Bogleheads

[BruceM]

My wife and I returned from a kind of exploratory trip to Arizone, just doing some preliminary scouting for a possible second home there. We love our home in the Northwest, but the cold and rainy winters are annoying us more than they used to.

Here's what we found

Sun City West and Sun City Grand are 55 and older communities of some of the best kept and cleanest communities we've ever seen. Here are some of the positives we found:

1. Reasonable prices. 2 BR 2 Bath stucco with double garage starting at about $140K. All with low maintenace yards whose plants seem limited to cactii, citrus fruit trees, palm trees and more colors of gravel than I knew existed.

2. According to some of the locals we spoke to, about a zero crime rate

3. Property taxes were all < $1,000/yr, as these communities property taxes do not include school district funding

4. Large community activity centers with pools, tennis courts, bowling alleys, theaters (live plays and cinema) and lots and lots of golf courses

5. Extensive shopping

6. Very clean. No litter, no weeds, no junk cars or crap collecting on properties...and this without, so we're told, an HOA or CCRCs and their associated annual costs

Drawbacks:

a. Annual 'activity fees' of abut $375/person/yr. Each personn listed on the title must pay this each year

b. High water costs (as one might expect)

c. A loooooong drive from Oregon

Has anyone else gone down this path and have anything that you can offer?

BruceM

[flowerbuyer]

Hi:
I have several friends who have "snowbird" homes in Arizona: Pebble Creek in Goodyear; Sun City Grand; and Trilogy. They are all very happy spending their winters in the sunshine instead of the gray skies and rain we have in the winter. (I am from the Puget Sound area in Washington).

My husband and I bought a small home in an over 55 community near LaQuinta in California nine years ago. We love it, and we are on a very nice golf course. Our property taxes are higher than AZ, but water costs are lower where we are, as are power costs. No good deals here in our neighborhood right now. Heard there are lots of good deals in AZ, however.

Our friends drive to AZ in the fall, and back to Washington in the spring. We do the same, and fly home for the holidays. Our yearly out-of-pocket costs, including yard maintenance, utilities, taxes, HOA dues run a little under $9K per year. Unlike most of the homes in Arizona, we do have lawns, flowers, and citrus trees which require year-around care.
One thing a friend of ours told us when we were comtemplating buying the house was to be sure to figure in "enjoyment" when penciling it out.

[kidsgone]

I don't live in such a retirement community but do live in the general area and am familiar with the Del Webb properties due to working with them for several years and having the opportunity to travel to all of their sites throughout the USA. When you list your positives, are you stating your observations or what you are hearing from others? If from others then I would suggest coming back and acutally living in the community for a week. If you are a good golfer then you might be disappointed in the calibur of golf courses, particularly at the older communities, for they are aimed at the higher handicap senior players (ie flat, wide fairways, easy greens, few hazards). A small group of residents complain that the activity centers are too crowded for the number of participants. Overall, most folks who buy a home in a Del Webb Sun City are pleased and have few complaints. I think if an age restricted community is for you then Del Webb is the leader in this field and should be given a serious consideration.

[mlebuf]

I don't live on the Sun City side of the Valley but I have met and know a number of people who do. Everyone I have met who lives there loves it. They all talk about the enormous number of clubs and activities that are available.

I recently met some friends in Oro Valley, a suburb of Tucson that has a large number of snow bird homes. It's a beautiful area and if you don't mind being 90 minutes from a large city the size of Phoenix, you may want to look at it too.

Oregon in the summer and Arizona in the winter sounds like a good working definition of heaven to me. One location is a great compliment to the other.
_________________
Best wishes,
Michael

Invest your time actively and your money passively.

[FrugalInvestor]

We went part way down that path and decided to rent.

As far as dollars and cents, we estimated our out-of-pocket costs at around $10,000 year and we are able to rent for $2,500 per month or less. On the flip side, there was the reduction in income as a result of those dollars being invested in the house. So we would have, say, $250,000 not earning income plus costing us another $10,000 per year. It just didn't pencil out for us.

In thinking it over we realized that renting allows us much more flexibility and peace of mind. We can decide on a different community or a different geographic location altogether (which we have done this year). In addition, there is no worry about the house when we are not there.

That was our thought process.
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"Complexity is easy; Simplicity is hard." -Edmund Keane

[BigFoot48]

My in-laws live in Sun City West and we have visited them many times, both when we lived in Scottsdale and now Tucson. They live in a subdivision of single family homes backing to a green belt, where the exterior maintenance is handled by the neighborhood association. This makes for easy living. Many of their neighbors are only there during the winter.

