Financially unprepared parents in old age?
Financially unprepared parents in old age?
There is a lot of discussion on this board about addressing risk to one’s personal finances, for example reducing debt, life insurance, disability insurance, health insurance, portfolio allocation etc. The one thing I rarely see addressed is aging parents who are not financially prepared for old age and the toll it can have on their children’s capital and human capital. I have seen this play out in my own family and the toll it took on the children. Has else faced this or have considered this, any thoughts, plans etc?
- touchdowntodd
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my parents are both fighting ilnesses which kept them out of the work force for the last 5-10 years respectively..
mother is in the midst of a 4+ yr battle with with colon cancer
father has diabetes that has left him with numb limbs that in all honesty should be amputated, but he cant face that..
both have been turned down for disability numerous times and even on appeals were turned down..
my father has a yearly income from his pension as a teacher of about $6k + another of about $3k .. he was a private school teacher most years.. mother has no income, she was self employed as a day care provider mostly off the books for the last 30 years..
everything was decent until 3-4 years ago when my mom was diagnosed.. she hasnt been able to work since..
because of health are costs my parents do not take SS so that they can qualify for state health care in order for my mother to get chemo treatments etc..
its a struggle, and they openly discuss how they have about $100 in savings and i really dont think they have that..
they both turn 65 this year and are sort of at a giving up point health wise, so they are going to both take SS... hopefully things will get better for them...
but they definetely pushed me into investing because i had never thought about it or been schooled on it prior, i just know that i dont want to end up like them.. i try to help as i can .. .but its a struggle all around..
i pray for everyones parents in a similar situation.. its a horrible feeling to feel guilty planning your own retirement while your parents struggle.. luckily mine push me to plan for myself and we agreed they will reach out for more help whenever they need it, and i will find a way
mother is in the midst of a 4+ yr battle with with colon cancer
father has diabetes that has left him with numb limbs that in all honesty should be amputated, but he cant face that..
both have been turned down for disability numerous times and even on appeals were turned down..
my father has a yearly income from his pension as a teacher of about $6k + another of about $3k .. he was a private school teacher most years.. mother has no income, she was self employed as a day care provider mostly off the books for the last 30 years..
everything was decent until 3-4 years ago when my mom was diagnosed.. she hasnt been able to work since..
because of health are costs my parents do not take SS so that they can qualify for state health care in order for my mother to get chemo treatments etc..
its a struggle, and they openly discuss how they have about $100 in savings and i really dont think they have that..
they both turn 65 this year and are sort of at a giving up point health wise, so they are going to both take SS... hopefully things will get better for them...
but they definetely pushed me into investing because i had never thought about it or been schooled on it prior, i just know that i dont want to end up like them.. i try to help as i can .. .but its a struggle all around..
i pray for everyones parents in a similar situation.. its a horrible feeling to feel guilty planning your own retirement while your parents struggle.. luckily mine push me to plan for myself and we agreed they will reach out for more help whenever they need it, and i will find a way
tryin to do this right... thanks guys
I would never let me become a burden on my children. I would be responsible to help them, though, if they were in dire trouble not of their making (medical, yes.... poor financial choices, no). I decided to have them as my child. They had no choice in having me as a parent.
Just this, they should never be concerned in investing to help me.
Would I feel the same way if it were my parents? Yes, because that was the way I was brought up to believe. They wouldn't have expected any differently from me. Would I have helped them? Definitely, but not support them. That's easily said, I know........
Jim
Just this, they should never be concerned in investing to help me.
Would I feel the same way if it were my parents? Yes, because that was the way I was brought up to believe. They wouldn't have expected any differently from me. Would I have helped them? Definitely, but not support them. That's easily said, I know........
Jim
Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered you will never grow. (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
I'm facing this issue now with my own parents and it is really heartbreaking.
My parents are very nice people who worked hard their whole lives but mismanaged their finances due to impulsive decision making. My father never believed in saving/investing and my mom knew better but wouldn't speak up. Not to be pejorative, but they are the kind of people who believe the lottery is the only way to get wealthy on an average income. I love them but they are financially ignorant. Smart in other ways, just not with money. I've always been a saver and have pleaded with them to change my whole adult life, but they refused to listen.
They are now in their mid-80s. My mother has early stage Alzheimer's and is starting to need constant supervision. A few years ago, just after full retirement they took out a lump-sum reverse mortgage (despite my pleading with them not to) and spent all the money on crap they didn't need (new minivan, Wii game system, 7 plasma TVs, 5 desktop computers, new furniture, gazebo construction etc). As a result, they now owe way more than the house is worth and the reverse mortgage fees continue to pile up. Additionally they are about $80,000 in credit card debt on 17 maxed-out accounts and owe back taxes to the IRS and state. Their only income is SS and a small pension totaling about $3,400/month. Their cc payments alone run nearly $2,000/month. They have no savings I am aware of other than $5,000 in an IRA.
