Bogleheads

[ironmanba]

So my wife has a 99' VW Beetle that just topped 100,000 miles. Our plan had been to keep it for another two years, when our awful commute should hopefully shorten and our salaries should hopefully rise nicely. When taking it for routine service, the service guy mentioned that we should get the timing belt and water pump replaced as its indicated every 60,000 miles or so. To my knowledge, this hasn't ever been done and in talking with him, those parts can blow at any point, which would result in me having to get a new engine.

Anyway, parts and labor will cost anywhere from 750 - 1100 dollars (repair shop vs. dealership). A quick edmunds.com search shows that our car (which is only in average condition... has some wear and tear) is only valued at like 2,000 to 2500 give or take an extra 500 bucks or so.

Thus, my question... does it make more sense to make the repair and cross our fingers that nothing else blows and we can continue on our path of selling in two years or so. Or, should we roll the dice, acknowledge that the repair is almost half of what the car is worth and drive it until it stops on the highway? The ability to get more for our car on trade in or what have you is also something to consider.

Right now, we are set on paying for a new car in full unless we can find a 0% financing offer (this is how it would be whether we buy now or later). We're both young (27) and our finances are such that we have a nice retirement nest saved already but the remainder of our savings is ~ a 9 month emergency fund. If we buy the type of car we're planning on (small SUV in anticipation of kids), it will likely whittle our emergency/available cash fund to 1-2 months of expenses. Our jobs are set in stone (medical residents) and wife's in the military (thus job security afterward) but it scares me to only have a couple thousand bucks in the bank.

My gut wants to roll the dice and buy a car in 2 yrs when our finances can easily take the hit and we're not putting 60 miles a day on it w/commute. Yet, I obviously don't want my wife's engine to give out on the highway and cause problems as well as effectively totaling the vehicle, thus no resale.

Sorry for the long drivel... thoughts?

[medgar]

Ironmamba,

I would just do routine repairs. I don't own a VW anymore, but water pump doesn't sound like a routine repair part. The timing belt is.

100,000 miles is not a lot for cars now. My VW rabbit was at 200,000 then I sold it. Pick your deal. One time repair charge of $750 or 4-5years of payments for $400/month even at 0%.

Good luck on your decision,
Medgar

[rokid]

If the car seems reliable, I'd fix it. On the other hand, if it seems unreliable or worn out, I'd drive it and simultaneously shop for a new car. What you don't want to do, is to be forced to buy a car because you've blown your engine. ----Jim

P.S. Depending the the make, a failed timing belt can mean a blown engine (Honda) or merely being stranded on the road (Toyota).
_________________
"Be well, do good work, and keep in touch"... " Garrison Keillor

[simplesimon]

ironmanba,

If you haven't sensed anything else wrong with the car, I would just go with the repairs. I don't think of the repair cost vs the cost of the vehicle. I think of the repair cost vs what I'd be paying for a new car. $750 is 2-3 months of paying for a new car. If you get more than 2-3 months out of your VW, it's paid itself off. Basically when cost of repairs > cost of ownership, that's when you go with buying a car.

My Toyota has 183k miles on it and still going. *knock on wood*

[dm200]

Generally, I lean towards fixing rather than replacing.

Questions to ask:

1. Are you (primarily your wife) happy with the car (once it is fixed)?
2. Will it be reliable enough for your needs?
3. Are there any serious safety issues tha concern you if you repair it?

If these questions indicate keeping the car, then -

Take the approximate estimated monthy payment on a "new" car and divide it into the costs of repair. That is how long (in rough terms) that keeping the car pays for itself. Chances are you keep the car.

A new car will cost more for insurance as well.

[Cherokee8215]

Since the mileage is relatively low for a 10 year old car, I'd say fix it and keep driving it for now, assuming it is not giving you any other problems. When you have kids and your commutes settle down, then go for the new car.

Even if the belt fails and completely destroys the engine, you can probably still find someone to give you $500+ for it, either for parts or to repair.

Also, you may want to consider dropping collision insurance coverage from the VW if you have not already, and just keep liability due to the car's low value.

[GRT2BOUTDOORS]

I'd be inclined to replace the timing belt and water pump.
The water pump is generally changed at the same time because it's easier to change both at the same time (located in same vicinity), rather than have to do it piecemeal. The water pump usually lasts about 90K, so consider yourself lucky if you've never changed it.

[tibbitts]

You don't want the timing belt to fail, even if it is not an interference engine. Totally losing power at an unpredictable place on the highway isn't safe. My timing belt expired at 102k (different engine however.) It's sad that cars aren't designed to allow easier and less expensive replacement of parts that routinely fail. Newer cars seem to be worse in that respect.

Paul

[kenschmidt]

You might consider just doing the timing belt. The water pump is typically not a periodic maintenance item like a belt. Water pumps also often let you know when they are getting ready to fail - they will often begin squealing before they go completely bad. While it is possible that the water pump can seize up without warning, taking the timing belt and engine out with it, this is generally not typical in my opinion.

Ken

[scuttlebuttrp]

[renter]

[ironmanba]

Thanks for the thoughts guys, I think the varied opinions cement the fact that this isn't a slam dunk call. Repairing has seemed to seize the day, however and does make a lot of sense. It's unreal though, that I can google the parts, which cost around 175 dollars, yet the total cost to me is nearly $1000. For a 6 or 7 hr job, that's over $100/hr in labor... I suppose that's how the world works, people depend on cars ==> people don't understand how they work --> cars break down --> other people charge out the rear end b/c the first set of people can't afford to just go buy a car that works. I think ironmanba jr. is going to go apprentice at a repair shop during his teenage summers. Right now, I'll replace the timing belt/tensioner and am +/- about the water pump. It adds an extra 200 bucks to the cost. Darn, its been kinda fun looking at all the shiny new possibilities while worrying about this. I'll let ya'll know if something completely unrelated dooms the car and this has all been for not. With my luck, I'm sure its not completely out of the question.

