Must I move to another state so I can prosper?

[Nahum]

I have a dilemma, I want to buy real estate someday, I live in NYC which according to the media is one of the most expensive cities to live. I manage quite well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I love the city life yet buying a brownstone or 2 family house is seeming more like a dream than a reality. I don't make a lot of money but I'm working on it.

My question is should I move out NYC for purely economic reasons? I really can't imagine myself living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers. I have emotional ties to where I live. Should I move or keep living and working where I live now?

[prudent]

That's a tradeoff, like many life choices, and I don't think anyone but you can decide if that's the right answer.

We could have bought a bigger, nicer house, but we decided to beef up the savings instead.
I had a couple of long-term friends who became moochers, so I parted ways with them.
I could have moved to another city to make more money, but I liked living here so I stayed.

From the way you posed the question, you don't want to move and will choose living in NYC over having real estate.

[yobria]

NYC is expensive because it has a large number of high paying jobs. I'd try to land one of those, if that's where you want to stay.

[bottlecap]

If you aren't the beneficiary of a rent-controlled property, you need a high-paying job, because what's left is necessarily expensive.

For most people, the answer to your question is yes, you must move to really prosper. I know people in NYC that have pretty high-paying salaries and they can only afford to rent small apartments. For most of them, their plan is to eventually move so that they can live better.

JT

[lws6772]

For those of us that love home ground, we are never truly happy somewhere else.

[Booper]

I have a dilemma, I want to buy real estate someday, I live in NYC which according to the media is one of the most expensive cities to live. I manage quite well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I love the city life yet buying a brownstone or 2 family house is seeming more like a dream than a reality. I don't make a lot of money but I'm working on it.

My question is should I move out NYC for purely economic reasons? I really can't imagine myself living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers. I have emotional ties to where I live. Should I move or keep living and working where I live now?

Have you looked into the foreclosure market? Sites like trulia.com allow you to search for foreclosures in your neighborhood.

[RFP]

I left NY a number of years ago and am still not sure if I did the right thing. A nice house is great to have but may not make up for all of the family and friends you won't be seeing as much. You may find more value in staying where you are or near where you are than moving out of state into your dream house.

[GregLee]

Commute.

[VictoriaF]

I have a dilemma, I want to buy real estate someday, I live in NYC which according to the media is one of the most expensive cities to live. I manage quite well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I love the city life yet buying a brownstone or 2 family house is seeming more like a dream than a reality. I don't make a lot of money but I'm working on it.

My question is should I move out NYC for purely economic reasons? I really can't imagine myself living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers. I have emotional ties to where I live. Should I move or keep living and working where I live now?

pros·per (prspr)
intr.v. pros·pered, pros·per·ing, pros·pers
To be fortunate or successful, especially in terms of one's finances; thrive.

Note that while to prosper is particularly related to one's finances, it has a more comprehensive meaning that includes general good fortune. If you will be miserable outside New York, you will not be considered prosperous. There are other ways to build prosperity than home ownership. As the others have said, get a high paying job in the City and enjoy what you've got.

Victoria

[BL]

Yes..

[Glenn]

I really don't envy you, because there is no good solution if you "really can't imagine living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers." I've lived in the West my whole life and know that living in any of the eastern metropolises would be a new definition of hell for me. However, I base that on extensive travels and sabbaticals spent there.

So, my question is: have you sampled living in other places?

[Fallible]

I have a dilemma, I want to buy real estate someday, I live in NYC which according to the media is one of the most expensive cities to live. I manage quite well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I love the city life yet buying a brownstone or 2 family house is seeming more like a dream than a reality. I don't make a lot of money but I'm working on it.

My question is should I move out NYC for purely economic reasons? I really can't imagine myself living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers. I have emotional ties to where I live. Should I move or keep living and working where I live now?

I thought it interesting that you didn't list any reasons for wanting to own real estate, whereas you listed many strong reasons to stay: born and raised in Brooklyn, love the city life, can't imagine living anywhere else, have emotional ties to where you live, expect to make more money. That, plus not knowing your age (how long would it take you to make enough money to buy), make it hard to comment. But if you haven't already, I'd carefully list the pros and cons of owning real estate, especially the cons.

[Dave76]

I have a dilemma, I want to buy real estate someday, I live in NYC which according to the media is one of the most expensive cities to live. I manage quite well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I love the city life yet buying a brownstone or 2 family house is seeming more like a dream than a reality. I don't make a lot of money but I'm working on it.

