Merill Lynch Versus Vanguard

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ramamop
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Merill Lynch Versus Vanguard

Post by ramamop »

Currently I do have Vanguard for my IRA.

Looking to open a brokerage account for my taxed savings.

What are the best bokerage firms

1. Vanguard
2. Merril Lynch
3. Wells Fargo
4. Scottrade

I may qualify for free trades at Merril Lynch, as I do banking with BoA.
However are there any additional fees at ML.

Would like to buy and hold various Mutual funds and stocks for the next 5 years.

May be do some stocks for the swing trade.

Looking to keep the cost low overall.

Vanguard is good overall, looking at $20 transaction fees for non VG funds.
ML looks temping with the free trades, however seems like there are other hidden costs.
Last edited by ramamop on Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
stlutz
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Post by stlutz »

What are you looking to do with your brokerage account? (e.g. buy other funds, stocks, bonds, futures, options, get advice all of the above etc.). What the "best" brokerage is depends upon what you are trying to accomplish.
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woof755
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Post by woof755 »

VG ETF purchases are free at Vanguard, as are mutual funds, of course.
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cliffedelgado
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Post by cliffedelgado »

Regarding ML:

True you get 30 free trades/month if you have 25K in your deposit account.

Watch out for the maintenance fee if you don't have 50K:

Code: Select all

CMA account maintenance fee	
$25 per quarter, per household. Waived if the client meets just one of the following criteria:

Has total combined balances of $50,000 or more in Merrill Lynch investment accounts and Bank of America, N.A. deposit accounts
Or, executes 60+ trades per year / 15+ trades per quarter in one or more self-directed accounts
edge
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Post by edge »

Merrill should not be in the 'best of' anything.
livesoft
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Post by livesoft »

Ditch BoA and don't go with ML.

WellsFargo has been the best deal in the business for a few years now. I leave it to you to research and understand why.
epilnk
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Post by epilnk »

This is a joke posting, right? ML vs Vanguard? I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my sense of humor about ML, but after our experience I wouldn't let them manage my kid's $4 allowance even if they paid me $25 per quarter.
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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius »

Kiplinger's rated 14 online brokerages:

https://guidance.fidelity.com/static/dc ... s-2010.pdf

Of the 14, Vanguard ranked fourth, Scottrade seventh, Merrill Edge tenth, with the comment "This newcomer charges high fees."

Wells Fargo wasn't rated.

I personally had a bad experience with Merrill Lynch back in the 1980s, but, you know, that was a while ago and they literally aren't the same any more :)

There are small but meaningful benefits to investing at Vanguard if the core of your portfolio is going to be Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs.

I give a lot of credence to what Livesoft says. Apparently Wells Fargo is one of the relatively few places where you can buy and sell Vanguard funds without a transaction fee, so--he can speak for himself but I believe his concept is that it's just as good as Vanguard for Vanguard products, and better than Vanguard for non-Vanguard products.

I use Fidelity as well as Vanguard. Fidelity ranked first in the Kiplinger's article, but I don't care to use it as my only brokerage because they charge a $75 transaction fee for Vanguard funds.
Last edited by nisiprius on Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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fishndoc
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Post by fishndoc »

epilnk wrote:This is a joke posting, right? ML vs Vanguard? I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my sense of humor about ML, but after our experience I wouldn't let them manage my kid's $4 allowance even if they paid me $25 per quarter.
:thumbsup

The only thing "good" that came from my brief association with ML, is that they stuck it to me so badly, I was inspired to learn how to manage my own investments.
" Successful investing involves doing just a few things right, and avoiding serious mistakes." - J. Bogle
filmtheory
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Post by filmtheory »

ML recommended "suitable" investments for my parents that were redundant and had sky-high ERs and front-load and end-load fees.
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kcyahoo
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Post by kcyahoo »

epilnk wrote:This is a joke posting, right? ML vs Vanguard? I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my sense of humor about ML, but after our experience I wouldn't let them manage my kid's $4 allowance even if they paid me $25 per quarter.
You mean like ML being fined hundreds of millions of dollars over the years for scr*wing their own customers? Qualifier, they did not officially admit to any wrong doing, just wanted to pay the fines to get the allegations out of the way, wink wink.
Retired @ 57, now 75 | was 50/45/5, then 42/54/04, now 35/60/5 | KC
epilnk
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Post by epilnk »

fishndoc wrote:
epilnk wrote:This is a joke posting, right? ML vs Vanguard? I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my sense of humor about ML, but after our experience I wouldn't let them manage my kid's $4 allowance even if they paid me $25 per quarter.
:thumbsup

