Interview question...salary

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investingdad
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Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

I have not interviewed in close to ten years ago so I wanted to bounce this of the board.

I'm currently employed but looking at some options. I interviewed with a company that I'm not terribly high on but it could be an option. Anyway, I had a phone screen with the hiring manager and it went well. I then had an in-person interview with the hiring manager and it also went well. The final step is a panel interview and I'm one of two candidates.

So here's where I took a step back. The in person interview revealed some things that gave me pause. No reason to detail those things out, but they pertained to bigger picture.

So up to this point there's been no indication of salary range. They also have not asked about my expectations. The in person interview, however, has led me to suspect they cannot meet my current salary let alone offer an increase. The HR person left two messages for me and I replied by email to the hiring manager requesting a salary range as well as thanking them for the continued interest. I then received an email from the HR person to set up the final interview while my other email has gone unanswered. I plan to reply to the HR person with the same request on salary range.

To burn a second full day with them, in my mind, requires at least an idea of what they expect to pay. As an engineer earning over 100k, I'm now at a point in my career where simply landing a job is behind me. I want to know expectations before investing more time face to face with them.

If they get annoyed and tell me to buzz of, that's fine.

With that all said am I being unreasonable? Thoughts?
Makaveli
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by Makaveli »

Unreasonable? No. Working for company is a two way street. You need to be a nice fit for them, and they need to be a nice fit for you. I would not want to work for a company that is withholding information from the get go. I say one more email to HR before stepping back from the table.
livesoft
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by livesoft »

I'm laughing because HR is thinking you are withholding information from them.
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investingdad
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

livesoft wrote:I'm laughing because HR is thinking you are withholding information from them.
Withholding salary info? They have not asked.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by ieee488 »

investingdad wrote:With that all said am I being unreasonable? Thoughts?
No, you are not being unreasonable.

You know what you want. Why waste your time on something that has no potential of meeting your wants?
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by adamthesmythe »

It sounds like you would be hesitant to accept even if they offered a decent increase. If so it's time to be honest and give them a salary number that you would at least consider. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time.
leonard
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by leonard »

Usually, the company broaches the topic of salary first - so I think they will think it's odd you are pushing it.

If you don't think you will like the job - I'd view the second interview day as a networking opportunity. While the current job may or may not workout - it can't hurt to make some new connections. They may have other positions come open and keep you on their mind as a possible candidate.

Then, if they make the offer, you can ask for the salary you want. If they say "No" you will not be put out and you gained some new connections in the industry. Doesn't seem like much downside to me.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by mlipps »

leonard wrote:Usually, the company broaches the topic of salary first - so I think they will think it's odd you are pushing it.

If you don't think you will like the job - I'd view the second interview day as a networking opportunity. While the current job may or may not workout - it can't hurt to make some new connections. They may have other positions come open and keep you on their mind as a possible candidate.

Then, if they make the offer, you can ask for the salary you want. If they say "No" you will not be put out and you gained some new connections in the industry. Doesn't seem like much downside to me.
This sounds great, but considering how tricky it is to get off work last minute for a job interview, it's hard to imagine networking as a worthwhile use of your time. Maybe if the interview were in the evening or on the weekend...
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BolderBoy
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by BolderBoy »

I've never cared what "the salary range" is. I know what I want (total package) for what they want done and they either offer that or not. Sometimes I am paid less than they were willing, sometimes more. But in any event if there isn't a meeting of the minds then it wasn't a good fit.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by davidsorensen32 »

Its a tricky balance. If I were you I'd go through with it without salary in mind remembering it may not work out at the end because of salary mismatch. But you'll hopefully make a good impression and people have long memories in the industry. Managers often have a band and they do their best to get the top guy for the job.
investingdad wrote:I have not interviewed in close to ten years ago so I wanted to bounce this of the board.

