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First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

For three years I have hesitated on making this initial nontraditional post, for fear of violating my parent’s rule of never seeming to boast of one’s accomplishments. However, I’ve concluded fellow diehards want to hear the lessons learned from battle-tested investors who actually used the diehard techniques over many years, and had positive outcomes. That stated, please forgive any braggadocio, as none is intended, regarding the following three career highlights needed for background:

1. I was a modest-salaried family man who put three daughters through college, and retired at age 48.
2. My wife and I lived comfortably to age 59 ½ on rollover and regular IRA withdrawals of 7.8% annually (admittedly aggressive).
3. This same IRA, which had a real probability of declining in value to $250K, actually increased to over $1M by age 62.

I am a 1966 engineering graduate who worked at GE, becoming a QA Manager, with a moderate final 1993 salary of about $75,000. My wife was employed for only about two of the forty years. (I am grateful for how she raised our three daughters). My savings vehicles included 401.k’s, IRA’s and funding IRA’s for my three daughters (starting at age 12).

In hindsight, by 1970 I began implementing many of the current diehard/Boglehead philosophies and techniques, albeit there was no diehard forum or other communication methods to share or enable learning. It was difficult to convince my spouse in 1993 that retirement was doable, since we still had two daughters in college. Income was to come primarily from rolling over GE’s 401.k into my regular IRA, withdrawing an “annuitized” sum of $48,000 annually until the required age 60, when a vested GE Pension would begin. Last year, at age 62, the statements for the regular IRA’s showed assets exceeding $1M. Whew, let the party begin, it can be done!

So, my life is a laboratory of someone who has actually followed the diehard financial strategies for decades, with a reasonable outcome. Here’s some shared wisdom learned:



•During my first year at GE, a fellow employee, retiring at age 56, was emphatic that young GE engineers should be financially independent by age 48. As a novice at age 22, I made investing a personal “hobby.”

•The GE 401.k was: contribute 7% of salary, 50% company match and additional 10% savings allowed. I thus saved 20.5% of pay, for 27 straight years, without withdrawing any monies!

•GE complemented Vanguard, providing employees with one no-load, very low expense ratio, Large Cap Mutual Fund (Blended) managed by GE. This was my workhorse.

•My rebalancing was mostly by retargeting both payroll deductions and annual IRA contributions to bond funds or equity funds. I rarely sold or reduced equity positions. I never missed an IRA contribution.

•My first few years of investing savings consisted of buying individual stocks, suffering as many losses as gains; the portfolio was going nowhere. Few no load funds existed. One, however, American Investors Fund, allowed present day purchases by phone at previous day closing NAV prices! The SEC subsequently issued regulations prohibiting this “gift pricing”. By 1970, I decided never to buy individual stocks or bonds, only no load mutual funds. Old timers will remember this was quite contrarian then, as a deluge of anti no-load fund information was disseminated by financial institutions of all kinds. I never wavered from this theme.

•A similar disinformation deluge existed, and still exists, against index funds. I was slow to embrace index funds until the data emerged in their favor.

•Until Vanguards highly successful index funds, one used Fidelity, TR Price or others for equity funds (they simply performed better) and Vanguard for bond allocations. Vanguard’s sector funds were, however, good. All of my current new equity investments are with Exchange Traded Funds via Vanguard brokerage.

•At no time was I ever out of the market. The least exposure would have been 55% equities, my current allocation.

•During much of my investing career, there were no computers, no Fama-French, no Morningstar, no efficient market theories/frontiers, limited style boxes, no forums, no Roths, no index funds, and most financial guru’s were strongly against the diehard theories. I did have Vanguard & Bogle views! No complaints, but financial information available today is impressive.

•While I generally acknowledge the “small, value equity premium”, it is rather academic looking backwards as no small, value funds existed. One would have had to buy individual small company stocks, a very risky proposition.

•Annuitizing my IRA avoided the 10% early withdrawal penalty. I chose an aggressive 7.8% initial withdrawal rate (about $48,000 yearly), until age 59 ½. Seems high? Remember that in 1993 thirty year bond yields were far above today’s returns. My insurance policy to running out of money was I could always go back to work.

•Ability to retire meant adopting a paradigm shift of drawing down one’s assets to live on. Except for a GE pension and SS, which I recently started taking at age 62, my initial worse case was my wife and I would be out of money at age 85. This later became age 105…now I don’t calculate it as my stock allocation could go to zero and we could still stay retired.

•I never had an “emergency fund”; rather, I felt I could selectively tap either bond or stock funds, if needed. Does anyone know anyone who ever paid a large amount of money, in an emergency?

•I invested using an investment technique I describe as “pyramiding upward”. That is, I would initially buy 10% of a target allocation of Fund X; if it went down I never bought more. If (and until) it went up I subsequently bought more percentages until the full allocation was met.

•My son-in-law suggested I describe some investment failures. If one defines failure as losing money, I researched my history and, to my surprise, except for one fund, I never had a realized loss. Think about it…if one pyramid’s up, reinvests dividends and interest, and holds for long periods of time, few mutual funds lose ground. When stock averages hit new highs, “staying the course” has no losers. My one losing fund had a 94% decline from my initial purchase; I kept it in my portfolio forever to remind me my loss was relatively very small, because I did not average down by buying more than the initial 10%. (The fund did not survive!)

•I tried to buy the no load fund which was the “fastest moving upward” in the asset class. I considered large sectors like energy and healthcare to be asset classes. This meant making weekly manual fund performance calculations and comparisons from newspapers (oh, I wish we had personal computers then). No, it was not market timing as I was never out, but momentum investing…perhaps I plead guilty. Switching, usually in February, but not often, to the fastest moving funds worked for me. Switching within an IRA avoided cap gains taxes. I also plead guilty to using 200 day moving averages as a key technical indicator, although they are becoming too fashionable now.