Early last year - after more than 20 years of my begging, they finally agreed to let me help them get things under control a little better. My wife and I both took off several weeks from work and flew in, hired numerous professionals including an attorney, financial planner, house cleaning service and a nursing case manager to do an assessment on mom. We got them on a budget, opened a new bank account (they had given all the card issuers access to their checking account) drafted a financial plan for survival, set up wills, trusts etc and closed the credit cards accounts to new charges. They were to have monthly meetings with the planner to discuss ongoing issues like credit card settlement, long-term care planning for mom, liquidation of unneeded stuff to raise cash, etc. I agreed to pay for all the ongoing professional help and to take some of their phone calls (like talk to their creditors, etc) so they wouldn't feel as overwhelmed.
Fast forward to November...my mom & dad call to say that while they appreciate my efforts they think they were doing just fine on their own and that I should mind my own business when it comes to their finances. They fired all the help, including the nurse manager. They even re-opened their lines of credit. I was floored. They have since stopped calling us - even to talk to my daughter, their six-year old grandchild. My wife and I have since resolved that when the time comes we will take in the surviving parent and feed them, but will not give them any money in the meantime because we don't believe it will be spent well. This also means that my mother will likely spend her last days in a welfare nursing home since they refuse to discuss planning for her care. I told them I will not be guilted into paying their bills later if they refuse to involve me in planning now. Maybe a harsh stance but I need clear boundaries in order to manage what has become a dysfunctional parent-child relationship.
My parents are very nice people who worked hard their whole lives but mismanaged their finances due to impulsive decision making. My father never believed in saving/investing and my mom knew better but wouldn't speak up. Not to be pejorative, but they are the kind of people who believe the lottery is the only way to get wealthy on an average income. I love them but they are financially ignorant. Smart in other ways, just not with money. I've always been a saver and have pleaded with them to change my whole adult life, but they refused to listen.
They are now in their mid-80s. My mother has early stage Alzheimer's and is starting to need constant supervision. A few years ago, just after full retirement they took out a lump-sum reverse mortgage (despite my pleading with them not to) and spent all the money on crap they didn't need (new minivan, Wii game system, 7 plasma TVs, 5 desktop computers, new furniture, gazebo construction etc). As a result, they now owe way more than the house is worth and the reverse mortgage fees continue to pile up. Additionally they are about $80,000 in credit card debt on 17 maxed-out accounts and owe back taxes to the IRS and state. Their only income is SS and a small pension totaling about $3,400/month. Their cc payments alone run nearly $2,000/month. They have no savings I am aware of other than $5,000 in an IRA.
Early last year - after more than 20 years of my begging, they finally agreed to let me help them get things under control a little better. My wife and I both took off several weeks from work and flew in, hired numerous professionals including an attorney, financial planner, house cleaning service and a nursing case manager to do an assessment on mom. We got them on a budget, opened a new bank account (they had given all the card issuers access to their checking account) drafted a financial plan for survival, set up wills, trusts etc and closed the credit cards accounts to new charges. They were to have monthly meetings with the planner to discuss ongoing issues like credit card settlement, long-term care planning for mom, liquidation of unneeded stuff to raise cash, etc. I agreed to pay for all the ongoing professional help and to take some of their phone calls (like talk to their creditors, etc) so they wouldn't feel as overwhelmed.
Fast forward to November...my mom & dad call to say that while they appreciate my efforts they think they were doing just fine on their own and that I should mind my own business when it comes to their finances. They fired all the help, including the nurse manager. They even re-opened their lines of credit. I was floored. They have since stopped calling us - even to talk to my daughter, their six-year old grandchild. My wife and I have since resolved that when the time comes we will take in the surviving parent and feed them, but will not give them any money in the meantime because we don't believe it will be spent well. This also means that my mother will likely spend her last days in a welfare nursing home since they refuse to discuss planning for her care. I told them I will not be guilted into paying their bills later if they refuse to involve me in planning now. Maybe a harsh stance but I need clear boundaries in order to manage what has become a dysfunctional parent-child relationship.
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This is hard stuff. No easy answer, no silver bullet.
I have some financially-challenged relatives who are still a good decade away from retiring. They live modestly, but insist on a work life balance that brings in even less than their low expense, so that for the last decade they have been subsidizing their income with loans against various forms of non-liquid assets.
In the last few years, the income vs. expense gap has widened further as their business suffered, forcing them to default on some of their debt and thereby eliminating their ability to raise further debt, creating a cash crisis.
