Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Topic Author
cheapskate
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:05 pm

Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by cheapskate »

Quick FYI - in case you need to move assets around...

If you have less than $250K in a Wells Fargo Advisors account, there will be a $125/year fees. The fees goes into effect 6/30/12 and will be charged in September.

I got a letter advising me of this and I just verified this with a rep on the phone. I am shutting my account down and moving my assets to fidelity.
Easy Rhino
Posts: 3278
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:13 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Easy Rhino »

hmm, apply to our friend wellstrade accounts with a PMA checking package?

edit: the $125 fee looks like it's a part of the "Command Asset Program," whatever the heck that is.

Note that from the fee disclosure, there's this lingo abou how the PMA affects fees:

Accounts linked to a Wells Fargo PMA Package will qualify for fee waivers as follows:
• For standard brokerage Investment Accounts, IRA or Education Savings Accounts,
annual fees will be waived.
• For a Command Asset Program accounts, applicable annual fees will be reduced by
$65 if you have PMA qualifying balances of under $250,000, and will be waived
altogether if your PMA qualifying balances total $250,000 or more.

https://saf.wellsfargoadvisors.com/emx/ ... /e7009.pdf
User avatar
AAA
Posts: 1876
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:56 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by AAA »

I have a couple of small accounts at WF due to inheritance. I wanted to move them to Vanguard but there was a $90 fee per account. I guess due to inertia they are still there.
rinsedry
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:20 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by rinsedry »

I received a letter with the new fee schedule today, as well. Unless I'm misreading, it would appear that Wellstrade accounts linked to a PMA Package will still not incur any annual fees. However, the balance requirements to waive the $30 monthly service fee for the PMA Package have increased. Previously, you needed to maintain a combined (brokerage and PMA checking, savings, CD, etc.) balance of $25,000. Now, you need $50,000 combined, or $25,000 in PMA linked banking accounts (brokerage balances not included).

I don't (and at the moment, can't) meet the new requirements, so I'm currently looking to transfer my Wellstrade brokerage account to Vanguard. Does anyone know if the $95 account transfer fee will be temporarily waived because of the changes?
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

rinsedry wrote:I don't (and at the moment, can't) meet the new requirements, so I'm currently looking to transfer my Wellstrade brokerage account to Vanguard. Does anyone know if the $95 account transfer fee will be temporarily waived because of the changes?
I do not know, but if you will be able to meet any of the numerous waivers in the near future you may not want to transfer out as the annual fee that would be imposed is $30 for an IRA or $60 for a brokerage account.

Somebody put a lot of work into this 12 pages of new fee disclosure, but it sure is hard to figure out that many folks will have no change (i.e. everything will still be free). WF will get a lot of grief for this.

I will summarize this for the PMA package:
If you have at least $25,000 in bank deposit accounts, then no fees.
If you have at least $50,000 in investments and/or bank deposit accounts, then no fees.

@rinsedry, your situation suggests that you started the PMA package with under $50,000 of assets, but more than $25,000 of assets since $25,000 was the minimum a year or so ago.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
cliffedelgado
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:52 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by cliffedelgado »

rinsedry wrote:I received a letter with the new fee schedule today, as well. Unless I'm misreading, it would appear that Wellstrade accounts linked to a PMA Package will still not incur any annual fees. However, the balance requirements to waive the $30 monthly service fee for the PMA Package have increased. Previously, you needed to maintain a combined (brokerage and PMA checking, savings, CD, etc.) balance of $25,000. Now, you need $50,000 combined, or $25,000 in PMA linked banking accounts (brokerage balances not included).

I don't (and at the moment, can't) meet the new requirements, so I'm currently looking to transfer my Wellstrade brokerage account to Vanguard. Does anyone know if the $95 account transfer fee will be temporarily waived because of the changes?
Good find. Looks like they are indeed upping it from 25K to 50K.

edit: ok livesoft is right, this is not completely new. there are already references to 25k banking/50k total in this thread http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=91046
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

The "Command Asset Program" is a product where you have a Financial Advisor which is unlikely that some folks here have. Who knows if the fees have gone down for that program, stayed the same, or have gone up? :) However if one "Upgrades to the Command Asset Program" with its $125 annual but waivable fee, then one can have a Financial Advisor at no additional cost. LOL! (Just make six monthly deposits of $250 and it appears the $125 annual fee is waived.)

