Help: TIAA-CREF 403b roll over to Vanguard IRA

[acegolfer]

I left my old job 18 months ago and I still have the employer plan 403(b) at TIAA-CREF. I want to rollover this TIAA 403(b) to Vanguard IRA. I have other 403(b) plans with my current employer at TIAA-CREF.

1. Any reason not to rollover?
2. How difficult is it to rollover?
3. Anything that I should be aware of?

[alec]

I left my old job 18 months ago and I still have the employer plan 403(b) at TIAA-CREF. I want to rollover this TIAA 403(b) to Vanguard IRA. I have other 403(b) plans with my current employer at TIAA-CREF.

1. Any reason not to rollover?

Not really since you have TIAA-CREF again, you likely have most of the same options that you had in your old 403(b). The IRA will allow you to buy things that your current or oldd 403(b) won't - like cheaper small caps, cheaper int'l, individual TIPS, etc.

2. How difficult is it to rollover?

In my experience, it's pretty easy from Vanguard's perspective. No idea how easy it is to deal w/ TC.

3. Anything that I should be aware of?

Make sure the money is sent directly to Vanguard and not sent to you. If you do receive some sort of check from TC, send the check to Vanguard without depositing it in your checking or savings accounts. If you deposit the check in your checking or savings accounts, you will incure taxes since the IRS considers that a distribution from the 403(b).

- Alec

[sscritic]

Make sure the money is sent directly to Vanguard and not sent to you. If you do receive some sort of check from TC, send the check to Vanguard without depositing it in your checking or savings accounts. If you deposit the check in your checking or savings accounts, you will incure taxes since the IRS considers that a distribution from the 403(b).

A 403(b) rollover is no different than any other tax-deferred rollover. You have 60 days to do the rollover. Cashing the check makes no difference. If you want, you can put the whole check in your checking account and use money from your money market account for the rollover. All that matters is the amount of money, not which account it went into or came out of.

HOW do you roll over?
A rollover occurs when you withdraw cash or other assets from one eligible retirement plan and contribute all or part of it within 60 days to another eligible retirement plan. ..

WHEN should you rollover?
You have 60 days from the date you receive a retirement plan distribution to roll it over. Remember that any distribution paid to you will already have a mandatory income tax withholding of 20%, even if you intend to roll it over later. If you do roll it over, and want to defer tax on the entire taxable portion, you will have to add funds from other sources equal to the 20% income tax withheld.

http://www.irs.gov/retirement/participa ... 27,00.html

You will have to pay taxes on the 20% if you don't add that amount to your rollover to make it "whole," e.g., if you get a $10000 distribution in the form of a check for $8000, you must add $2000 to make your rollover $10000. If you only rollover $8000, you will pay tax on the $2000 withheld and credited to your account at the IRS.

If you have after-tax contributions in your account, you must do a trustee to trustee rollover (with a few exceptions).

Note: You may be able to roll over the nontaxable part of a distribution to another qualified retirement plan or a §403(b) plan or to a traditional IRA. The transfer must be made either through a direct (trustee-to-trustee) rollover to a qualified retirement plan or a §403(b) plan that separately accounts for the taxable and nontaxable parts of the rollover or through a rollover to an IRA. Any taxable amount that is not rolled over must be included as income in the year of the distribution.

Ibid.

[DickBenson]

1. Any reason not to rollover?

3. Anything that I should be aware of?

Be sure that you understand the unique properties of the traditional account at TIAA (guaranteed minimum return, vintage system, history, etc.), and determine whither this account would be appropriate for your retirement portfolio.

Dick

[alec]

Make sure the money is sent directly to Vanguard and not sent to you. If you do receive some sort of check from TC, send the check to Vanguard without depositing it in your checking or savings accounts. If you deposit the check in your checking or savings accounts, you will incure taxes since the IRS considers that a distribution from the 403(b).

A 403(b) rollover is no different than any other tax-deferred rollover. You have 60 days to do the rollover. Cashing the check makes no difference. If you want, you can put the whole check in your checking account and use money from your money market account for the rollover. All that matters is the amount of money, not which account it went into or came out of.

thanks for the clarification.

