Refusing to pay a bill

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amador
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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:09 am

Refusing to pay a bill

Post by amador »

What consequences can I expect from refusing to pay a bill? I have been misled by a company (AT&T) that claims I owe them $180 on a service that was supposed to be half of what they are asking and that in the end I have never used. After having explained the situation to three people in that company, they have canceled the service but they claim I still owe them about $100 after I return their wireless router.

I feel abused and at the end of my rope after having tried to be very civil about this.

My credit history is thus far very good (FICO 750). Should I expect to lose a lot because of this?
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desertbanshee
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bill

Post by desertbanshee »

Amador,
If you do nothing, they WILL put it on your credit. You can buy yourself time by filing a complaint with the BBB - Better Business Bureau. The complaint can be filed online, and takes only a few minutes. If the BBB finds that you owe it, pay it to maintain your high credit score. Best wishes.
marco100
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Re: Refusing to pay a bill

Post by marco100 »

amador wrote:What consequences can I expect from refusing to pay a bill? I have been misled by a company (AT&T) that claims I owe them $180 on a service that was supposed to be half of what they are asking and that in the end I have never used. After having explained the situation to three people in that company, they have canceled the service but they claim I still owe them about $100 after I return their wireless router.

I feel abused and at the end of my rope after having tried to be very civil about this.

My credit history is thus far very good (FICO 750). Should I expect to lose a lot because of this?
Don't just refuse to pay it. You need to document in writing that you are disputing the bill, and why. Did you sign a written contract? If so, that will probably govern your obligations. If not, it's hard to see how they could hold you to something that you did not agree to.
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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius »

Whenever you realize that you're getting into a "situation," start a physical file and document, document, document.

Every time you're on the phone with someone, get their name, ask for a reference number for the conversation--not every place has such a thing but some do, and for the ones that don't ask specifically how you can refer to it.

Keep photocopies of everything. Dig up every scrap of paper you ever got from them--the brochure describing the service, any ad you saw that induced you to try it, and certainly anything resembling a contract. Start getting the images of the cancelled checks from your bank, or any other proofs of anything you've paid them.

In all of your dealings with anyone about this, your message is "I'm not a deadbeat. I'm a customer with a legitimate beef." The purpose of all the documentation is not anything legal, it is to help you send that message.

The serious stuff, particularly with regard to your credit rating, probably doesn't start until they think you're ninety days late.

Typically you get a bill, then a bill that shows an overdue amount and a friendly reminder and perhaps some kind of late payment penalty, then ones with edgy or nasty comments on them that vaguely imply legal action or the use of a collection agency.

If possible, find some reason for paying part of the bill. Don't just pay an arbitrary fraction, but pay the part you think is fair and correct and refuse to pay the part that you dispute. That will make it clearer to anyone reviewing the matter that you're not just being a deadbeat, and it may confuse or slow down whatever computerized processes they use to counting down the ninety days and initiate nastiness.

Return the wireless router promptly, and use a service like UPS that provides a tracking number and proof of delivery.

Did you pay by credit card? If so, run do not walk to the phone and talk to your credit card company. I have found this to be an effective and powerful way of resolving situations in which in my opinion a merchant didn't perform. I've done it perhaps five times in twenty years and it has always worked.

Complain in writing. Write a very simple complaint letter. The first sentence should say what you want them to do (cancel the $100). Then give the simplest reason you can as to why you think that's fair. Keep it polite. Don't exaggerate or get legalistic. (You're not going to initiate legal action over $100 and they know it, so don't bluff). Keep it to less than a page long. Don't give too many details. If there's something concrete, like "The representative told me thus-and-such, but then when I got it I found out thus-and-such" then do say that. If you're angry, say you're angry but try not to express that anger.

In a complaint letter it is perfectly OK to give as a reason something like "I don't feel this is fair, because XYZ." For example, maybe the contract says you have to pay for a whole month of something even if you only use a part of it. It doesn't matter: just say "I only used one week of service and I don't think it's fair that I should pay for a whole month."

The person who reads that complaint letter isn't going to be a lawyer, it's going to be someone not terribly senior who will be making two judgements: "am I authorized to give this person what he wants?" "As a matter of keeping customers happy, does it seem reasonable to do so?"

Ask AT&T where to send the complaint letter. Send it to wherever they say. Consider sending one to the office of the CEO of AT&T: it probably won't help but it can't hurt. That would be, let me see, click click, Ed Whitacre, 175 E. Houston
San Antonio, TX 78205-2233 I think, but double-check.