I'm guessing that cheapskate (the OP) might have one of these Command Asset Program things and doesn't want to upgrade to the PMA Package where the fees have not changed.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
rinsedry
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:20 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by rinsedry »

livesoft wrote:@rinsedry, your situation suggests that you started the PMA package with under $50,000 of assets, but more than $25,000 of assets since $25,000 was the minimum a year or so ago.
That's correct. I use WellsTrade as my taxable investing account (holding only Vanguard ETF's). I would have invested directly with Vanguard, but Vanguard Brokerage Services had not yet switched to their current fee structure.
Topic Author
cheapskate
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:05 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by cheapskate »

livesoft wrote:The "Command Asset Program" is a product where you have a Financial Advisor which is unlikely that some folks here have. Who knows if the fees have gone down for that program, stayed the same, or have gone up? :) However if one "Upgrades to the Command Asset Program" with its $125 annual but waivable fee, then one can have a Financial Advisor at no additional cost. LOL! (Just make six monthly deposits of $250 and it appears the $125 annual fee is waived.)

I'm guessing that cheapskate (the OP) might have one of these Command Asset Program things and doesn't want to upgrade to the PMA Package where the fees have not changed.
I have the PMA package (not an advisory account). I called them again. This time the rep told me that since I don't have the advisory relationship my fees won't be $125/year but $60/year.
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

Did you happen to tell the rep that you have the PMA package? :)

As I wrote before, a lot of work went into that 12 page notice. So much work that not even the WF reps can figure it out.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by GammaPoint »

rinsedry wrote:
That's correct. I use WellsTrade as my taxable investing account (holding only Vanguard ETF's). I would have invested directly with Vanguard, but Vanguard Brokerage Services had not yet switched to their current fee structure.

I am in the same boat, and have between $25k-$50k in my PMA account with WF. Looks like I'll have to deal with the hassle of moving this over to Vanguard now probably. I suppose if I call VG they'll make this process super easy for me, right? I only hold VG ETFs at WF.

I could dump a couple more thousand in to my brokerage account to make the $50k mark, but maybe they'll just bump the minimum up to $100k the next year....
or of course, the market could drop.
firewynd
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 2:47 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by firewynd »

For those thinking of switching:

With PMA you get:
- 100 free trades / year / account. So say 1x taxable + 2x IRA accounts = 300 free trades

etrade charges $9.99 per trade.

So 300 free trades = ~$3000 worth of trades.

Monthly fee for PMA is $30 / month if you don't meet the new $50k limit. So in short:

if you make three or more trades / month (across any number of accounts in your PMA), then you would be better off just paying the monthly fee until you hit the $50k cap.

Let's say you paid the $30 / month. That's $360 / year.
With 300 trades for $360 --> $1.20 per trade (assuming 3 accounts and you used every single free trade).

In any case, depending on how you use it, it could still be an amazing deal depending on your situation.
downshiftme
Posts: 1142
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:11 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by downshiftme »

Somebody put a lot of work into this 12 pages of new fee disclosure, but it sure is hard to figure out that many folks will have no change (i.e. everything will still be free). WF will get a lot of grief for this.
They sent an equally impenetrable disclosure of new fees last year when they converted WellsTrade accounts from one incarnation of Wells Advisors to a new version of Wells Advisors. No one at my local branch knew whether that notice meant I would be charged the new fees or not, including the people who's title was "Advisor" and the people they phoned for support.

If their fee disclosure statement is confusing to the average Boglehead and to Wells Fargo employees, then it's a pretty poor disclosure. Since no one knows what it means, it provides no useful information. Perhaps that is the intent. Wells Fargo deserves to get a lot of grief for this.

Last time, the only way to know if the fees applied or not was wait and see if they charged them. Employees were confused about what types of accounts were included and about what type of account my own accounts actually were. I expect a similar confusion about "Command Asset Program" which is a term I never heard before and appears to be linked to Wachovia, but is unclear how it applies to existing Wells Fargo, PMA and/or WellsTrade accounts.
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14459
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Annual Account Fees Can be waived for the following

Post by Toons »

The Wells Fargo Command Asset Program is a service that was offered many years ago by Prudential,then when Wachovia bought the securities side of the business they kept the program in force,same when Wells bought Wachovia.( I currently have an account).

https://www.wellsfargoadvisors.com/fina ... arison.htm

"Annual Account Fees
Type of Account Annual Fee
Command Asset Program/Command Asset Program for IRAs$125.00
Command Asset Program for Business $150.00
Investment (stand brokerage) Account $60.00

