How do you balance frugality and life?

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Triple digit golfer
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How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Triple digit golfer »

I feel guilty and I probably shouldn't.

I am doing better than 95% of the population when it comes to saving, investing, and all around frugality. Still, compared to some Bogleheads and the people at Mr. Money Mustache, I'm not doing nearly what I'm capable of doing. I'm an amateur compared to some of those people. I have a 2013 Accord and I go out to eat a couple times a week.

My fiance and I are currently saving 20% of our gross incomes for retirement and another 12-15% in savings for future purchases. $172k income, $35k+ for retirement and easily $24k+ going to savings. We'd like to have 20% down for a house, our next two cars paid for, plus savings for things like appliances, major car repairs, and unexpected expenses like a medical emergency, etc.

We have a monthly budget for the two of us combined, and we allow for some generous spending in certain categories, like $1,800/year for clothes, $1,800/year for gifts, $4,000/year for vacations, $1,600/year for cable and internet, and $15,000/year for groceries, entertainment, consumables, and home goods. We like to go out to eat a couple times a week and at home I like to eat quality food. Nothing organic or anything, but whole foods like fresh meat, nuts, fruits, and vegetables are not cheap.

We could very easily cut most of those categories in half and save an extra $12k+ a year. This has me feeling guilty, like I am inefficient and not building as much wealth as I can, and potentially adding years onto my working life.

My fiance also said that for her next car she'd like a Honda CR-V, probably used. To most people, that's fine, no issue at all. Me? I find myself reading about cars on Mr. Money Mustache and how they buy 10+ year old cars for $4,000 cash and I start to get a sick feeling in my stomach, thinking about how an $18k car means that we're saving so much less than we could if we spent say, $9k or even less on a car.

My fiance is frugal by most standards - clips coupons, looks for sales, doesn't buy much "stuff." I find myself wanting to get on her case sometimes, particularly about the desire for an $18k car, but then I think to myself how good we're doing and how it's really not realistic to expect her to pinch every penny we make. She agreed to open a Roth IRA and bump her 401(k) contributions. She's on board with our budget and even asks how we're doing each month. If we're thinking about going out to eat and I say that I'd rather not spend the money, she's typically fine with us cooking.

How do I make myself content with being better with my money than 95% of people but not better than the most frugal of the frugal?
savagehenry
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by savagehenry »

You shouldn't feel guilty, but i get it. It's a personality quirk and I have the same tendencies sometimes. It's all about balance and moderation in life. Sure you can save a gazillion dollars and get to 65 and sleep on piles of cash if you want to, but you must ask yourself at what cost? Did you forget to live and enjoy life a little in the middle? It's all about what makes you tick, maybe you enjoy being frugal and that's what makes you happy? Just find a balance is the best I can come up with. There are many people who make tons of money and save tons of money but they very well may not be happy at all. Who knows? People aren't public companies and don't have to open their books for inspection.

To my untrained eye you look like you are in good shape to me. I agree about not skimping on good groceries. My wife and I could cut our grocery budget in half if we just shopped in the freezer section, but at what cost? My health? No way. As far as the car goes if you have the money and it doesn't effect your retirement savings and goals then who cares if someone on MMM forum buys a 4K car? They might not have the savings or income rate you do.

Here's something that might make you feel better. Speak with a fee only financial advisor... Not someone to direct your investments or tell you what to do but just someone to look at your overall situation and tell you that you are doing fine. Hearing that from someone else, particularly someone who sees all types of situations, has a way of making one feel more comfortable and realize they are A-OK.
SRenaeP
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by SRenaeP »

Triple digit golfer wrote: How do I make myself content with being better with my money than 95% of people but not better than the most frugal of the frugal?
Don't concern yourself with what other people are doing. (Easier said than done, of course). What makes YOU and your fiancée happy? What do you value? What's the point of saving every single dime you can? I'm all for conscious spending but life is for the living and you can't take it with you.

-Steph
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Pajamas
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Pajamas »

Roughly, your income goes 1/3 to taxes, 1/3 to savings, and 1/3 to living expenses. That sounds about right. Your spending by category also sounds appropriate, especially for your income. Feed your body the best food or you may regret it in the future both healthwise and financially.

What would be a perfect plan to handle your money so that you won't feel guilty? There is none. The guilt is not from your spending, you are creating it. The answer is not in changing your spending. This is not really a financial question.

You should enjoy your life, because you never know when it will end. The past is memories, the future may or may not come, so you truly only have the present. Plan for the future, but live in the present.
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The Wizard
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by The Wizard »

Back when I was still in the Working Class, I balanced things nicely by just deciding on a certain percentage of gross income to save for retirement each year and then spending the rest on riotous living of various sorts.
I would increment the retirement percentage a bit once in a while when I got a raise, but not enough to squash the riotous living part.
I think this balancing act comes almost naturally to some of us...
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kaudrey
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by kaudrey »

I am 45 now, and I used to be much more uptight about money. I worried about every penny. But you get to a point where you have to actively DECIDE to be OK with spending some - be active about being OK with finding that balance. It's not easy, but you can do it.

