$4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

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TomatoTomahto
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$4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

We need to redo our wills. They are slightly complicated in that W wants to, on the off-chance that I outlive her, provide a comfortable life for me and then the remainder to her two children. I in turn want to give everything to my 4 kids (including the same two as my wife has).

We are over the federal lifetime exclusion and way over the NJ exclusion ($625k, then 16%! tax).

His retainer states a max of 10 hours at $450 per for two wills, POAs, I guess a QTIP or two, etc. Photocopying is additional.

This is in Northern NJ. He is well-recommended by other attorneys. Is this reasonable?
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livesoft
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by livesoft »

For something a little less complicated, we paid $600 times 2 = $1200 in Texas.

It is also hard to check a lawyer's work. I asked our lawyer if he could provide a reference where his docs were used, that is, a name of heirs of a recently deceased client of his. He said, "No, out of respect for privacy." I had to laugh at that.
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Wannaretireearly
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

Do you have an employer legal plan option. E.g. Hyatt?
You'll save thousands. Did our first estate plan, trust, wills, health care directives etc 5 years ago. Now doing the whole thing again thru Hyatt to revise and update.

Total cost: $200 for the annual plan at open enrollment, selected only for the years when needed.

Remember, all these plans do need a review every 5-10 years or when situations change.
Good luck.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Thanks, Wannaretireearly, as luck would have it, my wife is starting a new job Monday and can sign up for a group legal thing. Great idea!

I feel a little guilty, since we sat with him for an hour for free, but I guess that's built into his $450/hour.

Livesoft, if he gave you the reference, would you have asked the executor how smoothly the will worked? Adding a surcharge for NJ and another bump for complexity, I don't think ours should cost almost 4x what yours did.
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livesoft
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by livesoft »

TomatoTomahto wrote:Livesoft, if he gave you the reference, would you have asked the executor how smoothly the will worked?
Yes, I would have no problem talking to relatives, as in, "I'm considering using Mr Lawyer for estate planning purposes. He said your dad was a former client of his, so my condolences, but were there any problems or issues the documents he prepared for your dad?"
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

livesoft wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:Livesoft, if he gave you the reference, would you have asked the executor how smoothly the will worked?
Yes, I would have no problem talking to relatives, as in, "I'm considering using Mr Lawyer for estate planning purposes. He said your dad was a former client of his, so my condolences, but were there any problems or issues the documents he prepared for your dad?"
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Eric »

Second marriage, kids from both marriages, estate large enough to require tax planning?$4500 is reasonable.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Eric wrote:Second marriage, kids from both marriages, estate large enough to require tax planning?$4500 is reasonable.
Eric, do you think that the lawyers in an employer's legal group plan could do a good job? I'm sure that some extra time is required given the tax planning, blended family, etc., but I wonder if I need a $450/hour guy with publications (some textbooks, magazine articles, etc).
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by livesoft »

I think the lawyer should have seen this situation many times before and most of the docs will be pretty boiler-plate.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by kenner »

livesoft wrote:I think the lawyer should have seen this situation many times before ...

What is your evidence and proof for your statement?

The Original Poster indicated that this legal situation is complicated, perhaps even unusual.

Maybe you can solve all possible legal cosequences at a lower cost. If that's what you think, then just post the relevant legal documents you recommend. Simple. Quick. Easy.


and most of the docs will be pretty boiler-plate.
(And funny cartoon, too!)
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

kenner wrote:
livesoft wrote:I think the lawyer should have seen this situation many times before ...

What is your evidence and proof for your statement?

The Original Poster indicated that this legal situation is complicated, perhaps even unusual.

Maybe you can solve all possible legal cosequences at a lower cost. If that's what you think, then just post the relevant legal documents you recommend. Simple. Quick. Easy.


and most of the docs will be pretty boiler-plate.
(And funny cartoon, too!)
IANAL, but I don't think our blended family is unusual. We're a bit unusual in that the $ was mostly generated by the wife rather than the husband, but I don't think that matters in a legal sense. I guess it matters in that the "lower assets" partner has the greater number of heirs. Half of the tax complications would evaporate if we left NJ for a more tax-friendly state.

To me, the question is whether a standard lawyer (ie not an authority or lecturer in the field) can handle this.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by kenner »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
kenner wrote:
livesoft wrote:I think the lawyer should have seen this situation many times before ...

What is your evidence and proof for your statement?

