Poll: When my kid entered or enters college ....

[livesoft]

I thought of a poll and here it is:

When my first child entered or enters college, my stock/bond/cash assets were how many times a year of college expenses?

And "assets" include IRAs, 401(k)s, 403(b)s, taxable accounts, but not physical real estate or the value of a business.

If you do not have a child in college, but expect that eventually may happen, you may project to the future and answer.

<= means "less than or equal to"

As an example, suppose you have $500,000 in all your accounts and it cost $50,000 to set your kid to college for 1 year. In that case, you would probably select the "More than 5X, but <= 10X" option. But if college only cost $49,999 or you had $500,001 in your accounts, you would select a different option.

I realize this is similar to a net worth poll or a liquid assets poll convoluted with the cost of college. I am trying to see if folks really have no money for college expenses or if they are sandbagging and trying to get the most financial aid possible. Unlike the FAFSA, retirement accounts should be included in the assets asked about in this poll. Furthermore, debt should be excluded from this poll, even if you are upside down on a mortgage.

Thanks for your votes.

[ram]

I am the guy who started the MIT vs UW Madison thread. My first child went to UW Madison (state U for me). I answered based on the UW Madison cost. My answer would have changed if she had gone to MIT.

[travellight]

Wow, how do I change my answer?

I had answered based on net worth/assets but not including pension. Huge part of my assets are in real estate though and I am not sure why those should not count. I could sell them if needed and the income from the real estate (rental income if I don't sell or liquidated equity if I did sell) would help fund the college costs. My downgrade would be tenfold with the parameters as listed (although counting the pension would offset that significantly).

[peppers]

Put (2) through college some years ago. They went on to get their masters on their own dime. And now, the grandchildren are sprouting up. Hmmmmm.....

[sscritic]

It's hard to reconstruct. When my first child started college, my wife and I both had jobs with defined benefit retirement programs; the cash value was zero (as we all know around here, you can't count a pension or social security as an asset). We had just paid off the house, so the cash was low from that, and we had loaded up the kids' UGMAs, so those assets didn't belong to us. I just voted in the 1 to 5 category. Another factor: education was always important in my family. My father gave $2500 a year to each grandchild in college, back when $2500 meant something (it was probably about 30% of that first year's cost - at times he had four grandchildren in college at the same time), so I really didn't need assets to pay for their college. What wasn't covered by my father, the kids paid for from their savings.

A few months later, my wife died and her retirement assets became cash (in a rollover IRA) and then there was the insurance money, so four months later the answer was different than when my first child started. My second child ended up paying for his college from saving his social security survivor benefits (he ended up graduating with 50% still left of what he had started with). And no, they never worked while in college (the did work in labs in their fields, but that was for the education, not the money). They do work now, and that puts me in the "you don't have to work in college to be responsible as an adult" camp in that other thread.

[555]

@OP:livesoft
If you are going to include retirement assets, then you should also include the present value of Social Security and Pensions, which could be many $100k's, even $1M's. Otherwise you penalize those of us who have neither Social Security nor Pensions, and so have to save a lot extra on our own to make up for it. If you don't believe these should be included then you can't believe other retirement savings should be included.

[livesoft]

One can often borrow against a 401(k) or 403(b) to help pay for college. I have not heard of anyone borrowing from SS or a pension plan yet. Can that happen?

[sscritic]

Well, his question is his question. It isn't a question of penalizing anyone. I interpreted the question as "cash on hand," where cash on hand included 401(k) and IRA assets that you can borrow against. I couldn't borrow against my pension or social security, so they weren't available in the same way.

[sscritic]

There should be a prize for the lowest answer. What could be more bogleheadish than "I sent my child to a school that cost $50,000 a year when I only had $10 to my name!"

[ruralavalon]

I have absolutely no idea of assets vs college expenses at that time. Our oldest started college in 1988, and I just don't remember. We had no IRA or 401k at the time. We were buying a home, but I have no idea of the equity we had in it. I do recall there was no financial assistance given to us/her, other than a part-time job in the university's library. We paid for college out of current employment income.

