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Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
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werd2u
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Post by werd2u »

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Last edited by werd2u on Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alex Frakt
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Post by Alex Frakt »

You've got a part-time job. Sure it's a little unconventional, but if you want to go into finance, I can't see how it would hurt you. Continue to keep good records and have a summary of those records with you at your interview in case the question comes up.

Be prepared to answer when they ask "Why do you want to come work for us if you're already making $100 an hour playing poker?"
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SecretAsianMan
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Post by SecretAsianMan »

I just went through the process of getting a law firm job in NYC, and the three years I spent playing poker between college and law school was just about the only thing on my resume the hiring attorneys wanted to talk about. Everybody thought it was great and wanted to hear all about it. I ended up getting an offer from every firm I had an interview with.

If I were you, I would emphasize your poker experience. It'll be a unique thing on your resume that'll set you apart from the masses. Definitely be prepared for the "Why the hell would you want to do this if you could support yourself on poker?" question, though. I got that from just about everyone.

You still might want to get a relevant internship or two while you're in school. I don't think any old job would be of much help, but it would definitely be a big help if your uncle could get you some kind of finance-related job in NYC for the summer (although I'm guessing such jobs are probably pretty sparse right now).

Frankly, graduating from Nebraska is going to be your biggest impediment to getting a finance job in NYC. You better try to use your uncle or any other connections you have and network like crazy over the next couple years. How successful you are at that will probably be the determining factor in whether you have a good shot at getting the job you want upon graduation.

Good luck!

SAM
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Post by veryamusing »

If what you say is true, then I would take your poker playing experiences and write a dissertation relating them to finance. Talk about probabilities, risk/reward, etc. Present that to potential employers, or at least bring it up somehow and talk about what you've learned playing poker.

Like another poster said, people are interested in poker, and if you could steer the conversation toward the finance theory aspect of it, you'd knock their socks off.
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greg24
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Post by greg24 »

I don't know about poker impacting your job search, but your lack of a job waiting tables certainly isn't going to hurt. An internship in your field would be nice to have on your resume, but just a regular job shouldn't matter.
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SecretAsianMan
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Post by SecretAsianMan »

Veryamusing made a good point. In my interviews I talked quite a bit about how poker honed my risk management and other skills in a very high-pressure environment; there are lots of parallels to be made with poker and finance jobs. The dissertation idea would be a great way to show that you just weren't just like every other college guy who plays some poker on the side.

SAM
G. Jules
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Post by G. Jules »

I'd second the suggestions to go for an internship (preferably in NYC) and try to find coursework that can relate poker and finance.

Can't speak for everyone, of course, but the #1 thing that turns me off when interviewing prospective entry-level employees is people who don't know why they're interested in the job/industry. If you can establish why you're committed to finance as a career, I think you'll be golden.
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Post by taxman »

Wow........Good luck to you! Both Alex* and veryamusing* make great points as well as the other posters in your thread. Relating risk/reward/odds/etc. from your PT(poker) job to finance interviewers I'd think would get you in the door. I would'nt settle for "conventional" if you've found your 'niche, but nothing lasts forever! If you diversified a tad beween your poker PT and get a great finance position you'd be able to retire earlier than most then continue your poker as a PT pasttime THAT PAYS! Hats off to you!
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Poker-related skills and abilities

Post by VictoriaF »

On a long flight I got into a discussion with my seat mate, a man in his thirties who makes his living off playing poker. He shared some interesting insights, e.g., the role of dark glasses, differences between playing in person and over the Internet, etc.

A few things he mentioned may help you to present your special skills at interviews. Specifically, it is important to understand your opponent's style and exploit it to your advantage. A similar ability may be useful in finance, i.e., understanding the habits of those with whom you trade, understanding the peculiarities of the international market place, etc. Also, good poker performance requires superior pattern recognition which is also a factor in IQ.

You may write a dissertation related to the extensibility of poker skills to performance in finance, as somebody suggested.

Good luck,
Victoria
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J-e-L-L-o
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Post by J-e-L-L-o »

a lil bit off topic, but not really.

have you really thought of ALL your job options post grad?

With your degree and poker skills...why not market yourself internationally? Heck, how bout a job in the hospitality arena. Vegas, Hong Kong, Singapore...

With money NOT a motivating factor I believe you have a better leg up than most applicants. With that in mind, why limit yourself to a regular position with an established firm? Like someone said, Nebraska could be a limiting factor. Have you considered a masters or MBA at a big school for entrepreneurial degree?