[Lbill]

I've done rollovers from TIAA to Vanguard IRA. You need to contact TIAA and they'll send you a form to be filled out and returned with the appropriate information. You should set up your receiving IRA if it doesn't already exist. It is not mandatory, but it's probably a good idea to contact the receiving IRA custodian and advise them the rollover is coming. With a direct rollover, there's no tax consequences. You'll get the IRS paperwork from the recipient IRA custodian for filing your tax return. The only considerations I had were that TIAA has some investment options not available elsewhere. For example, the TIAA real estate account - not doing well lately but has been a real winner in the past. Also, TIAA Traditional. It is paying around 3%+ currently. If it is held in a Retirement Annuity, you can only withdraw from it over a 10-year period. But if it is held in a Supplemental Retirement Annuity it can be withdrawn or exchanged as a lump sum. Also, you might want to consider your access to TIAA lifetime annuities. You can still purchase an immediate annuity from TIAA with external funds, but I'm not sure if you have access to somewhat more attractive annuity options if you are using money invested in TIAA. Also, you can convert all your Traditional to a lifetime annuity as an option.

[the intruder]

[quote="Lbill"]I've done rollovers from TIAA to Vanguard IRA. You need to contact TIAA and they'll send you a form to be filled out and returned with the appropriate information. You should set up your receiving IRA if it doesn't already exist. It is not mandatory, but it's probably a good idea to contact the receiving IRA custodian and advise them the rollover is coming. With a direct rollover, there's no tax consequences. You'll get the IRS paperwork from the recipient IRA custodian for filing your tax return. The only considerations I had were that TIAA has some investment options not available elsewhere. For example, the TIAA real estate account - not doing well lately but has been a real winner in the past. Also, TIAA Traditional. It is paying around 3%+ currently. If it is held in a Retirement Annuity, you can only withdraw from it over a 10-year period. But if it is held in a Supplemental Retirement Annuity it can be withdrawn or exchanged as a lump sum. Also, you might want to consider your access to TIAA lifetime annuities. You can still purchase an immediate annuity from TIAA with external funds, but I'm not sure if you have access to somewhat more attractive annuity options if you are using money invested in TIAA. Also, you can convert all your Traditional to a lifetime annuity as an option.[/quote]


Lbill
Where did you get the idea that distributions from TIAA traditional can only be withdrawn over 10 years? If the funds are invested in a Group Retirement Annuity a lump sum may be elected within a certain time period (120 days?) after termination or retirement. If no election is made then it can only be withdrawn over 10 years or on a periodic basis. Some individual TIAA retirement annuity contracts only allow a lump sum distribution of 10% of the value when annuity benefits begin. There is no lump sum. SRAs are restricted to voluntary employee contributions and are completely liquid which is why the interest rate is lower than the other contracts.

[Lbill]

Where did you get the idea that distributions from TIAA traditional can only be withdrawn over 10 years?

I got the idea from TIAA. If that's wrong, I'd appreciate a link to the correct information.

[raywax]

Where did you get the idea that distributions from TIAA traditional can only be withdrawn over 10 years?

I got the idea from TIAA. If that's wrong, I'd appreciate a link to the correct information.

Lbill is correct IF the Traditional Account is held in a RA (Retirement Account) and incorrect if held in a SRA, GSRA and IRA. I am not sure if it is true or not if the Account is held in a GRA.

The process of moving Traditional Account money from an RA requires a TPA (Transition Payout Annuity) with TIAA and that will distribute the funds (and accumulated interest) in 10 annual distributions over a period of none years and one day.

From the SRA, GSRA and IRA Accounts the money can indeed be rolled over but as the OP has been advised in previous posts one must obtain the necessary forms from TIAA and they must be returned to TIAA. A phone call into the the TIAA Counseling Center will produce the necessary forms.