Annual account fees can be waived for the following:
Accounts opened before June 1, 2012 with a household relationship that totals $50,000 or more as of June 30, 2012, and that elect to go paperless and receive all documents online-only, to include statements, confirms, tax documents/1099s and shareholder communications, will receive a fee rebate of up to $60 per account of the applicable annual fee. Accounts opened after May 31, 2012 with a household relationship that totals $50,000 or more as of June 30, 2012, and that elect to go paperless and receive all documents online-only, to include statements, confirms, tax documents/1099s and shareholder communications, will receive a fee rebate of up to $15 per account of the applicable annual fee.
Accounts linked to a Wells Fargo® PMA® Package will qualify for fee waivers as follows:
For standard brokerage Investment Accounts, IRA or Education Savings Accounts, annual fees will be waived.
For Command Asset Program accounts, annual fees will be waived if the PMA qualifying balance is $250,000 or more on June 30. Command Asset Program accounts with a PMA qualifying balance of less than $250,000 will receive a fee rebate of up to $65 of the applicable annual fee per account.
Wells Fargo Private Bank Clients
Standard brokerage Investment Accounts, IRA or Coverdell Education Savings Accounts with mutual fund only positions of $50,000 or more (exclusive of money market, closed-end and exchange-traded funds).
Households with a Command Asset Program will have all annual IRA fees waived, including Traditional, Spousal, Roth, SEP and SIMPLE IRAs.
Individual participants' accounts that are part of a Qualified Retirement Plan (QRP) (e.g., ERISA) will not be charged an annual account fee.
Accounts that are part of a household relationship with Wells Fargo Advisors that totals $250,000 or more as of June 30. Your total household relationship includes all personal brokerage assets that appear on your Wells Fargo Advisors statements. (If you maintain accounts with Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., assets in those accounts are not included in your Wells Fargo Advisors household relationship. Assets shown on your statement under the Other Assets/Liabilities section are also not included)." :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
downshiftme
Posts: 1142
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:11 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by downshiftme »

That's a lot of text, but it's no more clear if you cannot say what kind of account is what kind of account. I have a PMA. Do I have a WellsTrade or a Wells Advisor account? Even people at the bank couldn't tell me.
Accounts linked to a Wells Fargo® PMA® Package will qualify for fee waivers as follows:
For standard brokerage Investment Accounts, IRA or Education Savings Accounts, annual fees will be waived.
Shouldn't this be the part in bold. If this is correct, then PMA linked accounts have fees waived.

Then there's all kinds of stuff about Command Assets, which not having come from Prudential or Wachovia. I do not know what that is. People at my branch never mentioned it. They couldn't say if my brokerage account was converted to Wells Advisors or not, but I guess I can ask again about this new nomenclature.

A fee disclosure should make things more clear. Not less.
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14459
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Toons »

"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by GammaPoint »

downshiftme wrote:
Shouldn't this be the part in bold. If this is correct, then PMA linked accounts have fees waived.
But that's how they can trick ya. Sure, these normal fees are waived if you have PMA, but if you don't have $50k maybe you have fees for having a PMA itself....

I plan on calling them today about this. $60 one year would not be a deal breaker, but since I'll be able to invest in a 403b as much as I like next year as a postdoc I don't know how much extra taxable investing I'll be doing for the next 3 years. Paying $180-$240 in fees sounds much less appetizing to me.
Path
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:23 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Path »

Thanks for this post, I was really lost in that 10-12 page document.

I do maintain PMA but now I will need to make sure that it has $50K to avoid yearly fee.

Thanks
Path
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14459
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Toons »

Path wrote:Thanks for this post, I was really lost in that 10-12 page document.

I do maintain PMA but now I will need to make sure that it has $50K to avoid yearly fee.

Thanks
Path
:sharebeer :moneybag
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

Be careful: You may need $50,000 to avoid the MONTHLY $30 PMA fee!
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by GammaPoint »

I just got off the phone with Wells Fargo Advisors, having called to talk to them about this issue. The representative I talked to didn't sound like he was the sharpest needle in the haystack (actually sounded hungover, but I digress...). Anyway, he basically was like "uhh....yeah....it looks as though they might [drunk surfer change of tone on the word 'might']....charge you a fee for the PMA since your balance....isn't....quite....$50k". I said that I was worried about this currently, since my wife and I are finishing up our PhDs, but that we would surely easily qualify in the future once we have larger incomes [hinting that they should waive the fee for me for the time being]. He didn't bite, and so I asked if they would not be charging the account closing fee since the terms changed on me [here asking for real, and to show that I really was going to leave if they charge me this fee]. He didn't try to keep me as a customer and was basically just like "....uhhh...yeah....it seems...as though.....the fee...would still.....apply....for closing the account". So I said okay, and that I would be transferring it out to VG, and ended the call.