We make about what you do, and save about the same. Mentally, I now think of it as just letting myself be OK with spending "whatever is left". Meaning, the 401(K), IRA, and taxable savings contributions are all done automatically on payday. So as long as we aren't "digging into" those automatic contributions for everyday expenses, then I don't worry about it. And I also mentally have some of the taxable money earmarked for vacations and cars and whatever in addition to emergencies.

If it helps, we just bought a brand new 2015 Honda CR-V (and we love it!). Before we bought it, we just set a budget, and we just couldn't go over that budget (we didn't know what SUV we were going to get before we started looking). We are foodies and spend quite a bit of money on nice restaurants (not every week, but once or twice a month), and eat out/meet friends for drinks at least once a week.

As long as you feel you are meeting your savings goals, don't worry about the rest. "Keeping up with the Bogleheads" could be just as destructive to your mental health as "keeping up with the Jonses" could be to your finances.
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englishgirl
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by englishgirl »

I've been spending a lot of time at MMM in the past few months. I am definitely not one of the most frugal by a long shot! I have no intention of giving up my car, for example - it's a 2009, bought new, and I intend to hold it for 10 years. However, they have rubbed off on me a little bit, and when it's time to replace, I'll probably buy a 3-year old car (or similar) when I do change, instead of another new car, so that some of the depreciation has already gone by the time I buy. Anyway, I don't think there's any need for those of us with no debt to go to the extremes of selling a car and buying a cheaper one just to release some of the equity.

I HAVE made some good changes since hanging out over there. I find that I am generally spending a lot less on frivolous stuff, so that's a good thing, even if I am not uber frugal by their standards. And I find that by cutting expenses I am more relaxed about retiring with a smaller stash, rather than the more Boglehead thoughts of needing a larger portfolio for a safety buffer.
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elchris
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by elchris »

Triple digit golfer wrote:I feel guilty and I probably shouldn't.
How do I make myself content with being better with my money than 95% of people but not better than the most frugal of the frugal?
I understand what you are saying, but you have to (sometimes constantly) remind yourself of the bigger scheme. What are your bigger goals, is it to be the most frugal, is it to be happy, is it to be in line with your set goals? I know it is hard to do sometimes, I read (esp on this forum) about other people who save more than we do, have more than we do etc etc but once I remind myself that hey, we are happy with how we are doing, we are in line with our goals for the moment and are doing the best we can, it all goes away. At the end of the day, what is the money in my bank account going to do for me if I am not able to spend it to experience life!

Let me give you an example, by everyone in our circle, we are quite frugal: we pack lunch everyday, get coffee from home, share one old/used car, clip coupons, buy things on sale, shop during Black Friday etc, but travel and seeing the world is quite important to both of us so once the necessities are paid for (included here is our 15% retirement savings goal), we budget for our yearly trip/vacation. Someone else might choose to forego the travel and put that money towards retirement to achieve the 20% retirement savings sweet spot. My priorities are different, and I am quite happy with that. There will be a time when I'll be out of school (ie. 2 incomes) and be able to max every retirement vehicle there is out there, but nobody can give me back the time/happiness of enjoying certain experiences now.

What I am trying to say is, it is all about prioritizing with a budget. What is important to me may be not important to you. If you both have set up a budget with goals in mind, prioritizing those goals by importance to you and your happiness, then just reminding yourself of what/how you set up those goals should be enough to make you appreciate where you stand. It is not a competition with other people, it is a competition to achieve your goals (whatever they are), that's how I see money!
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Toons
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Toons »

"I am 45 now, and I used to be much more uptight about money. I worried about every penny. But you get to a point where you have to actively DECIDE to be OK with spending some - be active about being OK with finding that balance. It's not easy, but you can do it. "


+1- It comes with the passage of time and one understands ,that ,forgive me for being morbid,there will be an "end day" and the longer you live the more you realize this fact.

So if possible to the OP ,try not to question every expense and whether you could do better by saving more,you are doing a fantastic job of saving and investing .
Regarding your wife's desire to purchase a used CRV ,nice idea,,BUT do not rule out the thought of a New Crv, enjoy
(We recently purchased a Crv 2015,,superb,,,You Only Live Once) :happy
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Hikes_With_Dogs
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »

If you get hit by a bus and die tomorrow, will you feel you have missed out on anything?