The only thing "good" that came from my brief association with ML, is that they stuck it to me so badly, I was inspired to learn how to manage my own investments.
Yep, Merrill should be given credit for one thing. I'd be willing to bet they drove more investors to the Bogleheads than any other brokerage.
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JeremiahS
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Re: Merill Lynch Versus Vanguard

Post by JeremiahS »

ramamop wrote:I may qualify for free trades at Merril Lynch, as I do banking with BoA.
However are there any additional fees at ML.
You may wish to see my previous thread:
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... highlight=
JeremiahS wrote:I received papers last night for the BoA Investment Services conversion to Merrill Lynch. I briefly went over these last night. What jumped out at me was Merrill's $75 quarterly fee for all accounts under $20,000 as well as their 0.25% of total assets custodial fee.
Now this in formation is for IRA accounts, but I don't guess that their regular brokerage accounds would be much different. Also you may wish to know that when BoA changed over to Merril Lynch I found that their level of customer servies dropped noticably.
livesoft
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Post by livesoft »

epilnk wrote:This is a joke posting, right? ML vs Vanguard? I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my sense of humor about ML, but after our experience I wouldn't let them manage my kid's $4 allowance even if they paid me $25 per quarter.
I'd go with them if they paid me $25 for every 25 cents I invested with them. :)
jdouge
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Post by jdouge »

fishndoc wrote:The only thing "good" that came from my brief association with ML, is that they stuck it to me so badly, I was inspired to learn how to manage my own investments.
My experience summed up precisely in a sentence. I don't know much about Wells Fargo or Scottrade, but I now know a lot about Vanguard (and Fidelity and Schwab), and painfully more about Merrill, and I wouldn't go anywhere near ML. When they aren't selling clueless clients (like me then) front- and end-loaded funds with huge expense ratios and 12(b)-1 costs, they're busy getting caught by the SEC for manipulating state pension funds, etc.

Stay far, far away.
yobria
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Post by yobria »

Knowing what they're doing to 99% of their "clients", I wouldn't invest at ML, even though I personally may be getting a good deal.

Nick
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Taylor Larimore
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Another way

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Hi Ramamop:

We now invest directly with Vanguard, stay-the-course, and avoid brokerages entirely.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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paulob
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Post by paulob »

I just closed my ML account (previously BOA) due to the maintenance fees that were scheduled to begin in 2011.

Vanguard, in addition to the high trade fees, has a bare bones trading platform (not what I would pick for swing trades).

Scottrade has no close out fees, $7 trades, a lot of local offices, might be worth a look.

Wells Fargo is where I make my stock trades (IRA). They are making a transition to their Wells Fargo Advisors. Their literature describing this change has been a source of confusion for me. There apparently was a grandfather date of 1/1/11 to avoid annual account fees for non-IRA brokerage accounts. So, I recommend more research for this option.
Last edited by paulob on Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RabbMD »

I just moved from wells fargo to vanguard. The new changes to their brokerage made me nervous, and I thought their website sucked anyways. I got out fee free (of course they charged transfer fees and I had to call and complain). We will see how it goes. I did not dislike wells, just wanted admiral funds with vanguard and am targeting yoyager type benefits in a few years for whatever they are worth. If I dislike vangaurd I can always move back to wells if they do not change for the worse on the new platform, as vanguard does not charge transfer fees.
ResNullius
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Post by ResNullius »

I would strongly recommend ML if you are a person who likes to get cheated, robbed, defrauded, and just plained nailed to the wall on a daily basis by someone you thought was looking out for your best interests.
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Post by MarkNYC »

ResNullius wrote:I would strongly recommend ML if you are a person who likes to get cheated, robbed, defrauded, and just plained nailed to the wall on a daily basis by someone you thought was looking out for your best interests.
C'mon ResNullius, don't sugar coat it. What is your honest opinion of Merrill Lynch?
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Post by abuss368 »

We were with Merrill Lynch many years ago, then Vanguard, followed by Brown Co., which was bought out by eTrade.

Only then did we end up back with Vanguard and became a true Boglehead!
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Post by ResNullius »

MarkNYC wrote:
ResNullius wrote:I would strongly recommend ML if you are a person who likes to get cheated, robbed, defrauded, and just plained nailed to the wall on a daily basis by someone you thought was looking out for your best interests.
C'mon ResNullius, don't sugar coat it. What is your honest opinion of Merrill Lynch?
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, but how I feel is how I feel. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
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Taylor Larimore
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Moving to Vanguard in 1986

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Hi Res:

I believe Mark was making a joke.