Then I called VG, got a hold of someone in VG concierge services (who by the way sounded like an intelligent human being) and she pre-filled out a bunch of paperwork for me and I'm on the way to transfer this over to VG. I *might* not even need a signature guarantee to make the transfer, although she is going to double check on that and call me back.

It's a pity, I sort of like having my PMA account. But to be honest, I was always a little nervous having my money with anyone other than VG since I really don't trust the investment industry. Changing the name from WellsTrade to Wells Fargo Advisors even made me more nervous, since of course the very last thing I want is a financial advisor. Now I'll have my taxable account in the same location as my retirement accounts, which might be convenient.
Last edited by GammaPoint on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am
Contact:

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by indexfundfan »

GammaPoint wrote: It's a pity, I sort of like having my PMA account. But to be honest, I was always a little nervous having my money with anyone other than VG since I really don't trust the investment industry. Changing the name from WellsTrade to Wells Fargo Advisors even made me more nervous, since of course the very last thing I want is a financial advisor.
You would not be the first person to pay the fee to transfer out. TFB also transferred out recently (though not directly related to the new fees).
My signature has been deleted.
joppy
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by joppy »

livesoft wrote:Somebody put a lot of work into this 12 pages of new fee disclosure, but it sure is hard to figure out that many folks will have no change (i.e. everything will still be free). WF will get a lot of grief for this.

I will summarize this for the PMA package:
If you have at least $25,000 in bank deposit accounts, then no fees.
If you have at least $50,000 in investments and/or bank deposit accounts, then no fees.
Why do you think they have made the fee disclosure so cryptic?

The following are all conjectures, so please take with a very large grain of salt. I welcome other conjectures by others as well.

I suspect it is because the PMA Checking and WellsTrade are two separate organizations who are being "told" by management to integrate their offerings.

The PMA folks probably don't like giving away their premier banking account for "just" 50k in a Wells-trade investment account -- they would prefer to require deeper banking relationship requirement. But the people with 50k in a WellsTrade account are probably an "attractive demographic" they want to cross-sell their banking services to.

The WellsTrade folks probably don't like giving away their brokerage account for "free" for people who have a PMA checking account -- it is clear that they want you to have $250k in assets at WellsTrade to give you a free account. However, people who do enough banking with Wells Fargo to have a PMA account are probably an "attractive demographic" that WellsTrade wants to cross-sell their investment services to.

It appears that the fact that $50k in WellsTrade brokerage gives you a free PMA account, and a PMA account gives you a free WellsTrade brokerage account is a "loophole" in the desires of the respective individual groups, as they attract their respective demographics for cross-sales.

- Joppy
Easy Rhino
Posts: 3278
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:13 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Easy Rhino »

Hmm, my wife called yesterday about an unrelated issue, and I think she got the same drunk surfer guy. She was not impressed with her brand new IRA I made her sign up for. :oops: Weirdly, I called the day before and talked to someone who was super-sharp.
joppy wrote:I suspect it is because the PMA Checking and WellsTrade are two separate organizations who are being "told" by management to integrate their offerings.
Simpler hypothesis: the bank side at WF is very separate from the brokerage side. You get one brokerage fee disclosure, and a separate bank disclosure, and at best, they footnote each other. The personal bankers in the branch can't help with brokerage stuff, they just put you on the phone with Minnesota or wherever the brokerage side is based. Heck, I even get the impression that the brokerage and banks are on two different data processing systems that are glued together in the web interface with lots of bailing wire and duct tape. (which is actually an impressive duct tape feat).

Finally, the Command Asset Program doesn't sound particularly useful. Like PMA, but more expensive, with little or no other practical benefits (except maybe gigantic overdraft line of credit from brokerage margin).
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by GammaPoint »

Easy Rhino wrote:Hmm, my wife called yesterday about an unrelated issue, and I think she got the same drunk surfer guy. She was not impressed with her brand new IRA I made her sign up for. :oops: Weirdly, I called the day before and talked to someone who was super-sharp.
To be fair, I have called in before and talked to someone who was reasonably intelligent (although they were in brokerage/trading and not account services), so it's definitely a mixed bag.
User avatar
Jay69
Posts: 1801
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Jay69 »

I'm currently PMA with no fees under the old rules and new rules. An 8th grader could have done a better job with that 12 page letter, what a piece of work that was.