The Original Poster indicated that this legal situation is complicated, perhaps even unusual.

Maybe you can solve all possible legal cosequences at a lower cost. If that's what you think, then just post the relevant legal documents you recommend. Simple. Quick. Easy.


and most of the docs will be pretty boiler-plate.
(And funny cartoon, too!)
IANAL, but I don't think our blended family is unusual. We're a bit unusual in that the $ was mostly generated by the wife rather than the husband, but I don't think that matters in a legal sense. I guess it matters in that the "lower assets" partner has the greater number of heirs. Half of the tax complications would evaporate if we left NJ for a more tax-friendly state.

To me, the question is whether a standard lawyer (ie not an authority or lecturer in the field) can handle this.
I have no reason to believe your family is unusual. But your original post stated that re-doing your will would be complicated. That is the issue I addressed. That's what lawyers do. They address the issues people express.

Perhaps a standard lawyer would suffice for you.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Eric »

TomatoTomahto wrote:Eric, do you think that the lawyers in an employer's legal group plan could do a good job?
My wife (who is also an estate planning attorney) was approached by one of these plans early in her career. The plan offered to pay her only $75 for each will she prepared on behalf of one of its members. That was in the '90s but even then wasn't remotely close to the market rate. When asked, the plan sponsor explained that participating attorneys did wills as a loss-leader for other, more profitable, work. I'm biased, of course, but I don't think I'd want a will prepared on that basis.

It's possible that these plans are better-structured now. I'm skeptical, though. I assume that essentially everyone who signs up for a plan like this intends to use it, and the easiest way to use it is to get a will. If the plan charges consumers only $200 (as another poster indicated), how can it afford to pay the lawyer anything plausible? TANSTAAFL.
livesoft wrote:I think the lawyer should have seen this situation many times before and most of the docs will be pretty boiler-plate.
I've seen it many times before and it is rarely boilerplate. Planning for blended families is complicated, particularly if you represent both spouses and are trying to prepare an integrated estate plan.
Last edited by Eric on Mon May 25, 2015 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

kenner wrote: I have no reason to believe your family is unusual. But your original post stated that re-doing your will would be complicated. That is the issue I addressed. That's what lawyers do. They address the issues people express.

Perhaps a standard lawyer would suffice for you.
I did say that it might be slightly complicated. As a complete amateur, I think a QTIP or some similar trust will come in handy. I would just rather get it done for $1000-2000 than $4500+ if the results will be comparable, especially since this is likely to be a recurring expense over the years.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by THY4373 »

If you are thinking of signing up for an employer plan for wills I suggest you read what it covers very carefully. My employer's plan appeared to include wills until you read the fine details (which were somewhat hidden on the providers web page). Basically for wills you were on the hook for doing your own using their software/website and all they covered were phone calls to lawyers in the plan to assist you with any questions you had in the self-preparation of the will. Totally not worth signing up for that (in my opinion anyway).
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by livesoft »

Let's just say this: Would you want to use a lawyer who had never seen a similar situation before? Or would you want to use a lawyer who had seen similar situations many times before?
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by kenner »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
kenner wrote: I have no reason to believe your family is unusual. But your original post stated that re-doing your will would be complicated. That is the issue I addressed. That's what lawyers do. They address the issues people express.

Perhaps a standard lawyer would suffice for you.
I did say that it might be slightly complicated. As a complete amateur, I think a QTIP or some similar trust will come in handy. I would just rather get it done for $1000-2000 than $4500+ if the results will be comparable, especially since this is likely to be a recurring expense over the years.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

The Megacorp Legal Services Plan offers you and your family access to an affordable network of attorneys for routine legal services related to personal and family legal issues, such as wills and estate planning; real estate matters; family law; juvenile matters; name changes; consumer protection; property protection; traffic matters; issues of incompetence, insanity and infirmity defense; and more.

