dental scams you've known and loved

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Yuba
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Location: Orange County, CA

Post by Yuba »

socca wrote:I earlier claimed that AETNA's $10/month price for dental coverage is (IMO) ridiculously low. Here is my justification for this characterization:
(1) AETNA's competitors in the medical insurance field usually charge around $25/month for dental coverage;
(2) My previous dentist - the one who doesn't accept insurance - charges from $99 to $129 for a cleaning and examination. The exact cost depends upon how much work the dental hygienist has to do.

With self-insurance, my annual cost for preventative dental care was about $200 / year using my previous dentist. I like to have a cleaning and exam twice per year, and my overall good oral health makes my teeth a relatively easy cleaning job for the hygienist.

I don't understand how AETNA can possibly cover 100% of a participant's preventative dental care cost while charging only $120 per year. Here are some possible explanations:
(1) AETNA is offering a teaser rate to attract new dental plan participants. The cost per year will rise substantially down the road.
(2) AETNA reimburses only a (small) fraction of what it takes a typical dentist to provide preventative dental care. The dentist is expected to make up his or her loss with non-preventative dental services.
(3) AETNA receives some kind of direct or indirect kickback (payment for order flow) for directing dental plan participants to a particular dentist.
There may be some other explanations I haven't considered.
Or 4) AETNA knows based on historical claims data that only 1 out of 3 covered individuals have claims in any given year (data fabricated to make a point). So charging a lower amount still covers the claims with a profit.

Rick dba Yuba
Fallible
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Post by Fallible »

Bernd wrote:
That seems to lead to some Bogleheadish concern : as a retiree, how many more fillings, crowns, implants, bridges, partial dentures, and full dentures will I have to endure over the next 15 - 20 years?
All of us can at least forestall some procedures by taking good care of our teeth: brushing, flossing, using good mouthwashes dentists recommend, regular cleanings, etc., etc. But it is a great concern, even with insurance and good care.
Topic Author
socca
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Location: Sarasota, FL

Post by socca »

++++ Status Update ++++

Today I visited my previous dentist (call him Dr. A) for a routine cleaning, examination, and second opinion on the Aspen Dental dentist's (call her Dr. B) diagnosis and proposed treatment.

On the positive side, Dr. A agrees with Dr. B that I have a cavity that needs filling. Dr. A has been watching the tooth since the defect was first noticed in 2010, and has decided that it's time to act. So, after 17 years I'm going to have a bit more drilling done. Not a pleasant prospect, but at least I'm now confident that the work should be done.

On the negative side, Dr. A disagrees with Dr. B regarding her periodontal disease diagnosis. Dr. A says I don't have any of the conditions he looks for in periodontal disease, and says that the Aspen Dental proposed treatment (scaling, root planing, antibiotics, 3-month interval visits) is completely unnecessary. The dental hygienist (22 years experience) concurs.

Dr. A, the hygienist, and Dr. A's office staff had a lot of interesting things to say about Aspen Dental. My experience at Aspen Dental apparently was not unique. I won't go into the comments/stories/allegations here.

Just to clarify: Dr. A is willing to file dental insurance claims on behalf of patients; he's just not willing to be bound by the insurance companies' treatment reimbursement schedules. This makes him an 'out of network' provider in the eyes of insurance companies.

My visit to Dr. A today cost me $130 : $100 for the cleaning & exam, and $30 for the X-ray of the tooth that Aspen Dental identified as impaired. Did I get good value for my money - absolutely! "Free" preventative dental care is not "free" if I am going to be scammed by my insurance company's 'in network' dental providers.

Good luck! 8-)
TRC
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Re: dental scams you've known and loved

Post by TRC »

socca wrote:This dentist claims that I have a cavity and periodontal disease, and wants me to undergo a pricey treatment. Have I heard this story before? :)
Periodontal disease is no joke is one the most common diseases out there. Often times you will feel no pain and think everything is fine. By the time you're diagnosed with Perio, it's too late. There is no cure, only management. I know becuase I have it really bad and my old dentist never properly diagnosed me. When I went to my new Dentist, he couldn't believe how bad my condition was and why I was never properly diagnosed earlier in its stages.
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DesertOasis
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Location: Boston, Massachusetts

Post by DesertOasis »

I went for a routine cleaning yesterday. I had X-rays done that showed that I had a "problem tooth" that would need a crown. After the dentist left, the hygienist took an additional X-ray of the tooth for my insurance company. She said that this was like getting a second opinion. This was new information for me. Does anyone know how seriously insurance companies scrutinize X-rays? Has anyone ever had their insurance reject a claim because in their opinion the work was not necessary?
Barefootgirl
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Post by Barefootgirl »

20 years ago, I would go to my dentist - great guy, retired Army dentist, author of several books on dentistry - and his office would clean my teeth twice/year. He would look over my mouth during those visits and ask if I was having any problems. Periodically, there would be x-rays and he would look those over - ask if I was having any problems, if I wasn't - he would recommend waiting until I did, before doing anything about it.