[555]

It's a question of fairness. If an institution treats 401k/IRA/etc.-type accounts differently to Social Security and Pensions, then I'll tell them to shove it.

If you know who these institutions are, or how to identify them, I'd appreciate the insight.

To spell out the issue, suppose a couple retires both at age 65, with no Social Security or Pensions, but with $1M in a 401k, and nothing else (maybe a house). According to
http://www.principal.com/retirement/inc ... income.htm
that could buy them an Inflation Protected 100% Joint and Survivor annuity receiving $3,000 per month.

[sscritic]

It's a question of fairness.

It's a poll. It's livesoft's poll. What does it mean for livesoft to run a fair poll? Who does he owe "fairness" to? I really don't understand your point. If you don't like this poll and the definitions it uses, why don't you start your own poll using the definitions you like? Nobody will stop you; that's how fair we all are.

Livesoft is not FAFSA. What part of "unlike the FAFSA" is confusing?

[livesoft]

I suppose the world is not fair. Suppose I am self-employed and typically put around $49K into my 401(k). Further suppose that I spend $200,000 a year on various things like cars, homes, vacations, wine, and the good life. But also suppose I basically cash-flow my lifestyle and do not save a dime in taxable accounts nor in 529 plans. Then I semi-retire and make only $100K a year, but keep putting $49K into retirement plans, so take-home pay is low. Now my kid is going to college (with his own paid-for Mercedes and I bought a condo for him to live in with cash). My 401(k) is worth say $2million, but my income is low and variable. I can drive it to zero if I want to as my homes are paid off and I have no debt. I need little cash flow to eat, pay utilities, prop taxes, insurance, and health care.

How much financial aid should I get for my kid to go to college?

[555]

It's a question of fairness.

It's a poll. It's livesoft's poll. What does it mean for livesoft to run a fair poll? Who does he owe "fairness" to? I really don't understand your point. If you don't like this poll and the definitions it uses, why don't you start your own poll using the definitions you like? Nobody will stop you; that's how fair we all are.
Livesoft is not FAFSA. What part of "unlike the FAFSA" is confusing?

livesoft clearly introduced his own notion of fairness in his OP.

I realize this is similar to a net worth poll or a liquid assets poll convoluted with the cost of college. I am trying to see if folks really have no money for college expenses or if they are sandbagging and trying to get the most financial aid possible. Unlike the FAFSA, retirement accounts should be included in the assets asked about in this poll. Furthermore, debt should be excluded from this poll, even if you are upside down on a mortgage.

I'm commenting on the post. I'm not interested in the poll. I think livesoft resents having to pay full fair, and wants to see how others could be shaken down for more so that he's shaken down for less.

[555]

I suppose the world is not fair. Suppose I am self-employed and typically put around $49K into my 401(k). Further suppose that I spend $200,000 a year on various things like cars, homes, vacations, wine, and the good life. But also suppose I basically cash-flow my lifestyle and do not save a dime in taxable accounts nor in 529 plans. Then I semi-retire and make only $100K a year, but keep putting $49K into retirement plans, so take-home pay is low. Now my kid is going to college (with his own paid-for Mercedes and I bought a condo for him to live in with cash). My 401(k) is worth say $2million, but my income is low and variable. I can drive it to zero if I want to as my homes are paid off and I have no debt. I need little cash flow to eat, pay utilities, prop taxes, insurance, and health care.

How much financial aid should I get for my kid to go to college?

This one's easy. Base the formula primarily on lifetime income. That determines what one should have saved, instead of what they did save.

[sscritic]

I think livesoft resents having to pay full fair, and wants to see how others could be shaken down for more so that he's shaken down for less.

Every person who posts about college costs wants someone else to pay ("shaken down" in your terms). Who wants to pay more so someone else can pay less? It's not I.

[dickenjb]

Well I answered 100x and the FAFSA must have worked for me, as my EFC was $99,999. Did not get anything except the unsubsidized Stafford Loan (no thanks). I think the system works pretty well.

