Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Hey Bogleheads, I'm looking for some insight from people well-versed in leasing real etate.
We are moving into a rental house around the new year, and currently have a signed contract (landlord has signed as well) and security deposit in place. My DW called the landlord to confirm that we were having electricity and gas utilities activated next week, and our landlord asked what we were doing about water/sewage/trash, which led us to discover a great little detail: our landlord had us sign the wrong contract. Apparently they took their apartment contract template instead of the rental home template.
Anyway, I'm trying to fully understand the position we're in, and figured BH would be a good starting point. It seems to me that contractually, everything is set in stone. However, the right thing would be to restart the lease agreement process. Are there any other details or things I should be aware of? I do think this was an honest mistake, but don't want to set us up for any issues down the line.
We are moving into a rental house around the new year, and currently have a signed contract (landlord has signed as well) and security deposit in place. My DW called the landlord to confirm that we were having electricity and gas utilities activated next week, and our landlord asked what we were doing about water/sewage/trash, which led us to discover a great little detail: our landlord had us sign the wrong contract. Apparently they took their apartment contract template instead of the rental home template.
Anyway, I'm trying to fully understand the position we're in, and figured BH would be a good starting point. It seems to me that contractually, everything is set in stone. However, the right thing would be to restart the lease agreement process. Are there any other details or things I should be aware of? I do think this was an honest mistake, but don't want to set us up for any issues down the line.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
What are the issues with the new agreement. Are there any terms that you have a problem with?
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
We would have to understand the differences in terms to offer meaningful advise. It could be that both of you would benefit, or it could be one-sided.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Sorry, I should have clarified that in the original post. The main things that are affected are the services provided. Rent would be unchanged, but in the current contract, lawn care, water, trash, and sewage are all part of the lease agreement. The landlord would remove those responsibilities in the "correct" contract.TRC wrote:What are the issues with the new agreement. Are there any terms that you have a problem with?
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
From the OP's initial post, it sounds like the original contract stated that the landlord was responsible for water, sewer, and trash collection and the tenant was responsible for electricity and gas. This is how many apartment contracts are structured, for what it's worth.
You do have a legally binding agreement on your hands OP, but it's not without issues. You could fight to keep the original contract and get the water, sewer, and trash covered, but this is sure to cause tension with the landlord and they may decide to take it out on you in other ways like taking their time to fix problems and such. If you move in under the original contract, it may be that the landlord will look for ways to get you evicted (heh) and/or not renew the lease when the original contract is up or it may be that there is only some animosity between you. If you can live with that or any situation in between, by all means stick with the original agreement and save some money .
In my opinion, it is not good to start off in a bad relationship with your landlord if it can be avoided. Yes, it will cost you water, sewer, and trash (which you'd have to pay at other rental homes most likely if you backed out of the contract entirely), but there will not be any bad blood, you show them that you are willing to work with them and just maybe they will be more willing to work with you in the future should life happen and you're late on a payment or the heater is out and it's late at night.
In any event, best of luck OP.
You do have a legally binding agreement on your hands OP, but it's not without issues. You could fight to keep the original contract and get the water, sewer, and trash covered, but this is sure to cause tension with the landlord and they may decide to take it out on you in other ways like taking their time to fix problems and such. If you move in under the original contract, it may be that the landlord will look for ways to get you evicted (heh) and/or not renew the lease when the original contract is up or it may be that there is only some animosity between you. If you can live with that or any situation in between, by all means stick with the original agreement and save some money .
In my opinion, it is not good to start off in a bad relationship with your landlord if it can be avoided. Yes, it will cost you water, sewer, and trash (which you'd have to pay at other rental homes most likely if you backed out of the contract entirely), but there will not be any bad blood, you show them that you are willing to work with them and just maybe they will be more willing to work with you in the future should life happen and you're late on a payment or the heater is out and it's late at night.
In any event, best of luck OP.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Did you honestly think the landlord was going to take care of water/sewage/trash? Was this ever discussed before signing the contract? Did you immediately communicate to the landlord that you thought they were taking care of it, and the additional expenses may cause hardship?morbster wrote:My DW called the landlord to confirm that we were having electricity and gas utilities activated next week, and our landlord asked what we were doing about water/sewage/trash, which led us to discover a great little detail: our landlord had us sign the wrong contract.
