Bogleheads Without Avatars

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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby stemikger » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:21 pm

grayfox wrote:Some Bogleheads do not have an avatar. I recommend that posters choose a unique avatar.

I was reading the long thread about "if dividends are different" and several of the posters did not have avatars. I had trouble keeping track of which poster had which position and made which point.

I find it easier to sort out what each forum participant has said when I can put a "face" on the poster. Maybe I just remember pictures better. In my view, there are the individual poster with avatars, and then there is a mass of anonymous posters without avatars who I don't remember who they are and are just part of the "peanut gallery".

If you want to be remembered as an individual, and not as a random poster in the crowd, I recommend choosing an avatar.


Can someone tell me too add one.

Thanks
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby madsinger » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:45 pm

Ice-9 wrote:When logged in, View your posts, go to one of your posts, then click on your name in a post to get to your profile page.

On your profile page, click on User Control Panel near the top left.

Click on the Profile tab.

Click on Edit Avatar.

Click Browse and navigate to the image on your PC that you've selected to use as your avatar. *


Thank you for the clear instructions. I now have an avatar that I'm proud of!

-Brad ( (whispered) "Leopold..." )
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby stemikger » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:26 pm

Thanks. The problem I'm having is it is telling me the picture is too large and it is not letting me resize it. Not sure why?
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby madsinger » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:38 pm

stemikger wrote:Thanks. The problem I'm having is it is telling me the picture is too large and it is not letting me resize it. Not sure why?


I don't know about the "resizing" capabilities of the "board" software...but I just found this very simple to use "re-sizer" online:

http://www.resizemypicture.com/

I tried it, and under "more options" requested 100x100. It seemed to work fine.

-Brad.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby stemikger » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:39 pm

madsinger wrote:
stemikger wrote:Thanks. The problem I'm having is it is telling me the picture is too large and it is not letting me resize it. Not sure why?


I don't know about the "resizing" capabilities of the "board" software...but I just found this very simple to use "re-sizer" online:

http://www.resizemypicture.com/

I tried it, and under "more options" requested 100x100. It seemed to work fine.

-Brad.


Thanks I'll give it a shot.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby stemikger » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:46 pm

Finally. Thanks for your help.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby LadyGeek » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:26 pm

The intent of an avatar is to uniquely identify members. After receiving a PM, it appears that some members may have duplicated ones already in use. This will cause some confusion, as well as contention between members.

The site owner, Alex Frakt, has updated the forum policy to allow the moderators and site admins to remove duplicate avatars. See: Forum Policy

Avatars - Avatars may be deleted by a moderator or site admin at any time if it results in multiple complaints from your fellow members, if it duplicates an existing member's avatar, or if it includes any of the following:
  • animations
  • ads or commercial messages
  • misleading photos
  • offensive or disturbing images

To complain about an avatar, either report the post of the member in question (use the "!" in the top right corner of every post, "Report does not fit in any other category"), or, PM a moderator or site admin. (This is the same procedure as reporting a post or PM.)
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Default User BR » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:44 pm

indexfundfan wrote:I had been using the same avatar since 2007 when the forum was setup. Then somebody came along and decided to use the same one...

Now by the new rules, you can report him!


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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Epsilon Delta » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:38 pm

LadyGeek wrote:The intent of an avatar is to uniquely identify members. After receiving a PM, it appears that some members may have duplicated ones already in use. This will cause some confusion, as well as contention between members.

The site owner, Alex Frakt, has updated the forum policy to allow the moderators and site admins to remove duplicate avatars. See: Forum Policy

Avatars - Avatars may be deleted by a moderator or site admin at any time if it results in multiple complaints from your fellow members, if it duplicates an existing member's avatar, or if it includes any of the following:
[list][*]animations


So, how unique does an avatar have to be? From one perspective all QR codes are different, from another they are all the same. ...
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby LadyGeek » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:38 pm

Since I'm familiar with QR codes (there is at least one other member with one), they seem different to me. The encoding patterns (black / white squares) vary drastically depending on a lot of things. My avatar has very few characters ("LadyGeek"), so the blocks are large.

There are a number of ways to further customize your QR code. You can change the orientation (rotate the 3 point alignment squares) or perhaps change the background color to something other than white. As long as the contrast is good, it should scan. Changing the content also changes the size of the individual blocks, which helps with variety.