Most services are covered at 100% when you use network attorneys. A reimbursement schedule applies to fees charged by out-of-network attorneys.
[snip...]
About Participation in the Group Legal Services Plan
• When You Can Enroll: You may only enroll in this benefit as a new employee or during Annual Benefits Enrollment. You may not enroll due to a qualified status change.
• Pre-Existing Legal Matters: Any legal matter for which an attorney-client relationship existed prior to you becoming eligible for services under the Megacorp Legal Services Plan will be excluded, and no benefits will apply.
• Network Attorneys: The Megacorp Group Legal Services Plan offers access to a network of U.S. attorneys who provide a wide range of legal services.
I guess I should look at the out-of-network reimbursement schedule.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by SDBoggled »

We paid about this, no blended family. Although a DIYer, I opted for specialist estate attorney rather than NOLO or Corporate generalist as I figured I did not know what I didn't know. They answered all my questions and I hope they will still be a good resource for my family as many critical tax planning decisions cannot be answered until conditions (assets, laws) are known at time of death.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Nowizard »

We live in Tennessee, a lower cost state, but our will, POA, and Trust was $1,500. It was not complicated, no blended family. Codicils can be added for $350. This included two complete copies in attractive folders and was done by an attorney who specializes in this area. I suspect it is higher now since his was about 7 years ago.

Tim
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Nowizard »

Duplicate post.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Matahari »

This is a very wise statement:
Although a DIYer, I opted for specialist estate attorney rather than NOLO or Corporate generalist as I figured I did not know what I didn't know. They answered all my questions and I hope they will still be a good resource for my family as many critical tax planning decisions cannot be answered until conditions (assets, laws) are known at time of death.
Assuming there are no thorny property and family issues, estate planning is largely tax driven for someone who is close to or over the Federal and state exclusions. Keeping up with tax law changes will require ongoing upkeep, even if it is just a periodic phone call with the attorney to make sure that nothing needs to be changed, for now. Continuity of service and ongoing confidence in the expert's advice would be worth paying for.

It's possible you'd get this with an employer-subsidized plan, but those are typically for people with more routine legal needs. If I were worried about saving estate taxes on a multimillion-dollar-sized taxable estate, $4500 sounds like a relative bargain by comparison. I would suggest asking the attorney whether $4500 is just the tip of the iceberg or is the fee for the complete set of documents that address your circumstances. Client questions and revisions may eat up the 10-hour budget. Billing increments are also important -- some attorneys bill in 0.1 hourly increments, some in 0.25 hourly increments.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by welldone »

I can't speak to whether your situation necessitates legal work totaling $4500 but I can tell you as someone whose spouse is a "big law" attorney of almost 20 years, that in my experience - in order for a good estate/trust lawyer to have boilerplate documents they can use to tailor to each clients personal needs - they need to have worked on a ton of matters similar to the one under discussion. And, that $450 an hour isn't a "big law" price except when discussing lower level year attorney bill-out rates.

I know that many of my spouse's clients believe that their particular question should be able to be answered for practically free. However, what might seem to be an easy answer for a lay person may very well touch on lots of arcane legal ramifications specific only to a very few people.

With an estate well over $5 million, I would think that $4500 might very well be an acceptable price to ensure legal documents were done thoroughly and completely (think of it as an expense ratio to the assets under discussion). I hear an expression a lot from friends and relatives in the legal field, "Fast, cheap or good. You can only pick two."

The more important question to me is whether you have faith in this lawyer. Did they come from a great reference? Did you get a good vibe when meeting them? Did they understand the issues you brought up and have good questions that helped you understand your wishes better after meeting with them? Did you learn anything new that was helpful in your initial meeting?

Only you can decide whether this lawyer's expertise is worth $450 an hour to you. And from what you wrote - it seems like 10 hours at $450 is the maximum retainer asked for at the beginning of the work - not necessarily the maximum you would pay. If the lawyer spends more than 10 hours of your work - I would expect you would be paying for those additional hours. If I was mistaken on what you explained, please disregard - but a retainer is just a starting fee usually - not the cap.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by bayview »

TomatoTomahto wrote:We need to redo our wills. They are slightly complicated in that W wants to, on the off-chance that I outlive her, provide a comfortable life for me and then the remainder to her two children. I in turn want to give everything to my 4 kids (including the same two as my wife has)...
Hope you don't mind me asking, but separate from all the fee issues, etc., how are you and your wife going about thinking through the whole who-gets-what issue? We remarried after our respective children were grown, he with 2 and me with 3 kids, and I honestly don't know what's fair/ right/ sensible/ you name it in these circumstances. To add a twist, there's a good chance that there will be inheritance money from each side, which should be? maybe? proportioned to the respective grandchildren.