The sky really is the limit for you. I wish you the best of luck. Keep good records and don't limit yourself to what u can do!
"Not everything that can be counted...counts; And not everything that counts can be counted."
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werd2u
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Post by werd2u »

Thanks for all the great replies. Nebraska actually has a very good Finance program, obviously not as prestigious as some ivy league schools, but a lot of people from NE have done very well for themselves. Maybe when I pursue my masters, I'll take a look at some other schools.

How much is graduating from Nebraska going to set me back? What I've heard from people like my Uncle is that there is no difference in the actual education you recieve, just the prestige that goes along with an ivy league school.

As for poker, it's getting to the point where I'm quite burnt out, and I definately don't see myself playing to pay my bills for the rest of my life, which is a great reason as to why I would want to work for some company when I can easily support myself playing cards. I realize I'm probably going to have to take a paycut fresh out of college which is why I'm really looking for something I will enjoy waking up for, and probably should consider a lot more options.
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Post by White Coat Investor »

I wouldn't hire someone who was a big poker player. But if the person USED to be a big poker player, I'd think that was pretty cool.

Having it in your past makes you unique and exciting. Having it in your present makes me wonder if you'll be on poker websites during working hours, or coming in late and tired after a long night etc.

Maybe I'm just prejudiced against gamblers, I dunno. At any rate, you're 19, how much work experience do people really expect you to have? My work experience at 19 consisted of a couple of minimum wage jobs.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
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Post by JasonR »

Sorry, but I keep thinking of that movie, "Unforgiven", where Clint Eastwood thinks he's given up killing but really hasn't. Or "Open Range". Are you really gonna give up poker?

Jason
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Post by satori »

Hi Werd2u,
That's truly wonderful that you've been able to make enough money playing poker that you can independently pay for college and have a portfolio at a young age. And yes, some of the skillls gained in poker are transferrable. But please don't rely too much on the poker angle. Your poker skills and the money it continues to bring in is no substitute for experience in the workplace. You've got to keep a good balance. And, if you are spending 20-30 hours a week playing, then that's a lot hours you are not spending studying, and making use of all that college has to offer. Have you joined the finance or investment club, done community work, gone to rotary club meetings, networked with fellow majors. Have you attended talks by invited speakers to the business school. Have you developed your ability to organize events and people, have you engaged your fellow classmates intellectually. This is where playing poker may be holding you back a bit. And this is where an internship or two will be critical to your marketability. An internship is a wonderful and effective way to connect your academic experience with the professional work arena. It allows you to gain valuable exposure to the workplace, provides the opportunity for skill development, and can give you a competitive edge in the job search.
Hmm Nebraska? I've heard of at least one Nebraskan who has done spectacularly well for himself. Maybe you can spend a summer at Berkshire Hathaway in Omaha!
All best to you. You're off to a great start!
~Satori
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Post by Alex Frakt »

JasonR wrote:Sorry, but I keep thinking of that movie, "Unforgiven", where Clint Eastwood thinks he's given up killing but really hasn't. Or "Open Range". Are you really gonna give up poker?
You don't have to be a degenerate gambler to grind out a living playing poker. In fact, it helps a lot if you aren't. The pro has to approach it like a job, turning small mathematical advantages into a livable income stream through the sheer number of hands played. Especially the internet pro, for whom the lack of physical contact and tendency to play multiple games at once makes the game even more mechanical.

Think of the plight of the mid-level pro as someone playing a game with a 20-sided die. Their skill and knowledge gives them a 5% edge, so if the roll comes up 1-11, they win. 12-20, they lose. Even though they would expect to win given enough throws, how ultimately interesting is the game?
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mlebuf
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Post by mlebuf »

werd2u wrote:Thanks for all the great replies. Nebraska actually has a very good Finance program, obviously not as prestigious as some ivy league schools, but a lot of people from NE have done very well for themselves.
Yes, there's a guy from Omaha who has done pretty well for himself as an investor. :D

IMO, having an Ivy League degree is only helpful coming out of school. It may open some doors that would not have otherwise been open to you. However, after that it's what you produce that counts and not where you went to school, or even if you graduated. Your talent for making money playing poker may garner you more interviews than several Ivy League degrees. It's a great way to differentiate yourself from the pack.

Have you ever thought about writing a book teaching others how to make money playing poker? It seems like a very marketable book topic, and another possible source of income. Also, having a published book would look great on your resume.

