Am I part of the problem??

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Tim W

Am I part of the problem??

Post by Tim W »

Good morning everyone,

I've been lurking these forums and Bogleheads in general for a little over a year now. With multiples degrees in financial disciplines, I never considered myself uneducated when it came to personal finance. BOY WAS I WRONG! I'm so thankful for the advice I've read around here (even with all of the different opinions), and my family is in a much better financial situation because of it. We're not rich by any means, but now we at least have a plan and strategies to get there!

As my title indicates, though, I'm having a struggle. I work in the investment world, Wall St if you will, for a successful asset management company. We have actively managed strategies across the board: equities and alternatives.On a personal level, my co-workers are awesome and I'm proud to call some of them friends. I bring home a very comfortable (six-figure) salary with great benefits in a relatively normal COL area. My wife is able to stay home with our children, and although we don't live lavishly we also don't want for anything. However, my struggle is that my company charges pretty high management fees (>1% for mostly institutional investors and HNW people), and I would honestly never consider owning our funds. I mean, our 401(k) plan THANKFULLY offers a wide array of low-fee Vanguard choices; but even if it didn't I'd never consider owning our funds. I wouldn't even recommend my family or friends to invest here!

Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

I would not be in such a hurry to give up your day job. There are hypocrites, and then there are "real hypocrites". I think you fall in the former and not the latter category. I suppose if you provide real tangible measurable benefits to your ultimate clients then you can justify the price charged. It's the characters who are unable to justify it - think wirehouse brokers, whole life and variable annuity insurance agents, active managers who consistently underperform their benchmarks and competitors. The NYC pension funds and comptrollers office just released a 10 year analysis of how they paid out over $2 billion in fees and lost an additional $2.5 billion in potential gains by using a variety of asset managers who were supposed to provide those real tangible results. Instead, they significantly detracted.
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harrychan
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by harrychan »

I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Your 401k offerings is similar to what I have. I choose an array of funds including Vangaurd and other higher management fee funds. I work in a large global IT firm.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by rob »

Tim W wrote:Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
Yeah, I have also seen that thought in the mirror more than once (I'm not a wall street type but help target HNW "customers" in various ways for financial companies). My rationalization is that the people my professional self goes after are never going to use a Boglehead plan anyway but I expect some subset probably would with more knowledge and less sales pressure. I certainly don't own most of the products that are sold and never will since the wolf in them is clear to me :shock:
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by flyingbison »

Tim W wrote: Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet?
Do you really want honest opinions about this? :|
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by VictoriaF »

Tim W wrote:Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet?
Work a bit longer and then write a book about the suckers and those who suck them dry. Something like Michael Lewis's Liar's Poker.

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Buysider
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Buysider »

My name says it.

Hypocrite? Depends how you look at yourself. I am a fan of consenting adults having a lot of latitude on how they invest and spend their money. You are not a hypocrite for serving people who want what your company provides. If anything, by being aware of this board, you may be more valuable to your employer as the direction of this industry is clear - costs matter and in a low return environment, high cost investment products will not have a future.

I've found working in this industry, you learn some things: most people don't have much money and some people have too much money. Thankfully this industry targets the latter far more painfully and aggressively than the former.
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Bogle101
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Bogle101 »

I wouldn't worry about it. Some people on the board are a little overzealous about indexing and the "evil" that is active financial advice. It's either the total Boglehead way or the highway. Read some of the posts about tipping, coupons, etc. It's rather extreme. Nothing in life is ever black and white like that.

Some people want to pay a little extra for hand holding and the bells and whistles of an active firm.

Plus you leaving the firm isn't going to make a real difference to the firm and clients and will only harm your financial security.
Last edited by Bogle101 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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JDCarpenter
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by JDCarpenter »

Tim W wrote:
Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
Methinks you are far from alone, and it isn't limited to your profession. If I had to guess, there are a large number in my line of work who think the legal system is a stinking abyss, but still serve those clients who choose to litigate. I'm one. Nonetheless, "baby needs new shoes." :greedy
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by midareff »

"However, my struggle is that my company charges pretty high management fees (>1% for mostly institutional investors and HNW people)"

Only you can decide if the management they receive is worth the fees they pay.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by rustymutt »

I think that's for you decide and nobody elses business. I find it strange that you'd ask such a question.
Even educators need education. And some can be hard headed to the point of needing time out.
MathWizard
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by MathWizard »

I wouldn't lose sleep over it, at least over those who roll up in a chauffeured limo, and who hire maids
gardners, etc. These are people who want to hire a professionals to manage things (for a fee)
while they go about earning even more money than they could make doing your job. Think comparative
advantage, ala Adam Smith.