Ray

[the intruder]

If you go to the T-C web site and search for Reviewing Your TIAA-CREF Income Choices you will find that a lump sum withdrawal is permitted from the TIAA Traditional GRA within 120 days after termination of employment if a surrender charge is paid. If an election is not made within 120 days then the account balance can only be withdrawn in 10 installments. There are different rules for transferring the funds to the T-C real estate option or to CREF. The reason the OP could not get a lump sum withdrawal from a TIAA GRA to rollover to a Vangurad IRA is because he terminated 18 months ago, not because payments are only allowed in 10 installments.

raywax- did you mean nine years and a day? If you are referring to a RA which is an individual annuity contract with emplyer contributons there is no lump sum option because the contracts do not permit a lump sum payment.

[retiredjg]

In spite of the fact that you CAN get a check and then deposit it in a new IRA within 60 days, I would avoid that if possible.

To do that T/C has to withhold 20% in taxes, you have to make the fund "whole" to avoid a penalty if you are underage and to avoid taxes on the withheld amount if you are of age, and then you have to get your tax withholding back without earning anything on it. At least, I think that is how it goes. (And if somehow you accidently miss the 60 day deadline, all heck happens?)

I think a trustee to trustee transfer is much more preferable. You sign papers, the money moves. End of story.

I've made transfers (not using T/C) and there is not much to it. I'm sure something goes wrong occasionally, but they do this thousands of times a day. I'm sure that, in general, it is very routine.

I have heard that it goes better if the new custodian "pulls" the account over rather than the old custodian "pushing" it over. You might ask both custodians how it best works.

[sscritic]

Note to readers:

Lbill used the term Retirement Annuity, using capital letters. Capital letters are used for proper nouns. At TIAA, a Retirement Annuity is a specific type of retirement annuity. An SRA is another specific type of retirement annuity, but an SRA is not an RA. Neither is a GRA.

When Lbill wrote "if it [TIAA Traditional] is held in a Retirement Annuity, you can only withdraw from it over a 10-year period.," he made a correct statement in my opinion. The truth of other statements about other specific types of retirement annuities have no relevance to the truth of Lbill's statement about Retirement Annuities.

[Lbill]

From TIAA website:

The TIAA Traditional Account is a guaranteed contract backed by the claims-paying ability of TIAA. Part of what allows us to guarantee principal and interest is your promise not to take all your funds from the account at once. For Retirement and Group Retirement Annuities, transfers and withdrawals from TIAA Traditional can be scheduled via a Transfer Payout Annuity, where you receive your funds over a 10-year period, during which the balance remaining in the account continues to receive interest.

http://www.tiaa-cref.org/products/retir ... index.html

I wasn't able to find the difference between an RA (Retirement Annuity) and GRA (Group Retirement Annuity), but it appears that you can only take money out of Traditional in either one via a 10-year Transfer Payout Annuity (TPA). I find nothing about taking it as a lump sum. You can take lump sum transfers or withdrawals from Traditional in a GRSA (Group Supplemental Retirement Annuity). You earn a lower interest rate in Traditional in a GRSA in exchange.

[raywax]

It can be done. The reason I said I did not know is because I never had one and I did not remember the details and I still do not. But it can be done within a specified time period of an event that allows it. My problem was and still is I do not remember if it is possible after termination with the employer or upon retirement and in addition I do not remember what happens when one is under 59.5 years of age. But it certainly is allowed. In addition there is a fee and I don't remember what it is though I think it is 2% of the value of the account.

My advice to anyone who has such questions is to phone the TIAA-CREF Counseling Center; they do know the rules for their accounts. Granted the devil is in the detail and with T-C Retirement Accounts of any and all sorts the details lie in the mater contract between the employer and T-C, and the individual participant has no access (that I am aware of) to this information. However, the T-C counselor does and they are trained to examine the master contract before providing a definitive answer to such a query.

Let me qualify the above, the information may be in the individual contract provided to the T-C participant. Again I am not sure if it is.