My wife and I stepped in spent tons of effort analyzing their balance sheet, cash flow etc, and developing financial plans. We also stepped in and purchased a property from them that was on track to be foreclosed endangering the equity they had in the property. We also lent some money.
The relatives however were upset with the changes we were proposing - it required them to get "real jobs", they preferred to chase some pipe dreams in their imagination while not changing anything at all in real life. When we forced an "intervention" with other family members, to force them to face reality, they got stubborn and upset. After a rough period, we essentially don't talk about this topic with them anymore.
We still own that property, they still owe us money (but we secured it with a mortgage on their house), but we don't ask any questions any more and they don't tell us anything.
We agreed with all other family members that we would not lend the troubled relatives any money any more - it just feeds the habit, doesn't fix the root cause. If they end up on the street one day, we will offer them shelter in our house and even give them a small stipend if they can't afford food.
We will help pick up the pieces, but we have given up on trying to stop the run-away train.
I have some financially-challenged relatives who are still a good decade away from retiring. They live modestly, but insist on a work life balance that brings in even less than their low expense, so that for the last decade they have been subsidizing their income with loans against various forms of non-liquid assets.
In the last few years, the income vs. expense gap has widened further as their business suffered, forcing them to default on some of their debt and thereby eliminating their ability to raise further debt, creating a cash crisis.
My wife and I stepped in spent tons of effort analyzing their balance sheet, cash flow etc, and developing financial plans. We also stepped in and purchased a property from them that was on track to be foreclosed endangering the equity they had in the property. We also lent some money.
The relatives however were upset with the changes we were proposing - it required them to get "real jobs", they preferred to chase some pipe dreams in their imagination while not changing anything at all in real life. When we forced an "intervention" with other family members, to force them to face reality, they got stubborn and upset. After a rough period, we essentially don't talk about this topic with them anymore.
We still own that property, they still owe us money (but we secured it with a mortgage on their house), but we don't ask any questions any more and they don't tell us anything.
We agreed with all other family members that we would not lend the troubled relatives any money any more - it just feeds the habit, doesn't fix the root cause. If they end up on the street one day, we will offer them shelter in our house and even give them a small stipend if they can't afford food.
We will help pick up the pieces, but we have given up on trying to stop the run-away train.
I am so grateful that my parents, now 91 and 96, have been wise enough to manage their finances well. My parents in law weren't so wise and we (all 4 children) sent them a monthly check for many years. I tried hard not to watch what they spent the money on. I'm inspired to follow my parents' example.
High risk does not equal high reward. It equals high risk of no reward.
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I struggle enourmously with this issue with my parents in law.
They are financial disasters. Have no credit, no need for credit anymore, yet the FIL gets loans from loan-sharks for who knows what.
The only reason they are not on the street is because they built their own house early in life and the FIL gets his military dissability pension.
My wife has spent countless hours counseling, working a budget etc, yet it is never followed.
On top of that, we have been responsible with our finances since college, so my wife and I are seen by the rest of the family as wealthy. We have already served as emergency lender for more than one of them. We expect that when the time comes they will turn to us.
They are financial disasters. Have no credit, no need for credit anymore, yet the FIL gets loans from loan-sharks for who knows what.
The only reason they are not on the street is because they built their own house early in life and the FIL gets his military dissability pension.
My wife has spent countless hours counseling, working a budget etc, yet it is never followed.
On top of that, we have been responsible with our finances since college, so my wife and I are seen by the rest of the family as wealthy. We have already served as emergency lender for more than one of them. We expect that when the time comes they will turn to us.
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+1BogleTurtle wrote: On top of that, we have been responsible with our finances since college, so my wife and I are seen by the rest of the family as wealthy. We have already served as emergency lender for more than one of them. We expect that when the time comes they will turn to us.
Being responsible is not rewarded by the family....
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Being responsible is not rewarded by friends either.....it just reeks havoc on having normal relationships due to human traits called jealousy and envy. This is learned from personal experience.John Bailout wrote:+1BogleTurtle wrote: On top of that, we have been responsible with our finances since college, so my wife and I are seen by the rest of the family as wealthy. We have already served as emergency lender for more than one of them. We expect that when the time comes they will turn to us.
Being responsible is not rewarded by the family....
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+1 And here I thought that all in-laws are just "sweet as can be"ResNullius wrote:Both my parents are deceased, and my wife's father is gone, but her witch of a mother lives on. I know very few folks our age (60) who haven't had issues with one parent or another. I just hope we don't cause issues for our son and his wife when the time comes.