Balance is definitely personal; but I had a parent die young, clutching pennies til his last breath and he never got to spend any of it. I don't want that life for me or my family. Save what you are "supposed" to (and, that's also personal, but it might be saving 15% of your take home, or maxing your retirement options), don't spend the money carelessly, and don't worry about the rest.

Money is earned to be spent. There is no other reason.

PS I bought a 5 year old used CRV with cash. 15k or so. I love it, it's reliable, and I'm not missing out on anything. :)
EnjoyIt
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by EnjoyIt »

Here is my advice:

1) set your goals. Without goals you have no idea what you are trying to achieve. Do you want to retire in 10 years, go part time in 10 years, retire at 70. How much money do you need for a 4% withdrawl rate (this is a ball park figure. I don't want to get into the 4%) argument here.

2) once you know your goal, see how much need to invest with a 5% real return to reach your goal (again, I don't want to argue about the 5% return either)

3) for piece of mind feel free to hedge on a little extra cash as a goal.

4) as long as you are saving enough for those goals, feel free to spend the rest.
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3504PIR
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by 3504PIR »

I measure myself against myself. I have an overall plan to get where I want to be in a certain amount of time and also generally outline an annual plan for the big stuff like saving and investing. I don't live frugally to begin with, but do a monthly check on how I'm doing in both my overall plan and the annual one. I try to set aside funds for variable costs such as travel, which is way more than it would be if I lived in the US and I remain pretty strict on the fixed costs like saving and investing. I'm very fortunate to have very little in the way of "life" costs like rent, etc which are covered by my employer. Im also lucky that I'm 50 and at my peak earning time so from my net income I save just over 50%. I just bought a car for my wife which will be my first monthly bill in 5 years, but plan to pay that off quickly.

Summary - have a good plan and a timeline for saving and retiring, make a good living and enjoy life.
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kingsnake
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by kingsnake »

This is difficult for many of us I think. I am going to try to actively spend more money on experiences. For example taking the family to Florida this year. I will take more time away from work this year. At some point, one has to let it go and live life.
acejacksingh
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by acejacksingh »

I don't have real actionable items to give but my thought is...what's the point of making money if you can't spend any of it?

I'm around a 30% savings rate right now and still eat out 3-4 times a week, drive a car I can't afford and pay premium gas and insurance (I'm a car enthusiast) because I like these things. I also eat very organic because I see it as an investment in my health.

Pay a little bit more now for quality of life and other enjoyable things/events and you won't pay the big bucks later on medication and other treatments.
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Money is a tool to be used, not to be hoarded. Use the tool wisely and prosper. Use it carelessly and be poorer for it.
A wise use of the tool - save for a rainy day and invest with an eye to the future, but use it for current needs that permit one to be able to enjoy that future (buy the CRV). A poor use of the tool - spend with reckless abandon with no accounting of your inflows and outflows, one soon comes to the bottom of the pot with nary a resource for both current and/or future needs when the ability to earn an income has long since past. And if you want to read a good book - I recommend The Millionaire Next Door, the book is 18 years old, but the bottom line is all that is in there still holds true today. Enjoy your friends and family, make use of the tool wisely - all things in moderation, remember that a U-Haul will not follow you when you make your final departure. Good Luck!
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bigred77
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by bigred77 »

My personal opinion is that if your under age 30-35 (which for some reason i think the OP is, he doesn't mention in this thread), saving anything more than 25% - 33% for retirement is severe overkill unless you're making some extreme income or believe your income to be very unstable/unsustainable.

Now if you have a concrete goal of retiring before 50 or something, thats different.
If not, enjoy your youth more. You won't get it back.
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mmmodem
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by mmmodem »

Just as you shouldn't try to "keep up with the Jones," you shouldn't try to "keep up with the mmm's." There's no point in trying to beat the savings percentage of someone who is addicted to savings and finds joy socking money away. That someone is me by the way. It brings me way more pleasure to put $5500 into a Roth IRA than to spend that money on
a vacation. My values and your values are different. I don't feel guilty saving too much money when my peers go on vacations. Likewise, they shouldn't feel guilty going on vacations while I am not. Aspiring to be more Boglehead and increasing savings is a good thing. But trying to save more money percentage wise than someone who finds as much joy saving as you do spending will be difficult.
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by White Coat Investor »

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/enough-is-enough/
So here are some tips if you find yourself forgetting “moderation in all things.”

1) Grow Income- If you’re like me, and want to max everything out, you can still do that AND have more money to spend if you make more. You can increase your income by working more hours, by increasing your income per hour worked by making your practice more efficient, or by developing a side income. It’s always easier to save $50K when you make $250K than when you make $200K.

2) Stop saving once you hit your goal- Run the numbers and figure out how much you really need to save each year. Then when you hit it, stop saving. If you’re not sure how much you need, I suggest putting 20% of your income toward retirement.