•Regarding this style of momentum investing, in Jan 2007 I segregated some monies into a separate “alpha” IRA demonstration account to uniquely test the above methods, longer term, as an ongoing investment strategy. By Dec 31 the gain per Vanguard was 47% (mostly funds involving EM, China, and India), with limited trading. I plan a separate posting someday on this.

•I had very satisfying decades- long results with junk bond fund Fidelity Capital and Income Fund, dollar cost averaging reinvested dividends. I generally agree with Swedroe’s advice to avoid this sector, and last summer I sold completely out of Fidelity and Vanguard junk bond funds (whew!). However, I think a compelling case can be made that about every 10 to 15 years a great opportunity emerges to invest in junk bond funds, especially when yields exceed 14%, which they have. For example, FAGIX went from $5.39 NAV (July 02) to $9.17 (May 07) and from $6.23 (Dec 90) to $10.10 (Jan 94) while yielding very high dividends. I plan a separate post in this regard.

•I declared babysitting money, and started separate IRA’s for my three daughters, each when about age 12. Today, the three IRA’s total about $350,000. The understanding with my daughters is this is my money if I ever need it (unlikely); take it now and you will be written out of the will! These IRA’s are very concentrated, as I treated each as part of MY ASSET ALLOCATION. For example, one daughter is 100% international.

•Two years ago, in lieu of a pension, I opted for a lump sum from GE, rolling it into another separate IRA, with a goal of leaving an increased legacy.

•Between age 60 and 70, I am converting some regular IRA assets to Roth IRA’s, through at least the 15% bracket, as I do have large future RMD’s projected. Amazingly, compound interest calculations show two $100,000 Roth IRA’s, targeted to two recent young grandchildren as beneficiaries, growing to many, many millions each when they retire.
(Government probably won’t allow such huge wealth accumulations).
•Current portfolio allocations are: Bonds…45%, primarily money market accounts, the rest short term funds with no duration over 3 years. No junk bonds. Equity side at 55% is very over weighted to energy sector, due to not fully reallocating gains, and a feeling that oil is my hedge against a falling dollar; about 45% is international per M* Xrays; sold all REIT’s; was very concerned during 2007 that almost everything I owned was hitting all-time highs! Nowhere to run. I’m currently cautious about TIP’s and long term bonds.

•I own homes in upstate NY, Florida and another which I rented for 28 years to my parents. The rental property status enabled me to deduct vacation trips to Florida. I did not consider homes in any asset allocations.

•Annually, I prepared a summary report detailing all financial holdings, allocation percentages, money borrowed and house values. I did not calculate annual portfolio returns as the commingling with new money made this difficult, and few benchmarks existed anyway. Of interest, in only three of 38 years did total holdings decline in value.

•I feel the next alpha adding innovation (with no added risk) will involve rebalancing within asset classes. For example, if financials are a major portion of an S&P500 asset class, and financials drop by 40% or more, why not rebalance by directing money into financials, decreasing money in other sectors. Benefits follow from reversions to the mean, value themes and low valuation levels. Recent investment tools (vast computer information) and investment vehicles (ETF’s) now exist to make the opportunities identifiable and doable, at very low expense costs. Experienced diehards seem resistant to these possibilities.

•What did I do in early retirement? My wife and I made a list of the top 100 things we wanted to do in our remaining lifetimes. We have completed 47 of these.

•In 1993 my wife put a sign on our bedroom door that reads “Nothing is worse than outliving your money”. Four months ago she took down that sign!

Thanks for your attention on this nontraditional type posting. I’ll expand on any aspects above, if requested in response posts. I’m glad to join the forum
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manuvns



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 232

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice and wow pretty long post .i guess you did a lot of home work with your nest egg. how did the “pyramiding upward” technique works ? any related article on that ?
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Ted Valentine



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Le Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:

•I never had an “emergency fund”; rather, I felt I could selectively tap either bond or stock funds, if needed. Does anyone know anyone who ever paid a large amount of money, in an emergency?


Wow. Great post.

I'm here to add that yes, I am one that has paid a large amount of money in an emergency. Several times. Call yourself blessed if you never did.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To Manuvns .

Thanks for being my first ever responder! “Pyramiding upward” has an underlying theme that investors (me) make horrible decisions when in loss positions. One can minimize the extent of losses, and thus not lose sleep, by employing the following scheme. If one desires to buy mutual fund or ETF X, make your initial purchase of about 10% of overall money targeted to the fund. One then never makes the next purchase unless he is in positive territory…then further purchases are made. If the fund ever starts seriously declining, then one is at least in a gain position to make decisions. If the initial purchase declines, then either never buy more, or set a loss of about 10% as a time to get out. 10% of a 10% initial buy is only a 1% loss. Thus one doesn’t lose much sleep over this amount. If, in this losing position, time (months) goes on and it is clear that a bear market caused the decline (eg everything went down), I would consider injecting the next 10% of monies, but only if the NAV went through the 200 day moving average on the upside! This forces patience, so one doesn’t catch “falling knives.” Then the pyramiding upward could begin in earnest if the fund held and was trending upward. Computers (like Yahoo) now graph 200 day moving (or dynamic) averages . Checkout past funds with 15 year histories to see such charts.

My next pyramiding up buying will likely be a bank ETF, namely KBE or KRE and I feel my entry point may be within days. I don’t trade, but plan to hold 3-5 years. I don’t know of written material to reference this approach, but probably it exists.

To Ted Valentine,

who replied “Wow, what a great post.” Thanks, you have made my day. Sorry to hear of your emergency…the question is not having the emergency, but if one is asset allocated (with negative correlated assets) would one not feel comfortable tapping a selected asset if needed, versus money sitting in a savings account waiting the emergency?
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Jim R



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
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Location: 20 miles South of Grand Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me also be one of the first to welcome you and say Thank You for your contributions (current and future) to the forum.

...much info to ponder.

Jim R

ps: just curious, what were the first and last things to be crossed off of your "100" list???
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mikenz



Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 747

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for taking the time to post your experiences.