We like SCW very much, as the homes are nice and well-maintained, and its very quiet there. In recent years, due to growth of the surrounding area, retailers and restaurants have sprung up along Grand Ave at the southern edge of the town, making shopping very easy.

Phoenix is now a really big city, but the Sun City areas are still removed. An outer loop (303) is planned that is on the western side of SCW, which increase access and probably development whenever that starts up again.
_________________
Patrick
Two-time Top-10 Diehard S&P500 Picker; Multi-Time Loser

[BruceM]

Thanks for the informative responses.

Yes, we are also mulling the idea of simply renting for the 3 months or so in the Winter.

But I think the best observation is to go down and live there for a period of time to learn all of the detail.

But the thought of 80 degrees and 10% humidity January through March is just too appealing....

BruceM

[norookie]

[sschullo]

[conundrum]

We evaluated second home possibilities and after running the numbers and looking at advantages and disadvantages we came to the same conclusion as FrugalInvestor. For us owning a second home did not make sense and we decided to rent when we are ready for the second home experience. I recall recent recommendations (sorry, I don't remember the source) that one should have assets in the 10 million range before considering a second home. I'm not sure about that figure but certainly for us renting makes more sense.

Good luck

Drum

[WealthBuilder]

Bruce,

Owning a second home is more involved than you may be aware of. I recommend that you rent first and buy later.

We live in Southern Arizona and there are lots of retirement communities (active and otherwise). In addition, many people own second/third homes inside and outside of retirement communities. See a few examples at www(dot)retirementtucson(dot)com.

Despite the appearance, lots of things can grow in the desert and they seem to grow all year long. If you want to own a house in a nice and safe community, it is likely that you will have to deal with a HOA and the related CC&Rs. They tend to require homeowners to maintain their houses and yards to certain standards. If you fail to meet their standards, you could be fined and that’s quite a hassle.

In addition, you will need to hire someone locally to take care of your house while you are away for 8-9 months. They need to weed your yard (yes, things do grow in the desert and they grow fast during the summer monsoon season), trim the bushes/trees, pick up debris from cacti, water plants that are not on drip irrigation systems, etc. They will also run your indoor appliances and faucets/toilets periodically so that the indoor plumbing won’t be plugged up in your absence. Water is very hard here and outdoor drip irrigation systems have a tendency to flare up and water may flood your yard and the neighborhood in your absence. You want to befriend your immediate neighbors so that they can notify you (or your snow bird home service company) in the event of problems with your irrigation system, and potential damage to your house/yard/plants during the monsoon season.

In other words, owning a second home in the desert comes with more expenses and surprises than you may have expected. So, just rent first. Best of luck with your choice.

[LH]

[BruceM]

[touchdowntodd]

i agree on making the most of your opportunity.. my wife and I talk about renting in several places during retirement.. perhaps a winter in florida, a winter in AZ, winter in texas... just renting a house for a couple months at a time... lower cost, no long term commitment..

you are very worried about crime etc, remember that if you are that concerned im sure you will not pick anywher that has issues.. NOWHERE has no crime..

i agree that moving around would prove more fun, but if you LOVE AZ, go for it.. i LOVE so-cal, wife even has family there, but after a month or two there i go NUTS.. i like to mix it up.. i live where i live cause i LOVE it.. but fun time is more fun when there is a different view to me

[bobh]

You didn't list it but wouldn't lack of diversity be a "drawback" at the communities you mentioned? Wouldn't you like the chance to live around people younger than you--who know things you don't know? As long as they're clean and not involved in any criminal activities.

[joninjeff]

I moved to Arizona last year and rented for 6 months before I purchased a home. I plan to stay here about 8-9 months a year and possibly buy a condo around Flagstaff to escape the summer heat. I'm a golfer, 3.2 handicap, I looked at most of the retirement places and decided not to locate in one at this time. I felt the better housing buys are not in the retirement properties. I didn't want to be around "old people" all the time. I'm 62 very active and I just wanted more variety in golf courses and age of people I play with on a regular basis. I may change my mind as I get older but for now its not for me. The plus side of Sun City or other retirement places, easier to meet people, you don't have to drive far for golf, lots of activities if you want to participate. I agree with some of the other comments, rent for awhile before you buy, prices are still in favor of the buyer and I don't see that changing for a year or two. Look at the newer retirement areas before you settle in Sun City, newer and the age of residents is lower, The South East area has some nice ones too, good luck !!!