For me, managing money is worth a lot of my time, so I am willing to do it, but I also work on my house,
cut my own lawn, ...
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by wfrobinette »

Tim W wrote:Good morning everyone,

I've been lurking these forums and Bogleheads in general for a little over a year now. With multiples degrees in financial disciplines, I never considered myself uneducated when it came to personal finance. BOY WAS I WRONG! I'm so thankful for the advice I've read around here (even with all of the different opinions), and my family is in a much better financial situation because of it. We're not rich by any means, but now we at least have a plan and strategies to get there!

As my title indicates, though, I'm having a struggle. I work in the investment world, Wall St if you will, for a successful asset management company. We have actively managed strategies across the board: equities and alternatives.On a personal level, my co-workers are awesome and I'm proud to call some of them friends. I bring home a very comfortable (six-figure) salary with great benefits in a relatively normal COL area. My wife is able to stay home with our children, and although we don't live lavishly we also don't want for anything. However, my struggle is that my company charges pretty high management fees (>1% for mostly institutional investors and HNW people), and I would honestly never consider owning our funds. I mean, our 401(k) plan THANKFULLY offers a wide array of low-fee Vanguard choices; but even if it didn't I'd never consider owning our funds. I wouldn't even recommend my family or friends to invest here!

Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
Everyone one of us that work in the corporate world are trying to squeeze as much money as we can from our customers. Frankly, if everyone lived the Boglehead and to some extent the millionaire next door life our economy/investments would not perform very well at all.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by ddurrett896 »

Tim W wrote: Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
Think about it like this - your company and position isn't going anywhere, someone HAS to do it and if your doing fine then forget about it.

You understand the difference between the fees but 99% of the world doesn't and at the end of the day they feel "safer" having someone like you on their side. I try to tell my parents why the should leave American Funds and their financial adviser and move to Vanguard and guess what they do...nothing!
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by mhc »

Tim,

if you want to keep your job, I wouldn't post such things on the internet.
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PVW
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by PVW »

Are you providing a service to your clients that they are unable or unwilling to do for themselves? Do you make decisions for your clients that are exclusively in their best interest? You and your firm may not be Bogleheads, but that doesn't make you a bad or dishonest person.

On the other hand, if you look around and see a lot of hard selling, dishonesty, and financial moves designed to make your firm money, then you might be one of the detestable financial advisers that is often skewered on this site.
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BL
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by BL »

PVW wrote:Are you providing a service to your clients that they are unable or unwilling to do for themselves? Do you make decisions for your clients that are exclusively in their best interest? You and your firm may not be Bogleheads, but that doesn't make you a bad or dishonest person.

On the other hand, if you look around and see a lot of hard selling, dishonesty, and financial moves designed to make your firm money, then you might be one of the detestable financial advisers that is often skewered on this site.
It does sound to me like you may be developing a conscience and soon won't comfortably be able to continue. Maybe look around to see if your skills would be valuable elsewhere where your values won't be challenged every day and you could operate as a fiduciary instead.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by ShiftF5 »

rustymutt wrote:I think that's for you decide and nobody elses business. I find it strange that you'd ask such a question.
I think the fact it bothers you speaks to your character.

I'd listen to that voice and just start quietly exploring other ways you might use your expertise more in line with your beliefs.

Rick Ferri's story is a good place to start.

Best wishes.
Last edited by ShiftF5 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by TheRightKost87 »

mhc wrote:Tim,

if you want to keep your job, I wouldn't post such things on the internet.
What is every financial firm in the country gonna read this board, scour their rosters for every "Tim W" employee, and then interrogate them until they figure out if the person who posted this is one of theirs?

Doesn't seem to me like he's really putting himself at risk here. Didn't really bash the firm at all (just pointed out their fee structure), and didn't include too many personal details (all we know his name may include "Tim W" that he may work in a financial firm and that he may make six figures - and thats if everything he wrote is true!)
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by ShiftF5 »

mhc wrote:Tim,

if you want to keep your job, I wouldn't post such things on the internet.
That is sage advice.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by VictoriaF »

TheRightKost87 wrote:
mhc wrote:Tim,

if you want to keep your job, I wouldn't post such things on the internet.
What is every financial firm in the country gonna read this board, scour their rosters for every "Tim W" employee, and then interrogate them until they figure out if the person who posted this is one of theirs?