3) Remember that all stages of life are different- There are times in your life when saving should be a priority- such as your late 30s and your 40s. A dollar saved in your 30s is 8 times as valuable as a dollar saved in your 60s. Other stages, like med school and residency, and in retirement, are the time to spend. Remembering your priority for your given stage will help you make the transition to spending your money.

4) Learn to enjoy spending as well as saving- Spending money is fun. Saving money can also be fun. Learn to enjoy both. You save now to spend later, not to accumulate some huge stash of cash to die with.

5) Use a credit card- If you’re unable to save enough money, I’ve recommended you get rid of your credit cards. Credit cards have been shown to cause you to spend more money than if you spend cash, because it is more psychologically painful to part with the green stuff. The reverse is also true. If it’s painful for you to spend money, use a credit card. A compulsive saver is unlikely to get into credit card trouble, so you might as well take advantage of the convenience.

6) Let your significant other buy stuff for you- Many couples are composed of a saver and a spender. If it’s painful for you to spend, have your S.O. go do it for you. Then you get to enjoy some nice stuff without having to feel the psychological pain of buying it.
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DrivingFun
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by DrivingFun »

I know what you mean. In fact I have to force myself to snap out of it and spend money. There has got to be a middle ground between YOLO and I must max out every account possible while eating Top Ramen. To be perfectly honest I find that finding this balance is very hard, I have to constantly work at it.
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by mistike »

It's all a matter of priority. Do you want to retire at 40, or are you fine with retiring at 60 ? Do you want to die a billionaire ? Your priorities and theirs are different, doesn't mean one is better than the other. As long as you spend consciously and as long as you're happy and making sure your future self will be reasonably happy too.

Don't feel guilty because you're making different life choices than other people. If you're guilty now and decide to go full MMM, then you'll feel guilty of not doing like the rest of the population.

MMM's people are one extreme. It sometimes almost seem like (some of them) are doing it as much for sports as for their future. You don't have to go to the extreme to be smart.
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by leonard »

I don't see an innate tension between frugality and life. It's only when you believe "money spent" = "life lived" that you introduce the tension.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by TheTimeLord »

Triple digit golfer wrote:How do I make myself content with being better with my money than 95% of people but not better than the most frugal of the frugal?
I can't for the life of me imagine wanting to be the most frugal of the frugal. I personally don't aspire to owning a used car, new works just fine. I want to have live my life in my teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and hopefully beyond. I want to enjoy the company of good friends over a meal. Heck, I want to pay for the meal. I truly believe in LBYM but I have no desire to get in a contest to see who can spend the least. As far as the rest of the you, to be honest what you have or what you do has little effect on my desires. My wife and I have been successful so far by LWBOM and concentrating on the things we want and not worrying about all the stuff other people find important. This is your life, learn from others but be yourself.
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Toons
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Toons »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Money is a tool to be used, not to be hoarded. Use the tool wisely and prosper. Use it carelessly and be poorer for it.
A wise use of the tool - save for a rainy day and invest with an eye to the future, but use it for current needs that permit one to be able to enjoy that future (buy the CRV). A poor use of the tool - spend with reckless abandon with no accounting of your inflows and outflows, one soon comes to the bottom of the pot with nary a resource for both current and/or future needs when the ability to earn an income has long since past. And if you want to read a good book - I recommend The Millionaire Next Door, the book is 18 years old, but the bottom line is all that is in there still holds true today. Enjoy your friends and family, make use of the tool wisely - all things in moderation, remember that a U-Haul will not follow you when you make your final departure. Good Luck!
+1 I like that line. :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
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Triple digit golfer
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Excellent posts and great perspective, everybody. I read every single one of them, plus EmergDoc's article.

If I had my way, I'd live on very little, save 50%+ of my income, and retire at 50.

However, if I did that I'd be 50 and single with nothing to do and potentially 40+ years to do it, because there are very few women who would want to live a lifestyle like that. Doesn't sound all that rewarding to be old, wealthy, and lonely.

So I guess if I want a wife and kids I'm going to have to sacrifice and not save quite as much as I'd like and end up working a bit longer.