OTOH, that really didn't answer the question. We do have similar avatars for items such as graphs, money, and ships (Vanguard influence). However, they are easily identifiable by the human eye. Not so for QR codes.

I agree that the username would probably create a lot of similar avatars which you can't tell except by scanning them. So, we're back to square one (pun intended). I'll need some time to get a consensus with the Advisory Board and the site owners.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Redstorm » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:28 am

madsinger wrote:
stemikger wrote:Thanks. The problem I'm having is it is telling me the picture is too large and it is not letting me resize it. Not sure why?


I don't know about the "resizing" capabilities of the "board" software...but I just found this very simple to use "re-sizer" online:

http://www.resizemypicture.com/

I tried it, and under "more options" requested 100x100. It seemed to work fine.

-Brad.


Thanks

Just tried this
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby LadyGeek » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:46 pm

After a few days of discussion in the Advisory Board, we don't have any consensus (yet) on QR codes for avatars. However, there was one good point:

If members have trouble distinguishing among QR codes, then someone's QR code may be confused with mine. It's not a good idea to be confused with the site admin (which can be either good or bad...). I was looking for a reason to change my avatar and was undecided whether to delete it completely or go for a simpler design.

I went for a simpler design. Using the freeware version of PhotoShop, GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program, I created an avatar which was patterned after the viewfinder of an SLR camera. Long story short, this is what I ended up with. It's simple, clear, and draws your attention. If it conflicts with anyone, let me know and I'll change it.

The fact that we don't have a consensus shouldn't hold up someone who wishes to use a QR code avatar. Try to be creative using different content and colors.

Here's a QR code avatar I'm aware of, which belongs to kwan2:

Update: kwan2 has updated his avatar, see below.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby kwan2 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:38 am

maybe the admins should find a way to offer a number of premade avatars, then ppl might use them, takes a small effort to meet the size that the avatars must be, probably might make a few not haveone
grayfox wrote:Some Bogleheads do not have an avatar. I recommend that posters choose a unique avatar.

I was reading the long thread about "if dividends are different" and several of the posters did not have avatars. I had trouble keeping track of which poster had which position and made which point.

I find it easier to sort out what each forum participant has said when I can put a "face" on the poster. Maybe I just remember pictures better. In my view, there are the individual poster with avatars, and then there is a mass of anonymous posters without avatars who I don't remember who they are and are just part of the "peanut gallery".

If you want to be remembered as an individual, and not as a random poster in the crowd, I recommend choosing an avatar.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst | Are full of passionate intensity-Yeats 1919;Out of every fruition of success,no matter what, comes forth something to make a new effort necessary -Whitman
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Munir » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:47 am

LadyGeek wrote:After a few days of discussion in the Advisory Board, we don't have any consensus (yet) on QR codes for avatars. However, there was one good point:

If members have trouble distinguishing among QR codes, then someone's QR code may be confused with mine. It's not a good idea to be confused with the site admin (which can be either good or bad...). I was looking for a reason to change my avatar and was undecided whether to delete it completely or go for a simpler design.

I went for a simpler design. Using the freeware version of PhotoShop, GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program, I created an avatar which was patterned after the viewfinder of an SLR camera. Long story short, this is what I ended up with. It's simple, clear, and draws your attention. If it conflicts with anyone, let me know and I'll change it.

The fact that we don't have a consensus shouldn't hold up someone who wishes to use a QR code avatar. Try to be creative using different content and colors.


Can the moderator explain to "ignorant" people like me what the abbreviation QR means?

BTW, after many attempts by this novice to create an avatar, it was judged to be distracting and was deleted. Why would a wagging dog be distracting, and distracting to whom? A cat? :happy

The suggestion to have the moderator (or the advisory board) propose acceptable avatars that pass all the rigorous criteria to choose from is a good idea.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby likegarden » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:18 am

I never look at avatars.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Default User BR » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:50 am

kwan2 wrote:maybe the admins should find a way to offer a number of premade avatars

Having people use the same canned avatars is pretty useless. Well, even more useless that avatars in general.


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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby LadyGeek » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:47 am

Munir wrote:Can the moderator explain to "ignorant" people like me what the abbreviation QR means?