I'm currently employed but looking at some options. I interviewed with a company that I'm not terribly high on but it could be an option. Anyway, I had a phone screen with the hiring manager and it went well. I then had an in-person interview with the hiring manager and it also went well. The final step is a panel interview and I'm one of two candidates.

So here's where I took a step back. The in person interview revealed some things that gave me pause. No reason to detail those things out, but they pertained to bigger picture.

So up to this point there's been no indication of salary range. They also have not asked about my expectations. The in person interview, however, has led me to suspect they cannot meet my current salary let alone offer an increase. The HR person left two messages for me and I replied by email to the hiring manager requesting a salary range as well as thanking them for the continued interest. I then received an email from the HR person to set up the final interview while my other email has gone unanswered. I plan to reply to the HR person with the same request on salary range.

To burn a second full day with them, in my mind, requires at least an idea of what they expect to pay. As an engineer earning over 100k, I'm now at a point in my career where simply landing a job is behind me. I want to know expectations before investing more time face to face with them.

If they get annoyed and tell me to buzz of, that's fine.

With that all said am I being unreasonable? Thoughts?
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investingdad
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

adamthesmythe wrote:It sounds like you would be hesitant to accept even if they offered a decent increase. If so it's time to be honest and give them a salary number that you would at least consider. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time.
Yes, this is how I was looking at it.

I think rather than asking for a range, my better bet would be simply to tell them my expectation of range and allow them to respond.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by lthenderson »

Perhaps they are hesitant to give you the salary range over the phone or via email without meeting you in person and giving you the whole story. Case in point:

I was unhappy with my engineering job and was looking to move to somewhere else. I had a couple good phone interviews with a company and then they arranged for an onsite interview. During that on site interview, they finally told me the salary they would offer which was quite a bit lower than what I was making. They also informed me that they were an employee owned company and I would be one of about 50 owners. They put money for us in an ESOP plan every year and it was a significant amount of money. The first year they put nearly 50% of my salary in the retirement plant, by year three they almost doubled my salary in the retirement plan and by year 10, they were putting seven or eight times my salary into the plan, all in company stock. Because that company continued to grow exponentially and buy other companies, the stock averaged about 32% increases every year I worked there. Had I refused to go there for because their salary was low and not heard them out, I would still be slaving away at my job somewhere. Instead I heard them out, took the job and retired ten years later at age 39.

You've invested some time with them but I would at least hear them out. You just never know.
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investingdad
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

lthenderson wrote:Perhaps they are hesitant to give you the salary range over the phone or via email without meeting you in person and giving you the whole story. Case in point:

I was unhappy with my engineering job and was looking to move to somewhere else. I had a couple good phone interviews with a company and then they arranged for an onsite interview. During that on site interview, they finally told me the salary they would offer which was quite a bit lower than what I was making. They also informed me that they were an employee owned company and I would be one of about 50 owners. They put money for us in an ESOP plan every year and it was a significant amount of money. The first year they put nearly 50% of my salary in the retirement plant, by year three they almost doubled my salary in the retirement plan and by year 10, they were putting seven or eight times my salary into the plan, all in company stock. Because that company continued to grow exponentially and buy other companies, the stock averaged about 32% increases every year I worked there. Had I refused to go there for because their salary was low and not heard them out, I would still be slaving away at my job somewhere. Instead I heard them out, took the job and retired ten years later at age 39.

You've invested some time with them but I would at least hear them out. You just never know.
Well, I've already been there in person once and this would be for the second time. It was during my first in-person interview that I began to have serious doubts about levels of compensation they could offer. The initial phone screen didn't reveal a lot. I asked a lot of questions around their financials, how the business is structured, etc. By doing a headcount on the number of people employed there (it's not real big), roughing out margins on sales, etc...I just cannot come up with how they could justify meeting what I'm looking for.