Ray

[Lbill]

raywax is correct. The only way to make sure is to call TIAA and get it from the horse's mouth. But I'd also ask the representative for something written - they can give you a link for a document download or provide something via email. It's not unheard of that a random rep might give you incorrect info over the phone, and I'd want to be 100% certain about being able to make a lump sum transfer or withdrawal out of Traditional. It's also the case that your employer plan might or might not allow this, since plan rules can differ across employers. A rep can check the provisions of your particular plan.

[House Blend]

I wasn't able to find the difference between an RA (Retirement Annuity) and GRA (Group Retirement Annuity), but it appears that you can only take money out of Traditional in either one via a 10-year Transfer Payout Annuity (TPA). I find nothing about taking it as a lump sum. You can take lump sum transfers or withdrawals from Traditional in a GRSA (Group Supplemental Retirement Annuity). You earn a lower interest rate in Traditional in a GRSA in exchange.

Lbill,

If you read the fine print in the link below, you'll see this:

If you have a Group Retirement Annuity (GRA) contract, lump-sum withdrawals are available from the TIAA Traditional Annuity only within 120 days after termination of employment and are subject to a surrender charge. All other withdrawals and transfers to the Real Estate Account or to CREF must be spread over a ten-year period (five years for withdrawals after termination of employment).

Link: http://www.tiaa-cref.org/performance/retirement/profiles/tiaa_traditional_annuity.html

[raywax]

It is from: http://www.tiaa-cref.org/administrators ... trans.html

TIAA Traditional in GRAs can be moved in a lump sum (assuming cashability) if done within 120 days from the date of termination, subject to a 2.5% surrender charge. After the 120-day window has expired, TIAA Traditional can be moved over a five-year period.

Ray

[Lbill]

Thanks HouseBlend - you are not only a tasty drink, but you provide good information. Never had seen that before. Now, what is the diff between an RA and a GRA? Second question: if there is a surrender charge it might trim a lot off the effective interest rate you can earn in Traditional. When you take the 10-year TPA you will continue to earn the guaranteed interest in Traditional for the remaining balances until it is completely withdrawn. Depending on when your deposits to Traditional were made, that can be a pretty good rate of interest compared to what you can get now. I'd want to know how that surrender charge is calculated.

[Lbill]

raywax beat me to the punch. His/her link seems to answer most of the questions I posed and explains how you can go online to see the status of your Traditional and how it can be withdrawn.

[acegolfer]

It is from: http://www.tiaa-cref.org/administrators ... trans.html

TIAA Traditional in GRAs can be moved in a lump sum (assuming cashability) if done within 120 days from the date of termination, subject to a 2.5% surrender charge. After the 120-day window has expired, TIAA Traditional can be moved over a five-year period.

Ray

Thanks. Here's a paragraph from the document.

The employee can see how much he/she may rollover on-line. They need to log into their accounts and select "Make Withdrawals" from the right-hand column menu of the "Welcome..." screen. He/She will see their accumulations and the amounts available for withdrawal/rollover for each account. Click on "See Cash Rules" to read more about how withdrawals/rollovers are governed for each of the accounts. The system will allow them to rollover to an IRA.

I just checked how much I can rollover and I see the full amount. But when I proceed to withdraw directly for rollover to Vanguard IRA, I got a message to call T/C because the maximum one time payment is $50k.

[grabiner]

2. How difficult is it to rollover?

In my experience, it's pretty easy from Vanguard's perspective. No idea how easy it is to deal w/ TC.

It's easy to deal with TIAA-CREF as well, but you have to deal with the benefits office at the institution which held the account. I have had several TIAA-CREF plans, and most of them rolled over quickly, but one required that I send a form certifying either that I wasn't married or my spouse consented to the rollover, and another one took two months to process. I also had one plan that did not allow withdrawal of employer contributions until age 55, even after I had left the institution.

[Lbill]

grabiner - Yeh, that is true about dealing with your employer plan. Like you I have multiple plans with different employers. Some are quite easy to deal with and others are a pain in the watsis. I found out that once you have done a rollover out of TIAA from a plan, they have a record of having all the appropriate dotted i's and crossed t's from that employer plan. It might be a good idea for some to do small rollovers to get all this in place, which will facilitate later rollovers w/o the delays involved in getting the appropriate paperwork completed.