I've found that if there is only one financially savy person among parents and children, that one is expected to carry the load for all. If you don't you're seen as "selfish" and if you do, you're resented for having more and not being "more generous". This happens despite all the effort expended to encourage fiscal responsibily, offers of helping establish a budget, loans, gifts, etc. If I had it all to do over, I'd never let anyone know anything about my financial circumstances, not that I ever advertized it to begin with.
I think that for some people, especially older people with a relatively short life expectancy, it is rational to keep spending and not worry about their debt anymore, especially if people are willing to lend them more money. If you do not have the desire to leave an inheritance, when you are dead, it doesn't matter how much money you have, or how much debt you have. If you are 80 years old, and you have a pile of debt and no savings, it is probably counter-productive to your happiness in your remaining years to try and reverse a lifetime of spending habits and pay off debt that will probably never get paid off anyway. They should just keep doing what they are doing, and be happy.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
Last edited by mptfan on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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I'm also trying to go with the stealth approach, along with the "my money is all tied up in retirement funds" excuse. But they know we have emergency funds, since they've used them in the past. In the future, my plan is to give half of the requested amount. Still, I find it remarkably difficult to feign stupidity and lack of financial success to my family. I much rather be the change I want to see in the world, but the world would rather just take my change and couldn't care less about my example. Who do I think I am, better than them? maybe.
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My MIL has stated that she is "glad she had kids so they can support her when she gets older." This after years of poor spending habits, trips she can't afford, no budget, no savings, new sportscars every few years-- UGH! I told my husband that if he expects to support her to tell me now so I can build it into the budget.
The only silver lining is that she is now married to a guy roughly her son's (my husband's) age and we hope he will get stuck holding the bag and not us. My husband's sister and her only other child is unemployed with severe mental issues. So, I just hope this husband of hers can help out. Unfortunately, he has no education is only pulling down about $30k/yr working as a sub-contractor in construction. But I hope when the economy picks back up, he'll be able to make more.
The only silver lining is that she is now married to a guy roughly her son's (my husband's) age and we hope he will get stuck holding the bag and not us. My husband's sister and her only other child is unemployed with severe mental issues. So, I just hope this husband of hers can help out. Unfortunately, he has no education is only pulling down about $30k/yr working as a sub-contractor in construction. But I hope when the economy picks back up, he'll be able to make more.
That's a good point...mptfan wrote:I think that for some people, especially older people with a relatively short life expectancy, it is rational to keep spending and not worry about their debt anymore, especially if people are willing to lend them more money. If you do not have the desire to leave an inheritance, when you are dead, it doesn't matter how much money you have, or how much debt you have. If you are 80 years old, and you have a pile of debt and no savings, it is probably counter-productive to your happiness in your remaining years to try and reverse a lifetime of spending habits and pay off debt that will probably never get paid off anyway. They should just keep doing what they are doing, and be happy.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
- rcshouldis
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The family person who behaves responsibly about money and finances is the black sheep in a family of irresponsibes.GRT2BOUTDOORS wrote:Being responsible is not rewarded by friends either.....it just reeks havoc on having normal relationships due to human traits called jealousy and envy. This is learned from personal experience.John Bailout wrote:+1BogleTurtle wrote: On top of that, we have been responsible with our finances since college, so my wife and I are seen by the rest of the family as wealthy. We have already served as emergency lender for more than one of them. We expect that when the time comes they will turn to us.
Being responsible is not rewarded by the family....
- rcshouldis
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Unfortunately, when people live lifestyles that hurt others financially and emotionally and don't give a rats #%$ about others, then it's time to stand up and say no. There is no excuse for irresponsibility.rrosenkoetter wrote:That's a good point...mptfan wrote:I think that for some people, especially older people with a relatively short life expectancy, it is rational to keep spending and not worry about their debt anymore, especially if people are willing to lend them more money. If you do not have the desire to leave an inheritance, when you are dead, it doesn't matter how much money you have, or how much debt you have. If you are 80 years old, and you have a pile of debt and no savings, it is probably counter-productive to your happiness in your remaining years to try and reverse a lifetime of spending habits and pay off debt that will probably never get paid off anyway. They should just keep doing what they are doing, and be happy.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
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Unfortunately, when people live lifestyles that hurt others financially and emotionally and don't give a rats #%$ about others, then it's time to stand up and say no. There is no excuse for irresponsibility.
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While I agree with your point, the fact is that there are plenty of excuses for being irresponsible. Just look around. Most people are less than respsonsible when it comes to finances, and almost all governments are totally irresponsible when it comes to financnes. We live in a society that puts a premium on being irrresponsible when it comes to finances, and which punishes those who are responsible.