I have been with Wells for seems like forever but I'm to the point I just cant deal with this crap and feel the need to move on. Its really to bad, I know most of my branch people well.

I'm in the middle of doing some in service transfers (6 total, dont want it all out of the market at one time) from my work SAR-SEP-IRA to my tIRA at WellsTrade. After that is done I'm thinking I going to bite the bullet and move to Vanguard, I called VG today to discuss a few things already. I may put off the rest of my transfers and move sooner!

Its going to cost me $300 to move all of our WellsTrade accounts, so be it :annoyed

I may leave my banking at Wells Fargo I'm looking at the local credit union and a local bank with 4 just branches for my other banking as well.

The PMA package is a good deal for the free trades and I really like the one statement but being I just switch to all mutual funds and ditched the ETF's I really dont need the PMA package anyway!
"Out of clutter, find simplicity” Albert Einstein
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

The closest commercial establishment to my house is a WellsFargo Bank. I've been using WellsFargoAdvisors (nee WellsTrade) since before there were free trades.

The duct tape that holds together Vanguard Mutual funds and VBS is more massive than the tape that holds together the WF bank and the brokerage. I've known since before the beginning that you don't ask the bank people anything about the brokerage and vice versa. I suppose I am lucky that I have never had to call the brokerage folks up (I get all my info here on this forum instead :) ).

BTW, it wasn't too long ago that my kids were in 8th grade. They could not have written that mailing. I wonder if it came from a group that was part of Wachovia. As such, they are probably clueless to what PMA package is. If you have ever been part of a corporate merger, you know what I'm talking about. Same thing kinda happened when Vanguard assumed the Pershing stuff into VBS.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
downshiftme
Posts: 1142
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:11 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by downshiftme »

I don't think it's fair to say the fee letter is about brokerage accounts, so bank people won't know about it. It includes fees for PMA banking. It includes fees for brokerage. It includes privacy policy for all account and sharing marketing info among other Wells Fargo affiliates, including the bank. It includes waiver rules if you do monthly deposits beginning in Jan 2012, but since it was sent out in April that's a retroactive qualification very few people will be able to satisfy.

At the very least, if you are going to send that kind of communication to all your customers, then perhaps you should have told the front-line people in the branches or on the phones what it is or what it means. They did not.

Everyone at the branch was very helpful about trying to figure it out, but they had no idea if or how it affected my PMA accounts. They asked everyone there from branch manager on down. The best they could do was a phone number for me to call. That number was sent to voicemail.

I think this is saying a lot about some Wachovia Command Asset Program that does not apply to me, and while I'm puzzling about that, it is slipping in some notice about raising the PMA qualifications from $25,000 to $50,000 but it's hard to tell. Even the bank people don't know and don't know how to find out. Very similar to the change from Wells Fargo Advisors to Wells Fargo Advisors (same name) they did a year ago. No one knew what it meant, and no one knew how to find out. It took a lot to get all my accounts set up and linked and the PMA still has benefits I like, so I guess I'm going to sit tight and wait to see if they do charge a fee. Probably that inertia is something the bank is counting on. But it makes me concerned that they are either so bad at communicating important account information, or so deliberately devious about it.
User avatar
Jay69
Posts: 1801
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Jay69 »

livesoft wrote:The duct tape that holds together Vanguard Mutual funds and VBS is more massive than the tape that holds together the WF bank and the brokerage. I've known since before the beginning that you don't ask the bank people anything about the brokerage and vice versa. I suppose I am lucky that I have never had to call the brokerage folks up (I get all my info here on this forum instead :) ).

Is Vanguard really this bad? Going to open one more Roth, (wifes) to stash part of the Emergency fund. I can add it to the PMA side or start at Vanguard. I suppose I could start at Vanguard then decide to move latter if needed.

Would at least be able to see what color Duct Tape each one uses :wink:

Toss a coin, I dont know.
"Out of clutter, find simplicity” Albert Einstein
User avatar
Jay69
Posts: 1801
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Jay69 »

The more I think about this, I think some states are already under this rule? I recall that from past threads.

