Bogleheads

[Ruben1898]

I am just wondering how the oldest hybrid cars are holding up.

Put another way, if I buy a new Prius now, can I expect similar durability, reliability and longevity as if I bot a Corolla? Or do all of those attributes start to fall off sooner than with the conventional car?

[Cubsfan]

I have a Civic hybrid with 165,000 miles on it and almost no unscheduled maintenance. Guys in the service department tell me that's pretty typical.

[dpbsmith]

A good place to ask would be the Yahoo "Prius 2G forum." The "second generation" came out in 2004, but I believe there are people in the group who either own the first-generation models or can point you to people who do.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/....G/messages

[fishndoc]

[ryuns]

From all the stories I've heard, it seems like the batteries are going longer than people expect. I'm thinking it could be a combination of factors:
-A lot of high mileage hybrids had a ton of highway miles which are easy on the batteries (though I hear cabbies with hybrids are seeing them hold up pretty well...?)
-Whole system is over-engineered, such that even a serious decline in charge capacity would not seriously affect the driveability.
-Honda and Toyota made all but the most recent generation of hybrids, and their quality control is second to none.
-Many batteries are replaced under warranty, so people are as likely to complain (or wait until absolutely necessary to replace them).

Poke around www.insightcentral.net for some stories about seriously high mileage Insight. 347,000 mileage on a 2000 Insight, getting ready to move to its third battery pack, first was changed under warranty.

Here's an interesting quote for a person who repairs/reconditions the batteries for a living:

[dpbsmith]

[englishgirl]

I have a 2001 Prius, which is one of the most reliable cars I've ever had. I am at 94.5k miles. I am planning on buying a 2010 model sometime in the next 6 or so months, and expect it to be very reliable also.

I did have to replace the main battery in 2006 - luckily under warranty. In retrospect, there were some weird noises and rattlings for weeks before the battery cut out, so I suspect that the problem could have been caused by something else.
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Sarah

[Cubsfan]

[fishndoc]

Anyone with any experiences with the Toyota Highlander hybrid?
I drove a rental a couple of years ago and was really impressed - only thing out right now in a hybrid that has enough room for the kids/dogs/fishing grear.

Thanks,

Wayne
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" Successful investing involves doing just a few things right, and avoiding serious mistakes." - J. Bogle

[nisiprius]

I think people worry way too much about the battery in a hybrid. The list price of a new battery is something like $3,000. So, what's the big deal? It's not something you want to fail, but just last month we ran over a big branch lying in the road that was too big to avoid, screwed up the front end, and had a $2,000 bill. The batteries in a hybrid are just like a transmission or a clutch or other important component: they'll almost certainly last five years, they'll probably last ten, if they don't it's just another "do I spend $3,000 to fix this aging car" decision.

Maybe a hybrid has more stuff in it to go wrong (two engines, after all). On the other hand, electric motors are practically immortal, and the gasoline engine in it probably has an easier job, isn't running all the time, and gets started in a very gentle way. Most likely the overall engineering and quality of construction is more important than anything in the general design.
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Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

[Valuethinker]

[Boris]

[Cubsfan]

We should keep in mind that Toyota hybrids and Honda hybrids use very different hybrid technology. In a Honda, the battery gets a lot of use in highway driving. In a Prius, not so much.

Another thing to consider is that people who drive the most miles probably have the most incentive to go with a hybrid (or the Jetta TDI for those who don't mind diesel).

[Valuethinker]

[KyleAAA]

[LikeYouImagine]

Don't know if anyone knows the answer to this, but I've always wondered if your gas mileage goes down as the battery ages. I know the Prius never runs at a full charge, but what happens when the batteries chemistry can only retain say a 60% charge?

My thinking is the gas mileage should go down. Or is it that the Prius only uses such a limited amount of charge to begin with, it doesn't matter.

[fishndoc]

[Valuethinker]

[MWCA]

[Dagwood]

[dkdoy]

We just bought a new Camry Hybrid, I did lots of research prior to purchase. Talked with Prius and Camry owners all seem very happy with the cars. Toyota really is the leader in this technology good luck in whatever you pick

[Valuethinker]

[Dagwood]

VT-

I don't disagree with you -- my points about the diesels sold here relate to the new (US only I believe) "adblue" technology diesels. I am not concerned about the need to add "adblue" every 10k miles or so -- that's a maintenance item certainly but not really a reliability concern unless you are neglectful -- but rather that the vehicles sold here with adblue technology have a series of "filters" downstream of the motor -- typically a diesel particulate filter and an oxidation cat. Having owned older gasoline cars in the past, and having purchased the original (as compared to aftermarket) cats for them (to make sure they run as clean as they should), the factory cats are prohibitively expensive and they generally last 100k miles or so, depending on usage. Given that at least in this country, the companies selling the clean diesels are Mercedes, BMW, VW, and Audi -- all cars known in this country for expensive repairs and parts -- if I were looking at a clean diesel, and looking to keep the car for how long I usually try to keep a car -- 100k to 200k miles (I am a Boglehead after all) -- I would be concerned, and would want to get some real world experience and stories, regarding how long these exhaust system components last and what the replacement components cost.

The other area of concern I have with the clean diesels is the injectors. The direct injectors used in these cars are extraordinarily precise and they operate at extremely high pressure. Again, having owned older cars, I have seen and dealt with injector deterioration due to age, and diesel injectors generally cannot be rebuilt. And from a friend of mine who works in the industry, a Mercedes diesel injector of the type used in the current v-6 sells for about $800 retail. Given that all injectors will deteriorate over time due to fuel impurities and simple age, again, I'd be concerned about owning one of these cars out of warranty at, say 125k miles, when the injectors start to show signs of wear. And it would be very difficult to replace just one given how precise these motors are.

Then as you note there are always issues with turbos. Free power is never quite free. Turbo wear, oil leaks, etc have always been and will always remain a concern as these cars age.

So it's not that I dislike the new diesels. I actually think they are pretty cool. But to the extent that any car has a great deal of precise technology in it, and it's your wallet on the line when that technology heads south, your chances of taking a hit go up. It's why I think that for the average person concerned about fuel economy, the simpler way to go is to pick a car that's not bigger than what you need, and focus on a straightforward four cylinder gas engine of the type you'd see in a Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla, etc.

[Valuethinker]

[pshonore]

[Dagwood]

[Cubsfan]