Quote:
Between age 60 and 70, I am converting some regular IRA assets to Roth IRA’s, through at least the 15% bracket, as I do have large future RMD’s projected.


Is it possible to use SEPP payments to fund Roths? These avoid any penalties on early withdrawals, but there must be disadvantages.

Quote:
I had very satisfying decades- long results with junk bond fund Fidelity Capital and Income Fund, dollar cost averaging reinvested dividends. I generally agree with Swedroe’s advice to avoid this sector, and last summer I sold completely out of Fidelity and Vanguard junk bond funds (whew!). However, I think a compelling case can be made that about every 10 to 15 years a great opportunity emerges to invest in junk bond funds, especially when yields exceed 14%, which they have. For example, FAGIX went from $5.39 NAV (July 02) to $9.17 (May 07) and from $6.23 (Dec 90) to $10.10 (Jan 94) while yielding very high dividends. I plan a separate post in this regard


Please do!
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baw703916



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 2353
Location: Northern Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi retired at 48,

Welcome to the forum. And a great big thanks for sharing your years of experience with us! It's very impressive that you figured out all of those key points of investing before anyone had even heard of John Bogle, let alone Bogleheads. A lot of good lessons there for anyone, of any age, to take away.

Hope you will have the opportunity to do most, if not all, of the remaining 53 items on your list!

Best wishes,
Brad

P.S. I was probably raised like you were and am often concerned about sounding like I am bragging. I don't see your post that way at all--sharing actual real world experience about saving, investing, and managing one's life and finances is every bit as important as any discussion on asset allocation, the value premium, etc. etc.
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DaleMaley



Joined: 01 Mar 2007
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Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice story Smile

Quote:
During my first year at GE, a fellow employee, retiring at age 56, was emphatic that young GE engineers should be financially independent by age 48. As a novice at age 22, I made investing a personal “hobby.”


I had sort of a similar experience when I was 24. Around Christmas time of 1980, I was at by buddies house.......and when I walked by his older brother's bedroom.......I saw this magazine laying on his bed with the title MONEY. I picked it up and read it...was fascinated by the stories.....and subscribed in Feb 1980. I took an adult ed class in Sep 1980 and learned some of the basics of investing from Venita VanCaspel's book. I have always saved between 15% and 25% of my gross income every since.

I have been able to encourage many young employees to contribute to their 401K ......at least up to their company match limit. I have had several of them come back to me years later .......and thank me for talking them into contributing to their 401K.

Thanks for sharing your story.
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Dale
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tommy_gunn



Joined: 06 Jun 2007
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Location: America's Finest City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent post! Sounds similar to my parents, except they retired early on pensions rather than 401ks and such. You certainly accumulated a lot in the span of your career, and on one paycheck.

Congrats, and a pat on the back to what you will be leaving your daughters and grand children!

I look forward to more of your posts
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dave.d



Joined: 19 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously OP has done very well, so all questions preceeded by a tip o' the hat... but I'd be concerned about the daughters' IRA's not being diversified, as the default will be for each to inherit their own as it is. They could have widely varying amounts if, e.g., one in stock, one in bonds. If the 3 accounts total $350k, each one is quite large enough to have a balanced multi-asset class allocation.

Quote:
compound interest calculations show two $100,000 Roth IRA’s, targeted to two recent young grandchildren as beneficiaries, growing to many, many millions each when they retire.

I always assumed Roth IRA's would just become ordinary taxable money if inherited. Is that not right?

Nice point about the small/value premium not being practically investable over most of the time period in which it has been measured. Makes me wonder if the recent run (2000-06) is just the premia being arbitraged away?
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DaleMaley



Joined: 01 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your story reminds me of the story I read about the McIntyres......by David Bach......the Automatic Millionaire book guy.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To Jim R

Glad to see some interest in the top 100 things to do yet in lifetime…First on the list is play the Augusta National Golf Course (undone); first done was to live briefly with “monks”. I experienced this with the Benedictine monks (known as the singing monks) in the hills of Weston, Vermont. The silence was golden! The last to be done was a recent tour with my wife of The Alamo in Texas. Almost bought a coonskin Davey Crocket hat I wore as a youth.


To mikenz

Thanks for your support. I’m guessing here, but SEPP


To mikenz

Thanks for your support. I’m guessing here, but SEPP pertains to earned income, doesn’t it? I’m retired.

Glad you may share same feeling re junk bond funds. I will post sometime with more detail and actual experiences.

Retired at 48
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NetNet



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: pyramiding up Reply with quote

This is a pretty standard momentum trading(IBD/William O'Neil) strategy...and I believe it is called the same as well.

Thanks for sharing! Its good to hear success stories stemming from high and consistent equities exposure when the bad news bears are at bat.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:48 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To baw703916 and

Dale Maley and

Tommy-Gunn

Thanks for your very supportive responses!
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To Dave.D

No, the inhereted IRA's are not taxable. Briefly, to my knowledge, the grandchildren must begin taking withdrawals (RMD) using a special table of their life expectancy. It is a very small number at e.g. age 3. The divisor number is then increased by one each year, until about age 83 when all is exhausted. Much has been written on this...see Ed Slott IRA books (3). If this answer is too short, I'll provide more info.

retired at 48.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To Dale Maley

Thanks. I read your article on the MCINTIRES! Yes, much like me; but I was perhaps a little more fortunate to work for GE who gave an excelent opportunity to save. And with all 3 daughters going to Penn State it saved me some money.

BTW...I'm getting hundreds of hits, and very encouraging responses. Thanks to all.

retired at 48.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To Dave.d who writes

Obviously OP has done very well, so all questions preceeded by a tip o' the hat... but I'd be concerned about the daughters' IRA's not being diversified, as the default will be for each to inherit their own as it is. They could have widely varying amounts if, e.g., one in stock, one in bonds. If the 3 accounts total $350k, each one is quite large enough to have a balanced multi-asset class allocation.