:confused
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by samsmith »

Two wills, plus QTIPS, plus POA does not sound that bad for $4500. As others have stated, I would try to nail down is this the retainer, or the flat/max rate? I have used higher priced attorneys, but I am always uncomfortable with an open ended billing arrangement. I tr to get them to tell me the flat rate -assuming a " normal" amount of questions from me. That has worked, and somehow the total billable hours times the hourly rate has equaled the quote flat rate.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by mw1739 »

I looked into using my company's group plan (MetLife) for estate planning. The local participating lawyers seemed to be ambulance chaser type attorneys. I used the out of network reimbursement, which got me I think $450 back. I forget the exact fee schedule, but you got $xxx back for wills, living will, POA etc. Trusts weren't covered. I felt much more comfortable using our attorney vs. the group legal plan attorneys.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

bayview wrote:Hope you don't mind me asking, but separate from all the fee issues, etc., how are you and your wife going about thinking through the whole who-gets-what issue?
IMO, it gets complicated if I let it. My wife has considerably more assets than my ex has. There was a time when I thought I should equalize that as much as I could, and then different kids have better "prospects" in life, and one or the other would benefit from a boost more than another, etc. I decided to go back to my original, simple, plan. I love them all equally and they will each get 1/4 of what I have left. None of them have widely divergent needs that are not their own choice.

My sister and I modified, by voluntarily giving portions of our inheritance to a "shut out" sibling, my step-mother's will to more closely reflect my father's wishes (he died much earlier). One sister did not participate, to nobody's surprise. My kids are, as far as I know, not going to behave poorly when money is involved. That said, the amounts will be higher, and perhaps that is more of an incentive to be callous; in my case, after all was said and done, I inherited $11k :moneybag

We have a prenup to deal with assets brought into our marriage in the event of a divorce, but since I've been a SAHD and thus haven't earned a paycheck in more than a decade, we have to figure out how to equitably divide the additions to our assets (which will affect the inheritance ratios between the kids). Not a legal issue as much as it is a philosophical issue (behind many successful women is a helpful partner; what is that worth?).
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by bsteiner »

From my experience practicing in New Jersey (my office is in NYC but I live in NJ and practice actively in both states as well as FL), the $4,500 figure seems reasonable, though I would have expected a higher hourly rate and fewer hours. Even though I think it would probably take less than 10 hours, I wouldn't have expected the lawyer to cap the time at 10 hours, since the amount of time can vary depending on the efficiency of the client's decision making.

The drafting is fairly straightforward. H is leaving his estate to his children in separate trusts for their benefit. W is leaving her estate in the usual marital and credit shelter (bypass trusts), with remainder to her children in separate trusts for their benefit. Since they're over the Federal estate tax exempt amount, the planning would be geared to the Federal rather than the state estate tax.

The issues to make sure the lawyer spots and deals with include:

1. Given the amount involved, it's important to make sure that the children inherit in separate trusts for their benefit rather than outright, so as to keep their inheritances out of their estates, and to protect against their creditors and spouses.

2. W should give careful consideration as to who she wants as the trustees of the marital and credit shelter trusts.

3. What would happen if the surviving spouse (regardless of whether it's H or W) claims an elective share?

4. Are there any retirement benefits? If so, will the trusts for the children that receive the retirement benefits contain the necessary provisions so that the retirement benefits can be stretched out over the children's life expectancies, or at least over the oldest child's life expectancy?
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Theoretical »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
bayview wrote:Hope you don't mind me asking, but separate from all the fee issues, etc., how are you and your wife going about thinking through the whole who-gets-what issue?
My kids are, as far as I know, not going to behave poorly when money is involved. That said, the amounts will be higher, and perhaps that is more of an incentive to be callous; in my case, after all was said and done, I inherited $11k :moneybag
I'll ditto everything bsteiner just said, and will add one more caution. Money can really complicate family relations, including where they were cordial or even friendly before death.

You've avoided one of the major tension points already by planning to split your estate among your children and not including your wife. The marital trust structure works well for your wife giving to you since you have joint children and they are the natural remainder beneficiaries.

$4500 seems reasonable. There's a major estate planning attorney in the DFW area who publishes his rates in a similar fashion (hours+rate). I think it's simply quantifying his/her level of experience and explicitly stating what every attorney implicitly does when they quote a fee, whether it is a flat fee or hourly rate.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by AZAttorney11 »

Wannaretireearly wrote:Do you have an employer legal plan option. E.g. Hyatt?
You'll save thousands. Did our first estate plan, trust, wills, health care directives etc 5 years ago. Now doing the whole thing again thru Hyatt to revise and update.

Total cost: $200 for the annual plan at open enrollment, selected only for the years when needed.