My question is should I move out NYC for purely economic reasons? I really can't imagine myself living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers. I have emotional ties to where I live. Should I move or keep living and working where I live now?

Follow the rest of us to the Hudson Valley. Nobody who has moved up here has ever moved back -- nobody I know, anyway.

[Alex Frakt]

Debating political policy, which includes rent control, is completely off-topic here. I have already removed several OT posts from this thread. Any further posts on this issue will be deleted and the author warned.

[ilmartello]

Your cost of living may be higher, but your income perhaps is also higher than if you lived in somewhere with a low of cost of living

If you live in Manhattan, you can commute from Long Island or other places where real estate is more reasonable if you have an urging to own real estate, but your primary investment tools to build wealth should be stocks'bonds, reits.

[Nahum]

Thanks for the replies everyone, my travels aren't extensive but I have been to Houston, San Antonio, Miami, Hollywood, Florida, Orlando, and Los Angeles. Nice places to visit but to live is another story, especially Houston. I hate driving, I don't like Long Island too much.

I live with my parents, I"m 29 currently earning $30,000. My goal is to eventually become a systems administrator. I just feel like that time is slipping away to buy any real estate property for myself for investment reasons and because given a choice I would stay here most of my life. I thank you Victoria for those words of wisdom I understand that owning a piece of land does not equal happiness there is more to prosperity than that. If I did have to live anywhere else I probably would be miserable.

[xerty24]

I live with my parents, I"m 29 currently earning $30,000. My goal is to eventually become a systems administrator. I just feel like that time is slipping away to buy any real estate property for myself for investment reasons and because given a choice I would stay here most of my life.

Now, while your salary is still quite low, get yourself on all the waiting lists for subsidized housing. Then you can lock in some very low housing costs (assuming you eventually move out to your own place), and this will let you save lots more money towards an eventual RE purchase down the road.

[Grt2bOutdoors]

I have a dilemma, I want to buy real estate someday, I live in NYC which according to the media is one of the most expensive cities to live. I manage quite well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I love the city life yet buying a brownstone or 2 family house is seeming more like a dream than a reality. I don't make a lot of money but I'm working on it.

My question is should I move out NYC for purely economic reasons? I really can't imagine myself living anywhere else no matter how hard I crunch the numbers. I have emotional ties to where I live. Should I move or keep living and working where I live now?

Native NY'er here so I can identify with what you are saying. First, don't make any rash decisions.
Compare the pros and cons of NY and NYC to the other states you are thinking about.

Thing to consider:
1) Job mobility - my company has offices in other states where there are only 2-4 employers, as you can imagine turnover is much less as are opportunities for advancement.
2) Income - compare NYC wage levels to your target state, you will find they are likely to be less, sometimes substantially so. Even if your wages are low now, it will not always be like that.
3) Family - it can be a valuable safety net as well as emotional support network that you will not have if you move to another location far away - telephone calls are not the same.
4) Services - compare what is available to you in NYC - trains, buses, civic - museums,parks,beaches - mobility is often underappreciated.
5) Real estate - what is your target price you are thinking of? Maybe you should look at other neighborhoods - there are 5 boroughs in NYC. Brownstones though are overpriced today, 20 years ago they were overpriced, 30 years ago you could have bought a brownstone in Flatbush or Park Slope for 35-40K, but then again you usually risked your life everytime you walked out the door - it was that "bad".

[Grt2bOutdoors]

Thanks for the replies everyone, my travels aren't extensive but I have been to Houston, San Antonio, Miami, Hollywood, Florida, Orlando, and Los Angeles. Nice places to visit but to live is another story, especially Houston. I hate driving, I don't like Long Island too much.

I live with my parents, I"m 29 currently earning $30,000. My goal is to eventually become a systems administrator. I just feel like that time is slipping away to buy any real estate property for myself for investment reasons and because given a choice I would stay here most of my life. I thank you Victoria for those words of wisdom I understand that owning a piece of land does not equal happiness there is more to prosperity than that. If I did have to live anywhere else I probably would be miserable.

My parents bought their first home when they were 47 - they did it on substantially less income in comparable terms to your income and prices then were equally high as were the interest rates - 12%. Think about that a 12% interest rate! You have a fine goal, but you have to be realistic - no bank is going to give you a mortgage of any substantial amount without significant income/assets. The only way to get that income/assets or both is with time and persistence.