You haven't moved in yet, right? Paid security deposit? Check cashed? Do you have the keys? Are there any cancellation clauses? Don't know if your contract for an apartment at presumably the home/house address somehow creates grounds for cancellation, but legal stuff is funny sometimes. Also, after you move in, you're a tenant, but just having a signed contract, may give landlord some ways out.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
There will come a time when you want to move out of that property. Would you like to be able to get your security deposit returned without a fight? Remember, some people don't get mad, they get even instead. Since it was an honest mistake, I suggest you should not hold them to the wrong contract.
Jeff
Jeff
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
The goodwill you will create with your new landlord, by doing the correct, house contract with him, will far outweigh the damage you can do if you try to make an issue of it and hold him to the apartment contract.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Thanks for the advice, avidsaver. Our preference is to have a hassle-free relationship with our landlord, so we will likely sign the new contract (maybe requesting to modify some things since it's now open for re-negotiation). I just wanted to make sure we aren't opening ourselves up for some unforeseen consequences.avidsaver wrote:From the OP's initial post, it sounds like the original contract stated that the landlord was responsible for water, sewer, and trash collection and the tenant was responsible for electricity and gas. This is how many apartment contracts are structured, for what it's worth.
You do have a legally binding agreement on your hands OP, but it's not without issues. You could fight to keep the original contract and get the water, sewer, and trash covered, but this is sure to cause tension with the landlord and they may decide to take it out on you in other ways like taking their time to fix problems and such. If you move in under the original contract, it may be that the landlord will look for ways to get you evicted (heh) and/or not renew the lease when the original contract is up or it may be that there is only some animosity between you. If you can live with that or any situation in between, by all means stick with the original agreement and save some money .
In my opinion, it is not good to start off in a bad relationship with your landlord if it can be avoided. Yes, it will cost you water, sewer, and trash (which you'd have to pay at other rental homes most likely if you backed out of the contract entirely), but there will not be any bad blood, you show them that you are willing to work with them and just maybe they will be more willing to work with you in the future should life happen and you're late on a payment or the heater is out and it's late at night.
In any event, best of luck OP.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
One of the larger pains in life is moving. Give your landlord grief now, don't expect him or her to renew the lease. Your preference for "hassle-free" will no doubt be rewarded down the road.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I cover water, sewer, and trash for my rental townhouse. I priced it into the rent. I don't think it's terribly unusual for the landlord to cover that, at least in this area. The primary reason is that the township can put a lien on the house for failure to pay the sewer bill. I don't want to hand over responsibility to the tenant for that.inbox788 wrote: Did you honestly think the landlord was going to take care of water/sewage/trash?
OP- Were there any negotiations on rent and what it covered? What did the stated rent say it included? It appears there was more miscommunication than just the wrong contact.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
From a purely legal standpoint, the contract that was signed earlier may be binding due to landlord's unilateral mistake. But the practical realities of the importance of the ongoing landlord/tenant relationship may render the legality pointless.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
The contract clearly stated what was and wasn't covered, and we discussed a couple areas that we disagreed on (pest infestation, for example, was said to be our responsibility). However, since I currently live overseas, I wasn't able to have any face-to-face discussions with the landlord or tour the house. I was simply using the contractual wording as the basis for my information (which only makes sense).Kosmo wrote:I cover water, sewer, and trash for my rental townhouse. I priced it into the rent. I don't think it's terribly unusual for the landlord to cover that, at least in this area. The primary reason is that the township can put a lien on the house for failure to pay the sewer bill. I don't want to hand over responsibility to the tenant for that.inbox788 wrote: Did you honestly think the landlord was going to take care of water/sewage/trash?
OP- Were there any negotiations on rent and what it covered? What did the stated rent say it included? It appears there was more miscommunication than just the wrong contact.
"Residents shall have the utilities for said premises put into their name within 48 hours of their occupancy, or the beginning of the lease period, whichever time is first. Water, Sewer and Trash are all paid by Lessor. Trash is to be taken to community dumpster weekly."