Point is well taken, but here's how it is being managed. 1. When they are free to use these IRA's, they can fully reallocate, balancing it into their own asset allocation plan, without paying any taxes.. 2.) The daughters, now in their thirties, and husbands, are becoming very good learning investors. For one of the three, I just "released" it fully to my son-in-law and daughter to manage. They just reallocated. 3) I have a provision in my will that the oldest daughter executor is to first provide from other assets a "rebalancing sum" so that the IRA plus rebalance money is equal, and 4) BTW each son in law signed a prenup that the IRA's were fully and solely my daughter's!

retired at 48
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Dale_G



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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Location: central Florida - on the mature side of 70

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Help me out retired at 48:

Quote:
•The GE 401.k was: contribute 7% of salary, 50% company match and additional 10% savings allowed. I thus saved 20.5% of pay, for 27 straight years, without withdrawing any monies!


The first 401(k)s started in 1982 - and you retired in 1992. I make that 10 or 11 years. How did you mange to stuff all of that money into tax deferred?

Dale
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

Dale-G writes:

Help me out retired at 48:

Quote:
•The GE 401.k was: contribute 7% of salary, 50% company match and additional 10% savings allowed. I thus saved 20.5% of pay, for 27 straight years, without withdrawing any monies!

(Dale)
The first 401(k)s started in 1982 - and you retired in 1992. I make that 10 or 11 years. How did you mange to stuff all of that money into tax deferred?

Dale...I am 99% sure of this answer because it is partly based on memory. Indeed, you are right, the designator "401.k" was taken from the new tax code, an enhanced IRS version of earlier corporate savings plans. That is, the tax laws expanded and made it easier, and encouraged more companies to allow employees to save , in (I'll defer to your knowledge as to date) the 1980's. However, there were earlier corp plans such that if you followed certain rules, it was a tax sheltered environment. For example, at GE in the early 1070's it was called Savings and Security Program, had only one each no-load stock and bond fund, and one had to keep money to "vest" eg three or five years, and other rules, to be nontaxable. I used the 401.k as a generic term because most are now familiar with that name. In the 1970's it had different names.

PS: very observant comment, though. It's comforting when diehards are paying attention to detail. Hope the above answer is satisfactory.

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Dale_G



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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Location: central Florida - on the mature side of 70

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks retired at 48. I am also a retired Engineer, so I pay attention to (some) details.

Your Plan was probably a CODA “cash or deferred arrangements,” which allowed some compensation (and resulting tax liability) to be deferred. These plans were funded by the employer through bonuses or other cash payments and not from salary. CODAs predate 401(k) plans by several decades and are viewed as their precursors.

You were indeed fortunate to have such a plan available when many were often not even eligible for the then low levels of contributions to IRAs.

Maximum IRA contribution 1975-1981 = $1,500
Maximum IRA contribution 1982-1996 = $2,000

Dale
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Adrian Nenu



Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 4206

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi "retired at 48",

My warmest wishes and welcome to the Bogleheads forum. Your story is truly inspirational and educational to all of us which are still working. Coincidentally, I too will be retiring from my current job with a nice pension at age 48. However I plan to go back to work on my second career for which I am studying now. Stick around, contribute and enjoy our forum. Thanks for a great first post.

Adrian
anenu@tampabay.rr.com
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bolivia



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Adrian - Congrats and welcome.

It's nice to hear someone's story, especially covering a long period of time. We always seem to discuss what strategy, do-this-don't-do-that mentality; it's refreshing to hear your experiences, the good and the bad. I get more out of these types of postings than from lots of other info.

Bolivia
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hansp



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 76
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject: Insurance Reply with quote

Retired,

How did you handle health insurance in early retirement? Did you have something from GE or fund it entirely yourself? I know this has become a major expense and consideration in early retirement.

Hans
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DaleMaley



Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My company also had a plan.....as least as early as the 1970's.....where you contributed 1,2,3,4,5, or 6% of pay and company matched 50 cents on the dollar. Investment selection was company stock and a small list of mutual funds including Fidelity Magellan. There was also a brokerage option.....which was painful to use in the age before the Internet......but this is where I invested in the Vanguard 500 fund.

Once 401K's came out......the employee investment plan was eliminated and investments in it were folded into the 401K plan.
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Bruce



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 126
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Thanks for the post Reply with quote

Congrats "retired at 48" for an outstanding achievement and an excellent first post.

Curious for more info about two things.

You wrote "During my first year at GE, a fellow employee, retiring at age 56, was emphatic that young GE engineers should be financially independent by age 48."

That must have been an even more unique accomplishment at the time!

I work with some young college grads as well, any thoughts on the best way to offer the same advice to them with all the internet info available today?

Second ?, could you comment on how much of your success do you feel was due to investment growth and aggressive saving, versus the imposed lifestyle reduction habits of adjusting to that reduced income while raising three daughters.

(I also have three daughters!, but only one old enough to have started her Roth IRA)

I love your idea of a list with your wife of the 100 things you want to do. I look forward to having many conversations about the same with my wife.

Best regards,
Bruce
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To: Adrian Nenu and Bolivia


This can't be the same A. Nenu who predicted the NY Giants would beat the NE Patriots, is it??!! Great call. I live in Fla near Stuart (east coast) and wanted to attend your central fl meeting but have a schedule conflict. We will meet sometime.

Bolivia...thanks for the positive comments.

retired at 48
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To: hansp

Good observation. I was lucky. My whole career at GE involved Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. With the cold war slowdown, GE sold my small division to Westinghouse. Since I had above 25 years service, I got one, (and only one) benefit if I left the Co , as I did not qualify for any "early retirement." That was, health care at 50% of GE's cost. That said, these costs have still grown to a good size today.