I just want to get her out of the mentality of "you retire at 65." I want to be retired for a decade or longer by the time I'm 65, and to do that requires diligent, consistent saving of a lot of money. I need to be happy with saving 20% of our incomes and being better off than a lot of people. I need to not be one of those people who enjoys the act of saving more than the reward of finally getting what I've been saving for.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by TheTimeLord »

Triple digit golfer wrote: If I had my way, I'd live on very little, save 50%+ of my income, and retire at 50.
I should be able to live very comfortably in retirement thanks to Living Below My Means. That said, I could have had considerably more saved by now if I didn't indulge in my hobbies or travel. But then what would I have done in the years between college and retirement, the years of my best health and vitality? While I am sure I wasted more than a couple dollars along the way, the things I value most come from time with others participating in a hobby or fairly expensive trips abroad or being on live aboard dive boats. Those things are what have made my life not the zeros in my bank balance. The reason I continue saving and continue working is so I can do more and more of those types of things through the end of my life. I can't imagine how one would save all their life then one day at 50 say today I start doing all the things I always wanted to. By then would you still want to? I have no idea. I do know I have loved photography and diving and visiting Africa and Antartica because for me that was the right path. Work is a means to an end and for me the end were all those things I was able to do plus setting aside some for a comfortable retirement.
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scone
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by scone »

Triple digit golfer wrote:Excellent posts and great perspective, everybody. I read every single one of them, plus EmergDoc's article.

If I had my way, I'd live on very little, save 50%+ of my income, and retire at 50.

However, if I did that I'd be 50 and single with nothing to do and potentially 40+ years to do it, because there are very few women who would want to live a lifestyle like that. Doesn't sound all that rewarding to be old, wealthy, and lonely.

So I guess if I want a wife and kids I'm going to have to sacrifice and not save quite as much as I'd like and end up working a bit longer.

I just want to get her out of the mentality of "you retire at 65." I want to be retired for a decade or longer by the time I'm 65, and to do that requires diligent, consistent saving of a lot of money. I need to be happy with saving 20% of our incomes and being better off than a lot of people. I need to not be one of those people who enjoys the act of saving more than the reward of finally getting what I've been saving for.

O.K., the above is an entirely different set of emotions. It's not just "I feel guilty because I'm a cheapskate." It's more like "I feel guilty because I want to change my fiance." Or maybe "I feel I have to strike a cash deal with my fiance in order to keep her and not end up a lonely loser."

That last statement is concerning on many levels. It's like you're "buying" a fiance. Not a good basis for a partnership at all.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with super-saving for a goal like early retirement or financial independence. And if that is something you'd like to explore, certainly nothing wrong with discussing it with your fiance. If you don't start the convo, you'll never know. Just don't try to "get her out of the mentality" on anything. You can't change people, and you shouldn't try to change someone you love. If there is love and respect, and you stick together, there tends to be a meeting of the minds over time, and believe me, that's enough.

At least, it works for me. I married Mr. Ultimate Cheapskate, and we've been together 24 years. :D
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Triple digit golfer
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Triple digit golfer »

scone wrote:
Triple digit golfer wrote:Excellent posts and great perspective, everybody. I read every single one of them, plus EmergDoc's article.

If I had my way, I'd live on very little, save 50%+ of my income, and retire at 50.

However, if I did that I'd be 50 and single with nothing to do and potentially 40+ years to do it, because there are very few women who would want to live a lifestyle like that. Doesn't sound all that rewarding to be old, wealthy, and lonely.

So I guess if I want a wife and kids I'm going to have to sacrifice and not save quite as much as I'd like and end up working a bit longer.

I just want to get her out of the mentality of "you retire at 65." I want to be retired for a decade or longer by the time I'm 65, and to do that requires diligent, consistent saving of a lot of money. I need to be happy with saving 20% of our incomes and being better off than a lot of people. I need to not be one of those people who enjoys the act of saving more than the reward of finally getting what I've been saving for.

O.K., the above is an entirely different set of emotions. It's not just "I feel guilty because I'm a cheapskate." It's more like "I feel guilty because I want to change my fiance." Or maybe "I feel I have to strike a cash deal with my fiance in order to keep her and not end up a lonely loser."

That last statement is concerning on many levels. It's like you're "buying" a fiance. Not a good basis for a partnership at all.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with super-saving for a goal like early retirement or financial independence. And if that is something you'd like to explore, certainly nothing wrong with discussing it with your fiance. If you don't start the convo, you'll never know. Just don't try to "get her out of the mentality" on anything. You can't change people, and you shouldn't try to change someone you love. If there is love and respect, and you stick together, there tends to be a meeting of the minds over time, and believe me, that's enough.

At least, it works for me. I married Mr. Ultimate Cheapskate, and we've been together 24 years. :D
No, you interpreted my post all wrong, or, maybe I did not convey my feelings properly.

I love my fiance and I'm excited to spend my life with her. She's not the issue.