Best wishes,
Michael
Best wishes, | Michael | | Invest your time actively and your money passively.
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Post by cannedham »

If you want to work as a finance guy, poker may be fine. But you're not going to learn how to work with people or communicate by playing poker, and you're not developing any particular expertise even in the finance world.

I'd get a real job that ideally allows you to manage a team of people where you set the vision and are responsible for execution.

Good luck in the job hunt.
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Post by InvestingMom »

No way would I hire a poker player in a finance job. I might consider it if the person was reformed and it had been years ago, but i would wonder why they would then even include it on their resume. I don't know about the big banking firms, but I would have to think that they would not want to introduce their junior associate (or whatever they call them), former poker player, as someone who was going to manage the clients money. Surely they would not want this person trading on behalf of the company or working in the finance dept. You can also expect to never be considered as a CFO or controller of a public company....I guess the exception might be a casino?

Quit while you are ahead and don't even mention your "part time" job. Use the money you have earned to finish school.
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Post by SecretAsianMan »

Uh, maybe I'm just completely out of touch with most of America, but I think InvestingMom is way off-base here. You might hire a "reformed" poker player? Did I miss the part where the time machine whisked me back to the 1950s? The widespread and spectacular rise in popularity of poker in the past decade has, IMHO, wiped away any of the stigma it might have had in the past. In fact, sometimes it seems high-stakes poker games are as common as golf outings and weekends at the Hamptons among finance and lawyer types in NYC.

I think most people hiring for finance jobs (especially analyst, trading, and similar jobs prevalent in NYC) recognize the the similar analytical, risk management, bankroll management, and creative thinking skills that could make someone successful in both poker and finance. At the very least, the vast majority of people doing the hiring will find it interesting enough to give you the opportunity to explain its relevance. Even in the very staid world of law firms, my poker experience was an unqualified positive when interviewing with hiring partners. After talking with friends who are commodity traders and hedge fund analysts, the comparatively rough-and-tumble world of finance would certainly look at it the same way.

If you're going to stay in Nebraska, maybe things are different. But I think if NYC is your goal, highlighting your successful poker experience will help you stand out in a very difficult hiring market. As noted before, however, snagging a quality finance-related internship and networking will still be the most important factors in getting the job you want. Continuing to play poker at the expense of a good internship would be a mistake.

SAM
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Post by InvestingMom »

SecretAsianMan wrote:Uh, maybe I'm just completely out of touch with most of America, but I think InvestingMom is way off-base here. You might hire a "reformed" poker player? Did I miss the part where the time machine whisked me back to the 1950s? The widespread and spectacular rise in popularity of poker in the past decade has, IMHO, wiped away any of the stigma it might have had in the past. In fact, sometimes it seems high-stakes poker games are as common as golf outings and weekends at the Hamptons among finance and lawyer types in NYC.

I think most people hiring for finance jobs (especially analyst, trading, and similar jobs prevalent in NYC) recognize the the similar analytical, risk management, bankroll management, and creative thinking skills that could make someone successful in both poker and finance. At the very least, the vast majority of people doing the hiring will find it interesting enough to give you the opportunity to explain its relevance. Even in the very staid world of law firms, my poker experience was an unqualified positive when interviewing with hiring partners. After talking with friends who are commodity traders and hedge fund analysts, the comparatively rough-and-tumble world of finance would certainly look at it the same way.

If you're going to stay in Nebraska, maybe things are different. But I think if NYC is your goal, highlighting your successful poker experience will help you stand out in a very difficult hiring market. As noted before, however, snagging a quality finance-related internship and networking will still be the most important factors in getting the job you want. Continuing to play poker at the expense of a good internship would be a mistake.

SAM
Hi Sam,
Actually, I think you are way off base. I am aware of the rise in popularity in playing poker. I know at least 3 people who are in GA. I have a family member who lost 100% of his inheritance because of gambling. I am conservative with respect to finances and my expectations of people to do the right thing, but otherwise am quite liberal. I have no problem with people who want to gamble from a morale perspective, I just could not trust them with money (and would be very concerned about their future financial situation).

I have worked as a CFO and a controller on the West Coast, and I can guarantee you that neither I or anyone I have ever worked for or with would hire a gambler. I am not talking about playing poker for fun or as a hobby...I am talking about someone who gambles as "a living" and who would put it on their resume (It really makes me laugh to think of receiving a resume with that on their resume...I would be choking it would be so ridiculous to me.)