BTW, after many attempts by this novice to create an avatar, it was judged to be distracting and was deleted. Why would a wagging dog be distracting, and distracting to whom? A cat? :happy

The suggestion to have the moderator (or the advisory board) propose acceptable avatars that pass all the rigorous criteria to choose from is a good idea.

Sure. A QR (Quick Response) code is a barcode in the form of a square. The bottom line is that you can download an app to your smartphone to scan it. It's useful just about anywhere; such as storing contact info, linking to a product's website, or receiving promotional offers. Here's a tutorial: QR code

I originally had a QR code as my avatar because I thought it looked cool and was "techy." Since others wanted to use one, I removed mine to avoid confusion. I really was looking to change it and this was a good opportunity.
(Update: I changed the color to match the text under the avatar - it provides a better balance.)

As to the animation (wagging dog), the guidelines are set by the site owners, Alex Frakt and mingstar. They want this forum to maintain a low-key simple user interface. Part of that approach is to remove all distracting formatting in the avatars and signatures. I understand that animations are used in many forums, but that is not the case here. Here's the user profile guidelines:

Avatars - Avatars may be deleted by a moderator or site admin at any time if it results in multiple complaints from your fellow members, if it duplicates an existing member's avatar, or if it includes any of the following:
  • animations
  • ads or commercial messages
  • misleading photos
  • offensive or disturbing images
Signatures, Location, Website, etc. - To keep the forums readable and the signal to noise ratio high, all profile information, including Signatures and Locations must be free of commercial messages, non-controversial, short, and normal text only (no external links, no images, no line breaks, and no distracting formatting). Locations must be physical locations such as city, state, country or region. The Website field may only be used for your blog or other personal website.

The above is for content. The avatar limitations are:

Minimum Width x Height in pixels: 20 X 20 px
Maximum Width x Height in pixels: 100 X 100 px
Maximum file size: 8192 bytes

Acceptable avatars: Unless you find one that's against the guidelines, I would just scan the threads for examples.

IMHO, having a "standard" set of avatars would limit creativity. Note that the policy also says "no duplicates" which makes this a moot point.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby linenfort » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:45 pm

Thank heavens. Not that I have any say, but I cannot bear animated avatars myself, and have to disable all avatars on forums where they're allowed.
The key is not so much what couch you choose, but that you stay on it. -- boglehead Random Musings. | Wolde ye bothe eate your cake, and haue your cake?(1546)
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Munir » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:45 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Munir wrote:Can the moderator explain to "ignorant" people like me what the abbreviation QR means?

BTW, after many attempts by this novice to create an avatar, it was judged to be distracting and was deleted. Why would a wagging dog be distracting, and distracting to whom? A cat? :happy

The suggestion to have the moderator (or the advisory board) propose acceptable avatars that pass all the rigorous criteria to choose from is a good idea.



The avatar limitations are:

Minimum Width x Height in pixels: 20 X 20 px
Maximum Width x Height in pixels: 100 X 100 px
Maximum file size: 8192 bytes

Acceptable avatars: Unless you find one that's against the guidelines, I would just scan the threads for examples.

IMHO, having a "standard" set of avatars would limit creativity. Note that the policy also says "no duplicates" which makes this a moot point.

Lady Geek,

Thank you for the explanation.
For an older person like me, understanding pixels & bytes, and being creative in formulating an avatar are not achievable. If I cannot choose from suggested possibilities an avatar that appeals to my fancy, then I will to stay avatar-less. If I choose not to be creative, why cann't I have one? (Is it discrimination against ignorant seniors like me? :happy .)
BTW, I am not fond of animated avatars but chose one out of frustration in finding an avatar that meets all the criteria mentioned above. Well, sigh!, I will have to live without one :( .
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Meg77 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:22 pm

I do not yet have an avatar but am now motivated to set to work finding and uploading one. EDIT: I did it! Just took a few minutes. I recommend searching "100 x 100 avatars" and then saving the image to your desktop and then opening the image in Paint and re-saving it as a new file. For some reason this cut the file size down from 18 KB to 2 KB without changing the image...