Maybe they are trying to make it match accoss the board. I could understand that.
"Out of clutter, find simplicity” Albert Einstein
GammaPoint
Posts: 2661
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 am
Location: Washington

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by GammaPoint »

Jay69 wrote:
Is Vanguard really this bad? Going to open one more Roth, (wifes) to stash part of the Emergency fund. I can add it to the PMA side or start at Vanguard. I suppose I could start at Vanguard then decide to move latter if needed.
Both me and my wife have our ROTHs at Vanguard. Each ROTH has a normal mutual fund part and a brokerage part that holds our ETFs. I've never had any problem with them. The dividends from my ROTH show up in my money market settlement account, which I can use to buy more ETFs or I can exchange them into an index fund. What more could one need?
User avatar
HueyLD
Posts: 9782
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by HueyLD »

livesoft wrote:The duct tape that holds together Vanguard Mutual funds and VBS is more massive than the tape that holds together the WF bank and the brokerage.
Hi livesoft,

I don't understand your remarks. Can you provide specific examples? Thanks.
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

I have already reported that VBS takes an extra day to get one's dividends seen on the web site. Go to your VBS account right now.

Why does it show "Price as of 04/16/12"? It should show price in real-time.
By what percent did my shares go up today?
Why can't I see current holdings on the same page as the trading page?
If I sell/buy shares today, how come my number shares doesn't update until overnight?
If I sell an ETF and want to buy a mutual fund, how long does it take?
Etc.

It's been awhile since I placed a trade in a VBS account, so maybe some things have changed.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 52105
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by nisiprius »

livesoft, a few years ago you said, I believe, that assuming you met the PMA minimum, investors who primarily invested in Vanguard mutual funds were actually just as well off or better at WellsTrade than with holding the mutual funds directly at Vanguard. No annoying/mysterious proceeds-available-lags on a sell-non-Vanguard-to-buy-Vanguard-mutual-fund transaction.

Then you complained about their "new trading platform." I'm not clear on what's happened since.

I think your present stance is that WellsTrade is not actually all that good a place for Vanguard mutual fund investing, but it doesn't matter because you don't see any reason to use Vanguard mutual funds rather than the corresponding ETFs. Is that about right?
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

(Whose "new trading platform" are you asking about? Vanguard's?)

Earlier this year I bought the signal share class of the Vanguard S&P500 index fund in my taxable brokerage account WF. I had three main reasons to do this:
(1) To show it could be done. That was the subject of many posts where others followed suit.
(2) In the event of an emergency the mutual fund settles the next day, while selling ETF shares settle a few days later, so I would have access to the cash 2 days earlier than with ETFs. If this was at Vanguard, it would take an extra day to do the ACH transfer to checking, but at WF my checking and brokerage transfers are generally within an hour or two of the request.
(3) As part of rebalancing with dividend money.

I also invest in non-Vanguard products at WF for no commission which is mildly important to me.

If one is only going to invest in Vanguard products, then Vanguard is the place to be. One can easily live with the Vanguard quirks. However, with access to Signal Share class funds for no commission at WF, WF is not a bad choice either. (I wonder what would happen to someone who transferred "in-kind" Signal Shares at WF to a new account at Vanguard? :) )

Folks have to watch for fees with any vendor including Vanguard.

This thread would probably not be such a big deal if WF had done a better job communicating: As in a bold: PMA customers will see no change in fees statement in the first page of the WF mailing. It is even unclear to me if there were any change in fees for that Command Asset Program or if it was just a re-iteration of existing fees. Another unfortunate thing (at least to me) is the Command Asset Program makes me think of the First Command program. No vendor is immune from communication problems. For instance forum members complain routinely about the little things, such as the year-end statements from Vanguard. I complained about how trade information is communicated. And so on.

Anyways, it's good to have choices.

PS: Maybe cheapskate (the OP) can edit the first post of this thread so that it is more factual.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
jnkdaniel
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:22 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by jnkdaniel »

It would have been more honest and clear cut if wells fargo said, "you must have direct deposit to keep PMA free, otherwise balance requirement is now $50k." The worst part about all this is, the wellsfargo PMA webpage does not mention of the effective date for the $50k balance, as if the requirement has been 50K all along.

More people can actually qualify for free PMA now, especially younger folks with lower balances. I am sure this is who wells fargo is targeting.
Mikko
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:58 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Mikko »

I received this fee disclosure letter this evening.

My accounts are as follows:
PMA checking and savings accounts that I keep Zero in
Roth that has more than $50K
Taxable that currently is has zero balance

The way I read the disclosure was that unless you had $250K there was going to be fees. However, the fees could be offset by going paperless and some other baloney like month cash deposits that started back in January. (They want clairvoyant customers evidently)

I was probably going to transfer a larger 401k rollover to WF later this year, but this is annoying and I am reconsidering.

They first increased the minimum from $25K to $50K, and now to 5x greater to $250K!! I recall that the account transfer fee was originally $50, and I see it is now $95. :annoyed

So can someone that thinks the magic number is only $50K fire up the scanner and point out to me where I am reading this thing wrong?