He retired wealthy, as they tend to do :)

Now when I go the dentist, I am bombarded with all sorts of offers to buy dental gadgets and gizmos and have my teeth whitened professionally. At the same time, I am urged to let them know if I am having any problems in my mouth whatsoever (which is likely a good thing). I will say the Sonicare has improved my overall gum health, so that's a good thing - but I didn't need the dentist for that one. Also, I noticed that the process is different - it used to be that if you needed a procedure, you would get a time slot and the full attention of your dentist during that procedure. Now, you get a time slot, the dentists does a bit, then leaves to attend to someone else - come back, work on you again - this worked against me because my dentist once started drilling before remembering he had forgotten to give me anesthesia :(

bfg
Barefootgirl
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Post by Barefootgirl »

oh, gum disease is highly preventable, even if you have the genes that push in that direction.

I use an oral irrigator and antimicrobial solution, along with dental tape for flossing.

This protocol completely halted the progression of my gum disease and it never returned. I have relatives who ignored this advice, at their own peril, pain and expense.

bfg
fredy atwater
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Post by fredy atwater »

Hi everyone :

I got a surprise for you. I am a retired dental pain and infection expert. That is what Endodontits do root canals. I trained in Mexico City and practiced Endodontics for 12 years. I loved doing root canals. I was pretty good at it. After 12 years I went broke and divorced. It seemed the dental professionals in the town I was working decided not to send me patients anymore.

Yes, dentists can be crooks. I thought that dentists in the U.S. had more integrity than the ones I used to work with. By what I hear in this forum and what I have lived I agree they can be disgusting here too. I say this as a certified dental surgeon in Mexico and as a former dental patient here in the US as well.

I also hate MD's. I know most Americans praise them and swear by them.

Again, I thought American MD's were more professional than the ones in Mexico. All they do is prescribe medications. Folks you cannot compare the work of an MD to the work of a dental surgeon. The MD spend their days writing prescriptions. If your body does not heal definitely you will be their customer forever. They are smarter business people then the DDS.

You can compare our work to that of a plastic surgeon , a neurosurgeon, or an orthopedic surgeon to name a few. Quality dentistry can be as complex as Surgery.

Our dental field has grown so much. But the reality is that many dentists have to make a living just like you and everyone else and their expectations are high. I had high expectations of my work too. Why not ?

But a quality dental education is an elitist thing and it takes a lot of dedication to become good at what you do. Very few dentists are willing to go to that limit.

Thereby, we end up with a majority of professionals wanting to live a lavish lifestyle at the expense of their customers with little or no regard to the patient's welfare. They see it as a business mainly.

I once met the greatest dentist in the world. Dr Leonard Linkow. The dentist with the most lawsuits in NYC and the dentist whose work was the more complex because he restored mouths with implants that were functioning after 40 years. Well , on a private discussion we agreed on one thing. We both hate dentists. I was alone in my feeling for many years until I met this super doctor. He is retired and he does not depend on the point of view of other dentists , neither do I and that's why I share this comment with you.

I know a lot more about the profession here in the US but I prefer avoid indiscretion.

The dental schools in NYCity can be crooked. I dropped out of NYU school of dentistry and Collumbia Univeristy. The cream of dental schools in NY.

Oh well.

I heard someone here say that a root canal can fail long after it has been performed. Yes, it's true. However, if the root canal treatment does not fail immediately it is less possible it occurs on the long term.

Root Canal Retreatment can be Surgical and Non Surgical. Non Surgical retreatment definetely has more chances of success, specially if it is done by a good endodontist. The root canal probably costed you more because prices went up. Surgical Retreatment is more expensive and way less successful. The first option for a root canal treated tooth failing is Non Surgical Re treatment. The best Endodontist from a technical standpoint is the one who practices the Warm Gutta-percha technique . Because these professionals are more successful I would expect them to be more professional .