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While I agree with your point, the fact is that there are plenty of excuses for being irresponsible. Just look around. Most people are less than respsonsible when it comes to finances, and almost all governments are totally irresponsible when it comes to financnes. We live in a society that puts a premium on being irrresponsible when it comes to finances, and which punishes those who are responsible.
I kind of agree... except when you're the one who's expected to pay the bills for someone after they've spent everything they have because they couldn't say no to themselves. I think you have a right to be judgmental when someone else's actions affect your wallet and your family's financial well-being.mptfan wrote:I think that for some people, especially older people with a relatively short life expectancy, it is rational to keep spending and not worry about their debt anymore, especially if people are willing to lend them more money. If you do not have the desire to leave an inheritance, when you are dead, it doesn't matter how much money you have, or how much debt you have. If you are 80 years old, and you have a pile of debt and no savings, it is probably counter-productive to your happiness in your remaining years to try and reverse a lifetime of spending habits and pay off debt that will probably never get paid off anyway. They should just keep doing what they are doing, and be happy.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
I also think borrowing money you know you'll never repay just to buy crap you don't need, is stealing.
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With respect to your post, your perception is almost identical to mine.crow wrote:I've found that if there is only one financially savy person among parents and children, that one is expected to carry the load for all. If you don't you're seen as "selfish" and if you do, you're resented for having more and not being "more generous". This happens despite all the effort expended to encourage fiscal responsibily, offers of helping establish a budget, loans, gifts, etc. If I had it all to do over, I'd never let anyone know anything about my financial circumstances, not that I ever advertized it to begin with.
I personally find it very amusing that those who see you as selfish usually don't have any skin in the game themselves. They're usually hypocrites and are broke themselves but if they did have any money they wouldn't give you the time of day. It's very easy for a person who is broke and lived a financuially irresponsible life, to chastise the responsibe person.
Just to add a tiny bright spot to this thread: I was trustee and executor for my aunt and had to maintain her finances for her needs during her last 3 years. She had alzheimers and other health issues. Even though she always had an average salary as a secretary, she knew that she couldn't spend more than what she took home each month.C319 wrote:... they are the kind of people who believe the lottery is the only way to get wealthy on an average income.
When she died in her 80s, her estate was worth a million dollars. She never won (or played) the lottery or got an inheritance or married well. She just started buying company stock and US savings bonds through payroll withholding for 40 years. In her 60s she bought her first (and only) piece of property, a condo, which she bought from another lady who had a balloon payment due that couldn't be paid off. And she kept saving her unspent money, to let it grow.
I believe she never knew what her net worth was. I would occasionally run across papers that listed banks and account numbers, but no balances. She didn't look at her condo as an investment, but rather a way to fix her expenses in retirement since her previous apartment rent kept increasing every year. She was also lucky that the company she worked for was a Fortune 500 company that is still going strong today and paid increasing dividends each year.
To C319
Jim
I copied your story for my wife to read. She said to tell you that your parents have a wonderful child....You!. And I agree. She would like to know how you obtained your values. You evidently did not inherit them.I'm facing this issue now with my own parents and it is really heartbreaking
Jim
Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered you will never grow. (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
With the large number of financially unprepared Baby Boomers at or close to retirement age this subject is one that many family's will have to deal with once those boomers are unable to work. It seems to me that this is a pending national crisis that people largely ignore? I know Mr Bogle has publicly raised this concern but other than his comments I mostly hear silence on this subject.
What happens when "people" are not willing to lend them money anymore?mptfan wrote:I think that for some people, especially older people with a relatively short life expectancy, it is rational to keep spending and not worry about their debt anymore, especially if people are willing to lend them more money. If you do not have the desire to leave an inheritance, when you are dead, it doesn't matter how much money you have, or how much debt you have. If you are 80 years old, and you have a pile of debt and no savings, it is probably counter-productive to your happiness in your remaining years to try and reverse a lifetime of spending habits and pay off debt that will probably never get paid off anyway. They should just keep doing what they are doing, and be happy.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
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this is why I'm fascinated when people expect some kind of decline of social security. if anything, benefits will need to be raised and retirement ages lowered.mike b wrote:With the large number of financially unprepared Baby Boomers at or close to retirement age this subject is one that many family's will have to deal with once those boomers are unable to work. It seems to me that this is a pending national crisis that people largely ignore? I know Mr Bogle has publicly raised this concern but other than his comments I mostly hear silence on this subject.
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When my dad passed away he left a small sum of insurance $250k and no debt. Within a few years my mother blew through it. They were renting a place upon his passing and she rented until recently.
With some dementia she is now in assisted living and we pay $1400/month after moms social security and some va benefits for her to live there.
It has caused strife between my sisters and me as one comes from the mindset we should pay "whatever it takes", another pays nothing as she has a lot of educational debt (but has always been financially irresponsible) and I am in between.
