Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

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poundwise
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Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by poundwise »

5 reasons why Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations:

1) It would give Bogleheads members a reason to test the technology and become educated about its use
2) Admins could report on their experience so we could learn whether Bitcoin has genuine "retail" use
3) Intl users could donate fee-free
4) It would underscore that index-investing and currency innovation are harmonious rather than opposing concepts
5) It would offer Bogleheads with portfolios suddenly overweighted in digital currency an outlet to rebalance :)

I'm completely serious. I think this would be a fantastic way for Bogleheads to learn about Bitcoin, while at the same time helping support this fantastic community.
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tetractys
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by tetractys »

Bitcoins are great for anonymously making untraceable illegal transactions through TOR. Would it be a good idea for the Bogleheads to receive such funds or be associated with any of that? -- Tet
Bruin
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Bruin »

The internet is great for anonymously sharing difficult to trace copyright materials (ie piracy) such as music, movies, tv shows, etc. Would it be a good idea for the Bogleheads to be associated with the internet?

Just because a medium can be used for inappropriate activities, doesn't mean it can't be used for legitimate activities and the potential for inappropriate use should not preclude people from using it for legitimate activities.
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hollowcave2
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by hollowcave2 »

I guess I could use some education about these bitcoins. Seems to me that their only value is that people think they are worth something.

Now, I guess we can say the same thing about U.S. money. But I think there is a big difference between the full faith and credit of the United States versus a popular (at the moment) internet currency. I have faith in the society and ability of the United States. What assurance do I have about a Bitcoin? How is its value backed up? Seems like a bitcoin's value can collapse at any moment once people look around and realize there's nothing to it. This would not likely happen to US currency because IMHO the fabric of our society itself is its guarantee. Now, I guess you can also put faith in those who honor Bitcoins. But that would be a much smaller pool and if the value collapsed, our society still rolls on.

I hope Bitcoins succeed. I'm all for new experimentation in a new currency. But I also remember tulips.

Have a Great Thanksgiving everyone!! We have a great community here.
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nisiprius
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by nisiprius »

I don't particularly see any reason why Bogleheads.org should adopt a mission of promoting or facilitating the use of bitcoins. I don't see any reason Bogleheads to give priority to learning about bitcoins, over learning about collectible "sulphite" marbles, or molybdenum futures, or Berkshares. And I surely don't see any need to "underscore that index-investing and currency innovation are harmonious rather than opposing concepts" since I don't happen to think that they are...

I think this is something the forum managers decide, and that they should and will decide on purely pragmatic grounds--what's convenient and works and doesn't take too much time or effort. I doubt that bitcoin meets any of these criteria today. In a couple of years it might be just as easy to accept bitcoins as PayPal. In fact if bitcoin lives up to the hype, in a couple of years PayPal might accept payments in bitcoins and the forum managers won't have to do anything at all.

I'll believe bitcoins are mainstream when Jack Bogle mentions them. I have an "oops" emoticon all cued up and ready if he already has and if someone can quote what he has said about them.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by VictoriaF »

nisiprius wrote:I'll believe bitcoins are mainstream when Jack Bogle mentions them.
I'll believe Bitcoins are mainstream when I can use them in bitcoin laundromats.

Victoria
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ourbrooks
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by ourbrooks »

Why limit things to Bitcoins? Why not include Litecoins and PPCoins and other virtual currencies? I've got a whole bunch of Ourbrookscoins which I'm willing to donate in an effort to get them more widely accepted.
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Ged
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Ged »

tetractys wrote:Bitcoins are great for anonymously making untraceable illegal transactions through TOR. Would it be a good idea for the Bogleheads to receive such funds or be associated with any of that? -- Tet
The idea the Bitcoin is untraceable is false. In fact every Bitcoin transaction is public and highly traceable.

You can try establishing pseudonyms under which you do the transactions to maintain anonymity, but it's tricky to make them hold up under careful investigation.

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questi ... ansactions
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poundwise
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by poundwise »

nisiprius wrote:[Forum managers] should and will decide on purely pragmatic grounds.
For forum managers as competent as ours, this is trivial to set up, and there is already space on the site devoted to donation options. Further, this is a means for international members (or domestic members, for that matter) to donate fee free. Finally, if international charities and internet services are any precedent, this channel has the potential to significantly increase donations.

Passing the "pragmatic" test is the easy part. It's the philosophy that is likely to be the major obstacle.
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telemark
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by telemark »

hollowcave2 wrote:Seems like a bitcoin's value can collapse at any moment once people look around and realize there's nothing to it. This would not likely happen to US currency because IMHO the fabric of our society itself is its guarantee.
Reminds me of this classic story from The Onion

U.S. Economy Grinds To Halt As Nation Realizes Money Just A Symbolic, Mutually Shared Illusion
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VictoriaF
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by VictoriaF »

telemark wrote:Reminds me of this classic story from The Onion

U.S. Economy Grinds To Halt As Nation Realizes Money Just A Symbolic, Mutually Shared Illusion
It's about time for The Onion to tell us what Bitcoin is all about.