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I would suggest the new contract includes wording to specify it replaces any previous contracts, and any such contracts are now null and void. Or obtain another form of written agreement signed by you and landlord cancelling the previous contract.morbster wrote:Thanks for the advice, avidsaver. Our preference is to have a hassle-free relationship with our landlord, so we will likely sign the new contract (maybe requesting to modify some things since it's now open for re-negotiation). I just wanted to make sure we aren't opening ourselves up for some unforeseen consequences.avidsaver wrote:From the OP's initial post, it sounds like the original contract stated that the landlord was responsible for water, sewer, and trash collection and the tenant was responsible for electricity and gas. This is how many apartment contracts are structured, for what it's worth.
You do have a legally binding agreement on your hands OP, but it's not without issues. You could fight to keep the original contract and get the water, sewer, and trash covered, but this is sure to cause tension with the landlord and they may decide to take it out on you in other ways like taking their time to fix problems and such. If you move in under the original contract, it may be that the landlord will look for ways to get you evicted (heh) and/or not renew the lease when the original contract is up or it may be that there is only some animosity between you. If you can live with that or any situation in between, by all means stick with the original agreement and save some money .
In my opinion, it is not good to start off in a bad relationship with your landlord if it can be avoided. Yes, it will cost you water, sewer, and trash (which you'd have to pay at other rental homes most likely if you backed out of the contract entirely), but there will not be any bad blood, you show them that you are willing to work with them and just maybe they will be more willing to work with you in the future should life happen and you're late on a payment or the heater is out and it's late at night.
In any event, best of luck OP.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Given this, I would not allow any changes that would cost you money. This wasn't a simple "OK, the rent's x, sign this and we'll get you in", this was a negotiated lease, with you agreeing to the rent based on the terms presented. The landlord has no right, legal or moral, to insist on a change in terms that would have a negative effect on you. If there are some technical things in there that make no sense for a house versus an apartment lease, I would certainly agree to modify those. But I would only take on the additional utilities for their convenience if they compensated you fully for it through a decrease in your rent.morbster wrote:The contract clearly stated what was and wasn't covered, and we discussed a couple areas that we disagreed on (pest infestation, for example, was said to be our responsibility). However, since I currently live overseas, I wasn't able to have any face-to-face discussions with the landlord or tour the house. I was simply using the contractual wording as the basis for my information (which only makes sense).Kosmo wrote:OP- Were there any negotiations on rent and what it covered? What did the stated rent say it included? It appears there was more miscommunication than just the wrong contact.
Furthermore, I seriously doubt any large landlord is going to waste any of their time trying to retaliate against one of their tenants for a "mistake" on the landlord's part.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I agree with Alex.
It would be one thing if you guys had previously discussed that these items would be your responsibility and the contract said otherwise.
But you negotiated in good faith BASED on the contract which said it was the landlord's responsibility. Now the landlord is saying there was a mistake and wants to dump extra costs on you?? You should only do it with a commensurate reduction in rent.
It would be one thing if you guys had previously discussed that these items would be your responsibility and the contract said otherwise.
But you negotiated in good faith BASED on the contract which said it was the landlord's responsibility. Now the landlord is saying there was a mistake and wants to dump extra costs on you?? You should only do it with a commensurate reduction in rent.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
As others have said:
You almost certainly can hold them to it.
And they can hold you to it by refusing to renew your lease when it comes up and by going after every penny of the security deposit, looking for any technical violation of the lease, exercising every right they have to use your unit as a showroom within X months of moving out, etc. That comes with its own calculation for them--how long will it take them to relet, potential reputation damages, etc--but you don't know how that will go.
I'd probably try to meet them halfway with a discount to the rent worth 50% of the cost of this stuff you're going to have to provide (would of course start those negotiations at a higher %) rather than trying to hold them to the contract outright, but at the end of the day, don't know if this is a fight you want to pick.
You almost certainly can hold them to it.
And they can hold you to it by refusing to renew your lease when it comes up and by going after every penny of the security deposit, looking for any technical violation of the lease, exercising every right they have to use your unit as a showroom within X months of moving out, etc. That comes with its own calculation for them--how long will it take them to relet, potential reputation damages, etc--but you don't know how that will go.