I agree with Victoria, you can be happy without property, we were even in those tough economic times.

Don't give up, keep chugging!

[Grt2bOutdoors]

Thanks for the replies everyone, my travels aren't extensive but I have been to Houston, San Antonio, Miami, Hollywood, Florida, Orlando, and Los Angeles. Nice places to visit but to live is another story, especially Houston. I hate driving, I don't like Long Island too much.

I live with my parents, I"m 29 currently earning $30,000. My goal is to eventually become a systems administrator. I just feel like that time is slipping away to buy any real estate property for myself for investment reasons and because given a choice I would stay here most of my life. I thank you Victoria for those words of wisdom I understand that owning a piece of land does not equal happiness there is more to prosperity than that. If I did have to live anywhere else I probably would be miserable.

If you are willing to look at Habitat for Humanity, they are building apartments for folks who make minimum income with below market interest rates and below market prices (like $150K) but there are restrictions that come with these propertys - no flipping, must be owner occupied, etc. and some of the neighborhoods are on the cusp of being gentrified, some are still in some very tough neighborhoods.

[Grt2bOutdoors]

Your cost of living may be higher, but your income perhaps is also higher than if you lived in somewhere with a low of cost of living

If you live in Manhattan, you can commute from Long Island or other places where real estate is more reasonable if you have an urging to own real estate, but your primary investment tools to build wealth should be stocks'bonds, reits.

Long Island is no longer affordable, the cost of living there is comparable to living in NYC when accounting for taxes, commuting expense, property taxes, etc.

[NMK1]

I agree with Victoria. You don't have to own property to prosper or be happy.

Property is a place to live, not necessarily an investment. Thinking of it as an investment is what got me stuck in a house. I own a house and I don't think I am any happier or prosperous than I would be if I rented. If anything it is the contrary. Why buy somewhere to commute when you really want to be in a certain place to live? If you do buy, great, you own a house, but then you won't want to spend any time there. Your real choice is buy in an area you do not like and potentially be miserable (and stuck) or rent in an area you love and be happy. Seems like a no brainer to me.

You are 29, what is the rush to buy? And I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but with a $30K salary in NYC you are a long road away from buying. I have friends making over $100k in NYC and they rent a shoebox, but love every second of it there.

[Nahum]

Your right NMK1, I wasn't thinking of buying now I see myself saving like crazy for at least 5 years before buying anything. I would hope that in 5 years my salary would rise with the job change. In 5 years anything can happen, paying 12% interest in a mortgage seems out of this world, from another age long ago yet it happened in the 80's.

[reggiesimpson]

Stay where you are.

[V572625694]

The OP's question highlights two factors contributing to our current unemployment rate:

(1) Better jobs may be available elsewhere but many people would rather have the comforts only available in the communities they grew up in.

(2) A lot of people are having a difficult time letting go of the mistaken (we now know) belief that owning your dwelling always makes more sense than renting.

If we were purely economic creatures we'd all be living in brand-new 2,000-square-foot single-family houses in the Dallas exurbs that we bought for $150,000. Fortunately people are a lot more complicated and interesting than that!

[Valuethinker]

I live with my parents, I"m 29 currently earning $30,000. My goal is to eventually become a systems administrator. I just feel like that time is slipping away to buy any real estate property for myself for investment reasons and because given a choice I would stay here most of my life.

Now, while your salary is still quite low, get yourself on all the waiting lists for subsidized housing. Then you can lock in some very low housing costs (assuming you eventually move out to your own place), and this will let you save lots more money towards an eventual RE purchase down the road.

AFAIK those waiting lists give priority to distressed applicants first, on ranking of need: eg homeless people, single parents with children, people on other forms of state support, disabled etc. then schoolteachers, hospital workers, police etc.

Usually as a single person you never get off the queue. You are just never 'at risk' enough.

NYC may be different, but that's certainly how social housing works in the UK. A place like London, the waiting list for single people not in the above categories runs in effect, over 100 years.

[xerty24]

I live with my parents, I"m 29 currently earning $30,000. My goal is to eventually become a systems administrator. I just feel like that time is slipping away to buy any real estate property for myself for investment reasons and because given a choice I would stay here most of my life.