The cost of poor planning and no savings is staggering and it is a big, big problem. I feel I am responsible TO my mom, but not FOR her entirely. With children of my own and our own finances, it is a tough problem. Loads of guilt.
Thanks for letting me vent and if there is advice out there let me have it!
With some dementia she is now in assisted living and we pay $1400/month after moms social security and some va benefits for her to live there.
It has caused strife between my sisters and me as one comes from the mindset we should pay "whatever it takes", another pays nothing as she has a lot of educational debt (but has always been financially irresponsible) and I am in between.
The cost of poor planning and no savings is staggering and it is a big, big problem. I feel I am responsible TO my mom, but not FOR her entirely. With children of my own and our own finances, it is a tough problem. Loads of guilt.
Thanks for letting me vent and if there is advice out there let me have it!
"get out and live, you are dead an awfully long time" - Jimmy Demaret
Of course I recognize it's useless to try to change them at that late stage but I wouldn't say they should keep doing it. Their pile of debts is going to filter out to others in higher costs or some other manner.mptfan wrote:If you are 80 years old, and you have a pile of debt and no savings, it is probably counter-productive to your happiness in your remaining years to try and reverse a lifetime of spending habits and pay off debt that will probably never get paid off anyway. They should just keep doing what they are doing, and be happy.
Sometimes we Bogleheads tend to get too judgmental.
Feel free to call me judgmental. :lol:
I have often wondered the same thing myself. I can see politicians in the future pandering to this large poor voting block of elderly boomers who will be demanding a larger social safety net. Ever see what is on the AARP's wish list? Maybe we are headed towards The Great Society part-2?Opponent Process wrote:this is why I'm fascinated when people expect some kind of decline of social security. if anything, benefits will need to be raised and retirement ages lowered.mike b wrote:With the large number of financially unprepared Baby Boomers at or close to retirement age this subject is one that many family's will have to deal with once those boomers are unable to work. It seems to me that this is a pending national crisis that people largely ignore? I know Mr Bogle has publicly raised this concern but other than his comments I mostly hear silence on this subject.
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as a complement to some social behavioral studies in rodents, we've studied human parental caregivers vs. "non-compliant" siblings. you definitely see a lot of polarization of care among siblings. the caregiver, seemingly throwing their own life away to care for their parent(s), believe their siblings are selfish for not getting involved in the care. the caregiving sibling is under very intense and chronic stress due to the extreme demands of the parent(s) and the seeming betrayal from the siblings (yet they persist-this was what we wanted to study-they must find it rewarding). the non-caregiving siblings often feel bad (some guilt) but are not willing to throw away their own life on a deteriorating situation. we're trying to see if there are any genetic differences between these two populations. the putative therapeutic drugs we have aren't quite ready for clinical trials and it would probably be unethical to treat either population, but you never know.frugalhen wrote: It has caused strife between my sisters and me
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My experience is that you need to decide what you can and are willing to do for aging relatives and act accordingly.
I spent a lot of money for my mom's assisted living, and at a certain point realized that it was too much. At that point we had her qualified for medicaid, and she is now is a nursing home that provides her with better care than she received at her previous facility. (Medicaid takes all he social security, and gets $100/day from the LTC insurance I bought for her).
In the case of my step-mom I provide her with a apartment at our summer home, and pay for electric and all home maintenance. I learned from experience that she will spend any cash she has on hand regardless of the consequences, so I only pay for specific things I am sure she needs, and then only of there is no alternative.
If I had more money, I would spend more on them; if I had less I would spend less. My primary concern is the long term welfare of my children, and one way to ensure their long term welfare is to ensure I never force them to make financial sacrifices for me.
I spent a lot of money for my mom's assisted living, and at a certain point realized that it was too much. At that point we had her qualified for medicaid, and she is now is a nursing home that provides her with better care than she received at her previous facility. (Medicaid takes all he social security, and gets $100/day from the LTC insurance I bought for her).
In the case of my step-mom I provide her with a apartment at our summer home, and pay for electric and all home maintenance. I learned from experience that she will spend any cash she has on hand regardless of the consequences, so I only pay for specific things I am sure she needs, and then only of there is no alternative.
If I had more money, I would spend more on them; if I had less I would spend less. My primary concern is the long term welfare of my children, and one way to ensure their long term welfare is to ensure I never force them to make financial sacrifices for me.