Remember, all these plans do need a review every 5-10 years or when situations change.
Good luck.
I would never participate in an employer provided legal plan, such as Hyatt, as an attorney in private practice. I don't know a single attorney that I would consider "good" or better than participates in one of those group legal plan.

I have, however, dealt with two different attorneys in two separate matters that participated in a group legal plan. The outcome was not favorable to their client in either circumstance.

Quality attorneys don't need to participate in a group legal plan because they have enough clients paying their standard hourly rate, or institutional clients that provide a lot of work on a regular basis in exchange for a discounted rate. Be very careful using an attorney as part of a group legal plan. You're likely to get an attorney that is inexperienced, doesn't specialize, or can't generate enough work on his or her own. None of which are good signs for the client. Unlike medical insurance where almost every doctor participates, legal insurance only involves a certain segment of the attorney population.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by AZAttorney11 »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Eric wrote:Second marriage, kids from both marriages, estate large enough to require tax planning?$4500 is reasonable.
Eric, do you think that the lawyers in an employer's legal group plan could do a good job? I'm sure that some extra time is required given the tax planning, blended family, etc., but I wonder if I need a $450/hour guy with publications (some textbooks, magazine articles, etc).
Given your estate size, potential complexity, and severe negative consequences for your children if the documents are not properly drafted, I think you are being penny wise and pound foolish. I've never understood the reluctance of some to pay for quality legal advice, particularly when they can afford it and their situation requires it.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I was just reading through the thread before going to bed, and realize that I misstated our assets. I assume it has no effect on legal fees, but my wife's assets exceed the single lifetime exclusion, but we as a couple are below the Federal limit. At her current and anticipated comp, and our savings rate, we will exceed the Federal limit in 2-4 years.
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Theoretical
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Theoretical »

AZAttorney11 wrote:
Wannaretireearly wrote:Do you have an employer legal plan option. E.g. Hyatt?
You'll save thousands. Did our first estate plan, trust, wills, health care directives etc 5 years ago. Now doing the whole thing again thru Hyatt to revise and update.

Total cost: $200 for the annual plan at open enrollment, selected only for the years when needed.

Remember, all these plans do need a review every 5-10 years or when situations change.
Good luck.
I would never participate in an employer provided legal plan, such as Hyatt, as an attorney in private practice. I don't know a single attorney that I would consider "good" or better than participates in one of those group legal plan.

I have, however, dealt with two different attorneys in two separate matters that participated in a group legal plan. The outcome was not favorable to their client in either circumstance.

Quality attorneys don't need to participate in a group legal plan because they have enough clients paying their standard hourly rate, or institutional clients that provide a lot of work on a regular basis in exchange for a discounted rate. Be very careful using an attorney as part of a group legal plan. You're likely to get an attorney that is inexperienced, doesn't specialize, or can't generate enough work on his or her own. None of which are good signs for the client. Unlike medical insurance where almost every doctor participates, legal insurance only involves a certain segment of the attorney population.
I've worked at a firm that was on such a legal plan, and we were the only quality provider in town for estate planning, in that we actually gave individualized attention and addressed clients' needs far beyond what the plan officially covered. In other words, we were more than a document mill. Even when we successfully got extra fee petitions, the amounts were pitiful and the corresponding client complexity astronomical. My boss and I provided such good service to plan members, that they referred all of their coworkers to us, who all had complex issues! We became the premier law firm in the plan, bar none, and the sheer volume burned the whole firm out, while clogging up the schedule for clients who actually kept the lights on.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Pacific »

I was going to advise waiting to see if Bruce Steiner weighed in. I see that he did. I would follow bsteiner's advice. He is like the old EF Hutton ads.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by Jerry55 »

I'm no expert, but I use Quicken Will maker and NOLO Trust Maker.

I keep my assets like TSP, Mutual Funds etc OUT of it, and make adjustments in my Beneficiaries or POD (Payable on Death) into their data, so I can change Beneficiaries without making any adjustments to my Will. I put copies of those statements with my will, and update if I change beneficiaries or POD data, so those will never have to go thru probate, and immediately transfer to my designee.

I've taken them to an attorney, and he said they're as good as gold and to continue in this fashion.
He said, "Jerry, it's not rocket science, just make sure you have 2 people initial and or sign each page as required." But, I'm single and have just over 7 figures including home.

Ultimately, it's a personal choice. BTW....