Now, while your salary is still quite low, get yourself on all the waiting lists for subsidized housing. Then you can lock in some very low housing costs (assuming you eventually move out to your own place), and this will let you save lots more money towards an eventual RE purchase down the road.

AFAIK those waiting lists give priority to distressed applicants first, on ranking of need: eg homeless people, single parents with children, people on other forms of state support, disabled etc. then schoolteachers, hospital workers, police etc.

Usually as a single person you never get off the queue. You are just never 'at risk' enough.

NYC may be different, but that's certainly how social housing works in the UK. A place like London, the waiting list for single people not in the above categories runs in effect, over 100 years.

NYC is different - it's a combination of a waiting list and a lottery, but anyone under the income threshold is eligible regardless of need. There are more "distressed" social services, but you don't want to live in those places.

[Nahum]

Maybe Habitat for Humanity would be an option but I prefer finding a foreclosure or a good deal, I'm giving myself a 5 year window hopefully I can find a way to increase my income in the meantime. there are 4 boroughs to look at (Manhattan is out of the question) but Brooklyn is dear to me. With the Barclays center opening up I'm afraid all of Brooklyn will shoot to the roof. You guys confirmed my gut feeling I value mobility more than anything. Especially with cities like Philly, Boston, DC within 3-4 hours away I feel like I'm never bored.

[Valuethinker]

Maybe Habitat for Humanity would be an option but I prefer finding a foreclosure or a good deal, I'm giving myself a 5 year window hopefully I can find a way to increase my income in the meantime. there are 4 boroughs to look at (Manhattan is out of the question) but Brooklyn is dear to me. With the Barclays center opening up I'm afraid all of Brooklyn will shoot to the roof. You guys confirmed my gut feeling I value mobility more than anything. Especially with cities like Philly, Boston, DC within 3-4 hours away I feel like I'm never bored.

Well there is the Bronx.

And the lesser parts of Queens.

I suspect there will be places (East Brooklyn? Brownsville?) that are not likely to gentrify in hurry.

The usual trick is to start where you would like to live, then work 'down' in terms of further out and/or less pleasant, til you find a place you *can* afford.

One cannot, in a major metropolis, expect to be able to live where one wants to live. Not unless one is truly fortunate or truly upper income. That's one of the reasons people commute to London from 60 miles+ away, paying rail tickets that are easily £5k ($8000) pa. In fact I have colleagues who commute over 120 miles each way.

[JPH]

If you're really enjoying your life there, then stay at least a while longer. There is nothing wrong with renting a place to live. If things change (for better or worse), then your choice could become much easier.

[dyangu]

Are you single? Planning to have a family in the future? If you do, do you really want to raise kids on $30k income in NY, and possibly have your children go through the same thing in the future? The later you move, the harder it gets.
I'm sure you can find a similar job that pays $30k a year in a lower cost of living city. Maybe somewhere within driving distance of NY so you can go back to visit friends and family.

[rob]

I've lived in several countries and various places in each... and there ain't no easy answers because if your like me you really want a mix that does not exist. I miss each place for various reasons and yet parts about each drove me nuts.

As corny as it is - draw a line down a piece of paper and start doing the good & bad. When you get to the end, the good's will be worse than you expect and the bad's will be better then you expect. Try and be honest..... so say you put great theater as a "good" and yet you only go once in a blue moon... guess what, you can do that in Iowa too

Good luck with whatever you try......

[Needtoknow]

I believe that you really need to determine what your goals are and then prioritize them. Once you do that, then everything falls into place.

I moved to California. I believed at the time I could get more work in the acting field back then at the tender age of 24. When I left, NYC was quite dangerous and I had a baby boy that I did not want to grow up in that environment. I visited San Diego and loved it. Initially, I had a low paying job while getting acting jobs here and there, but as my family grew I needed to make a decision after a few years and became a regular working stiff. However, I was a lucky working stiff because I LOVED what I did as a high school teacher.

Moving from NYC requires you to make some changes. First, most places are very boring compared to NYC. Fortunately, for me I went to a small college in a small town in Pennsylvania where I stayed most summers working. This helped me prepare for a slower lifestyle. Secondly, leaving NY forces you to learn how to drive. I did not drive in NY and I finally learned at got a license at 28. If you can't drive, then you are really limited because very few places in country never mind the world has the extensive all day/all night public transportation system that NYC has.