[555]

I think livesoft resents having to pay full fair, and wants to see how others could be shaken down for more so that he's shaken down for less.

Every person who posts about college costs wants someone else to pay ("shaken down" in your terms). Who wants to pay more so someone else can pay less? It's not I.

People want to know the rules and plan accordingly. It's like a Trad v Roth discussion. People want to understand the system and plan accordingly.
Also when people discuss what the rules should be, they may genuinely be interested in fairness and the greater good, e.g. the `Buffet Rule'.

[Sam I Am]

I honestly have no idea, as all three had prepaid tuition plans and two of the three also earned generous scholarships.

Signing up for the plans was one of my best investment activities. Paying for the plans still allowed solid retirement investments.

Sam I Am

[bluelight]

My % was most likely higher than I selected, but it was 12 years ago and I really don't remember.

DD spent the first 2 years living at home and commuting to community college. That way she got the required classes like gym out of the way at a reasonable price. She went to an out of state school for the last 2 years. 3rd year I paid for out of savings, 4th year was covered by a mix of 0% promotion CC and some cash-out after I refinanced my house. In spite of my being a single parent with a deadbeat ex-DH, she graduated with zero debt.

[nisiprius]

Oops. Could you edit the poll to allow a change in votes? I'm afraid I answered the question "When my kid entered (enters) college, my 'savings for kids' college' were X times a year of college expenses."

[livesoft]

OK, folks can change their answer now.

[travellight]

nicely done, livesoft. I was able to change my vote. I based it on 50-60K per year for college expenses, and retirement assets that are liquid like 401K and IRA but not pension or SS; and no real estate counted. I am now one of the poor ones.

[nisiprius]

Thanks. I was able to correct my answer. "To err is human; to forgive, divine."

[SGM]

Due to the great elasticity of demand for college costs they could charge most anything at the more highly regarded universities. If you don't apply for a scholarship you pay full boat. If you apply for a need based scholarship they have your 1040 and they can discriminate by ability to pay. What a perfect system for the universities. Govt loans also take away the incentive for cutting costs. I have no axe to grind with any institution, I just pity those who have not had the proper guidance to avoid big debt given the tight job market and the great difficulty in paying back loans. It reminds me of friends who loaded up on credit card and car loan debt in their early 20s.

I am not sure how helpful this poll is, if you pick state u vs. privatemegabucks u the ratio is going to be so different. Also if you pick a less competitivie school, you can get a scholarship to attract your high scoring kid to go there.

[livesoft]

This poll is showing me that the respondents are not really price-sensitive as far as college for their kids goes. They can yammer about how expensive it is (there is that one thread where college-cost-inflation is ASTOUNDING going from $200K to $300K in just a few posts ), but they find a way to pay it. If that means community college or state u, then so what? They can be proud of the deal they got. If it means private elite university, then so what? They can be proud that they've got the assets to support that.

Now, it is true that for many folks here, their parents were not in the same category, so they themselves (not their parents) ended up paying quite a bit for college out of their own pockets.

No doubt this is a select group here. I am not bothered by that at all.

[bru]

nicely done, livesoft. I was able to change my vote. I based it on 50-60K per year for college expenses, and retirement assets that are liquid like 401K and IRA but not pension or SS; and no real estate counted. I am now one of the poor ones.

So if the (as of now) 10 respondents who answered >100X used your number they'd have assets of 5 to 6 million dollars. Or if they sent their kids to college 25 years ago it could be $100,000. Not sure I get the point of this poll.

[livesoft]

For the folks who answered 100X, I am assuming they sent their kid to a less expensive college or their kid got some great grants. Why did you assume that the price they paid was $50,000? Really, why? (OK, they could have $5-$6 million, too.)

For your edification, a homework problem: What is the 2011-2012 cost to send a young adult to the University of Texas in Austin for the year? Assume in-state resident.

Too often, when discussing the cost of college all the major media outlets select an expensive private university cost. I wonder what the median cost of a college education is for all folks who received undergraduate degrees in 2011? (or any other recent year?)

