, and will gravitate to the cheaper provider to oversee the bulk of its anesthesia needs.

[woof755]

[tibbitts]

I'm not a medical professional, and have also asked for advice here.

One factor that a lot of people here don't consider is minimizing the cost of failure. With any kind of degree or training, you have to consider the worst case of failing at the worst (most costly) possible time, and what your alternatives will be at that point, relative to other educational paths. If you follow a path where you pick up various certifications and licenses along the way, that can somewhat mitigate the cost of failure.

Paul

[HearDoc]

[Sonoran]

I'm not a medical doctor, but a doctor of pharmacy, so I guess that qualifies me to state my opinion.

Yep, both NPs and PAs are, and will be, hot jobs. But, I'd have to agree with EmergDoc that becoming an RN is the best value for your buck.

There's no "extra" tuition for nursing school, so one can graduate without being up to their eyeballs in debt if he/she goes to a public school.

Although RNs get paid pretty well now, with an aging population the demand for nurses will continue to rise more than other health care professionals, and their salaries should follow suit.

Having a BSN allows nurses to be eligible for NP and PA programs if they choose to further their careers, and will allow them to be much better practitioners if they choose that path. Who would you want as your health care provider, a PA/NP with a bachelors in history or one with a BSN?

Pharmacy? It's a good career, but pharmacy school is WAY expensive now and the job opportunities aren't as abundant as they used to be.
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Beware of little expenses. A small leak will sink a great ship - Benjamin Franklin

[arthurdawg]

PA school is a good option if you don't want to spend a decade plus of your life in med-school and residency training. I think there will be an increasing demand in the future as margins continue to tighten, particularly in primary care. You don't make the money that an MD might make, but you don't have to worry about most of the problems that MDs have to take care of as well.
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Current Portfolio: now ATTO sized!!!

VTSMX 25% / VBMFX 25% / VGSTX 20%
VISVX 15% / VGSIX 7.5% / VFSVX 7.5%

[ram]

I am an MD
1. There is no free lunch. Heath care jobs pay better than non healthcare because there is more headache/stress.
2. Within the healthcare industry let us define the best job as one which has the highest value for:
( Salary ) divided by ( headache/stress/responsibility/ likelyhood of getting sued).
3. Based on above formula I think best to worst is- Dentist, RN, NP, PA, Pharmacist, MD.
4. If main concern is the numerator then MD is best.
5. If main concern is authority then MD is best. One has to realize that authority/ independence will be directly proportional to liability.
6. IMO the worst downhill slide amongst these jobs in the next 10 yrs will be for MD
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Ram

[arthurdawg]

[Dynastar]

[Christine_NM]

Dynastar -

Thanks for the info. Optometry sounds pretty good. I was in ICU so 24/7 had to be covered and there was a constant need for overtime. That was actually OK because of the time-and-a-half $$ on evenings and nights and Saturdays, with double time $$ on Sundays and holidays. It's not really the best patient care though, to have chronically tired hospital staff.
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Savor the moment.

[SurgPath]

[Outside]

Since this is a topic I think about frequently, I felt compelled to reply.

I am an RN in the Emergency Department. My first year out of school I will make 80k - with minimal OT. I have 20k in loans from my BSN (this is on the high side, most of my co-workers have much less.

If I worked overtime I could make 100k+, but I prefer the work-life balance that working 3, 12 hour shifts per week provides.

The downside is that most RNs must work nights, weekends, holidays, days, evenings - but that's true for most health care careers.

I should add that I am an RN in California and we have the best pay and practice environment in the country.

Autonomy is definitely a consideration. As one would expect RN's have less autonomy and responsibility than MDs, NPs, and PAs. But I save lives every time I go to work and am an integral part of the resuscitation team (along with MDs, respiratory therapists, pharmacists, EMTs, and the secretarial staff). I am definitely not taking away anything from MDs, I respect their role and have a great working relationship with my ER MDs.

Another nice aspect of an RN degree is the ability to move to any city in the US at anytime and be able to get a job (assuming the RN in competent).

Additionally, several demographic and economic trends are converging to create even higher demand for nurses in the next 10,20,30,40 years making it a solid career path for the future.

Just to comment on a previous post: CRNAs require more than just "a little bit of extra training". These advanced practice nurses must have a 4 yr BSN, 1-4 of critical care experience, and then the extra 2-3 years of CRNA school (a masters degree). CRNA school is also highly selective, as a previous poster had mentioned. This career does not interest me (I like action), but I wanted to give a realistic representation of the training CRNAs must go through.

Just to add, I have a B.A. in history (it was my first degree). It cost me 27k in student loans and qualified me to do very little after graduation - it was a fun time though.

I do hope this thread does not develop into a debate about competency vs. training vs. experience vs. MD, PA, NP, CRNA (there are plenty of those on the web and they never end well) but instead focuses on the economics of different health care professions.

[SurgPath]

[pochax]