And as others have alluded to above, I think to make sure one party isn't wasting the time of the other, it may be for the best to just put the cards on the table and let each party decide whether to invest more time or not.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

If you're not willing to burn another day, you shouldn't be interviewing in the first place. The interview process on you end involves learning as much as you can about what the perspective job entails and make yourself look like a fit for what they want. The last step is compensation. That is where you can negotiate. If they are way low, then simply state that they are far below your requirement. Some HR people have no clue how to determine salary range. My HR has a range for my job that puts me way above their maximum. Funny thing is that I took a $70k reduction to come here with the promise that I would make it up in a couple of years with enormous raises. My raises? Zero. Companies lie. I am literally doing the work that 3 engineers formerly did and even at that, I could go home at noon and still get all my work done.
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investingdad
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:If you're not willing to burn another day, you shouldn't be interviewing in the first place. The interview process on you end involves learning as much as you can about what the perspective job entails and make yourself look like a fit for what they want. The last step is compensation. That is where you can negotiate. If they are way low, then simply state that they are far below your requirement. Some HR people have no clue how to determine salary range. My HR has a range for my job that puts me way above their maximum. Funny thing is that I took a $70k reduction to come here with the promise that I would make it up in a couple of years with enormous raises. My raises? Zero. Companies lie. I am literally doing the work that 3 engineers formerly did and even at that, I could go home at noon and still get all my work done.
That stinks. I heard promises like that at my first employer by my boss at the time. When the following year rolled around he "didn't remember" making any statements like that. Lied right to my face. It wasn't long after that when I decided to leave. I learned then to get things in writing.

To your post, yep...did those things for the first meeting with them. Lots of due diligence on my part. The tricky part was that, because they're not publicly traded, I couldn't get the financial information I wanted. I did during the interview, though. And that's what set off the warning flag that we may be worlds apart. I don't want to waste their time, which is why I thought it may be best to bring this up now.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by Zecht »

In general you are at your strongest in negotiating power when you have an offer on the table. In some cases they may have already burned their bridge with other candidates and tend to be more heavily motivated to acquiesce to your requests. Keep in mind you want to really have a strong understanding of the total compensation being offered and, ideally, schedule some time to sit down with the hiring manager (not the HR rep) to discuss the offer whenever possible.

Keep in mind that there is always more to compensation than salary, I for example would be unlikely to change jobs with a modestly higher salary if I lost two weeks vacation for it. YMMV obviously, but you probably want to get the offer so you can negotiate from a position of strength, and since you are a more seasoned engineer, you aren't going to be easily replaced by a new graduate.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by FuyuKei »

Makaveli1988 wrote:Unreasonable? No. Working for company is a two way street. You need to be a nice fit for them, and they need to be a nice fit for you. I would not want to work for a company that is withholding information from the get go. I say one more email to HR before stepping back from the table.
+1 to this. They should at the very least acknowledge your email, even if it's to say to discuss it in person.

I also agree you should try to talk to the hiring manager, who has more interest in getting you on board than the HR department and is less likely to ignore you. I can't even always get the HR dept to answer me where I am currently working.

I've always felt I had more negotiation power over my salary in person so I prefer discussing it in person anyways vs. over the phone. This is the time when you have the most power to negotiate, right before you accept the job. Your first interview probably told you their expectations, so now you have time to research with websites like Glassdoor, that can back up your asking price from them. I like to print this info out and bring it with me, the visual and looking prepared has always worked in my favor. Take control of what you want to get paid.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by XtremeSki2001 »

FuyuKei wrote:
Makaveli1988 wrote:Unreasonable? No. Working for company is a two way street. You need to be a nice fit for them, and they need to be a nice fit for you. I would not want to work for a company that is withholding information from the get go. I say one more email to HR before stepping back from the table.
+1 to this. They should at the very least acknowledge your email, even if it's to say to discuss it in person.

I also agree you should try to talk to the hiring manager, who has more interest in getting you on board than the HR department and is less likely to ignore you. I can't even always get the HR dept to answer me where I am currently working.