Doesn't seem to me like he's really putting himself at risk here. Didn't really bash the firm at all (just pointed out their fee structure), and didn't include too many personal details (all we know his name may include "Tim W" that he may work in a financial firm and that he may make six figures - and thats if everything he wrote is true!)
If Tim W continues posting, some of his personal details will emerge. While it's difficult to identify a writer based on his writing style alone, it's easier to authenticate a writer using his writing samples if it's known that his name is Tim W and he works in the financial industry.

Victoria
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by toto238 »

I am a big believer in free markets. Tim W is working at a company that charges high fees, yes. But investors are becoming more and more aware of those fees and assets are being pushed into lower-cost passive investments. By staying with this company, Tim W is taking the risk of staying on a sinking ship. Eventually, companies that aren't providing value ot their clients will either go out of business or get "re-arranged" in some sort.

Tim W isn't doing anything wrong in my opinion. But he is taking a risk. As the market moves towards lower-cost investments, his position may become obselete. He may be better off moving to a company like Vanguard that may not pay him as much but is much less likely to lay him off in the near future.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by FelixTheCat »

The people investing in the funds at your work invest according to their plan. You have a different plan so invest according to your style.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by GoldenFinch »

VictoriaF wrote:
TheRightKost87 wrote:
mhc wrote:Tim,

if you want to keep your job, I wouldn't post such things on the internet.
What is every financial firm in the country gonna read this board, scour their rosters for every "Tim W" employee, and then interrogate them until they figure out if the person who posted this is one of theirs?

Doesn't seem to me like he's really putting himself at risk here. Didn't really bash the firm at all (just pointed out their fee structure), and didn't include too many personal details (all we know his name may include "Tim W" that he may work in a financial firm and that he may make six figures - and thats if everything he wrote is true!)
If Tim W continues posting, some of his personal details will emerge. While it's difficult to identify a writer based on his writing style alone, it's easier to authenticate a writer using his writing samples if it's known that his name is Tim W and he works in the financial industry.

Victoria
I'm thinking the OP is probably smart and his or her name is not Tim W.
Last edited by GoldenFinch on Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by VictoriaF »

GoldenFinch wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
TheRightKost87 wrote:
mhc wrote:Tim,

if you want to keep your job, I wouldn't post such things on the internet.
What is every financial firm in the country gonna read this board, scour their rosters for every "Tim W" employee, and then interrogate them until they figure out if the person who posted this is one of theirs?

Doesn't seem to me like he's really putting himself at risk here. Didn't really bash the firm at all (just pointed out their fee structure), and didn't include too many personal details (all we know his name may include "Tim W" that he may work in a financial firm and that he may make six figures - and thats if everything he wrote is true!)
If Tim W continues posting, some of his personal details will emerge. While it's difficult to identify a writer based on his writing style alone, it's easier to authenticate a writer using his writing samples if it's known that his name is Tim W and he works in the financial industry.

Victoria
I'm thinking th OP is probably smart and his or her name is not Tim W.
Alternatively, the OP is smart but had not considered the consequences of his message. His first message will also be his last message as "Tim W." Soon we will get a new poster with the same writing style but a different name. He won't be called Tim.

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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by neurosphere »

VictoriaF wrote:Alternatively, the OP is smart but had not considered the consequences of his message. His first message will also be his last message as "Tim W." Soon we will get a new poster with the same writing style but a different name. He won't be called Tim.
Victoria
Tim?!? Tim Willis of UBS in Cleveland?! Wow, you were my broker before I became a Boglehead! I felt so bad when I fired you and transferred my assets to Vanguard. Nice to see you are doing well!! :D :D
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Caduceus »

The OP's content is mostly unobjectionable, so I'm not sure I see what the problem is. His statements were factual and specific (his firm charges high management fees, which he defines as anything above 1%). He did not reveal the identity of his employer. He did not criticize his employer in general, but focused on his own struggle to define his career.

The only conflict of interest I can perceive is if he is marketing and recommending products that he does not have a reasonable basis to believe will benefit his client. But people don't have to agree, and it could be a company or a team decision for which the OP Is a dissenting minority. As long as he has a good faith belief that the other members of his team/firm could possibly have a sound basis to recommend particular investments (even if he disagrees), I don't think he is in any breach of ethics.