[raywax]

2. How difficult is it to rollover?

(some text deleted)

It's easy to deal with TIAA-CREF as well, but you have to deal with the benefits office at the institution which held the account. I have had several TIAA-CREF plans, and most of them rolled over quickly, but one required that I send a form certifying either that I wasn't married or my spouse consented to the rollover, and another one took two months to process. (more text deleted).

In my experience you only have to complete the form certifying one's marital status once (unless that has changed). Thereafter you simply write in "On File" in the appropriate section of the T-C form.

As to possible problems with employers benefit office I never ran into that because I was always employed by the same University system. If you have T-C retirement plans from more than one former employer that could well and probably is true but even then it may not apply to all former employers.

Ray

[second-guesser]

For anyone reading this that is five years away from retirement that has tiaa traditional in a 403-B and wants to be able to obtain your funds ;might consider doing what my wife is doing. She is allowed to transfer 20 % per year for five years to a stock , bond , or money market account. She is doing the same thing with an ING account. Each 403-B may be different so obviously check with tiaa if this is allowed. This plan allows her do do whatever she wants with her money on retirement and not have to wait for several years to have complete control of her funds.

S-G

[raywax]

For anyone reading this that is five years away from retirement that has tiaa traditional in a 403-B and wants to be able to obtain your funds ;might consider doing what my wife is doing. She is allowed to transfer 20 % per year for five years to a stock , bond , or money market account. She is doing the same thing with an ING account. Each 403-B may be different so obviously check with tiaa if this is allowed. This plan allows her do do whatever she wants with her money on retirement and not have to wait for several years to have complete control of her funds.

S-G

This goes beyond my knowledge of TIAA-CREF transfers as while I have seen reference to it in T-C documents it was not in effect when I retired. It may well be as a result of the Federal regulations of 403-b which were modified, IIRC fairly recently. Having said this and for the purpose of clarification, not for disagreement with the poster, I would note that the TIAA Traditional Account is neither a stock, bond or money market account. It is a Guaranteed Variable Annuity issued by TIAA to the participant. Having said all of this, I do think this is correct but if this is something anyone who is seriously interested in using/doing should confirm with TIAA for her/his account.

Ray

[the intruder]

[quote="Lbill"]Thanks HouseBlend - you are not only a tasty drink, but you provide good information. Never had seen that before. Now, what is the diff between an RA and a GRA? Second question: if there is a surrender charge it might trim a lot off the effective interest rate you can earn in Traditional. When you take the 10-year TPA you will continue to earn the guaranteed interest in Traditional for the remaining balances until it is completely withdrawn. Depending on when your deposits to Traditional were made, that can be a pretty good rate of interest compared to what you can get now. I'd want to know how that surrender charge is calculated.[/quote]

The RA is an individual annuity contract that is issued to and owned by the employee and benefits are 100% vested. The contributions can be made by any emplyer who wishes to provide 403b benefits. RAs have no cash surrender value for the annuity benefits.
The GRA is a group annuity contract that is issued to the employer and provides for a one time lump sum cashout within 120 days after termination. The GRA allows deferred vesting in the benefits if the plan so provides. RAs and GRAs also exist for CREF benefits.

CREF is regulated as a mutual fund. TIAA is regulated as an insurance company. TIAA issues only fixed annuty contracts that provide a guranateed level benefit. CREF provides a variable annuity even though it is not an insurance company.