I've always felt I had more negotiation power over my salary in person so I prefer discussing it in person anyways vs. over the phone. This is the time when you have the most power to negotiate, right before you accept the job. Your first interview probably told you their expectations, so now you have time to research with websites like Glassdoor, that can back up your asking price from them. I like to print this info out and bring it with me, the visual and looking prepared has always worked in my favor. Take control of what you want to get paid.
+1

You're in the final rounds - there should at least be a range established. Sounds like you already have a bad taste in your mouth. Go with your gut.
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Re: Interview question...salary

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investingdad wrote:To burn a second full day with them, in my mind, requires at least an idea of what they expect to pay. As an engineer earning over 100k, I'm now at a point in my career where simply landing a job is behind me. I want to know expectations before investing more time face to face with them.
First, I agree with most of your post. Your career point allows you to be picky as you are not interviewing for 30k jobs that are clear 30k jobs. However, a major point I will make (that is too late in this instance) is that I personally _never_ go into conversations or interviews of this level without knowing at least a range or target (by the company and myself), and that it meets my usual minimum to be interested and or switch jobs. For this exact dilemma reason. I have been down a rabbit hole or two only to be disappointed. Now, I am in tech sales, and typically there is a recruiter involved that makes it a bit easier to sniff out and qualify these bits up front, but the principle should be used always. Too much risk and time suck in job hunting.
Jack FFR1846 wrote:If you're not willing to burn another day, you shouldn't be interviewing in the first place. The interview process on you end involves learning as much as you can about what the perspective job entails and make yourself look like a fit for what they want. The last step is compensation. That is where you can negotiate. If they are way low, then simply state that they are far below your requirement. Some HR people have no clue how to determine salary range. My HR has a range for my job that puts me way above their maximum. Funny thing is that I took a $70k reduction to come here with the promise that I would make it up in a couple of years with enormous raises. My raises? Zero. Companies lie. I am literally doing the work that 3 engineers formerly did and even at that, I could go home at noon and still get all my work done.
+1 based on what you've written, sounds like you shouldn't be advancing with this company anyway. They could offer you 20% more than you make, or 20% less. Would you take the job in either scenario? Sounds like no. So then why continue? If that is the case, make one more email to the HR person asking for a call to discuss pay, to qualify this, or walk away.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by leonard »

mlipps wrote:
leonard wrote:Usually, the company broaches the topic of salary first - so I think they will think it's odd you are pushing it.

If you don't think you will like the job - I'd view the second interview day as a networking opportunity. While the current job may or may not workout - it can't hurt to make some new connections. They may have other positions come open and keep you on their mind as a possible candidate.

Then, if they make the offer, you can ask for the salary you want. If they say "No" you will not be put out and you gained some new connections in the industry. Doesn't seem like much downside to me.
This sounds great, but considering how tricky it is to get off work last minute for a job interview, it's hard to imagine networking as a worthwhile use of your time. Maybe if the interview were in the evening or on the weekend...
No where in the OP's posting says the second interview was "last minute". And, when interviewing, applicants should expect at least 2 rounds of interviews - a third being possible. So, simply not seeing where a second day of interviews would catch anyone off guard.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by Bfwolf »

OP, I think you are right to be concerned. I wouldn't go back if they didn't acknowledge the email I had sent and provide some information on salary.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by batpot »

Waste another day.
It's good practice for the next one, if nothing else.
You can always say no; if you make a strong impression, maybe they'll counter.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

batpot wrote:Waste another day.
It's good practice for the next one, if nothing else.
You can always say no; if you make a strong impression, maybe they'll counter.
Except it's a vacation day I'd need to burn. Which means I'm being picky and choosy before just going off interviewing. Only if I think it's something I'm really interested in will I invest the time. At a future date when I'm let go from my current employer I may be more inclined to do as you suggest. But for now, I'd rather spend my time wisely and that of the interviewers. If it's not looking like the right fit, no point going on with it.