I graduated from Trenton Central High on June 21, and left Trenton on June 26. Forever.
Personally, I'd never move back to Jersey. PA ? Maybe. Old saying ? N.J. is a good place to be "FROM"

Can't get Scrapple or Pork Roll here in Chicago. :annoyed
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nisiprius
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by nisiprius »

Divide the question into two. 1) Is $450/hour a reasonable hourly rate? 2) Is 10 hours the amount of time it is likely to take?

My answers: 1) Yeah, it probably is if it's a senior person and the work is going to require a fair amount of personal attention--he is really going to be sitting down and thinking about what words to write, rather than sticking in a paragraph of boilerplate into a document of boilerplate. I'm having some legal work done by a lawyer in New York and (to my horror) he bills $500/hour himself and $200/hour for his paralegal.

I mean, I don't know if $450/hour is the right number, but it's more than $200/hour and it's less than $1,000/hour.

2) Ten hours is just a bit more than a day. It's sort of hard to visualize what a professional does, but if it's "slightly complicated" and involves wills AND "some trusts," that doesn't sound outlandish. I'm wondering if you are talking about a total of five documents and whether he is estimating two hours for each.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Jerry55, that approach works if there aren't coordination issues between the two wills (eg, who is deemed to have died first if we are in a fatal car accident), trusts to be funded, trusts to have in place while living, executors and trustees who will be making high-stakes decisions about distributions (eg, would we be okay funding a tattoo parlor franchise?), etc.

My question, as Nisiprius sussed, isn't whether $4500 is wrong and $20 is right. Our old wills cost us $1800 around a decade ago, when things were more complicated because the younger children needed guardians, but simpler because the tax issues were smaller (or were easier to ignore :oops: ).

Tbh, I'm good to go at $4500 because I believe that
a) $450/hour is a reasonable hourly rate
b) even if a good bit of the final product is boilerplate, it takes some time to join up the pieces, know precisely which boilerplate to select from the menu, etc., so 10 hours does not seem high

Surprisingly, it is my wife who is reluctant to pull the trigger and sign the retainer. That is not characteristic of her, so I'm here asking.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Jerry55 wrote:I graduated from Trenton Central High on June 21, and left Trenton on June 26. Forever.
Personally, I'd never move back to Jersey. PA ? Maybe. Old saying ? N.J. is a good place to be "FROM"
I left NJ in '68, sure that I would never come back. I returned in '83, and haven't yet been able to engineer an evacuation.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: $4500 reasonable for wills for blended family and some trusts?

Post by bayview »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
bayview wrote:Hope you don't mind me asking, but separate from all the fee issues, etc., how are you and your wife going about thinking through the whole who-gets-what issue?
IMO, it gets complicated if I let it. My wife has considerably more assets than my ex has. There was a time when I thought I should equalize that as much as I could, and then different kids have better "prospects" in life, and one or the other would benefit from a boost more than another, etc. I decided to go back to my original, simple, plan. I love them all equally and they will each get 1/4 of what I have left. None of them have widely divergent needs that are not their own choice.

My sister and I modified, by voluntarily giving portions of our inheritance to a "shut out" sibling, my step-mother's will to more closely reflect my father's wishes (he died much earlier). One sister did not participate, to nobody's surprise. My kids are, as far as I know, not going to behave poorly when money is involved. That said, the amounts will be higher, and perhaps that is more of an incentive to be callous; in my case, after all was said and done, I inherited $11k :moneybag

We have a prenup to deal with assets brought into our marriage in the event of a divorce, but since I've been a SAHD and thus haven't earned a paycheck in more than a decade, we have to figure out how to equitably divide the additions to our assets (which will affect the inheritance ratios between the kids). Not a legal issue as much as it is a philosophical issue (behind many successful women is a helpful partner; what is that worth?).
It's worth a ton, IMO. I was the helpful partner behind husband #1, and now husband #2 (massive upgrade for me :D) is my helpful partner. Having someone to run the "family business" (= taking care of family stuff, and especially children) is as undervalued as it is valuable.

Thanks for sharing your kid situation. As I mentioned, ours is simpler in that they were adults when we married, and we were a little more balanced in what we brought to the marriage and have earned since. And we aren't anywhere near the $$$ as you guys, so a lot less weirdness, I suppose. With any luck at all, the two sets of grandparents will provide for their respective grandchildren in their own wills/trusts, and so we'll only have to find the spot that feels fair on our own marital assets.
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri
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