You have heard about Sarbanes Oxley right? You have heard about internal controls, right? I just would not trust someone who gambled to handle money. I would not as CFO put myself in a position where I could go to jail. I know this sounds dramatic, but I feel very strongly that anyone who gambles like this kid has a problem. It is only a matter of time until he will have lost all of the money he has earned and once he does this, my guess is that he will take riskier and riskier chances. Would I want to hire someone like this and chance that if he made a bad decision I might go to jail. The CFO and CEO have to certify the integrity of the financial statements (of a public company). I can just imagine informing the board of directors that I hired a previous gambler as the controller of the company. NO WAY. You can deny my feelings as out of touch or whatever, but I can guarantee you that there are a lot of controllers and CFOs that feel the same way I do...and this kid should know that.

You are right though that the Investment banking firms and Brokers might find good qualities in a gambler, which of course is why so many of them are gone now. But I think that maybe they will have changed their tune now and it would even be hard for them to inform their BODs or clients that they are hiring gamblers.

I am not saying that the kid cannot continue doing what he is doing on a part time basis, (well actually I am because I think he will lose it all), what I am really saying is that he should keep his hobby to himself and not disclose it. As I mentioned previously if I got a resume like this not only would I burst out laughing I would share it with the whole dept for a good laugh and I am sure even the A/P clerks would get it.
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Post by SecretAsianMan »

IM,

First, it's offensive and ignorant to compare a disciplined professional to someone in GA or an alcoholic or something similar. The OP has won an amount totaling in the six figures over hundreds of thousands or even millions of hands. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of basic statistics would know that the odds of this feat occurring due to luck and not skill is virtually zero. Thus, absent any evidence that his skill or discipline advantage has disappeared, there is no reason at all for your irrational belief that he will "lose it all" if he continues to play.

Second, the entire goal of a professional poker player is to maximize profits while eliminating the possibility of going bankrupt. The poker player tries to exploit his superior skills in one area where he or she has a competitive advantage - while also using a variety of analytical and risk management tools - to do this. How exactly is this any different than what a company, and more specifically, a finance department does? Many of my former colleagues in the poker world are much brighter and more disciplined than the vast majority of people with which I have studied and worked over the years. I wouldn't think summarily rejecting such talent due to irrational biases would be the best way for a company to attract the best workforce and maximize profits.

Third, getting back to the OP, he's not applying for a CFO position! If he gets to that point in the future, I hope he won't have part-time jobs he had in college on his resume. So, for someone in his situation, it doesn't matter what a CFO would do. As an entry-level graduate who is trying to compete with a mass of other people having the exact same type of internships on their thin resume, however, I think (and my very recent experience in the NYC job market shows) his successful experience playing poker can be an advantage (although, once again, I do think it is necessary for the OP to get a couple quality finance-related internships while in school).

SAM
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Re: Having a job in college = neccesary?

Post by bozo »

werd2u wrote:Hi everyone, I just finished reading the Boglehead Guide to Investing and likewise dropped by the forums. I have a question regarding finding a job when I'm finished with college, and I assume many people here would have personal experience that could help me out.

I'm a 19 year old college sophmore studying Finance at Nebraska. When I was 16, my uncle, a Senior Anaylst at a large investment firm, flew me down to New York and let me tour the JPMorgan and Bear Stearns trading floors. I fell in love with the city, and the enviornment, and ever since I've wanted to get a good job in Finance and move out to NYC.

That same year, I was working fulltime at a local restaurant, but soon discovered internet poker and became hooked. (Yes I played underage, but thats not the point) Gradually the hobby became more serious and I started to make more and more money. After making more than $100,000 my senior year of high school I descided to quit my job (8.50/hr) and play full time. Now I'm still making a decent amount of money playing an average of about 20-30 hours per week, I've completely paid for college, and have a six-figure portfolio. (none of this is really necessary, I'm just trying to explain completely why I don't work a regular part-time job)

I treat poker as a business, I keep accurate records, constantly game select, treating every game as an investment, and of course pay my taxes, but today someone made a thread in a poker forum I go to, talking about how poker ruined his resume. He is pretty much in the same boat as me, descided to not have a job since poker pays too much money, and now he thinks thats going to get him into trouble. I always thought poker might look good on a resume from an investment standpoint, am I wrong?

Is not having a part-time job going to hurt me when I go looking for a job in a couple years? What would you reccomend I do so I can look good on a resume? I'm really not into the idea of finding a part-time job making 8/hr at some restaurant, since I feel like it's just a waste of my time. Some say I could simply play poker and not worry about a job, but having an nice job in a big city has always been a dream, and I'd love to work on a trading floor and make poker a weekend hobby.