To: Dale Mabry

Your comment on your pre 401.k company savings plans parallels mine, and helps clarify this to a previous responders question. Thanks. (The bottom line is that during the 1970's some large companies did have plans like the later 401.k plans.)
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To BRUCE:

You wrote. Congrats "retired at 48" for an outstanding achievement and an excellent first post.

Curious for more info about two things.

You wrote "During my first year at GE, a fellow employee, retiring at age 56, was emphatic that young GE engineers should be financially independent by age 48."

That must have been an even more unique accomplishment at the time!

I work with some young college grads as well, any thoughts on the best way to offer the same advice to them with all the internet info available today?

Reply: Yes, when the general retirement age was 65, encountering a fellow employee retiring at age 56 was a novelty. He did it by lifestyle adjusting to the (almost extreme) of frugal…drove one old car, few clothes . But he was a 4 children family man! Subconsiously age 48 stuck in my mind.

Throughout my career at GE I advised many younger people re finances. (Mentoring at GE was a tradition in all regards). By making it known that you, for example, have an interest in, and study, investing, younger people will gravitate to you seeking guidance. Then, pour your heart out! At one point in GE, I conducted a quarterly roundtable lunch session with about 20 secretaries, leading discussions of how to select employee benefits, including what funds to select, and other financial topics of their choosing. I still mentor, and am in touch with younger people,, via the internet. I often copy info from these forums, sending it to myself on Email so I can enlarge the type, and save…I cc several others at this time. They seem to appreciate it. It is especially fun now that two son’s in law are active and interested in investing!

Bruce, thanks for your interest. I’ll reply to second equally great question in separate response..OK.

Retired at 48
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livesoft



Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 12030

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you participated in the early retirement forum: http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/ ?

Lots of stories over there similar to yours. You might enjoy hanging out there, but you may be a little old nowadays for those folks Smile
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To: Livesoft

I visited the forum and am in process of registering. Thanks
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To NetNet

Thanks. I'm sure others have written on similar "pyramidding upward" techniques, but I'm hesitant on the word "trading", as I gave up trading early in my career. Rather, I held for long periods. Switches were same day, thus never being out of the market. The momentum rides were attempts to maximize alpha within the already selected asset class.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

BRUCE wrote:

Quote:
could you comment on how much of your success do you feel was due to investment growth and aggressive saving, versus the imposed lifestyle reduction habits of adjusting to that reduced income while raising three daughters.

(I also have three daughters!, but only one old enough to have started her Roth IRA)

I love your idea of a list with your wife of the 100 things you want to do. I look forward to having many conversations about the same with my wife
.

Reply: The “ list of top 100 things to do yet in my wife and I lifetimes” is generating lot’s of interest. If the demand is there, perhaps I should separately post the list??!!@#!!?

Regarding question one, no, I did not lead a frugal or reduced lifestyle. We had a good house, upscale household furnishings, two cars, family expenses, etc. Upon reflection I see how this was possible, and still save. First, the following tailwinds helped: Rare today, I worked for the same company (GE), at the same location, same initial purchase house (never moved), all three daughters at same schools, including Penn State, (sounds like Warren Buffet!?, yes, similar). Our parents were reasonably well off financially, so eg we often vacationed at their beach homes both summer (NJ) and winter (FL).

Secondly, in the late 60’s, early 1970’s, an engineer, and later manager, earned more real salary vs today. Then, most wives did not work, yet the salaries bought almost as much as two earners today. An unintended consequence of women entering the workforce en mass was prices went up, adjusting to the dual incomes (eg mortgage rates at 8%). I always felt OVERPAID, and thankful for the times when the USA was the real leader in the world (after all, Germany and Japan were still recovering from WW2). Later, I also “banked” a full 2 weeks of pay into the 401.k in lieu of vacation, when I got 5 weeks vacation.

Lastly, retiring with two daughters in college (no income) qualified me for a host of benefits like more grants, more student loans, etc…what a country!

But the key was disciplined savings, with reasonable returns. I never made a killing! If my portfolio’s growth rate was the market’s rate, about 9%, try these numbers: 20.5% of your pay for 27 years, at 9% compounded. The last five years are huge money growth. This was actual…going forward maybe 9% is not achievable. But the dollar cost averaging bonus of payroll deductions may add about 1% alpha. Going forward, the tailwinds for younger people are the investment tools (computers, diehards, info etc) and the low drag, extremely low cost investment vehicles (Vanguard, ETF’s, electronic fund transfers, etc), and ability to safely do international investing! Also, a host of tax sheltered investment plans exist now, eg, IRA’s Roth IRA, HSA’s, 529 college savings, etc to tax shelter money.

BTW, that was a very insightful question and shows my post is being reflected on. Thanks, and good luck raising your three daughters (I know the difficulty, but this, too, will pass!!!)

Retired at 48.
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NoMoreInvestingExcitement



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Le Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:
I never had an “emergency fund”; rather, I felt I could selectively tap either bond or stock funds, if needed. Does anyone know anyone who ever paid a large amount of money, in an emergency?


Retired At 48 (And Still Going Strong!) ... don't know if that would fit within the name length parameters here at diehards.org, but if it does ... you should consider it!!!

Great story ... great life!

I worked at IBM for a time in NY and came to know well an older gentleman who was a Human Factors IBMer for decades. The tone of your investing "autobiography" reminded me mightily of him, although I'm sure you never met each other given the divergence in your specialties (although one never knows, back then, human factors ... today usually referred to as ergonomics ... spread fairly wide about "I've Been Moved" or, my favorite, "Ike's Banana Mart").

Anyway, back to the serious topic at hand. I know of three families who either had to dip deeply into their emergency funds or wished to God that they had such a fund in which they could dip. Count yourself lucky or blessed or however you'd like to phrase it that you never needed one.

Just out of curiousity (trying to live vicariously here...) what are the next five things on your "to do" list?