If only more finance folks were more like him!
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Nowizard »

My suggestion is that you are evaluating yourself negatively by use of the term "hypocrite." I suppose you could say you are if someone wants to be very specific, but I would not approach it that way. You are apparently not in marketing, so the people who come to your firm have done their research or are in the process of educating themselves. After all, not everyone is a Boglehead, and many of us are "hypocrites" if one must adhere to all Boglehead tenants in order to be certified by the site. :happy As such, I would suggest you focus on whether you are having difficulty with your work. If that is the case, then you may have a job conflict, but to call yourself a hypocrite when there are many people who apparently agree with the philosophy of your firm is being quite rough on yourself. Each of us is in conflict between what we state we believe and what we do in more than one area if we evaluate ourselves honestly, but that is simply because we are human. I would say you are making a compromise decision at the present time and will eventually decide whether the compromise is one you can or cannot accept. This is a conflict most of us experience at various times.

Tim
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by SQRT »

I think the OP is too hard on himself. Anybody who works for a bank, insurance co, gov't, car company, mining co, oil co, etc might wonder from time to time if they are a hypocrit. Get over it. We live in a free society where people make their own choices. You might think they are "suckers" and many would agree with you, but to worry about it this this extent? I certainly didn't.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by cherijoh »

ShiftF5 wrote:
rustymutt wrote:I think that's for you decide and nobody elses business. I find it strange that you'd ask such a question.
I think the fact it bothers you speaks to your character.

I'd listen to that voice and just start quietly exploring other ways you might use your expertise more in line with your beliefs.

Rick Ferrys story is a good place to start.

Best wishes.
Did you mean Rick Ferri?
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by VictoriaF »

cherijoh wrote:
ShiftF5 wrote:Rick Ferrys story is a good place to start.
Did you mean Rick Ferri?
Ferris Bueller?

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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by JLJL »

Tim,

If you had a family member who was an "HNW" individual, would you refer them to your firm? You said you wouldn't recommend friends and family to your firm but grouping them this way implies that they are neither institutional investors or HNW individuals.

If you couldn't recommend your firm to someone in it's target customer base, then yes I think you have a problem.

I highly doubt there are droves of institutional investors who are chatting up BH forum and making calls based on advice from their "first time poster - portfolio review needed" feedback, and there are reasons why HNW investors might need to pay for this service. So in this space, does your company add value or not? And do you help them add that value?

If I were you, I wouldn't take the general advice of this forum personally. I would take the advice though, for your personal finances. (I didn't intend to be poetic on that last line)
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Michread »

ShiftF5 wrote:
rustymutt wrote:I think that's for you decide and nobody elses business. I find it strange that you'd ask such a question.
I think the fact it bothers you speaks to your character.

I'd listen to that voice and just start quietly exploring other ways you might use your expertise more in line with your beliefs.

Rick Ferrys story is a good place to start.

Best wishes.
Yes, I agree.

It means that you have a conscience and care about other people. The world would be a better place if we all thought a little more about how our actions impact others and what we can do in the positive direction.

Thank you for your honest post.
Early retirement 2018
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by joe8d »

However, my struggle is that my company charges pretty high management fees (>1% for mostly institutional investors and HNW people)
I wouldn't worry about that class of investors.It's the ordinary investor that I'd be concerned about.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by cherijoh »

Everyone defines the value of a service differently. Some of those clients may know there are cheaper alternatives, but are willing to pay for "hand-holding". In my opinion, people need to do due diligence and ask questions about how much a service or a product will cost them. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who go to CPAs for relatively easy tax preparation (W-2 income + interest + dividends + capital gains). But someone else may think I'm crazy to pay to have someone mow my lawn. :happy

I would focus on whether your company is behaving ethically and make sure it is avoiding things like:
- churning accounts to generate fees
- recommending funds that are inappropriate for clients goals or risk tolerance
- making customer statements so complicated that you need to be a CPA or an MBA to figure out how much the services are costing them
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Pizzasteve510 »

Many human endeavors have variability in terms of value for comparable worth. I would not stress about it.

Expensive restaurants serve overpriced, often unhealthy foods. I still partake.
Expensive designers sell Chinese made, factory clothes and purses for huge markups. People line up to buy. We like it this way, as people want status symbols. Same for cars, furs, many other items.
Jewelry is marked up so much that a 75% off sale is likely still earning multiples. Watch markups are obscene.
A painting sold by a struggling artist may go at auction for millions, a few years later if the stars line up right.
A singer can earn millions singing in a stadium or pennies on the street, with the same voice.
How about that trophy husband/wife that is married 6 months and inherits everything due to an accident.