I need to change my way of thinking. When someone invites me to a Bulls or White Sox game, I should be excited instead of thinking immediately of how much it will cost me and the impact it will have on my budget and savings goals. I need to be happy with making and sticking to a budget. If I "waste" money, so what, as long as I budgeted for it and am sticking to my plan to waste money.
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JDCarpenter
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by JDCarpenter »

TheTimeLord wrote:While I am sure I wasted more than a couple dollars along the way, the things I value most come from time with others participating in a hobby or fairly expensive trips abroad or being on live aboard dive boats. Those things are what have made my life not the zeros in my bank balance. The reason I continue saving and continue working is so I can do more and more of those types of things through the end of my life. I can't imagine how one would save all their life then one day at 50 say today I start doing all the things I always wanted to. By then would you still want to? I have no idea. I do know I have loved photography and diving and visiting Africa and Antartica because for me that was the right path. Work [and money] is a means to an end and for me the end were all those things I was able to do plus setting aside some for a comfortable retirement.
This is precisely the story for DW and me. Hopefully, with the history of regular, nice dive trips, we won't have any problem in spending money to keep doing it in our late 50s and 60s. Like many said above, remember that money/savings is a tool, not the ultimate goal.
Our personal blog (no ads) of why we saved/invested: https://www.lisajtravels.com/
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Triple digit golfer wrote:
scone wrote:
Triple digit golfer wrote:Excellent posts and great perspective, everybody. I read every single one of them, plus EmergDoc's article.

If I had my way, I'd live on very little, save 50%+ of my income, and retire at 50.

However, if I did that I'd be 50 and single with nothing to do and potentially 40+ years to do it, because there are very few women who would want to live a lifestyle like that. Doesn't sound all that rewarding to be old, wealthy, and lonely.

So I guess if I want a wife and kids I'm going to have to sacrifice and not save quite as much as I'd like and end up working a bit longer.

I just want to get her out of the mentality of "you retire at 65." I want to be retired for a decade or longer by the time I'm 65, and to do that requires diligent, consistent saving of a lot of money. I need to be happy with saving 20% of our incomes and being better off than a lot of people. I need to not be one of those people who enjoys the act of saving more than the reward of finally getting what I've been saving for.

O.K., the above is an entirely different set of emotions. It's not just "I feel guilty because I'm a cheapskate." It's more like "I feel guilty because I want to change my fiance." Or maybe "I feel I have to strike a cash deal with my fiance in order to keep her and not end up a lonely loser."

That last statement is concerning on many levels. It's like you're "buying" a fiance. Not a good basis for a partnership at all.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with super-saving for a goal like early retirement or financial independence. And if that is something you'd like to explore, certainly nothing wrong with discussing it with your fiance. If you don't start the convo, you'll never know. Just don't try to "get her out of the mentality" on anything. You can't change people, and you shouldn't try to change someone you love. If there is love and respect, and you stick together, there tends to be a meeting of the minds over time, and believe me, that's enough.

At least, it works for me. I married Mr. Ultimate Cheapskate, and we've been together 24 years. :D
No, you interpreted my post all wrong, or, maybe I did not convey my feelings properly.

I love my fiance and I'm excited to spend my life with her. She's not the issue.

I need to change my way of thinking. When someone invites me to a Bulls or White Sox game, I should be excited instead of thinking immediately of how much it will cost me and the impact it will have on my budget and savings goals. I need to be happy with making and sticking to a budget. If I "waste" money, so what, as long as I budgeted for it and am sticking to my plan to waste money.
Go because your are excited to spend time with the person, go because you like the team, go because you have the means to without it impeding your daily life and/or goals. Don't go because you don't like the person, don't go because you don't like overpaid guys running around in shorts dribbling an orange ball or men in tight pants holding a glove chomping on tobacco or chewing gum, don't go because you hate peanuts and cracker jack, don't go because you just don't have the time. It's only a waste of time and money if that is how you quantify it. Remember though, you can't rewind the clock, time waits for no one, if you want to do it, then do it because you may not get a second chance.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
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powermega
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by powermega »

As long as your saving and investing is on track for your personal financial plan, then you should not have any problem spending some money right now. There are some things in life that are absolutely priceless experiences that require you to spend money. For example, traveling (especially abroad) is an incredibly enriching experience that is (or usually is) fairly expensive. If you have a family, spending money on experiences that the kids will cherish is another worthy endeavor. Making sure you have a good amount of time off to relax is priceless. All of those things require money spent today.

OK, how about this boglehead-ish justification for current spending:
Current spending is a hedge against potential future disasters (death, total disability, etc). So by spending some money and enjoying life right now, you are reducing overall risk in your life of not having as many wonderful memories as you can.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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tludwig23
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by tludwig23 »

I don't feel that I balance it at all. Everything I save comes out of my paycheck before I ever see it. Whatever ends up in my checking account I get to spend.
That's what I do: I drink, and I know things. --Tyrion Lannister
mac808
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by mac808 »

The best things in life are free.
Quickfoot
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Quickfoot »

I balance it essentially the same way I do eating. I burn 165 calories per mile I run and 1400 calories per hour of exercise, if I want to eat a treat I don't ask myself how much I'll enjoy the treat, I ask myself if it's worth X minutes of exercise.