Thanks for the compliment Jim. I always felt I was different (not superior, just different) from most of my family in that I am a natural saver and able to delay gratification. I started working and saving at age 5 and paid my own way through college and dental school, usually working at least two jobs. Residency was easy as it was the first time in my life I didn't have to work while in school. The discipline gained in military life hasn't hurt either. My parents are really nice people and taught me the value of hard work, but are short-term thinkers and rather impulsive. Thankfully I inherited their work ethic but not the short-term mindset. I was also lucky to marry someone who works as hard as I do and shares my values.Sheepdog wrote:To C319I copied your story for my wife to read. She said to tell you that your parents have a wonderful child....You!. And I agree. She would like to know how you obtained your values. You evidently did not inherit them.I'm facing this issue now with my own parents and it is really heartbreaking
Jim
I'm worried about my parents. My mother has always been financially inept / ignorant. Maybe not necessarily _bad_, but never really cared and was never willing to take the time to learn. She just let's my father do whatever he wants basically.
My father has never really cared a whole lot until I started to get into it. I recommended a bunch of boglehead oriented literature to him, pointed him to this forum, and verbally gave him bogleheaded like advice. But he would never listen to me ever, and somehow got himself hooked into all of these extremely ridiculous newsletters.
He is also a very religious man, but is honestly letting that get to him wayyyy too much as he is convinced the whole world is evil and the apocalypse is coming any day now and that financial matters are fruitless and only eternal life is what matters. *SIGH*
Despite that he sold everything at the bottom (read stuff that it was going to get worse and freaked out and sold). Then he never really got back in. He'd tell me he bought something, and then would sell it a week later if it went back down... GRRR.
His latest thing was to sell everything and buy only gold and silver. **GRRR even more**. And he bought a bunch of pre-1965 silver coins that I'm sure he got raped on.
It's a total disaster. He has cancer and so who knows how long he will last. Their money despite his best efforts to destroy it will probably hold out through his remaining years. My mother is totally screwed though. She barely turned 60, she "retired" several years ago, and is completely clueless.
I've tried to have many one on ones with her and my father to tell them that since they are out of the market (aside from precious metals) that inflation is going to _kill_ them. My mother probably has at least 30 more years of life in her. Her mom lived to 95.
It's absolutely heart wrenching
My father has never really cared a whole lot until I started to get into it. I recommended a bunch of boglehead oriented literature to him, pointed him to this forum, and verbally gave him bogleheaded like advice. But he would never listen to me ever, and somehow got himself hooked into all of these extremely ridiculous newsletters.
He is also a very religious man, but is honestly letting that get to him wayyyy too much as he is convinced the whole world is evil and the apocalypse is coming any day now and that financial matters are fruitless and only eternal life is what matters. *SIGH*
Despite that he sold everything at the bottom (read stuff that it was going to get worse and freaked out and sold). Then he never really got back in. He'd tell me he bought something, and then would sell it a week later if it went back down... GRRR.
His latest thing was to sell everything and buy only gold and silver. **GRRR even more**. And he bought a bunch of pre-1965 silver coins that I'm sure he got raped on.
It's a total disaster. He has cancer and so who knows how long he will last. Their money despite his best efforts to destroy it will probably hold out through his remaining years. My mother is totally screwed though. She barely turned 60, she "retired" several years ago, and is completely clueless.
I've tried to have many one on ones with her and my father to tell them that since they are out of the market (aside from precious metals) that inflation is going to _kill_ them. My mother probably has at least 30 more years of life in her. Her mom lived to 95.
It's absolutely heart wrenching
- schnoodlemom
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- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:06 am
We will face a similar situation with my grandmother by next year sometime - no more assets, more expenses than income, severe dementia but still too healthy for a nursing home. Worried about the future, I contacted our local Senior Services. They told me about a Medicaid program called Michigan Choice Waiver ( http://www.michigan.gov/mdch/0,1607,7-1 ... --,00.html ) that would pay for the care portion of her bill, but not room&board, once she has spent down her assets to Medicaid eligibility.frugalhen wrote:When my dad passed away he left a small sum of insurance $250k and no debt. Within a few years my mother blew through it. They were renting a place upon his passing and she rented until recently.
With some dementia she is now in assisted living and we pay $1400/month after moms social security and some va benefits for her to live there. ... if there is advice out there let me have it!
This program's aim is to avoid a premature transfer into a nursing home that would cost the state more money overall. I'm so grateful to know such a program exists, but can't apply for a while yet so haven't seen it in action. Their waiting list is about 4-6 months long so I've been told to keep an eye on the assets and time the application so they're <$2,000 when her case is reviewed, otherwise she'll be denied and go back on the waiting list. Perhaps your state has a similar program?
Another tip is to utilize your local hospice as soon as there is an indication it is appropriate (sometimes a big drop in weight and becoming more withdrawn are indicators). They will step in and take over a portion of her care, possibly reducing your assisted living fees. They also provide certain medical supplies (like medical bed, bedside commode, incontinence supplies, pain meds). So many people think hospice is for the last few weeks but it is really helpful months prior to demise.