Also regarding a potential transfer. It has been a long time since I've read anything about completing one. I have a variety of VG ETF and Index Funds in my Roth. If I did complete a transfer would these have to get liquidated or could they be transferred intact? I believe that VG now has the VBS to do ETF trades right? When I had my acct at VG previously it was index funds only.
Cash
Posts: 1572
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:52 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Cash »

You have a PMA relationship. You have a brokerage account (Roth IRA) with $50k in it. Your fees will not increase. (The transfer out fee has been $95 ever since I opened my accounts in 2010.)
Last edited by Cash on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cash
Posts: 1572
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:52 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Cash »

Yes, the requirement has been $50k for many of us for almost a year now, perhaps longer. If your minimum is now $50k, welcome to the club. Aside from that, the only thing WF has done is sent out a poorly drafted notice. That's unfortunate, but no reason for me to switch. It seems like some people were just itching to switch anyway and this (mis)communication was a catalyst. That's fine, but recognize that not anything has actually changed (aside from those who can't meet the $50k).
Mikko
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:58 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Mikko »

I've been at WF since probably 2007 or 08. Yes the minimum has been $50K for some time. And I recall the transfer out fee of $50 from reading docs when I opened it.

My comment was that I remember they changed it from $25K to $50K at some time previously. Actually, I recall they did it at a very inconvenient time because the market went down so much my acct dipped below $50K. One idiot telephone rep said I should just add money to the acct and I had to explain that it was a Roth and I could not make any additional deposits to it for the year.

So now based on my initial pass through the document it looks like it is changing to $250K, but if ya'll are saying it is still $50K, I'll take another look at it in a few minutes.
Cash
Posts: 1572
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:52 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Cash »

See page 3, "Qualification for discounted pricing with a Wells Fargo PMA Package." Then turn to page 4 and see that under "Available Annual Account Fee Waivers," it says that "Annual Fees are waived if the following criteria are met as of June 30, 2012:" Bullet point three: "Accounts linked to a Wells Fargo PMA Package will qualify for waivers as follows:" First bullet point under that "For standard brokerage Investment Accounts, IRA or Education Savings Accounts, annual fees will be waived." I'm trained to read gibberish, so that's pretty clear to me :).
wander
Posts: 4419
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:10 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by wander »

Mikko wrote:My comment was that I remember they changed it from $25K to $50K at some time previously. Actually, I recall they did it at a very inconvenient time because the market went down so much my acct dipped below $50K. One idiot telephone rep said I should just add money to the acct and I had to explain that it was a Roth and I could not make any additional deposits to it for the year.
I don't know why you called the telephone rep was an idiot. Wouldn't it be possible to link your taxable account with you IRAs, mortgage and checking account for PMA package? So, you can add money to your taxable account to raise the total of all accounts to $50k?
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by sscritic »

Most banks have different products in different states. I just opened a browser that I don't use for banking and tried to get information from Wells Fargo.
When you specify the location of your residence or business, we can provide customized product information.1

Note: You must have cookies turned on to receive local product information. The cookie generated when you select a Zip Code will retain your selected location information for a period of one month. We've set it up this way so that you won't need to specify your location each time you visit our site. If you would like to view product information for a different location, simply click on the Change Location link.

1If you apply for an account in a state in which Wells Fargo does not have a physical banking location, any account opened will be subject to California's terms and conditions.
Some of you have different minimums over different time periods because you don't share a locality. I get asked for my zip code at all sorts of websites, don't you? Clear your cookies and try again to find out what the terms and conditions are. Pick a state where you don't live. You can even try the "Change Location link" if you can find its location.
livesoft
Posts: 85972
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by livesoft »

I see this as an interesting psychology or behavioral economics experiment. The OP posts statements "new fees starting in 6/20/2012" and "If you have less than $250K ...." which thus prime the reader. Folks go read the mailing looking for all the ways that their fees are going up; they seem to miss the wording where fees are unchanged or lower. They are primed to avoid looking for the new lower fees starting in 6/20/2012.

If the title of the thread was "WF: new lower fee structure starting 6/20/2012", the posts to the thread may have had a different theme.

This is a good lesson for those of us that write corportate communications.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
Jay69
Posts: 1801
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Jay69 »

livesoft wrote:(Whose "new trading platform" are you asking about? Vanguard's?)