We spend responsibly, we don't deprive ourselves of things but we also don't randomly purchase new things we don't really need. We have one eye on retirement and emergency fund, half an eye on our current needs and half an eye on things we'd like if they don't interfere with our other goals.

If you are saving 15% to 20% of your income for retirement and have a reasonable emergency fund relax and enjoy life with the rest, you do not have to save more than that.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by TheTimeLord »

mac808 wrote:The best things in life are free.
Such as? I am going to bet whatever you name will somehow require money. Sure there are low cost alternatives like dinner at home in front of a fire instead of going out to a high end restaurant or visiting a National Park instead of cruising to Alaska but free seems like a stretch to me.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
basspond
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by basspond »

Save and give first and then everything else falls into place.
Independent
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Independent »

Most of us would say it's silly to eat steak while you're working, if that means you'll have to live on peanut butter when you're older.

OTOH, it's silly to live on peanut butter while you're working, just so you can eat steak when you're old.

I think it makes sense to save enough so that I can enjoy about the same lifestyle after I quit working as I did while working.

My solution is a calculation. Am I saving at a pace that will allow an eventual retirement, at an age I consider "reasonable", with an income that I think will support a lifestyle similar to my before retirement lifestyle? If so, I'm good. I can enjoy life today.

At your age, your calculation includes not just retirement, but planned spending for a down payment for a house, mortgage payments, etc. That makes the calculation a little more complex, but definitely doable.

Needless to say, that calculation is never perfect. I'll do it this year, spend as indicated, then update it next year.
derosa
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by derosa »

I don't even think that you are married yet. So no kids yet. yada Gee there are going to be some things to spend some money on.

It sounds like you have confused a means with an end. Money only has potential, it doesn't do anything. Doing is what you do. There will always be people with less and always people with more. So don't spend a lot of time comparing.
MnD
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by MnD »

We set a savings amount from each of our paychecks that gets us to where we want to be as far as investment assets required for intermediate term savings goals and an age mid-50's retirement. And spend the rest freely and as foolishly as we please. For our personality types, a life that revolved around frugality sounds dreadful. We aren't big consumers of "stuff" but do spend big on experiences. Since savings are already made we have no regrets about our spending. Three years out from retirement it's looking like the approach worked.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
flyingaway
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by flyingaway »

It is really hard to NOT save money after reading many early retirement posts. We are on our way to reach financial independence in 5 years with our normal saving and spending. But I still want to save every penny possible and wish I could reach financial independence sooner, say, tomorrow.

For example, even gas is cheap these days, I still do not want to drive to buy groceries unless I am on my way home from work, to save one mile driving cost.

(But we do have a big house and Lexus and Infiniti cars. We make two overseas trips each year).
gator15
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by gator15 »

I'm not frugal at all considering some of the toys I own, but I do save and invest a good portion of my income. At times I feel like I can save more though I'm on track to reach my retirement goals. There are other times when I know I can afford to spend a little more and I do. Reading a thread a few weeks ago from this site, someone mentioned you should spend money on things that add value to your life or bring you happiness (not short term). Recently, I've tried to apply that logic with my purchases. It's still a work in progress, but I'm slowly getting there as I think more about my purchases.
Snowjob
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Snowjob »

TDG --

I've been to the extreme for a good stretch of years -- believe me its not all its cracked up to be. While you feel guilty about not being more "efficient" I feel guilty about having been to frugal for many years. Once you are satisfied with an appropriate savings rate, go enjoy life and don't worry about saving the extra $$. I think you are doing just fine.
Dandy
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Dandy »

First of all saving 20% of gross income is great. Also having both of you being frugally focused is a big win. I don't think your risk is spending unwisely -- I think it is being too frugal, As an example looking to buy a much older (and usually less safe) car. You don't have to get a brand new car but should consider that keeping you, your significant other and future dependents safe may be a benefit that is hard to factor into the usual car buying calculation. Very frugal people will often tend to give car safety very little weight in the car buying decision.

The fact that your are frugal and still spend on vacations and other entertainment means you seem pretty good about life balance. For me, learning to spend a bit more for car safety was something I learned later in life and I was glad me and my family didn't pay any price for me not giving car safety a bit higher priority. Several times we came close to having major accidents and I would have kicked myself if I felt that I was short shifting safety so save a few bucks.