Also, if you or your siblings are local you may be able to work out an arrangement with the facility to assume some duties to reduce her monthly fee. I do weekly cleaning, laundry and transport to all medical appointments which has meant $600 saved monthly because I could keep her at a lower care level. Perhaps your sister with debt has time she can help in this way.
Lastly, you may be able to private pay for a set number of hours of care to avoid a big jump in monthly fees. I haven't seen this in action either but it was presented to me as an option at her last care review. Her facility assess points for all aspects of care (0-58+). The total of these points puts the resident into one of five fee levels. The difference between levels is currently $600 monthly. You might utilize this strategy if there is only a small number of points putting you in a higher level. A made-up example: Grandma is showered twice per week. I could buy 10 hours of care a month at $15/hr for showers; savings would be $600-$150 or $450/month. The facility has a pool of contract staff (same as their regular) who want more hours, so they come in to just take care of those clients that pay under this program.
I have found that talking with the director of the assisted living is very helpful as she was very motivated to retain residents and would be very creative to keep our costs low.
Good luck with this difficult situation!
This is so true.GRT2BOUTDOORS wrote:Being responsible is not rewarded by friends either.....it just reeks havoc on having normal relationships due to human traits called jealousy and envy.
When watching friends or family repeat poor financial behavior, it is best to stay out of it unless it becomes desperate.
Also, be vague about your situation. No one will be happy for you. They will be jealous and then resentful if you do not bail them out. You will be the focus of the negative energy
Most people like this have NO capacity for introspection. They will never change.
Just love them for what they are and stay out of the situation if you can. No lectures, no judgement and most importantly, keep your finances private.
Just my 2 cents
My father was a good man who worked really hard but didn't know how to invest. He died right before retirement and didn't even get to enjoy the fruits of his labor. Judging from other posts on this thread, I am thankful that my mom allow me to help her with investment even if it's like pulling teeth. She is also financially responsible and don't want to be a burden to her kids.
I think any help given must be temper with whether you are helping them in the long run. For some, they are just in a tight spot and giving them cash will help them get out of the hole. For others, it's like feeding gasoline to the fire.
Paul
I think any help given must be temper with whether you are helping them in the long run. For some, they are just in a tight spot and giving them cash will help them get out of the hole. For others, it's like feeding gasoline to the fire.
Paul
A common theme in the postings and I will reenforce: Do not enable people who can't manage money by giving them money. It is just good money after bad, it disappears down a black hole, and it doesn't actually improve their situation.
If it doesn't actually improve their situation, you know you shouldn't do it. So, learn from the example of others and don't give them money.
You have no obligation to contribute money, if it will make no difference, which it will not.
Don't give them any money, unless they have a plan and will follow it until the end of their lives. If you give them money, and they go broke and file bankruptcy anyway, your contibution to them was a complete waste. Again, because it didn't change the outcome.
Hopefully, some variation on the above will sink in for people facing this situation. It is the hardest financial lesson to learn in these situations.
If it doesn't actually improve their situation, you know you shouldn't do it. So, learn from the example of others and don't give them money.
You have no obligation to contribute money, if it will make no difference, which it will not.
Don't give them any money, unless they have a plan and will follow it until the end of their lives. If you give them money, and they go broke and file bankruptcy anyway, your contibution to them was a complete waste. Again, because it didn't change the outcome.
Hopefully, some variation on the above will sink in for people facing this situation. It is the hardest financial lesson to learn in these situations.
Leonard |
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Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? |
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If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
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exactly. it feels compassionate to the giver, but isn't.leonard wrote:A common theme in the postings and I will reenforce: Do not enable people who can't manage money by giving them money. It is just good money after bad, it disappears down a black hole, and it doesn't actually improve their situation.
It feels compassionate to the giver. I agree. Also, the alternative of not doing anything makes them feel guilty, which is at least as much a motivator.letsgobobby wrote:exactly. it feels compassionate to the giver, but isn't.leonard wrote:A common theme in the postings and I will reenforce: Do not enable people who can't manage money by giving them money. It is just good money after bad, it disappears down a black hole, and it doesn't actually improve their situation.
Leonard |
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Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? |
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If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
I agree with the above poster;givinng people money is often a waste. My parents were in a difficult spot and I decided the best way to help was with housing which I bought and paid taxes on for them. This allowed them to use ss to live. It all worked out as they have passed away and the real estate worked out to be better than break even when I sold it. It is sometimes possible to help without throwing money down a rabbit hole but I think I was also lucky this worked out as well as it did.