One thing about us Endodontists. We have integrity and we do not claim success of our treatment on the short term. We want our treatments to last forever and many times they do.

The restoration of the Endodontically treated tooth is key for the success of the treatment because after the root canal procedure these teeth may be more brittle and susceptible to fracture which will force you to have the tooth pulled out.

I think that only one or two people mentioned here The Hygienist. They are a key professional in enhancing the prevention of periodontal disease and caries ( dental cavities ).

The best dentist should be yourself by learning how to use your dental brush and the dental floss. The people who do not use dental floss are prone to having bad breath, gingivitis,interproximal decay or periodontitis.
The hygienist is highly trained in the use of the dental brush and floss.

Have your dentist ever told you that and taught you how to brush and floss ?

If your dentist did, then you may have a good dentist.

When I was 13 years old an excellent dentist in Mexico taught me how to brush and many years later I was inspired by him to become a dentist because I never went back to any dentist in 30 years because I never had caries again. Today I am 53 I have a dry mouth problem and eating grapes caused me to have caries again. Now I am trying to brush twice per day. Once in the morning and then in the evening. The evening brushing habit has been difficult for me to acquire. I was so good at brushing my teeth that by brushing my teeth only once per day I avoided the dentist. I remove the hard deposits from the back of my teeth with a scaler every now and then.

I said I am a dental pain and infection expert. I took my profession seriously. I respected my patients. I was the most expensive dentist in town and the most I could charge was $75.00 dollars per molar.

I found out it was a lousy business despite Mexico City providing me the best of the best in dental education. I was financially illiterate.

Your dentist should have integrity otherwise they are going to screw you.

I hope you find my comments informative and non offensive or unprofessional towards dentists and physicians.

I was surprised to find people talking s-hit about dentists I laughed .

Best Wishes. If you have dental question go ahead.

Dr Alfredo Atwater.



:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :D :D
neverknow
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Post by neverknow »

socca wrote: Forgive me for being suspicious
This is the issue. There is no way that anyone out here in Internet Land can figure out whether any given dentist (or doctor) is making something up -- as it is difficult enough for the patient, in person, to figure out if the trusted professional is making something up.

But once trust has been broken -- then what? And it is a bit of a serious question, because it has happened to me. Not just in dentistry, but in doctoring, as well. If it doesn't cause me distress -- I do not believe. Even if I am in distress, I no longer believe (my trust has been so abused).

This is not new in dentists. Back when I was 18 ... so 1973, I had a wisdom tooth come in crooked, and it pushed my other teeth. Having never had anything wrong with my teeth, I went to the dentist near the college to have it looked at. The verdict? 19 teeth that needed to be filled, and all 4 wisdom teeth pulled. My mom made me wait, and see the family dentist back home. Zero needed to be done, and I kept those wisdom teeth for another 12 years (had all 4 pulled when one got a hole in it -- I could feel the hole, it would take a contortionist to fill wisdom teeth). So in regard to dentists -- this is nothing new.

I have had the same thing happen to me in the world of doctoring. To include specialists and organ failure (kidney) -- discussion of transplants. There is nothing wrong with this vital organ of mine (this is present day truth). I really balked. I felt fine. If doctoring can't fix what is bothering me, why in the world are they scaring me silly about things that aren't bothering me (my kidneys weren't bothering me).

I no longer believe, or is it possible, for me to believe anyone in the health care industry. To include, I was just dragged in by ambulance - against my will. I so not believe, I left, on my feet walking, just as soon as someone could fill out the paperwork to let me go. (a loved one forced me to go - needless to say, me and this loved one now have a huge issue, as I have a bill to pay)

If I could turn back time, what I would wish is that my trust, this precious thing called trust, had not been so abused on things of virtually no importance at all. Because it will not be there, if and when the day comes, where the health care profession could actually make a significant difference.

I do not care if all my teeth fall out. I can live without my teeth. I can not live if I have been fleeced of all my hard earned savings and have nothing left to buy groceries with. As for the rest of it ... I have no intention of living my entire life scared everyday some organ is going to fail. Of course they will. There is only one possible ending to this story.
neverknow
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MekongTrader
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Post by MekongTrader »

True bogleheads don't go the dentist. They fix their teeth themselves!
:lol:

MT
fredy atwater
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Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:24 am

Dealing with Advanced Periodontitis

Post by fredy atwater »

Dear TRC :

I think I did not address your problem on my post.