I think you have to balance the promise of ongoing security with the reality of jumping into something for the sake of jumping and not thinking it through and coming to realize later it was a mistake.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by McCharley »

It'll be a vacation day well spent. :beer

Interviewing at pathetic companies is one of the best ways to make your current job (or unemployment) seem better.

It is best to leave the salary to the end. If they really want you they'll figure it out -- they'll not be able to get anyone comparable for much less.

Trust me on this: there is often considerable leeway in salary, and there is nothing better than previous salary for determining salary going forward.

Good luck! :sharebeer
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by ClevrChico »

In engineering/tech we get bombarded with job propositions all the time.

If the recruiter is doing little more than a cold call, I make sure I know the salary range up front before investing any time. Recruiters are fine doing this as they don't want to waste their time either. The same goes for in house company recruiters too. Some HR staff won't discuss salary up front, so better to pass on them. :-)

You're in the final running, so it's common for salary to wait until the second or third interview. My guess is they're going to pay at least market, so it's not even an issue to discuss.

There's a local Fortune 50 I've probably wasted a week of vacation interviewing at over the years, and we've never made a connection. Good experience and at least one bullet dodged.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by triggerfish10 »

Sounds like you already have a bad taste in your mouth. Go with your gut.
Maybe he should go with his mouth?
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by Ted Valentine »

As I gain more experience I find this dance or game of poker you are discussing a colossal waste of time.

At the next contact with the company, flatly ask them what the salary range is for the position because you need to know before going any further. Lay your cards down.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by investingdad »

As the poster above me suggested, I decided to do just that. I replied back with a salary range that placed my current salary right in the middle.

Nothing. No further follow-up by the company by email or voicemail. I am not surprised and I expected this. Also, I'm 95% sure that I had done the final interview, an offer would have been made. I knew what they wanted and I knew I could have delivered on it, plus I knew what direction the role needed to be taken down the road.

Because the company is privately held, there was no financial information available. I did a lot of DD on them but I could not get any of that until we spoke in person the first time. Walking into their office I felt like I was thrown back in my career to about 10 years ago. Just the feel of things, I knew I was looking at where I've been and not where I wanted to go. And I strongly suspected the salary wasn't going to work, it couldn't.

So really, it came down to this:

- accept the security of [reduced] salary continuity and basically give myself and my career a vote of no-confidence by stepping backwards for the sake of no pay disruptions
- take the risk that when the layoff comes in the next few weeks, I will use it as an opportunity to move my career forward and accept that it may take awhile

I opted for the latter. And when I interview again, I intend to talk that up.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by gunn_show »

Read this before you enter your next interview/negotiation scenario, investingdad
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by ClevrChico »

investingdad wrote:As the poster above me suggested, I decided to do just that. I replied back with a salary range that placed my current salary right in the middle.

Nothing. No further follow-up by the company by email or voicemail. I am not surprised and I expected this. Also, I'm 95% sure that I had done the final interview, an offer would have been made. I knew what they wanted and I knew I could have delivered on it, plus I knew what direction the role needed to be taken down the road.

Because the company is privately held, there was no financial information available. I did a lot of DD on them but I could not get any of that until we spoke in person the first time. Walking into their office I felt like I was thrown back in my career to about 10 years ago. Just the feel of things, I knew I was looking at where I've been and not where I wanted to go. And I strongly suspected the salary wasn't going to work, it couldn't.

So really, it came down to this:

- accept the security of [reduced] salary continuity and basically give myself and my career a vote of no-confidence by stepping backwards for the sake of no pay disruptions
- take the risk that when the layoff comes in the next few weeks, I will use it as an opportunity to move my career forward and accept that it may take awhile

I opted for the latter. And when I interview again, I intend to talk that up.
It's amazing there was no follow-up. Smart move going with your gut. That's a dysfunctional company.
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Re: Interview question...salary

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (employment issues).
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