All the best,
NMIE
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MP173



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 400

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retired at 48:

A personal question...why did you retire at age 48?

ed
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To: NoMoreInvestingExcitement, who wrote

Quote:
Anyway, back to the serious topic at hand. I know of three families who either had to dip deeply into their emergency funds or wished to God that they had such a fund in which they could dip. Count yourself lucky or blessed or however you'd like to phrase it that you never needed one.

Just out of curiousity (trying to live vicariously here...) what are the next five things on your "to do" list?


Our to-do list is generally done based on opportunities...for example to visit China--take a trip to the region. Others, such as "visit at least 25 of the top 100 historic hotels, is an ongoing process. Further, orthers take some ingenuity, like recently riding the Goodyear Blimp. The blimp is not available to the public, but with the planting of proper seeds, I got a call from the pilot saying he was making an unscheduled landing last summer near the Schenectady NY airport, and could I get there within one hour. We enjoyed the flight! I have, after three years of effort, arranged to play the Augusta National Golf Course; we plan to trainride the orient express; and, with the popularity of dancing with the stars tv show, I'm getting very pressured to keep my promise to learn ballroom dancing.

I hope the emergency fund comment is not misinterpretred, as I don't suggest an emergency can't occur. The question as I see it is that if one has an asset allocated portfolio, with some negative correlators, and with the speed with which one can liquidate today, can a selected fund not be tapped for emergency monies. For example, today, one should have a short term bond fund, which has gone up, to sell if needed.
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

MP 173 wrote:

Quote:
A personal question...why did you retire at age 48?



Oh, a really tough question. Without writing an epistle, the short answer is probably: The goal is not retirement, but financial independence. When that is reached, regardless of age, it is enlightening and a reawakening to ask what one is doing with their life. I was very happy at GE, couldn't have asked for a better job than quality assurance of nuclear reactors on navy nuclear powered submarines. That said, at age 48 it seemed time for a change. Yes, I stopped working, but not stopped living. And those who are "retired" will tell you that, if you have varied interests, it will amaze you where the time goes and how busy you become. For example I read fewer books now than when I was working. Don't have enough time. My 365 days on the calendar are almost all ex'd off. Also, for example, it enabled me to find, and build, a second home in Florida on a Jack Nicklaus signature golf course, which has more that doubled in value, that I wouldn't have done if working. Damn, now your question is going to keep me awake all night...!!!
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NoMoreInvestingExcitement



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Le Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:
To: NoMoreInvestingExcitement, who wrote

Quote:
Anyway, back to the serious topic at hand. I know of three families who either had to dip deeply into their emergency funds or wished to God that they had such a fund in which they could dip. Count yourself lucky or blessed or however you'd like to phrase it that you never needed one.

Just out of curiousity (trying to live vicariously here...) what are the next five things on your "to do" list?


Our to-do list is generally done based on opportunities...for example to visit China--take a trip to the region. Others, such as "visit at least 25 of the top 100 historic hotels, is an ongoing process. Further, orthers take some ingenuity, like recently riding the Goodyear Blimp. The blimp is not available to the public, but with the planting of proper seeds, I got a call from the pilot saying he was making an unscheduled landing last summer near the Schenectady NY airport, and could I get there within one hour. We enjoyed the flight! I have, after three years of effort, arranged to play the Augusta National Golf Course; we plan to trainride the orient express; and, with the popularity of dancing with the stars tv show, I'm getting very pressured to keep my promise to learn ballroom dancing.

I hope the emergency fund comment is not misinterpretred, as I don't suggest an emergency can't occur. The question as I see it is that if one has an asset allocated portfolio, with some negative correlators, and with the speed with which one can liquidate today, can a selected fund not be tapped for emergency monies. For example, today, one should have a short term bond fund, which has gone up, to sell if needed.


Thanks for the quick response.

And, no, I wasn't attempting to imply that your financial housekeeping and investing plans are/were somehow inadequate b/c you never had a quote/unquote "emergency fund."

Indeed, YOU have done what you sought to do.

I'd be a fool to point out what I think are mistakes (which I most certainly am NOT trying to do) in your strategy, while I'm still swimming upstream like some anadromous salmon.

I was just answering one of your own inquiries in all honesty!

My take on the emergency fund has maybe gone in the far opposite direction (it's very well funded) b/c of what I've seen happen to those I know who have fallen on hard times. I wish I could take your advice on S/T bonds, but with our tax situation I come out further ahead using a VG's CA money mkt fund (I've considered going to VG's Intermediate CA bond fund with part of my emergency money, but when I asked the faithful for advice, no one really advocated doing so ... therefore, I stand pat).

Now, back to your "can't wait to do this" list: you mentioned Schenectady, NY ... here's another link between us besides my old-time IBMer human factors friend. Schenectady's a GE town last I checked, not an IBM one.

But in any event, my wife and I both graduated from Union a few decades ago. You can't be too far away from Union if you hooked up with the GY Blimp (how cool is that, to coin a phrase) so quickly.

All the best,
NMIE
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NoMoreInvestingExcitement



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Le Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:
To: NoMoreInvestingExcitement, who wrote

Quote:
Anyway, back to the serious topic at hand. I know of three families who either had to dip deeply into their emergency funds or wished to God that they had such a fund in which they could dip. Count yourself lucky or blessed or however you'd like to phrase it that you never needed one.

Just out of curiousity (trying to live vicariously here...) what are the next five things on your "to do" list?


Our to-do list is generally done based on opportunities...for example to visit China--take a trip to the region. Others, such as "visit at least 25 of the top 100 historic hotels, is an ongoing process. Further, orthers take some ingenuity, like recently riding the Goodyear Blimp. The blimp is not available to the public, but with the planting of proper seeds, I got a call from the pilot saying he was making an unscheduled landing last summer near the Schenectady NY airport, and could I get there within one hour. We enjoyed the flight! I have, after three years of effort, arranged to play the Augusta National Golf Course; we plan to trainride the orient express; and, with the popularity of dancing with the stars tv show, I'm getting very pressured to keep my promise to learn ballroom dancing.