Accept the fact that you will be spending mucho quality time listening to music on hold and talking to representatives, and that in the end you may still end up with a ding on your credit. I believe credit ratings are mostly based on patterns, not single incidents, and I don't think it would amount to much.

Find that website where you can get your credit reports for free--the one that's really for free. If you know your FICO score you probably already know about it. Get your credit reports in about six months and if anything shows up on it follow the appropriate formal resolution process. This is a total wild-ass guess here, as I've never seen how late payments show up, but the thing I would try to insist on is that the credit report at least identify the late payment as "disputed."

Be open to the possibility that one thing you can do just pay the damn $100 and hate AT&T and try not to ever deal with them again.

In which case, the polite complaint letter will open by saying that what you want is the $100 back.

Of course, as Dave Barry noted, if you make a habit of putting companies on your mental s--- list, by the time you're middle-aged, every time you go out to buy something you have to drive five miles because every place in your own town has done something to make you say "I'll never deal with them again."
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Regal 56
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Post by Regal 56 »

The advice by nisiprius is excellent, and I'll add only one thing. Do not say anything about lawyers or legal action. Large corporations have an army of lawyers to throw at a problem, so you're outgunned from the beginning. It's better for you to portray yourself as a legitimate customer with a legitimate complaint. The substance of your communications should be something along the lines of "obviously I have a fair objection, and I'm sure a reputable company like yours wants to resolve this matter fairly."

Try not to guffaw when you say this.

If you're polite but persistent, they may eventually resolve the matter in your favor just to make you go away. Of course, whether they choose to do so will depend on how strong a case you have.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
bearcat98
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Post by bearcat98 »

Regal 56 wrote:Do not say anything about lawyers or legal action. Large corporations have an army of lawyers to throw at a problem, so you're outgunned from the beginning. It's better for you to portray yourself as a legitimate customer with a legitimate complaint.
Also, they may just send your file to their legal department to prepare for battle if you sound litigious. If you make it a customer service issue, and portray yourself as an otherwise loyal customer, they may have different people, whose job is to placate you, work on the issue.
Topic Author
amador
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Wow, thanks

Post by amador »

Thanks for all the advice, people. Looks like I have a lot of homework ahead.

I have only one more question for any Diehard in California: besides the BBB, isn't there a state customer protection agency where one can send a copy of these complaints?
kyuss
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Post by kyuss »

isn't there a state customer protection agency where one can send a copy of these complaints?

You can mail a complaint to the state Attorney General's office.

Good luck with AT&T, I had some issues with them a few years back, it was a huge PITA. I ended up paying the bill just to get it over with, now I avoid anything related to them at all costs.
kyuss
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Post by kyuss »

Here's a link to the consumer page:

http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/
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pjstack
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Post by pjstack »

Kyuss: Thanks for the link. I have it bookmarked. (I am not the OP)
pjstack
xenial
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Re: Ideas

Post by xenial »

nisiprius wrote:Find that website where you can get your credit reports for free--the one that's really for free.
It's https://www.annualcreditreport.com .

Best wishes,
Ken
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Yuba
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Post by Yuba »

Another agency to contact in CA is the Public Service Commission. I'm not sure how regulated the internet portion is in CA, but I know the phone regulation is pretty tight in CA with the PSC.

Rick dba Yuba
2stepsbehind
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Post by 2stepsbehind »

I wonder if anyone has thoughts on my situation. I'm currently in dispute with my student loan provider about the amount of interest that has been charged. Complicated story, but the short version is I took a private loan with accessgroup in Dec of 2006 for 12k (interest rate ~7.67%). I ended up getting a co-op off campus so I no longer needed the funds. My school returned $8,700 in late Feb and $3,300 in early April. Accessgroup in theory has a policy where funds returned within 120 days avoids all fees and interest. They argue that the second payment came a day too late and thus they processed it as a payment as opposed to a cancellation. Thus according to them I have a principle balance of $329 + interest of $11-12. I have been arguing that the second payment was made within the 120 day period, but even if it wasn't, I believe interest should only be calculated on the $3,300 so I'm unsure of where they are getting $329+. Because I am still in school no payments are due, that said I'd like to resolve this question quickly. I just feel like each day we keep going back and forth i keep racking up more interest.
sscritic
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Post by sscritic »

2steps:

Here is my guess. The truth is in your contract.

Does it say no fees on any money returned within 120 days or no fees if all money returned within 120 days? Also, if you have a credit card debt and pay the full balance on time, there is no finance charge. If you pay all but $1, the finance charge will be computed on the full amount, not just the $1 not paid. You may have been charged interest on the full amount as it was not completely returned within the 120 days.