The other expense I pay more for is health insurance. When someone in your family has a life threatening illness - you want to get them the best care/doctor you can not the best in your plan. It is much cheaper to use an HMO or Medicare supplement than for me to use my former employer's retiree health insurance. But, that insurance covers any doctor, hospital etc. I am lucky that I can afford that expense.
Johno
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by Johno »

I haven't ever read this Mr. Money Moustache thing but my impression is that it can lead some people to borderline crazy or at least definitely eccentric spending behavior. Being a miser is better than being a spendthrift but neither is desirable IMO. Maybe it's based on own personal experience (isn't everyone influenced by this idiosyncratic set of facts?) but I see no reason for people making six figure incomes to live like paupers, unless they're pretty sure the relatively high income is a short lived fluke. Probably better to just avoid (real, by normal people's standards) spending excesses, and focus more mental energy on making more money, not spending less money. That worked for us. We started out with a reasonable American middle class not crazily frugal lifestyle, starting making more and more, spent only moderately more, and achieved financial independence fairly smoothly. There's a lot more upside in income out there in the world to focus your brain on, in the long run, than there is from penny pinching. Again just an anecdotal free observation, FWIW. :D
mtnlover
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by mtnlover »

Two thoughts

You've said she is your fiancee, not your wife. Her money is hers to spend as she chooses. She's not buying a Maserati. Butt out.

Living below your means is wonderful and admirable and will serve you well in the future. Becoming a miser - well, it's the root of the word miserable!
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PaddyMac
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by PaddyMac »

Skipped over previous replies. We're not unlike your situation; we earn similar money, spend similarly, and also save a lot. The rest is there to enjoy. You work hard no doubt.

Stop reading Mr Mustache and other mega-frugal sites, they are making you miserable. Remove the bookmark. I tried reading it once, and it turned me off. I don't want to watch every penny and I'm not afraid to spend money on stuff if it brings me happiness.

As for your fiancee: Let her buy the car she wants and do NOT make her feel guilty about what she wants to spend. She is being reasonable.

As for eating out: next time you want to be a miser, tell her that you don't want to eat out "because you want to cook her a nice meal and have a quiet evening in". Then clean up as well. Nothing says love like cooking AND cleaning up...
kaneohe
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by kaneohe »

http://www.beliefnet.com/Inspiration/Ar ... tion.aspx#

Perhaps in addition to having a written IPS http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investme ... _statement , you need a LTJPS (living the journey). :happy It's probably not easy to change so a reminder might be useful.
an_asker
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by an_asker »

PaddyMac wrote:Skipped over previous replies. We're not unlike your situation; we earn similar money, spend similarly, and also save a lot. The rest is there to enjoy. You work hard no doubt.

Stop reading Mr Mustache and other mega-frugal sites, they are making you miserable. Remove the bookmark. I tried reading it once, and it turned me off. I don't want to watch every penny and I'm not afraid to spend money on stuff if it brings me happiness.

As for your fiancee: Let her buy the car she wants and do NOT make her feel guilty about what she wants to spend. She is being reasonable.

As for eating out: next time you want to be a miser, tell her that you don't want to eat out "because you want to cook her a nice meal and have a quiet evening in". Then clean up as well. Nothing says love like cooking AND cleaning up...
I didn't read all the replies either. Cannot compare my situation with y'alls. Suffice it to say that I am probably somewhere in the bottom 10 percent of Bogleheads. That said, yes, sometimes I feel like being among the Bogleheads and feel like I should step back from the saving craze. For that, I have added cruisecritic and ricksteves to my bookmark in addition to bogleheads. Keeps me well balanced. Of course, folks who go for multiple cruises every year and/or take multiple vacations in Europe every year cannot be matched (by me) either! :oops:
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prudent
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by prudent »

Keep in mind that when reading the "frugal sites", you are reading the combined efforts of what many, many different people are doing. No one is doing ALL of them. You're always going to see something that you're not doing. And frugality has diminishing returns also. Don't focus on that extra dollar. Look at what you are doing in the big picture - 35% savings! That's fantastic.

I feel having a budget is a good way to maintain a balance. Once you establish a budget, you have given yourself permission to spend the money that you budgeted for and not feel guilty about it. If you decide you need to save more, then adjust your budget. But don't attempt to save more by scrutinizing every expenditure. You could drive yourself nuts that way. "Do we really need to buy a shovel? I could watch craigslist for a while to see if someone has one for sale." If it's in the budget, you've given yourself permission to spend that money.
heyyou
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by heyyou »

Because I don't compare myself with others, there is no sense of a dilemma of frugality or life, there is just my choice of life with less spending than others with the same income as mine. There are millions of people happily living on spending the same as I do. The only difference is my amount of spending is a choice instead of the upper limit of my income.

Bogle wrote about having enough. Enough for me happened to be less than my total income because I wanted to retire early. I had to stay 30 years to get retiree health care, so I stayed that long plus a month.
angelescrest
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Re: How do you balance frugality and life?

Post by angelescrest »

Op, I just read your post, and now I'm comparing myself with you. Now I'm jealous, and wish I had what you had, could save how much you save, and live the life that you live. But I don't feel guilty--not about how much I save or about feeling jealous.
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