I hope the emergency fund comment is not misinterpretred, as I don't suggest an emergency can't occur. The question as I see it is that if one has an asset allocated portfolio, with some negative correlators, and with the speed with which one can liquidate today, can a selected fund not be tapped for emergency monies. For example, today, one should have a short term bond fund, which has gone up, to sell if needed.


My apologies ... I've gotten my IBM's too mixed up with my GE's ... so of course ... Schenectady is a likely home base. Sorry for the mix up. Trying to do too many things at once!

Ever know a gentleman by the name of Herb Strong at GE? Great friend of my and my wife's family. We make it a point to donate to the "Protection of the Adirondacks" Society every year in his memory.

All the best,
NMIE
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:05 pm    Post subject: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Learne Reply with quote

To: NoMoreInvestingExcitement

It's a small world. My GE location was in the old Two Guys building renovated to keep us a "secret" operation. It's just up from the main gate entrance off Union Street side. I walked Union college a lot at lunchtime.

Re emergency fund, you in essence have a need to minimize taxes , and thus your approach is understandable. Have you ever considered having a standing home equity line of credit, monies available to tap if needed in an emergency...freeing up your other funds for investment? This may seem strange to you, but I now have a large home equity loan I am living off (taking no IRA income) while I use the tax space in the next few years to convert monies from regular to Roth IRA's!

Retired at 48...BTW Thanks for your posts.
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actuaryinvestor



Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Le Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:
BRUCE wrote:
Reply: The “ list of top 100 things to do yet in my wife and I lifetimes” is generating lot’s of interest. If the demand is there, perhaps I should separately post the list??!!@#!!?


Thanks for some great posts so far. I'm definitely interested in seeing your top 100 list. I'm far far away from retirement, but I want to make a similar list myself.

--
Brian
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To: actuaryinvestor, who wrote:

Quote:
Thanks for some great posts so far. I'm definitely interested in seeing your top 100 list. I'm far far away from retirement, but I want to make a similar list myself.


Reply. Bruce,Thanks for the support. OK, you convinced me...surmizing you are younger, and would still like to see the top 100! Wow, this little tidbit of my life is generating lot's of interest. I'll make a separate post next week, after this one subsides in interest.

retired at 48
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Jay



Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

retired at 48,

As someone who has achieved something that I very much aspire to, I have several questions I would like to ask you.

What was the value of your portfolio when you retired in 1993?

You mentioned a 7.8% initial withdrawal rate. Was this 7.8% of the initial value (and perhaps inflation adjusted), or was it 7.8% of whatever your portfolio rose/fell to?

Out of the 7.8% withdrawal, how much of this money was used for fixed expenses versus discretionary expenditures? In other words, if things got really tough, what could you have cut back to without a significant/permanent lifestyle change (selling your home and moving into a less expensive one for example).

I'm sorry if this has already been asked/answered, but I'm very interested and can't seem to find that information.

- Jay
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NoMoreInvestingExcitement



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: First time Poster’s IRA @ $1,000,000: Shares Wisdom Le Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:
To: NoMoreInvestingExcitement

It's a small world. My GE location was in the old Two Guys building renovated to keep us a "secret" operation. It's just up from the main gate entrance off Union Street side. I walked Union college a lot at lunchtime.

Re emergency fund, you in essence have a need to minimize taxes , and thus your approach is understandable. Have you ever considered having a standing home equity line of credit, monies available to tap if needed in an emergency...freeing up your other funds for investment? This may seem strange to you, but I now have a large home equity loan I am living off (taking no IRA income) while I use the tax space in the next few years to convert monies from regular to Roth IRA's!

Retired at 48...BTW Thanks for your posts.


"Two Guys!" Wow ... haven't heard of that old store in ages!

Don't know if you ever go by the campus these days, but if so give the Nott Memorial a wave for me.

As to your question concerning the use of a HELOC, in fact I do have one (taken out with our mortgage when my family purchased our current residence). My wife and I paid it off in less than one year, fearing that interest rates would climb, which they did at the time. It has had a zero balance ever since.

I understand your suggestion that I use the HELOC in lieu of an emergency fund, but I dislike the alternative b/c who knows what rates will be like if and when my family ever encounters "an emergency." I keep it open for two basic reasons. First, buried in the o so fine print I'm told that I'll be hit with a good-sized fee if I close the HELOC before a certain date. Second, the HELOC increases our overall available credit and thus helps my and I to retain excellent FICO scores.

... is the Van Dyke Restaurant still down on Union St?

Regards,
NMIE
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To: NoMore InvestingExcitement, who wrote:

Quote:
I understand your suggestion that I use the HELOC in lieu of an emergency fund, but I dislike the alternative b/c who knows what rates will be like if and when my family ever encounters "an emergency." I keep it open for two basic reasons. First, buried in the o so fine print I'm told that I'll be hit with a good-sized fee if I close the HELOC before a certain date. Second, the HELOC increases our overall available credit and thus helps my and I to retain excellent FICO scores.

... is the Van Dyke Restaurant still down on Union St?



Reply: For consideration, If it is "emergency money", then the possible high interest rate of a HELOC would still only be for a shorter time period, until you could withdraw funds from elsewhere. Also, a high interest rate period also means your money elsewhere, such as in short term bond funds, is also earning higher interest. In essence, the time-value cost of money always evens out.

More importantly, I think the long running Van Dyke recently went bankrupt!

Enjoy conversing with you...retired at 48
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NoMoreInvestingExcitement



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

retired at 48 wrote:
Reply: For consideration, If it is "emergency money", then the possible high interest rate of a HELOC would still only be for a shorter time period, until you could withdraw funds from elsewhere. Also, a high interest rate period also means your money elsewhere, such as in short term bond funds, is also earning higher interest. In essence, the time-value cost of money always evens out.