[555]

For the folks who answered 100X, I am assuming they sent their kid to a less expensive college or their kid got some great grants. Why did you assume that the price they paid was $50,000? Really, why? (OK, they could have $5-$6 million, too.)

For your edification, a homework problem: What is the 2011-2012 cost to send a young adult to the University of Texas in Austin for the year? Assume in-state resident.

Too often, when discussing the cost of college all the major media outlets select an expensive private university cost. I wonder what the median cost of a college education is for all folks who received undergraduate degrees in 2011? (or any other recent year?)

In-state: $24,714
Out-of-state: $47,426
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/coll ... hoolId=788

[Harold]

Well done, I was about to invoke the sscritic tag line (bogleheads.org - The Siri of Finance: for when you can't be bothered to look something up.) -- since I was interested, but didn't care enough about it to look it up myself. Only 8 minutes elapsed time -- but you all should work on your speed, I was getting a bit impatient.

[livesoft]

So think about this: If you are a parent and less than 1% of your assets go to pay for a year of college, do you really worry about the cost of a year of college? What if less than 4% of assets pay for a year of college? And you can use current income to pay for college as well.

I think the media does not help because they always seem to quote the maximum sticker price when discussing this. So do financial advisors. Also they also seem to find the unemployed music majors with $200,000 of student loans and extrapolate that everyone has loans like that.

I wonder what the median cost of an undergraduate degree was for the young adults who graduated in 2011. Any stats on that anywhere? The average cost numbers are probably not properly weighted to the number of graduates per university. That is, the UTexas number has the same weight as the Stanford number. And they use list prices before any financial grants as well which is a nice bit of "anchoring".

Of course, there are parents (mine for example) who refused to pay anything for college tuition, books, fees, transportation, incidentals. You are on your own, bup.

PS: I think $4,000 of that $24,714 UT number was for beer. I looked at the details and there is no frugality in the room & board numbers at all.

[bru]

In-state: $24,714
Out-of-state: $47,426
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/coll ... hoolId=788

>100X assets = 2.4 - 4.7 million. I know Bogleheads are ahead of many when it comes to assets but those numbers are pretty big.

[livesoft]

So if you are gonna pay $25,000 a year minimum anyways, then a private elite university education at only double that price seems cheap, doesn't it?

[Grt2bOutdoors]

In-state: $24,714
Out-of-state: $47,426
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/coll ... hoolId=788

>100X assets = 2.4 - 4.7 million. I know Bogleheads are ahead of many when it comes to assets but those numbers are pretty big.

The average Boglehead is likely not using an apples to apples comparison - the poll is flawed if the respondent is using an average tuition price paid in the past versus a current net worth. Comparing past prices with current financial position provides no value. Let's say 20 years ago you paid for your DS or DD to attend college and tuition then was $5K per year, let's say your net worth today is $500K then one would easily qualify for the 100x plus category.

[livesoft]

But the poll question was pretty clear about the "when".

[nisiprius]

For your edification, a homework problem: What is the 2011-2012 cost to send a young adult to the University of Texas in Austin for the year? Assume in-state resident.

I'm going to guess $6,000 to $8,000. I'm not entirely clear on what you include in "costs," by the way. OK. Tuition depends on the school --interesting, but ranges from $4,673 (liberal arts) to $5,369. Call it $5,000. Clearly I've underestimated.

Uh-oh... Estimated Undergraduate Flat-Rate Tuition and Fees (2010 – 2011): Texas resident $8,986 – 10,326. So this is one of these deals where "tuition" is only half the cost.

Estimated Total Cost of Undergraduate Education (Fall 2010 – Spring 2011)
Texas resident on-campus $23,596 – 24,936

I was off by a factor of three or four.

[555]

I was off by a factor of three or four.

And you were off by 19 hours and 22 minutes.

[Steelersfan]

Our kids went to college before the rapid increase in costs over the last decade and we were well up your scale.