Victoria
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

poundwise wrote:
nisiprius wrote:[Forum managers] should and will decide on purely pragmatic grounds.
For forum managers as competent as ours, this is trivial to set up, and there is already space on the site devoted to donation options. Further, this is a means for international members (or domestic members, for that matter) to donate fee free. Finally, if international charities and internet services are any precedent, this channel has the potential to significantly increase donations.

Passing the "pragmatic" test is the easy part. It's the philosophy that is likely to be the major obstacle.
Yes, that's right, by ignoring all the other items raised you can dismiss the pragmatism one by an assertion that the volunteer forum managers should set it up just like you said in the first place.

+1 for poundwise on debating points. Your argument is irregardless.

PJW
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VictoriaF
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by VictoriaF »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
poundwise wrote:
nisiprius wrote:[Forum managers] should and will decide on purely pragmatic grounds.
For forum managers as competent as ours, this is trivial to set up, and there is already space on the site devoted to donation options. Further, this is a means for international members (or domestic members, for that matter) to donate fee free. Finally, if international charities and internet services are any precedent, this channel has the potential to significantly increase donations.

Passing the "pragmatic" test is the easy part. It's the philosophy that is likely to be the major obstacle.
Yes, that's right, by ignoring all the other items raised you can dismiss the pragmatism one by an assertion that the volunteer forum managers should set it up just like you said in the first place.

+1 for poundwise on debating points. Your argument is irregardless.

PJW
Pragmatically speaking, the Forum should accept donations in all major currencies, including U.S. Dollars, Canadian Dollars, Swiss Francs, and Russian Rubles. The Forum Administrators are not just great site managers but also excellent investors. They are certain to make even more money for the Forum by the currency arbitrage.

Victoria
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Jeff7
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Jeff7 »

tetractys wrote:Bitcoins are great for anonymously making untraceable illegal transactions through TOR. Would it be a good idea for the Bogleheads to receive such funds or be associated with any of that? -- Tet
Cash is also useful to make difficult-to-trace illegal transactions, but no one's trying to avoid it.



(Well...ok, I avoid cash when I can, but not for that reason. ;))
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

VictoriaF wrote:...
Pragmatically speaking, the Forum should accept donations in all major currencies, including U.S. Dollars, Canadian Dollars, Swiss Francs, and Russian Rubles. The Forum Administrators are not just great site managers but also excellent investors. They are certain to make even more money for the Forum by the currency arbitrage.

Victoria
What, no Eritrian Nakfa (ERN): 15.21 ERN = 1 USD? Somebody's money isn't good enough for us?
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Topic Author
poundwise
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by poundwise »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:+1 for poundwise on debating points. Your argument is irregardless.
Hard to argue with this. I had better concede.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

poundwise wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:+1 for poundwise on debating points. Your argument is irregardless.
Hard to argue with this. I had better concede.
You had better stop pretending words don't exist, and unquoted bits of postings don't exist, and reasoning doesn't exist. How so? In terms of "had better?" Is there any threat? Any enforcement? No. Of course not.

Respond with the last word between you and I if you like.

PJW
ourbrooks
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by ourbrooks »

Actually, experimenting with Bitcoin donations is by no means low cost, regardless of how the experiments turn out.

As anyone who has read the information on donating to the site would find out, donations to the site are actually payments to a trust account belonging to a company called Gostynska Frakt, Ltd., which runs the site. What you're asking this company to do is accept Bitcoin/Namecoin/PPCoin/Litecoin payments and account for them correctly when filing their tax returns and other required filings. The legal and tax standing of virtual currencies is very much an open question; although I understand that Gostynska Frakt, Ltd. is, in fact, a law firm, I suspect that they'll want to hire specialist consultants in this area. This could get very expensive, especially if the tax filings of Gostynska Frakt, Ltd. are challenged.

There are also some other practical difficulties. The two mechanisms for donating to the site are through PayPal, which does not currently accept Bitcoins, and checks. I doubt that check written in Bitcoins could be cleared. Even if they did clear, would the bank which holds Gostynska Frakt, Ltd.'s trust account be willing to accept the Bitcoins?

Suggestions about experiments wilth virtual currencies would probably get taken a lot more seriously if they were backed with a promise to pay (in $USD) for whatever financial consequences there were to accepting these payments.
MathWizard
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by MathWizard »

If you have a huge number of bit coins
to donate and they are worth something
convert them to dollars and donate the dollars.