Well, I can see how you "stayed the course" (as we say so often here) over the decades to achieve your goals ... you formulate your plan and that's that! For me, alas, I guess I'll stick with my conservative approach. If Vanguard had a short term CA tax-exempt bond fund (now it has intermediate and long only), I'd go that far. But I simply don't want to raid other resources, as your scenario suggests, in the event of an emergency.

retired at 48 wrote:
More importantly, I think the long running Van Dyke recently went bankrupt!


That's a shame. Guess it leaves Jack's Oyster House in downtown Albany as one of the only old-school places left in the area?

retired at 48 wrote:
Enjoy conversing with you...retired at 48


Same here!
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Jay, who wrote:

Quote:
As someone who has achieved something that I very much aspire to, I have several questions I would like to ask you.

What was the value of your portfolio when you retired in 1993?

You mentioned a 7.8% initial withdrawal rate. Was this 7.8% of the initial value (and perhaps inflation adjusted), or was it 7.8% of whatever your portfolio rose/fell to?

Out of the 7.8% withdrawal, how much of this money was used for fixed expenses versus discretionary expenditures? In other words, if things got really tough, what could you have cut back to without a significant/permanent lifestyle change (selling your home and moving into a less expensive one for example).

I'm sorry if this has already been asked/answered, but I'm very interested and can't seem to find that information.



Reply: Jay, you are the first to ask questions re a topic, namely, the 7.8% withdrawal rate, that I thought would be on real interest. First, you ask "value of portfolio"...if you mean starting IRA total value it was about $625,000. I had some other savings, and as stated IRA's for my three daughters. Plus a GE pension value kicking in 13 years later, age 60.

To withdraw from an IRA without the IRS 10% penalty, there is (at the time obscure, but now more commonly known) a provision that if one "annuitizes" the IRA by taking withdrawals until age 59 1/2, the 10% penalty does not apply. The withdrawal rate you selected was of your choosing, but the IRS had limitation guidance. The initial sum for me, $48,000, was then fixed for all later years (you did not recalculate). Indeed, some people got into trouble because if your IRA assets fell significantly, you could draw to zero. The IRS, I think in the 1990's permitted a "one time only" change to one's selected withdrawal amount, allowing people to reduce theirs.

My 7.8% withdrawal rate chosen was based on an inflation rate of 4.0%, and running various numbers to safely get me to age 60 (pension time) and then age 62 (social security time). A slightly aggressive 7.8% was chosen, but remember 30 year bond yields were very high (like 8%) to lock in returns. A reasonable worse case analysis showed the IRA declining to about $250,000 by age 60. And as stated, by having a good market environment, staying the course, some luck and a great wife who only visited Worth Ave in Palm Beach once a year, the actual initial IRA grew to over $1M by last summer (age 62), even with the $48,000 yearly drag.

You asked what part of the 7.8% ($48,000) was for fixed vs discretionary expenses. We had probably $5 to $8K annual income from other investments (non IRA). Our lifestyle was very good, no holding back, but with mortgages paid off, and in two years all children out of college, this $55,000 a year was plenty! I am of the minority who feel the 80 to 90% of income needed to retire is often too high! Rather one should estimate their needs and calculate from there. No mortgages can be a big factor.

Large home equity lines of credit were the fallbacks, and the ultimate fallback was going back to work, but we never came close to this dread.

lastly, one has to get in the mindset of, and be comfortable with, drawing down one's assets. Discard the old retirement model of income, dividends, social security and pension equalling ones annual expenses, or you may never get there, and , if you do, you will leave a large inheretence for others!

Hope this helps! Retired at 48
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Random Musings



Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 2410
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2. My wife and I lived comfortably to age 59 ½ on rollover and regular IRA withdrawals of 7.8% annually (admittedly aggressive).


Congrats on achieving your goals!!

However, when looking back, was the 7.8% withdrawl possible due to how the markets were acting during that time (that is, being at the right place at the right time historically)?

Could the same withdrawl rate been achieved if the market acted using 1968 as a starting point?

RM
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retired at 48



Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1726
Location: Saratoga NY; Port Saint Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To: Random Musings, who writes:

Quote:
Congrats on achieving your goals!!

However, when looking back, was the 7.8% withdrawl possible due to how the markets were acting during that time (that is, being at the right place at the right time historically)?

Could the same withdrawl rate been achieved if the market acted using 1968 as a starting point?



RM...see my more detailed response to "Jay just above your post (we posted in the same minute!). I only had to get from age 48 to age 60, not a lifetime. So in a 1968 and on time period, perhaps the IRA would have declined, but remember, money market fund yields got to 13% for a long time. I think it would have been doable, but an analysis would be needed.

If one has to go a lifetime, I think the current suggested withdrawal rates of 4 to 4 1/2 % are very, very conservative, and the projections to needing to get to, for example, age 100, don't seem to account for the severly reduced spending one does in their 90's.. Our personal viewpoint was, if we run out of money at age 90 (except for ss and pension), call the kids and tell them to come get us!
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whitemiata



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 508

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

retired@48 congratulations!!!

Your story is inspirational. My wife and I are looking at a potential retirement when I'm 49 (she's not currently working, if she went back to work she'd also be able to retire at the same time at age 43).

I have a question about your piramid thing.

I read it and re-read it, but no matter how I tried to picture it it sounded to me like a recipe for buying higher than necessary.

Maybe you think it's successful on a behavioural level. It might be financially somewhat inferior to buying again even if the value drops, but if you get to sleep at night and don't freak out and sell at the wrong time the *loss* is money well spent.

Is that it?

Alessandro

P.S. Count me in among those interested in seeing your 100 things to do list.
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Kurmudjon



Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Not yet where I wanna be.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call me crazy but this sounds like a "fantasy" on the part of the OP. Take one part reality and mix in some 'numbers'. The OP is way more interested in replies than someone who had actually done what he espouses. He seems to be most interested in encouraging responses, etc. Maybe a financial writer trying to put an article together? If not, a thousand pardons.
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