If you are at an advanced stage of periodontitis you may be at the verge of losing most of your teeth. Yes, advanced periodontitis may be irreversible in few instances. Yes, it is serious and painful. It is a sequela of a gum infection that spreads onto the bone that supports teeth.

If you are losing your teeth or you are fed up of having your teeth scaled or if your teeth are too lose or if the gum recession is so bad that you feel uncomfortable you should consult a more specialized dentist that can offer you a dental option that you are willing to accept and afford.

In extreme cases, replacing your lost teeth with a crown retained by a dental implant may be a good option if you can afford it.

You can also have a partial or full denture restorative treatment using a few implants to enhance the grip of the prosthesis.

I hope this helps.

The only dentist I can recommend for complex dental problems is Dr Jack
Piermatti. I took a dental implant course with the best implantologists of the US. He stood out as being the best dentist in my point of view after Dr Linkow (retired). His philosophy is simple. He gives patients what they want. He cares for his patients and he has common sense. I look for that in a good doctor.

I don't get money for this recommendation I wish I did.

You may check Dental Implants by Dr. Jack Piermatti - New Jersey Center for ...


If someone ever consults him please let him know I participated on a Maxicourse were he lectured back in the year 2001 in NYC. He may remember me because he was interested in the only two questions I made him.

Best Regards,

Dr Alfredo Atwater
fredy atwater
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:24 am

Dealing with Advanced Periodontitis

Post by fredy atwater »

Dear TRC :

I think I did not address your problem on my post.

If you are at an advanced stage of periodontitis you may be at the verge of losing most of your teeth. Yes, advanced periodontitis may be irreversible in few instances. Yes, it is serious and painful. It is a sequela of a gum infection that spreads onto the bone that supports teeth.

If you are losing your teeth or you are fed up of having your teeth scaled or if your teeth are too lose or if the gum recession is so bad that you feel uncomfortable you should consult a more specialized dentist that can offer you a dental option that you are willing to accept and afford.

In extreme cases, replacing your lost teeth with a crown retained by a dental implant may be a good option if you can afford it.

You can also have a partial or full denture restorative treatment using a few implants to enhance the grip of the prosthesis.

I hope this helps.

The only dentist I can recommend for complex dental problems is Dr Jack
Piermatti. I took a dental implant course with the best implantologists of the US. He stood out as being the best dentist in my point of view after Dr Linkow (retired). His philosophy is simple. He gives patients what they want. He cares for his patients and he has common sense. I look for that in a good doctor.

I don't get money for this recommendation I wish I did.

You may check Dental Implants by Dr. Jack Piermatti - New Jersey Center for ...


If someone ever consults him please let him know I participated on a Maxicourse were he lectured back in the year 2001 in NYC. He may remember me because he was interested in the only two questions I made him.

Best Regards,

Dr Alfredo Atwater
fredy atwater
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Post by fredy atwater »

Neverknow :

A piece of advise. Take advise from the successful only. Confirm it before you believe it. Think what you would do.

Great. Save your money. These trust takers are there to kill your money.

Paranoia ?

:roll:
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Toons
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Post by Toons »

These two items are the best investments Ive ever made in dental care.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sonicare-Esse ... sh/9876007

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-Waxed- ... d/10314498

Shop around for the brush


:D :D :D :D
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
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norookie
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Post by norookie »

Toons wrote:These two items are the best investments Ive ever made in dental care.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sonicare-Esse ... sh/9876007

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-Waxed- ... d/10314498

Shop around for the brush


:D :D :D :D
:D I have to agree." If you want something done right do it yourself!" was a noted quote during my life. Plus if the dentist see your not a slacker they usually treat you as such.
" Wealth usually leads to excess " Cicero 55 b.c
kidsgone
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Dental work

Post by kidsgone »

I have been going to a conservative dentist for the past 3 years and like her. She is one of the few dentists in my community that accepts our insurance as full payment. For example, insurance pays R & C $560 for a crown. Not too many dentists in our area, that is filled with million $ homes, will take that amount as the full payment. My previous dentist was a master of the up-sell with a $1250 mouth guard offer and the $1200 crowns; hence, the reason for the switch.
I just counted in our community: 9 solo practice dentist offices within a 10 block radius of our single family home community. They all need to generate lots of income to overcome their monthly high rent, salaries, and tuition bills.
Just did an experiment last week: went to my dentist, got a cleaning, brief x-rays, and relief that I need no additional work. Then went to a nearby new dentist, that sends out weekly notices of "Park Ave Smiles" from a NYC trained dentist for a 2nd opinion. He cleaned and said that I needed a cavity filled (located under a crown), and then the crown replaced for a total of $1300. Called back my regular dentist, who reviewed her charts, and said BS, no cavity.
yobria
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Post by yobria »

I like capitalism. But not when it comes to dentistry.