However I must say that while I read a lot on this forum and post a fair amount of responses, I really never notice the avatars or the usernames of anybody else. I have no idea if I've ever conversed before with anybody who I'm quoting, reading or responding to. In fact sometimes I marvel when others notice things like"your previous posts have indicated xyz" and always assumed they just clicked through the username to read previous posts for background before responding. I literally just realized that they may simply a) notice names/avatars of posters and b) connect the dots later just like one would do in a live conversation based on image/voice recognition. :oops:

I wonder if this is some kind of strange personality quirk that my brain is perfectly content to keep everyone equal and anonymous in conversations (I also have what I consider a normal degree of trouble remembering people's names in real life; it just isn't retained as useful information unless I really focus on trying).
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby ogd » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:38 pm

Meg77: it's not just you - I'm the same, and I think it's simply because the avatars are far off to the right. I remember seeing UI research that shows Web page readers are very much focused on the left side, and of that the upper side gets the most attention. I think it has to do with scanning paragraphs for interesting content or something like that.

That said, I added one when I saw this thread because it only takes 5 minutes and if it others find it helpful then why not.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby VictoriaF » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:44 pm

ogd wrote:I remember seeing UI research that shows Web page readers are very much focused on the left side, and of that the upper side gets the most attention. I think it has to do with scanning paragraphs for interesting content or something like that.


When I read a thread, I don't notice the avatars. But when I am scanning a thread for specific posters, I focus on the right hand side if I know their avatars. Placing avatars on the left would be more user-friendly in most circumstances.

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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby VictoriaF » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:50 pm

Meg77 wrote:In fact sometimes I marvel when others notice things like "your previous posts have indicated xyz" and always assumed they just clicked through the username to read previous posts for background before responding.

This depends on whether you already know the poster or see her messages for the first time. If I know the poster, I may have noticed what she had written earlier and then relate it to her later messages. If I don't recognize the poster and she writes something impressive, I may check her history. In both cases, I click on the name rather than search for the avatar.

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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby VictoriaF » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:59 pm

Default User BR wrote:
kwan2 wrote:maybe the admins should find a way to offer a number of premade avatars

Having people use the same canned avatars is pretty useless. Well, even more useless that avatars in general.


Brian


But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here. Some would be annoyed into submission. Others would display an endowment effect and fall in love with their avatars.

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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Munir » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:20 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Default User BR wrote:
kwan2 wrote:maybe the admins should find a way to offer a number of premade avatars

Having people use the same canned avatars is pretty useless. Well, even more useless that avatars in general.


Brian


But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here. Some would be annoyed into submission. Others would display an endowment effect and fall in love with their avatars.

Victoria


I would like to fall in love with an avatar. Suggestions? Offers? :)
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby VictoriaF » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:25 pm

Munir wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Default User BR wrote:
kwan2 wrote:maybe the admins should find a way to offer a number of premade avatars

Having people use the same canned avatars is pretty useless. Well, even more useless that avatars in general.


Brian


But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here. Some would be annoyed into submission. Others would display an endowment effect and fall in love with their avatars.

Victoria


I would like to fall in love with an avatar. Suggestions? Offers? :)

Change your name to Pygmalion.

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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby SpringMan » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:36 pm

Munir wrote:I would like to fall in love with an avatar. Suggestions? Offers? :)

One suggestion, if you have Windows 7, is to use the "snipping tool" on a thumbnail, save the result to a jpeg file. Thumbnails can be displayed for any folder including your personal photos. If your saved "snipping tool" file is too large to be accepted as an avatar, repeat using the "snipping tool" on the file previously saved from the "snipping tool". Eventually you should get the file small enough to be accepted as an avatar. This approach should work not only on personal files but anything snipped from the web. You should avoid using copyrighted images for an avatar.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Munir » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:59 pm

I have an avatar at last because of the help provided by Lady Geek. Thanks to her and to others- I liked the Pygmalion suggestion!
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Default User BR » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:46 pm

VictoriaF wrote:But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here.

At least one person would quit.


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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby VictoriaF » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:52 pm

Default User BR wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here.

At least one person would quit.


Brian

That person can take comfort in knowing that the scenario is purely hypothetical.