Earlier this year I bought the signal share class of the Vanguard S&P500 index fund in my taxable brokerage account WF. I had three main reasons to do this:
(1) To show it could be done. That was the subject of many posts where others followed suit.
(2) In the event of an emergency the mutual fund settles the next day, while selling ETF shares settle a few days later, so I would have access to the cash 2 days earlier than with ETFs. If this was at Vanguard, it would take an extra day to do the ACH transfer to checking, but at WF my checking and brokerage transfers are generally within an hour or two of the request.
(3) As part of rebalancing with dividend money.
The whole Signal Share Class subject is a moving target, not sure what the status is this week. I was able to buy most Signal Shares that I wanted, they did change the minimum on I think most of them to $10k and in the the case of International that went up to $100k for some reason.

Another thing I did notice about holding Mutual Funds at WF is that when you sell you have to sell in Shares and can not use dollars. You can buy in either shares or dollars however, not sure how Vanguard does this.

livesoft wrote:If one is only going to invest in Vanguard products, then Vanguard is the place to be. One can easily live with the Vanguard quirks. However, with access to Signal Share class funds for no commission at WF, WF is not a bad choice either. (I wonder what would happen to someone who transferred "in-kind" Signal Shares at WF to a new account at Vanguard? :) )
They switch to Admiral or Invsetor class shares according to the rep I talked to yesterday! I do agree that either choice in the end is fine really. They each have pros and cons.

I have the feeling that finding free banking options that is not loaded fees will be harder to come by in the future as well, how is that for my Crystal Ball :wink:
"Out of clutter, find simplicity” Albert Einstein
User avatar
tfb
Posts: 8397
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:46 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by tfb »

joppy wrote:I suspect it is because the PMA Checking and WellsTrade are two separate organizations who are being "told" by management to integrate their offerings.

The PMA folks probably don't like giving away their premier banking account for "just" 50k in a Wells-trade investment account -- they would prefer to require deeper banking relationship requirement. But the people with 50k in a WellsTrade account are probably an "attractive demographic" they want to cross-sell their banking services to.

The WellsTrade folks probably don't like giving away their brokerage account for "free" for people who have a PMA checking account -- it is clear that they want you to have $250k in assets at WellsTrade to give you a free account. However, people who do enough banking with Wells Fargo to have a PMA account are probably an "attractive demographic" that WellsTrade wants to cross-sell their investment services to.

It appears that the fact that $50k in WellsTrade brokerage gives you a free PMA account, and a PMA account gives you a free WellsTrade brokerage account is a "loophole" in the desires of the respective individual groups, as they attract their respective demographics for cross-sales.
I agree with this analysis. You have to remember the vast majority of the current WFA customers don't have PMA account. The fee notice speaks to them, not to the minority of customers who get their brokerage account for free for having a PMA account, who get their PMA account for free for having $50k in the brokerage account. It's a WFA fee notice, not a WellsTrade with PMA fee notice.

Remember WellsTrade used to be with Wells Fargo Investments (WFI). WFI being a small sideline business, Wells Fargo was willing to use it to attract more customers to open PMA accounts. Wells Fargo Advisors used to be Wachovia, which used to be AG Edwards, a full-service brokerage. Even now WFA boasts to be 3rd largest brokerage measured by the number of brokers. Most WFA customers have a broker. Most probably have over $250k. The Command Asset Program probably existed for a long time, long before PMA, or even before Wachovia. That's why the notice led with Command Asset Program.

It starts to make sense if you read it thinking like a typical WFA customer.
Harry Sit has left the forums.
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14459
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Toons »

"The Command Asset Program probably existed for a long time, long before PMA, or even before Wachovia. That's why the notice led with Command Asset Program."

Correct. It started out as a Prudential Securities Plan ,I believe in the late eighties ,early nineties.
I enrolled in the service back in the early nineties :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am
Contact:

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by indexfundfan »

It seems like every few months, WF customers need to decipher a legal document to see if they are hit by any new fees.
My signature has been deleted.
User avatar
Jay69
Posts: 1801
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Jay69 »

indexfundfan wrote:It seems like every few months, WF customers need to decipher a legal document to see if they are hit by any new fees.

Same as your phone bill :wink:
"Out of clutter, find simplicity” Albert Einstein
Default User BR
Posts: 7502
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: Wells Fargo Advisors : new fees starting 6/20/2012

Post by Default User BR »

To clarify, the $25k or $50k NEVER had any effect on brokerage fees. Those fees were waived (and the free transactions granted) because the accounts were linked to a PMA checking account. Where the total asset level came into play was waiving the monthly PMA account fee.


Brian
Post Reply