Thanks for reading all of that, I'm looking forward to your responses.
Good grief, you are a trading floor's perfect hire. Entrepreneur, risk-taker, great odds player, stare-em-down negotiator. Of course, your profile also melds exactly with that of a litigator (think Law School)(as a retired litigator for thirty plus years, I say that with some certainty). I would put champion poker-player at the TOP (tippy top) of any resume. Don't be ashamed, be proud. Poker is skill, not luck.

Bozo
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Post by Christine_NM »

Put poker on your resume to make sure you get a job in a corporate culture you can tolerate. It will turn some off because it's not verifiable except with your own records. Others will be turned off because whether winning or not, most adults find real life more challenging and meaningful than games.

My brother is a former gambler and it didn't do his career any good.
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werd2u
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Post by werd2u »

xx
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Post by cannedham »

I would not hire a poker player either. If someone is an entrepreneur, then they'd go work on their visionary idea. If someone is a finance whiz, then I'd want to hear about their trading strategies. If someone is an engineer, I'd want to see their code. If someone is a dancer, by god they will dance. If someone is a poker player -- what are they passionate about? What do they take seriously?

One aspect of poker players that seems to be fairly true, is none of them are particularly likable. It's a very "in it for yourself" kind of game. There's no teamwork (unless you're cheating). At the end of the day the game comes down to odds calculations and lying. The odds aren't nearly as interesting or complex as most other real world statistical problems. The rules are the same every hand. The cards range from the same values every hand. There's 52 cards in the deck. Nothing at all like any other aspect in life. Sure, it's a fun game. But it does not say anything kind about your character or your abilities if that's all you do, all day.

You're 19. Make sure you're developing life skills or at least trying to do something that few have tried. These life skills will generate far higher returns than poker can. You'll not only make more money in the long run, but you will very likely be a happier person too.
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Post by InvestingMom »

Werd2U,
One of your first questions was "
I always thought poker might look good on a resume from an investment standpoint, am I wrong?
I stand by my opinion, that it would not be a good idea to put gambling on your resume. Whether or not you believe my thinking is wrong, I am giving you my perspective as someone who has hired many people in my life. Also, it has been my experience that a team is involved in most hires and so it is very likely that someone on the hiring team will have the same feelings that I do. Why put yourself in a situation where you have to explain what may be perceived as a negative? Often times a hiring decision will come down to 2 candidates and if one person on the team is turned off, you have lost your shot. You have noted yourself that another person on a poker forum has indicated that poker ruined his resume. So perhaps you should listen to someone who has experienced it!

That all being said, I have no idea what it takes to get hired in an investment banking firm. Perhaps gambling would be looked at as a positive, but as others have noted, I think you should focus on the job profession you have chosen and try to do an internship or something more relevant to the job. I also wonder whether you are interested in the profession or just the bright lights?

As to your more general question as to whether not having a part-time job will hurt you (presumably this means in the situation where you don't note your gamgling as a part time job), I think it depends on too many things such as what are your grades like, what other activities are you involved in, etc. I don't think one should take a part time job in say a restaurant just to show job experience. Instead if I did not need the money, I would focus on my grades and other relevant activites. Do you have a career counselor at your college that can help you answer that question. What about your Uncle? He seems like the best person to ask (as well as the question about putting gambling on your resume.)

Edited to add (sorry I could not help it)

SAM,
All of the people that I have noted who are in GA thought that they were disciplined and professional. (in fact the profession...ie casinos and the like make people feel like they are really special and "professional"...treat them to special rooms, drinks, dinners, etc...that is their expertise.) Unfortunately some people cannot control their gambling or their drinking. It should not be considered offensive to mention this as a concern.
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Post by simplesimon »

werd2u, I understand where you're coming from. Realize that different kinds of people are going to be reading that resume. Some will like it, others won't. Don't dismiss what some people are saying just because it is not what you want to hear.

As for my own opinion, put it on the resume. You have lots of experience in poker and in an interview, you should be able to answer any question regarding your choices because it is something you're very comfortable with. You're so young. In my opinion, if a hiring manager can't appreciate how different and unique your resume is, you probably would not like to work with him or her even if you were hired.

As for part time work, do it. Find internships over the summer related to finance in your area (or not, you have enough money to support a 3-month move). It would just be like school except now you'll be playing poker (if you still choose to do so) around a work schedule. Not only will the internships provide experience, it will provide network connections. This is critical in business.

Good luck in whatever you do.
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