We didn't apply for financial aid since we knew we could afford college costs better than most and wanted to let more needy kids receive it. We all escaped with zero college debt.

[bru]

Uh-oh... Estimated Undergraduate Flat-Rate Tuition and Fees (2010 – 2011): Texas resident $8,986 – 10,326. So this is one of these deals where "tuition" is only half the cost.

Yes room and board can essentially double the yearly cost. Living in a large metro area there are many colleges/universities nearby so I suppose my son could live at home to avoid that expense. But then you have commuting costs/headaches. And I do think living away from home is part of the college experience. Maybe the first two years at home and the last two (hopefully) away.

[Dave76]

Our kids went to college before the rapid increase in costs over the last decade and we were well up your scale.

We didn't apply for financial aid since we knew we could afford college costs better than most and wanted to let more needy kids receive it. We all escaped with zero college debt.

I think we fail to acknowledge the real problems:

1. We send too many people to college.

2. The increased demand for a college education is driving up the price and dumbing down the degree.

Compare the college students of today to the college students of the 1950s. There is a qualitative difference.

[livesoft]

Here's another thing with this poll to consider for those still following. There is a bit of behavioral finance going here. A little bit of anchoring, a little bit of endowment effect, and some others.

Let me give you a kind of example: Today the stock market did rather well. Not a bad day today at all. For those folks with portfolios of 25X or higher in the poll, it is possible that their portfolio today went up an entire year's worth of college expenses. So if you can make in one day what it costs to go to college, are you price sensitive anymore?

[Dave76]

Here's another thing with this poll to consider for those still following. There is a bit of behavioral finance going here. A little bit of anchoring, a little bit of endowment effect, and some others.

Let me give you a kind of example: Today the stock market did rather well. Not a bad day today at all. For those folks with portfolios of 25X or higher in the poll, it is possible that their portfolio today went up an entire year's worth of college expenses. So if you can make in one day what it costs to go to college, are you price sensitive anymore?

I don't think that's the issue. The real question we should be asking ourselves is this: Is higher education pricing itself out of the market?

[livesoft]

There is no way higher education is pricing itself out of the market. When folks stop applying, then prices may stabilize. Look at what has happened to law school applications this year.

I think it will also help if the government stops giving tax breaks to pay for college. If families get a $2000 tax break, colleges just raise their prices by $2000 to capture that extra government money.

[Dave76]

When folks stop applying, then prices may stabilize.

Yes. See my earlier post.

[getRichSlower]

For those folks with portfolios of 25X or higher in the poll, it is possible that their portfolio today went up an entire year's worth of college expenses. So if you can make in one day what it costs to go to college, are you price sensitive anymore?

This has to be one of the most specious posts on this board. Long term, people should count on investment returns of about 4% real per year, going up 4% one day is irrelevant if the market goes down 6% the next.

[555]

Here's another thing with this poll to consider for those still following. There is a bit of behavioral finance going here. A little bit of anchoring, a little bit of endowment effect, and some others.
Let me give you a kind of example: Today the stock market did rather well. Not a bad day today at all. For those folks with portfolios of 25X or higher in the poll, it is possible that their portfolio today went up an entire year's worth of college expenses. So if you can make in one day what it costs to go to college, are you price sensitive anymore?

Sophistry!

[livesoft]

Specious? Sophistry? As I already wrote:

There is a bit of behavioral finance going here.

[HardKnocker]

The choice of a particular institution for college/university has become a status symbol for even those of moderate incomes. The McMansion, the expensive car, the pricey private university, etc.

It's all become a bit silly.

[Dave76]

The choice of a particular institution for college/university has become a status symbol for even those of moderate incomes. The McMansion, the expensive car, the pricey private university, etc.

It's all become a bit silly.

True indeed. Little do they know that status is the enemy of contentment.

Young people and their parents pursue higher education because they are career/money-minded, not because they want an education. I think it's a sad situation.

[zaboomafoozarg]

In my parent's case, division by zero error. Getting a full tuition scholarship was the only option for free college, so I did that.