Your contract is what determines the charges.
ksJoe
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Post by ksJoe »

You can send a complaint to your state attorney general for deceptive business practices, etc. Just be sure to CC them on it! I've sent complaints to the state insurance commissioner, and gotten things immediately resolved.

Or if you'd like to have a little fun....

When I get in in a situation with a big company, I get out my microphone that plugs into the phone line and record the conversations (a few dollars at radio shack).

Their big automated phone systems aways say "this call may be recorded for training or quality assurance purposes". I'd like to be assured of quality, so I just smile and say thank you for the permission into the microphone.

How am I supposed to know whether they intend for "may" to convey a possibility of what they might do - or - to convey permission of what I'm allowed to do? I'm not a lawyer :D

-Joe
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springwater
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Post by springwater »

If you care about your credit score, you should listen to all the advice in this thread.

But if you are financially independent, have a paid-off house, have no need to take out a loan or care to have a good credit score like if say you were retired with a solid pension and multi-million dollar portfolio.......then I'd make an argument you don't have to pay. Tell them to #$$# themselves.

The worst they can do is file suit against you and they would never do that over such a small amount of money. Unless the bill is over $2,000, companies don't bother suing you directly. And that figure may be low. It could be $5,000 or more before they go after suing you.

What they may do is charge off your account and then sell it for pennies to a collection agency. They can get annoying but the worst they do is just call you. That's why you get caller id and don't accept calls from phone numbers you don't know. You never have to answer their calls.

After that, you just wait it out. All states have a statute of limitations of some kind on lawsuits over bills or contracts. They can vary from 3 years to I think 7 or 10 years. Most are in the neighborhood of 5 years.
Kevinm1986
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Post by Kevinm1986 »

I'd say give them the $100 and tell them to (insert your favorite offensive comment here). Even if you have a 100% of succeeding, if you spend 20 hours on this you aren't making minimum wage.

Of course, if you enjoy dragging them around, then by all means do so. But ask yourself, "Is this how I want to be spending my time?"
chisey
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About your credit

Post by chisey »

This will have no effect on your credit score UNLESS (until?) they send collections after you. AT&T is not a lender in this situation and as such does NO reporting to the credit bureaus. In fact, I can't tell you for sure that non-credit collections will show up on your file either. This is a debit bureau, not credit bureau, issue, so this may never hit you even if they call collections on you.

That is not to say you shouldn't pay it or seek resolution. I couldn't leave such a bill in limbo even if I knew it would not affect my credit. This could cause all sorts of other troubles. I just want to clarify the credit situation as there is often confusion about what happens in situations like this (utilities, phone, cable, etc.) where there is no lending involved. That is not a credit reporting situation unless the collections agency they hire reports a file on you.
Topic Author
amador
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Just to report what happened

Post by amador »

I won a pyrrhic vicgtory in the end: I had my services restored without reconnection charge and I agreed to pay most of the bill that was in dispute.

The way it ended was funny: I was always warning everybody I spoke with that I was recording the conversation, until I got to one supervisor whom I thought was forewarned. As we discussed the case, she claimed she could not do anything for me but she admitted to misleading information on the AT&T website (!), to cust serv reps lacking knowledge of the products they serve (!!), and to one of the other supervisors, by full name, having lied to me (!!!). At that point I realized that the person who passed her to me had not warned her that I was recording all that, and I told her.

She exploding big time, claimed that what I was doing was illegal, etc. I told her that I had already warned the first person I spoke with and that we were in the same phone call. I also added that their warning "this conversion may be recorded" implies consent for me to record the call.

She went off 5 minutes (probably to consult with legal department

Here is my impression of what may have happened. I am not a lawyer, so I would really appreciate any insights:
-California law requires two people to agree to the conversation being recorded. Since my phone call was being made from an out-of-state phone number, could the call be federal jurisdiction?
-Courts in California and Massachusetts have agreed that when a party informs that a call "may be monitored or recorded", this party is implicitly giving permission to all others to call.
-Or, the most probable, she did not want to run into any trouble and decided to lose sight of me asap and, since I already had made concessions, gave me what I wanted.
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Post by bolt »

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Mel Lindauer
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Post by Mel Lindauer »

You always want to make sure that you're letting them know that you're contesting the charges and documenting the challenge, since my understanding of the credit law is that they cannot turn in the non-payment of a contested charge to the credit reporting agencies until it's finally resolved.

Regards,

Mel
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