Moving from Merrill Lynch to Vanguard in 1986 was the best financial decision I ever made.
Last edited by Taylor Larimore on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MarkNYC
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Post by MarkNYC »

ResNullius wrote:
MarkNYC wrote:
ResNullius wrote:I would strongly recommend ML if you are a person who likes to get cheated, robbed, defrauded, and just plained nailed to the wall on a daily basis by someone you thought was looking out for your best interests.
C'mon ResNullius, don't sugar coat it. What is your honest opinion of Merrill Lynch?
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, but how I feel is how I feel. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
You didn't step on my toes. I think ML deserves the criticism they receive.
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ramamop
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Post by ramamop »

MarkNYC wrote:
ResNullius wrote:
MarkNYC wrote:
ResNullius wrote:I would strongly recommend ML if you are a person who likes to get cheated, robbed, defrauded, and just plained nailed to the wall on a daily basis by someone you thought was looking out for your best interests.
C'mon ResNullius, don't sugar coat it. What is your honest opinion of Merrill Lynch?
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, but how I feel is how I feel. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
You didn't step on my toes. I think ML deserves the criticism they receive.
Thanks, I got my point. Will cancel ML and stick with VG. Pay a couple of bokerage fees, if I choose to buy some stocks...
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Post by dwimagine »

I switched from ML to Vanguard a week ago, but most of my experiences were with the former B of A investments. Long story short, I chose moving to Vanguard over moving to ML Edge (from ML advisory centric accounts) because my core interests of tracking indexes at low fees is what Vanguard is known for. I could have done the same with ML Edge or really any other broker through ETFs and the various free trade or free ETF deals they offer. Vanguard's offerings are competitive with most others, but more importantly their principles matched mine and I was tired of the advisors and their agendas. When comparing my experiences with both ML and Vanguard during the transfer process I feel that Vanguard's principles are not just a marketing line.
Market345
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Post by Market345 »

ML is terrible and their website is very poor and you'll end up wasting time tring to get things done. For example, if you have a quick question or an issue, you cannot send an email or message online; you have to call and wait in queue on the telephone to get anything (even ask a quick question) done. Their muni bond screener doesn't even let you filter by state! If you need to transfer more than $25k between your BofA bank accounts and the linked ML Edge account, you must make a phone call. I could go on and on how their website and platform are the worst out there today. I'm moving everything away from them ... the 30 free trades/month isn't worth it.
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BruceM
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Post by BruceM »

And if you need some examples...

FINRA Fines Merrill Lynch, UBS for Supervisory Failures in Sales of Closed-End Funds; Customers Get More Than $5 Million in Remediation

http://www.finra.org/Newsroom/NewsReleases/2009/P119457

FINRA Fines Merrill Lynch $500,000 for UIT Sales Discounts Failures

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/securi ... lures.html

Finra fines Merrill Lynch $2.5M in sales charge case

http://www.investmentnews.com/article/2 ... /100819901

Merrill Lynch Stockbroker Sentenced to Prison in New York

http://www.investmentfraud-lawyer-blog. ... 10-6.shtml

And the list goes on and on.

Why really gets me is following a huge fine for essentially stealing client's money, I've never seen a response from a ML spokesperson that denouces the activity, punishes the ML employee or makes reference to the importance of safeguarding ML client account or anything concilliatory. Nope, its pay the fine and go right back doing what they were doing...except perhaps to have an internal meeting to determine how they got caught so as to avoid that the next time...

...don't take this wrong, but you (or anyone else considering ML) would have to be out of their mind to go with this outfit

And just for giggles...try to Google something like 'Vanguard and SEC or FINRA fines'. I did, and found nothing.

BruceM
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Post by afan »

That is not even the tip of the iceberg of ML legal troubles. That is simply typical of firms that employ brokers to hawk investments. ML, in particular- nearly went bankrupt, illegally paid massive bonuses (with taxpayer money) to the executives who had made the bailout necessary, still in up to their eyeballs in the unfolding mortgage mess. It goes on and on.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-s ... r-own-firm

In a way, you have to admire them for coming to work everyday, and keeping the name. People with less staying power, or some sense of shame, would have at least changed the name.

The firm continues to have lawsuit management as its primary occupation. I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.
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paulob
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Post by paulob »

As stated in my prior post, I just closed my Merrill Lynch account. However, I would segregate the Self-Directed option that was my former BOA account from the full-service brokerage.

The free trades offered by ML differ from state to state. If my state had similar requirements to Wells Fargo, I would reconsider (the Self-directed option).
Paul
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