[sscritic]

[quote="the intruder"][quote="Lbill"]Thanks HouseBlend - you are not only a tasty drink, but you provide good information. Never had seen that before. Now, what is the diff between an RA and a GRA? Second question: if there is a surrender charge it might trim a lot off the effective interest rate you can earn in Traditional. When you take the 10-year TPA you will continue to earn the guaranteed interest in Traditional for the remaining balances until it is completely withdrawn. Depending on when your deposits to Traditional were made, that can be a pretty good rate of interest compared to what you can get now. I'd want to know how that surrender charge is calculated.[/quote]

CREF is regulated as a mutual fund. TIAA is regulated as an insurance company. TIAA issues only fixed annuty contracts that provide a guranateed level benefit. CREF provides a variable annuity even though it is not an insurance company.[/quote]

Intruder:
I quoted your quote above to point out that you don't use quotes correctly. I have observed the same problem in your posts in other threads. I believe it is because you have checked "disable BBCode in this post," which disables the correct interpretation of the quote code. I have deliberately disabled BBCode for this post to illustrate what a mess this makes; the result is very difficult to read. Please do not disable BBCode when posting quotes. Please use the Preview button to see what your post will look like to others before posting (perhaps you already do and are happy with the results).

As to your statement about TIAA: the TIAA Real Estate Account is not a fixed annuity; it is a variable annuity issued by TIAA.

[the intruder]

Because the TIAA RE Account is separate account of TIAA, it is not a an insured benefit guaranteed by TIAA.

[Lbill]

raywax wrote:

In my experience you only have to complete the form certifying one's marital status once (unless that has changed). Thereafter you simply write in "On File" in the appropriate section of the T-C form.

I believe there may be additional documentation required from some employers, as well as the marital status documentation you mentioned. For example, some plans require that the plan administrator for your employer certify the year that you left employment, others do not. In any event, once you have jumped through all the hoops and done a rollover from your plan(s), you can subsequently write "On File" on future rollover applications, as I have done.

[raywax]

raywax wrote:

In my experience you only have to complete the form certifying one's marital status once (unless that has changed). Thereafter you simply write in "On File" in the appropriate section of the T-C form.

I believe there may be additional documentation required from some employers, as well as the marital status documentation you mentioned. For example, some plans require that the plan administrator for your employer certify the year that you left employment, others do not. In any event, once you have jumped through all the hoops and done a rollover from your plan(s), you can subsequently write "On File" on future rollover applications, as I have done.

I agree completely. Many of the "problems" people have with T-C are a result of details in the master contract of the agency that created the plan with T-C. And when one has moved two or more times these problems likely accumulate and become even more confusing.

Ray

[acegolfer]

I'm the OP and it turns out some paper work is needed to be mailed to T/C because

1. withdrawal is more than 50k
2. require signature from previous employer to verify the termination date.

I found having a 3-way conference call with Vanguard and TIAA-CREF is the most efficient way. Call Vanguard to set up the rollover IRA account, then have them make a conference call to T/C.

I know it's case by case depending on the employer, but in my case, I can rollover 100% without any penalty or surrender fees.

[second-guesser]

Raywax said above that he is unsure if money can be moved from TIAA Traditional to bond , stock, or money markets accounts; he could not when he retired. Well my wife is now transferring 20% of her traditional per year to a money market account at both TIAA and ING. She was told she could transfer to a stock or bond account as well. She has done this for the past three years and she is approximately two years from retirement.Different plans may have different requirements so one should check with TIAA.Maybe there is not a great advantage of doing this but she didn't like not having control of her money. For example when money is tied up in Traditional Accounts , one is not allowed to transfer from one company to another prior to retirement. Also Traditional rules seem overly complicated, why not simplify matters prior to retirement?

[raywax]

Raywax said above that he is unsure if money can be moved from TIAA Traditional to bond , stock, or money markets accounts; he could not when he retired. Well my wife is now transferring 20% of her traditional per year to a money market account at both TIAA and ING. She was told she could transfer to a stock or bond account as well. She has done this for the past three years and she is approximately two years from retirement.Different plans may have different requirements so one should check with TIAA.Maybe there is not a great advantage of doing this but she didn't like not having control of her money. For example when money is tied up in Traditional Accounts , one is not allowed to transfer from one company to another prior to retirement. Also Traditional rules seem overly complicated, why not simplify matters prior to retirement?

You left out that I also said this - Having said all of this, I do think this is correct.

Ray

[second-guesser]

raywax- I misread your blog. I thought you said I think this is not correct.
sorry my mistake
S-G