[BobB]

Faced with a similar situaition a year ago, we replaced the timing belt and water pump on a 1996 car with over 180,000 miles and were able to drive safely for a year, until we bought a new car. Do the repair or get a newer vehicle now.

[Bob B]

[fishndoc]

Ironmanba,
As Royce explains above, do both repairs; will probably save you money and headache down the road.
As you said, the last thing you want is your wife breaking down on the road at night when you are stuck at the hospital and can't get out to help her.

[Rodc]

[Chip]

I would replace both the timing belt and the water pump. You have to replace the timing belt. All of the different engines used in the '99 Beetle were interference engines. If the belt breaks you will almost certainly bend valves and damage pistons.

Here's a nice app that anyone can use to see whether or not they have an interference engine.

Since the mechanic is already in there, go ahead and change the pump, tensioners and cam seals. Don't be pennywise and dollar foolish. You may change your mind in 2 years and decide to keep the car a while longer. And even if you do sell it, the fact that you did all this will be a selling point to a knowledgeable private party buyer.

In the interest of full disclosure, when I had the timing belt, tensioners, seals and water pump replaced on my Camry at 125K miles, the old water pump appeared to be in excellent condition. I had a tinge of regret at that moment . However, now that it has 195K on it I'm pretty glad I went ahead and did it.

[Dan-Fl]

This is a specific and known type of repair for many cars these day. The timing belt is buried deep into the front(side, depending on how your look at things) of the engine. The critical aspect of doing it correctly is most important in terms of resetting valves, injector pumps, etc.
I have a VW Passat with the same issue today. I am looking at new vehicles but will proabably repair mine. On my VW engine (Diesel) in my boat I did this repair myself but space was not a premium there. My nondealer mechanic is speaking about the same price range for the belt and water pump. I would think repair it and put off this purpose from the rest of the facts in your post. I will propbably have mine repaired too, as I like the car and a shift to some like a Hyundai Wagon will probably be a downward move. I do like the way my 2004 Passat wagon drive and behaves.
Dan

[raymondalombardo]

Repair the car, drive it another six months to a year, and then sell it. Fwiw, you always change the waterpump with the timing belt. It simply doesn't make any sense to leave the old waterpump in when everything is coming out for timing belt replacement. No good shop would do the job that way -- leaving the old water pump.

The reason I say sell the car in six months to ayear is that you do NOT want to own 100k mile plus VWs. VWs have some of the worst reliability out there, and they are very expensive to repair, as in BMW or Mercedes expensive. At least if you are going to pay luxury car prices for repairs, drive a luxury car.

[raymondalombardo]

[norookie]

[Tall Grass]

[heidim]

In my experience, $750 for a timing belt and water pump replacement is cheap (assuming it's done by a trustworthy mechanic). My car and my FIL's car needed water pump replacements (no timing belt replacement because they have chains), and the dealer quotes were $1100. My husband is a very skilled amateur mechanic and did both cars, but it took more than a day each time. And yes, the parts are ridiculously cheap, but the labor is not. I vote with the repair crowd, because you only have to drive it a few months to get your money's worth. My car is worthless right now having rolled over 200,000 miles last week, but I would seriously consider doing this repair one more time in hopes of getting to 250,000 before buying another car.

[LH]

[greenwaves]

When weighing the options, you might also consider how your current car stacks up against the majority in terms of overall safety. Safety options have come along in the last decade...side curtain airbags are an excellent example. I know in my area, the commute has evolved into a cross between a nascar race and a road rally. The speed is unchecked during rush hour and passing on the right and even in exit lanes has generated a huge increase in accidents. Safety is always on my mind when deciding when to replace an aging vehicle.

[atx_user]

I'm surprised it is so expensive. I had my timing/drive belt replace for my Camry at 100,000 miles for $325 at the dealership.

Are VWs just that much more expensive?

[Eureka]

I'll pile on here. Fix it if it's reliable. Whenever a mechanic or dealer suggests routine maintenance, always check the owner's manual to see what the manufacturer recommends. Dealers have all sorts of lists of "inspections" that do nothing but add to their bottom line.

That said, timing belt replacement at 60k is pretty standard. I wonder if any cars still have chains.

100k is barely broken in for most cars now. As soon as you buy another car, it starts to depreciate and wear out. As long as your old one gets you where you want to go and doesn't break down every other week, it's money in the bank.

[ironmanba]

Man, its just not my week with cars. Driving home from work tonight, I watched in dismay as a large rock comes outta nowhere in slo-mo, chipping my front windshield. Then, in my rush to get home and get this stupid day over with, I pushed my luck on a yellow light and of course, the dumb big brother camera flashed on me, so I'm sure I'll have the honor of boosting the local municipal budget in short order. Tomorrow, wake up early to have Safelight kill me with a 90 dollar repair of a 1.5cm chip (ripoff but I'm nervous to test my luck and drive to work later in the day and end up with it spidering) and then Friday, will take off work so I can lay down the $719 for the timing belt/tensioner/water pump. I think after residency, I'm gonna move to Minneapolis or Portland... don't they ride bikes everywhere? Sheesh. Oh, and now that I had mentioned to my wife that I had entertained the idea of getting her a new car sooner than later, all I've heard is, "I've had that car since I was 16", "don't you think it'd be safer to get me something new that won't break down on the highway". Gonna go stick my head in a hole. Glad I have ya'll to complain to. Oh, and your advice has been extremely helpful.

[fsrph]

[fsrph]