When I donate to a non-profit, I don't
donate in some odd currency forcing
the non-profit to spend resources to accept
the donation.
Diogenes
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by Diogenes »

I think some proponents of Bitcoins are hoping for mainstream acceptance .
Once Amazon and my cable company (OK maybe Starbucks also) accepts Bitcoins, I will have a look.
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by bertilak »

Diogenes wrote:I think some proponents of Bitcoins are hoping for mainstream acceptance .
Once Amazon and my cable company (OK maybe Starbucks also) accepts Bitcoins, I will have a look.
Re Starbucks.

Can bitcoins be used only for online/electronic transactions? I.e. how would one go about handing over bitcoins to someone behind the counter at a Starbucks? What are the mechanics of it?

If I sell my old TV in a garage sale is there some way I could accept bitcoins as payment? Would it be as easy as accepting Euros (if I chose to)?
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sperry8
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by sperry8 »

tetractys wrote:Bitcoins are great for anonymously making untraceable illegal transactions through TOR. Would it be a good idea for the Bogleheads to receive such funds or be associated with any of that? -- Tet
Cash is also untraceable for illegal transactions. Are you adverse to accepting that? Just because something can be used for an illegal purpose doesn't mean it cannot have merits as well. Now I certainly do not advocate buying bitcoins at $1,000! Nevertheless, it has brought to light some intriguing concepts that should be looked at more closely. One of which is it's value cannot be inflated away.
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ourbrooks
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by ourbrooks »

Effectively, a Bitcoin is nothing more than an encryption key; got the key, you've got the coin.
Several companies now make these cute, little coin shaped containers that you can put your key in.
Hand it over at the counter and the other person can transfer the virtual coin to their account at their leisure.

Unfortunately, I think the key is for the whole coin and, at the rate Bitcoins seem to be appreciating, your coffee at Starbucks will cost .05 Bitcoins. To transfer fractional Bitcoins, I suspect that the person spending the Bitcoin would have to go online, "log in," and transfer the fractional Bitcoin. Bitcoins are dividable into 64 pieces. You can already pay at Starbucks using a smart phone, so this wouldn't be all that different.

Of course, Bitcoins are passé. As of this morning, Terracoins were keeping up with Bitcoins for appreciation and sell for a lot less. Namecoins, PPcoins, and Feathercoins didn't seem to be doing so hot.

If Bogleheads is going to accept virtual coinage, they definitely shouldn't favor one over the other and should both established and emerging virtual currencies.

It's true that virtual currencies can't be inflated away in the traditional sense, but it's relatively easy to create new virtual currencies so the virtual currency supply is increasing very, very rapidly, far faster than the US dollar supply.
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sperry8
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by sperry8 »

ourbrooks wrote: It's true that virtual currencies can't be inflated away in the traditional sense, but it's relatively easy to create new virtual currencies so the virtual currency supply is increasing very, very rapidly, far faster than the US dollar supply.
That's very interesting, I hadn't thought about it that way. I wasn't familiar with these other virtual currencies. And truly, who could keep track of them all (although I suppose I am able to keep track of the multiple currencies I have).

Assuming these 'coins' proliferate - that may kill the whole 'good' concept of the just one that cannot be inflated.
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ourbrooks
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by ourbrooks »

From the Bitcoin FAQ:
Bitcoin remains the first and foremost private virtual currency, but we can offer no guarantees that it will retain that position. It would certainly be in keeping with internet history for a similar system built from the same principles to supersede and cast Bitcoin into obsolescence, after time had revealed its major shortcomings. Friendster and Myspace suffered similar fates at the hand of Facebook, Napster was ousted by Limeware, Bearshare and torrent applications, and Skype has all but crushed the last few disciples of the Microsoft Messenger army.
There's also the issue that the number of Bitcoins is limited to about 21 million, although other currencies allow more. Also, currently, Bitcoins can only be divided into 64ths. Imagine the whole world economy trying to get by on that limited a currency supply; the likely effect is that Bitcoins become more and more valuable as economic growth occurred, which would be extremely deflationary. The idea currency would grow along with real economic growth but the current mechanisms can't achieve that.
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poundwise
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Re: Bogleheads.org should accept Bitcoin donations

Post by poundwise »

ourbrooks wrote:There's also the issue that the number of Bitcoins is limited to about 21 million, although other currencies allow more. Also, currently, Bitcoins can only be divided into 64ths. Imagine the whole world economy trying to get by on that limited a currency supply; the likely effect is that Bitcoins become more and more valuable as economic growth occurred, which would be extremely deflationary. The idea currency would grow along with real economic growth but the current mechanisms can't achieve that.
Bitcoin transactions are recorded to 8 decimal points, so each BTC is currently divisible into 100 millionths. The smallest unit, 10^(-8) BTC, is called a Satoshi. However, if greater divisibility is necessary, the Bitcoin protocol can be modified to handle additional decimal places (see the Bitcoin.it FAQ: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ).

Also, in breaking bitcoin news, there is much speculation that the identity of Satoshi Nakamoto has just been outed:

See https://likeinamirror.wordpress.com/201 ... ick-szabo/ and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828169.
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