It is up to each of us to decide if we are shocked by the general tendency of humans to overcharge each other, get undue windfalls, or be drawn to a status oriented product or service. A BH may scoff and claim they do or don't need an asset manager service, but that is how it is. We can't control our price for water, electricity or tax rates either.

So my goal is to try to gently educate and make the best of what influence I have to nudge those that matter towards a better financial model. Buying VG funds is a good way to vote your conscience. I do not judge those that love or earn their living via any of the flawed industries mentioned above. I applaud Andy Warhol for painting a can and selling it. Brilliant on many levels and poking fun at exactly this human trait.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by roymeo »

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AAA
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by AAA »

I think that unless a person works for a non-profit that saves the whales or distributes food to the homeless etc., then there will always be moral/ethical compromises involved. But it doesn't sound like you are putting people out on the street.

I remember pointing out to someone that their broker was putting him into load funds, rather than no-load funds that perform as well or better, and his response was "he has to make a living also." Apparently, he didn't care too much. Maybe most of your HNW people have the same philosophy.
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Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by leonard »

I wouldn't work there.

I don't think the "Low cost" mantra has the exception "unless I make money from it".

Not meaning to be rude - but you did ask the question directly.

EDIT: Incredible the feedback actual(?) BHs are giving. Looks like we just make comments on a forum about "low cost investing' but in the real world where it matters, high cost investing seems perfectly fine if you are making your living on it.
Last edited by leonard on Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
staythecourse
Posts: 6993
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:40 am

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by staythecourse »

A job is a job. If you have a better opportunity to go elsewhere great, but you number one priority is to your family to put a meal on the table and roof over their heads WITHOUT doing anything illegal. I think you can check that box.

Don't worry about it.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
Trader Joe
Posts: 2697
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:38 pm

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Trader Joe »

Tim W wrote:Good morning everyone,

I've been lurking these forums and Bogleheads in general for a little over a year now. With multiples degrees in financial disciplines, I never considered myself uneducated when it came to personal finance. BOY WAS I WRONG! I'm so thankful for the advice I've read around here (even with all of the different opinions), and my family is in a much better financial situation because of it. We're not rich by any means, but now we at least have a plan and strategies to get there!

As my title indicates, though, I'm having a struggle. I work in the investment world, Wall St if you will, for a successful asset management company. We have actively managed strategies across the board: equities and alternatives.On a personal level, my co-workers are awesome and I'm proud to call some of them friends. I bring home a very comfortable (six-figure) salary with great benefits in a relatively normal COL area. My wife is able to stay home with our children, and although we don't live lavishly we also don't want for anything. However, my struggle is that my company charges pretty high management fees (>1% for mostly institutional investors and HNW people), and I would honestly never consider owning our funds. I mean, our 401(k) plan THANKFULLY offers a wide array of low-fee Vanguard choices; but even if it didn't I'd never consider owning our funds. I wouldn't even recommend my family or friends to invest here!

Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
To answer your questions:

1. Am I part of the problem?? Yes.
2. Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? Yes.
3. I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? Yes.
Lake Living
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:09 pm

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Lake Living »

Trader Joe wrote:
Tim W wrote:Good morning everyone,


To answer your questions:

1. Am I part of the problem?? Yes.
2. Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? Yes.
3. I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? Yes.
From Nerd wallet:

Pacemaker implantation for heart patients:

Lowest price: Memorial Hermann Hospital in Memorial City, with an average hospital charge of $30,819.00
The highest price: Houston Northwest Medical Center, with an average charge of $73,363.00.
The difference: $42,544

Are the doctors, nurses and the rest of the staff at Houston NW doing something immoral and should they all quit their jobs?
IPer
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:51 pm

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by IPer »

Tim W wrote:Good morning everyone,

I've been lurking these forums and Bogleheads in general for a little over a year now. With multiples degrees in financial disciplines, I never considered myself uneducated when it came to personal finance. BOY WAS I WRONG! I'm so thankful for the advice I've read around here (even with all of the different opinions), and my family is in a much better financial situation because of it. We're not rich by any means, but now we at least have a plan and strategies to get there!