I will say that one does not realize the lifestyle they live in NYC until you have been elsewhere and adapted to your new surroundings for a while. Once you do that and get comfortable, you really see the difference. When I go back to NYC now, I have fun and enjoy the food I grew up on as a kid, but I cannot ever imagine living there again.

As for owning a home, it's all relative. If I could afford a really nice apartment in Manhattan, that would have been the ultimate. I live in a very nice house here Orange County now and that's the ultimate. However, as I start thinking about things as I get older, I would love to have a much smaller home or a townhouse so I would have less maintenance.

It important that we all realize that what we want in our 20's may and probably will be much different what we will want in our 40's and then change again in our 60's. Also, as we reach certain goals, we start to realize different things or come to understand things differently and then our desires differ.

So all that being said, make your goals, determine where you belive your happiness will lie, and then make the decision for now. You may find that your happiness today will be a different happiness tomorrow.

Come to southern California and you may never go back like me.

[retcaveman]

Recent article from the WSJ on this very subject. Enjoy.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

[epilnk]

Location, location, location. There's really no way around it; you always have to trade off the desirability of the location against the higher cost of owning property in that location. Everyone weighing location vs price has a different estimate of where to position the fulcrum, depending on what they value most. You don't have to move to another state to proper, but you might be better off doing so if your goal is to become a real estate baron.

[epilnk]

Recent article from the WSJ on this very subject. Enjoy.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

Wow! The author of that article needs to get out of his ivory tower a little more often, and spend some time among the people he is analyzing. Because while he listed some genuine limitations, he missed the most obvious factor limiting mobility - the interdependency of lower income families on their communities for support. When you're just scraping by, it's your friends and family who carry you on those inevitable weeks when you dip below the line. People without reserves simply cannot afford to pick up and move away from the friends who can lend $20 or $100 through payday, the brother in law who knows how to repair plumbing, the aunt who babysits in exchange for rides to the dialysis clinic, etc., etc. There is a valuable barter economy that facilitates getting by on low wages, and that is not something to be thrown away lightly.

People whose skills are a dime a dozen are not usually able to secure jobs before relocating, making the relocation an expensive risk. A one time voucher would make relocation much more feasable for people without the cash necessary to make the move, but unless the new job pays well enough to provide real security - more likely at higher levels of education - the worker remains vulnerable to minor economic hardships that can snowball into major ones. So it make sense that low education workers will hold out hope for a job in their own communities even when they know that their job prospects are statistically better elsewhere.

[SGM]

I left NYC and had four moves to different states as each move increased my income. But the main thing was the opportunity to do interesting things and see places I never dreamed I would be able to.

[blevine]

I grew up in NYC area and also work in IT.
Still live in the area though had stints living elsewhere.

Couple of comments/experiences :

I considered staying in Boston after graduating from school, loved it there.
But the economy in NYC was much better at the time, more career opportunities
and family in NY. So I came back.

Funny , many of my relatives found that their best economic opportunities
were outside NY so after I came back, over the years many relatives drifted away
to other states, across the country.

While I think family is important you cant necessarily make your decisions around
others as our economy is such that people need to be mobile to succeed in many careers.
Not always true, but could impact many people you know.

Also economic opportunity is a point in time decision, the career you pick and the
location where you find the opportunity. My college town of Boston went into
deep localized recession within a year after my graduation so staying wasn't a great
choice in terms of getting career experience. Was cheap to live there but if you do
not establish your career that is a long term problem. At the time NYC was the place to do that.

Right now with a nationwide economic weakness, not sure where the best opportunities are for
your stated goal of systems administrator. I can say many of such jobs are off shored.
You need to find a job where you do something that isn't easily done off shore, and has some prospects
for growth even.

My recommendation would be to focus more on career and building a nest egg.
The more/better experience you have and more savings you have, the more free you are to
have choices. If you can do that in NY, great. If the best opportunity is elsewhere,
(money and career growth) you might consider trying it but RENT do not buy. You can
always come back if you feel that strongly and have learned enough to get a higher paying
job here. Not saying you cant accomplish this in NY, it is possible, but focus on the right goals.
Career and saving a nest egg. Buying a home is a next step after these goals, once you are settled
on career, family situation etc.

[imagardener]

1. Put effort into your career
2. Marry well to a like-minded New Yorker
3. Convince your folks to move to Boca and buy their home from them (or your in-laws if they have a nicer home).