Nick
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Toons
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Post by Toons »

"On the negative side, Dr. A disagrees with Dr. B regarding her periodontal disease diagnosis. Dr. A says I don't have any of the conditions he looks for in periodontal disease, and says that the Aspen Dental proposed treatment (scaling, root planing, antibiotics, 3-month interval visits) is completely unnecessary. The dental hygienist (22 years experience) concurs. "

I had the same experience with Aspen about 4 years ago. :shock:
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Kristin42

Post by Kristin42 »

[thread restarted by spammer]
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dave66
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Post by dave66 »

I was going to the same Dentist for about 16 years. I went in there one day and she told me she was retiring. She introduced me to this younger guy that she said was taking over her practice. I thought that was weird, but I guess sometimes they just sell their practice to somebody.

So she shows him my mouth and mentions how I'm usually really easy and no big problems... He looks and agrees that I look like I have good hygiene. I have some fillings but never had big problems. I've never drank coffee, soda... always do what you're supposed to do.

So 6 months or so later I come in and the new guy has taken over. All the old people are gone... People who have worked there forever. I'm like... Uh oh. So the new Hygienist sits me down and puts me through the longest, most excruciating and painful cleaning I've ever been through in my life. I actually started getting mad and told her to stop. She kept going... I'm like... Uh no, seriously... You are done. Now.

The new Dentist walks in and proceeds to tell me I have four things that need to be filled. My gut reaction was to tell him he's full of s**t, but I resisted. I have 4 fillings in my mouth total, my whole life. But I go from zero to four in 6 months? Yeah, I don't think so. He says he can show me and gets out his fancy new camera. I said... OK, where is it? He points to a tooth but doesn't really say anything. I see a little brown stain in the crevice and go... You mean that brown thing? He goes... Yes. After getting home I look it up and find that has nothing to do with anything.

I found an older guy nearby and went to him. I told him the story and he takes a look. He tells me he see nothing that needs to be done.

This other new guy was going to drill four of my teeth for no reason whatsoever. Needless to say, I never went back. The amazing thing is, if it hadn't been for his unmitigated greed, I probably would have believed him at two cavities or something. Apparently the guy was such a moron, he couldn't even remember looking in my mouth just 6 months before with the old Dentist there, and commenting that it looked great.

I asked for my files and they wouldn't release them without a fee. I told them to keep them. They actually had the nerve to call me numerous times for the next two years trying to get me to come in. I'm sure I wasn't the only one that dumped him. Completely clueless.

Stuff like that should be a crime. You can't trust anybody.
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tc101
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Post by tc101 »

A dentist gets paid peanuts (about $40) for a half hours work filling a cavity.
I don't know of any dentist that does filings for $40, and I have never had one take a half hour. It costs over $100.
. | The most important thing you should know about me is that I am not an expert.
Easy Rhino
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Post by Easy Rhino »

dave66 wrote:She introduced me to this younger guy that she said was taking over her practice.
My old dentist transferred his practice too. He was pretty conservative in treatment, and said he looked for someone with a similar outlook (I stumbled into an appointment with him during his last week there).
Alan S.
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Post by Alan S. »

I recall back in S Calif in the 70s there was a dentist who had an "arrangement" with a local mortuary. The mortuary would have teeth with gold fillings extracted from the decedent and the teeth sent to this dentist who would reclaim the gold and re use it.

Metal recycling at it's finest. :)

And no, I did not make this up.
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beyou
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Post by beyou »

I had same experience, retired dentist, tried new one, suddenly had first filling suggested since I was a young boy. Went ahead with it and now have suffered with pain for years, that was not there before the diagnosis.
Went to yet another new dentist whom agreed there may have been aggressive diagnosis. He never found another cavity since then.

The one who "found" cavtities, even joked that "he has to put
his kids through college". I thought it was a joke until I was in terrible
pain.
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