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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Stickman » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:31 pm

OK, I'll choose this happy fellow. Although I'll have to admit, people call me Stickman because I manage the stick holding up the lid of a grand piano at a concerto competition every year. Big job right? But it is my absolute favorite day of every year and volunteering in this way allows me to sit close.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby pennstater2005 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:59 pm

Default User BR wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here.

At least one person would quit.


Brian


Maybe you could find an anti-avatar avatar. Maybe not.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Epsilon Delta » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:55 pm

pennstater2005 wrote:Maybe you could find an anti-avatar avatar. Maybe not.


Does mine count?
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby pennstater2005 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:32 am

Epsilon Delta wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:Maybe you could find an anti-avatar avatar. Maybe not.


Does mine count?


Yes it does. That is awesome.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby linenfort » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:38 am

Epsilon Delta wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:Maybe you could find an anti-avatar avatar. Maybe not.


Does mine count?

I thought you'd at least put some Greek letters in there.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby LadyGeek » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:45 am

Hint: Try matching the text color. Epsilon Delta

rgb(16, 82, 137) or HTML #105289
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Call_Me_Op » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:51 am

Is there a good source of images for the avatar that are not copywrited?
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby LadyGeek » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:00 am

Set google's advanced search to include usage rights: Advanced Image Search
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Epsilon Delta » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:04 pm

linenfort wrote:I thought you'd at least put some Greek letters in there.


That would increase the cognitive load on readers whose native language is English.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby Epsilon Delta » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:05 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Hint: Try matching the text color. Epsilon Delta

rgb(16, 82, 137) or HTML #105289


Thanks, I used the eye dropper tool, but got messed up by the anti-aliasing.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby ursineogre » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:47 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
ursineogre wrote:I've been inspired to conform. I am a frequent lurker and not very frequent poster, so here is my stamp on my identity.


Is that a genie in the bottle?

Victoria


No no, that is a 5 gallon batch of fermenting mead. I am a mead maker and cider maker.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby VictoriaF » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:50 pm

ursineogre wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
ursineogre wrote:I've been inspired to conform. I am a frequent lurker and not very frequent poster, so here is my stamp on my identity.


Is that a genie in the bottle?

Victoria


No no, that is a 5 gallon batch of fermenting mead. I am a mead maker and cider maker.


I apologize for the misinterpretation. I detected some spirit but not its source.

Victoria
Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby mickeyd » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:56 pm

When NSA does an avatar search those w/o one will be missed and continue to stay under the radar.
Part-Owner of Texas | | “The CMH-the Cost Matters Hypothesis -is all that is needed to explain why indexing must and will work… Yes, it is that simple.” John C. Bogle
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby linenfort » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:57 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
linenfort wrote:I thought you'd at least put some Greek letters in there.


That would increase the cognitive load on readers whose native language is English.


Ha! Well, I don't speak Greek, but it wouldn't be that hard to put two and two together and guess, considering the screen name.
(Shrug), anyway, the avatar looks better now. Much closer in color than before.
The key is not so much what couch you choose, but that you stay on it. -- boglehead Random Musings. | Wolde ye bothe eate your cake, and haue your cake?(1546)
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby doug91 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:33 am

Done! Thanks for the prompting.
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby zaplunken » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:22 pm

Meg77 wrote:
.....I also have what I consider a normal degree of trouble remembering people's names in real life.....


And that is why avatars are a great thing because we typically are visually oriented and will remember the image but forget the user name. :sharebeer
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby jmndu99 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:25 pm

I agree, an avatar would help for some. I usually use the tone of the writer and can guess who it is, but...
So here is mine
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Re: Bogleheads Without Avatars

Postby epilnk » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:00 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Default User BR wrote:
kwan2 wrote:maybe the admins should find a way to offer a number of premade avatars

Having people use the same canned avatars is pretty useless. Well, even more useless that avatars in general.


Brian


But if the administrators had the will and the way to assign random and different avatars to all avatarless users, we could see some interesting social dynamics here. Some would be annoyed into submission. Others would display an endowment effect and fall in love with their avatars.

Victoria


I would be fine with assigned canned avatars if other people found that helpful. I don't feel a need for an avatar of my own - they can be useful identifiers for a community, but this is a question/answer forum of limited scope and conversations are killed if they stray off topic. So it doesn't matter to me whether I am remembered or not. I'll go along with the majority.
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