As my title indicates, though, I'm having a struggle. I work in the investment world, Wall St if you will, for a successful asset management company. We have actively managed strategies across the board: equities and alternatives.On a personal level, my co-workers are awesome and I'm proud to call some of them friends. I bring home a very comfortable (six-figure) salary with great benefits in a relatively normal COL area. My wife is able to stay home with our children, and although we don't live lavishly we also don't want for anything. However, my struggle is that my company charges pretty high management fees (>1% for mostly institutional investors and HNW people), and I would honestly never consider owning our funds. I mean, our 401(k) plan THANKFULLY offers a wide array of low-fee Vanguard choices; but even if it didn't I'd never consider owning our funds. I wouldn't even recommend my family or friends to invest here!

Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? This may be more of a philosophical question than a personal finance question. I couldn't find the "Philosophy" sub-forum. :D
Give it up! There is no moral bearing on whether you can stay at or do your job. Slap face, splash water, rinse, repeat if need be! Also don't go around
your company preaching the Boglehead news, just don't even go there, it is not your responsibility and it will detract from your value as an employee of
that company.
Read the Wiki Wiki !
IPer
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:51 pm

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by IPer »

Bogle101 wrote: Some people want to pay a little extra for hand holding and the bells and whistles of an active firm.
Change to Some people want to pay a fortune...!
Read the Wiki Wiki !
TheRightKost87
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:25 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by TheRightKost87 »

VictoriaF wrote: Alternatively, the OP is smart but had not considered the consequences of his message. His first message will also be his last message as "Tim W." Soon we will get a new poster with the same writing style but a different name. He won't be called Tim.

Victoria
Unless, John D posted here last week, and realized his mistake and has now posted this topic under the alias "Tim W" :P
"The problem with diversification is that it works, whether or not we want it to"
User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by VictoriaF »

TheRightKost87 wrote:
VictoriaF wrote: Alternatively, the OP is smart but had not considered the consequences of his message. His first message will also be his last message as "Tim W." Soon we will get a new poster with the same writing style but a different name. He won't be called Tim.

Victoria
Unless, John D posted here last week, and realized his mistake and has now posted this topic under the alias "Tim W" :P
Very clever, TheRightKost87!

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
feh
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by feh »

We're all hypocrites, to some extent. Since I own the total market, I'm profiting from companies that do some pretty heinous things.
leonard
Posts: 5993
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by leonard »

Lake Living wrote:
Trader Joe wrote:
Tim W wrote:Good morning everyone,


To answer your questions:

1. Am I part of the problem?? Yes.
2. Does this make me some kind of hypocrite in the Boglehead world? Yes.
3. I mean, aren't I building my wealth on the backs of suckers who haven't found Bogleheads yet? Yes.
From Nerd wallet:

Pacemaker implantation for heart patients:

Lowest price: Memorial Hermann Hospital in Memorial City, with an average hospital charge of $30,819.00
The highest price: Houston Northwest Medical Center, with an average charge of $73,363.00.
The difference: $42,544

Are the doctors, nurses and the rest of the staff at Houston NW doing something immoral and should they all quit their jobs?
How many times has the ability myth been refuted here on bogleheads?

If both hospitals are doing transplants of equivalent quality and outcomes - as a society we are better off getting 2+ of them at Memorial compared to Houston. I'll let you be the arbiter of whether that's moral - but it's just a way better deal.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
User avatar
Meg77
Posts: 2835
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by Meg77 »

Hypocrite is the wrong word. Many professionals provide expensive services that they wouldn't pay for themselves or that could be found more cheaply. That doesn't mean they have to feel obliged to advice their customers they can find cheaper goods or guilty for charging more. Do you expect the salesperson at Nordstrom to confess that some of their brands are sold more cheaply online? The Whole Foods cheese clerk to recommend Costco as an alternative? Of course not.

Unless you are being dishonest or misleading customers or hiding fees then don't let this bother you. Alternately, find a firm that promotes lower cost funds or getting affordable advice to the masses or has a different fee structure. There are worse ethical dilemmas. Millions of people work for companies that actively promote unhealthy or dangerous products or damage the environment (fast food, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals, real estate development, oil and gas, gambling, alcohol, et al).
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
tbradnc
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:30 am

Re: Am I part of the problem??

Post by tbradnc »

feh wrote:We're all hypocrites, to some extent. Since I own the total market, I'm profiting from companies that do some pretty heinous things.
I struggle with this as well.

But to the OP, I would say that on one level, yes - you are part of the problem. If you have to ask the question you know the answer. On another level we're all doing the best we can so who can judge you? It's a personal thing - if it bothers you enough you'll find another line of work. Otherwise, carry on.
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