I'd probably try to meet them halfway with a discount to the rent worth 50% of the cost of this stuff you're going to have to provide (would of course start those negotiations at a higher %) rather than trying to hold them to the contract outright, but at the end of the day, don't know if this is a fight you want to pick.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I settled a case like this by getting the landlord to immediately return half of the security deposit in return for a small increase in rent to pay for the added costs. The landlord also upgrade two old appliances. (Stove and Fridge) The quite reasonable argument was that he enhanced security deposit was justified by the possibility of unpaid utilities. All parties seemed satisfied
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
You could ask to be released from the contract. Since the landlord isn't satisfied with the terms, they might go for that. You have time to find another place to live.
Water and sewer charges are quite small in my area (I pay about $50 a quarter total as a single person.) Trash pickup costs me about $300 a year for curbside pickup. Since you have to haul your trash somewhere, I assume the charges for that would be less. Lawn care is expensive, unless you plan to do it yourself. Who pays for recycling?
Water and sewer charges are quite small in my area (I pay about $50 a quarter total as a single person.) Trash pickup costs me about $300 a year for curbside pickup. Since you have to haul your trash somewhere, I assume the charges for that would be less. Lawn care is expensive, unless you plan to do it yourself. Who pays for recycling?
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Reminds me of a place I lives eons ago. There was basically no landscaping, but in the autumn, no issues. Winter was frozen over, so late in the spring, we get a notice that we're responsible for "lawncare". We had to look, and lo and behold, on one side of the building, a patch of grass around 6x4 feet was overgrown. We didn't have a lawn mower or gardening equipment, so I forgot how we trimmed that grass. I think we joked about going out there with some scissors, but I think my roommate at the time found someone to take care of it. There were 3 or 4 of us sharing the expenses, so I don't recall how much it was, but it was insignificant. But the lesson learned what is was on the lease and we were responsible for things on the lease, so read the lease and understand what you're agreeing to.lululu wrote:You could ask to be released from the contract. Since the landlord isn't satisfied with the terms, they might go for that. You have time to find another place to live.
Water and sewer charges are quite small in my area (I pay about $50 a quarter total as a single person.) Trash pickup costs me about $300 a year for curbside pickup. Since you have to haul your trash somewhere, I assume the charges for that would be less. Lawn care is expensive, unless you plan to do it yourself. Who pays for recycling?
In this case, I give both OP and landlord the benefit of the doubt, and assume it was truly a misunderstanding. This means that there's probably some give and take on both sides to come to a compromise. What is the rent and dollar amount of the amounts in dispute? Is finding another house an option and how much more or less would that cost?
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I've lived in (I think) nine or ten rental houses over my lifetime, in a variety of areas in the western USA. In every single one but one, the landlord covered water and sewer. I think all but two covered trash. I'd find nothing whatever unusual about it not even being mentioned except in a contract.Kosmo wrote:I cover water, sewer, and trash for my rental townhouse. I priced it into the rent. I don't think it's terribly unusual for the landlord to cover that, at least in this area. The primary reason is that the township can put a lien on the house for failure to pay the sewer bill. I don't want to hand over responsibility to the tenant for that.inbox788 wrote: Did you honestly think the landlord was going to take care of water/sewage/trash?
I agree that it's going to be a balancing act in terms of how hard you want to press things. I'd go back to them and say that you had negotiated in good faith with the terms mentioned in the contract, and if they want you to sign the new contract then you'd want a discount in the rent. Seeing how they handle this disagreement will tell you a lot about how they will handle any issues that come up while you are a tenant, regardless of how it is resolved.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Actually, I think landlords normally like to control the lawn care themselves, so the house looks nice on the exterior even though the tenants may be slobs.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Sign it, and be grateful for a warm bed. Unless you were verbally told that those items were included.BolderBoy wrote:The goodwill you will create with your new landlord, by doing the correct, house contract with him, will far outweigh the damage you can do if you try to make an issue of it and hold him to the apartment contract.
Even educators need education. And some can be hard headed to the point of needing time out.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
If a restaurant announced a change in price of a meal after you ordered it would you be grateful for the hot meal and just pay?rustymutt wrote:Sign it, and be grateful for a warm bed.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
OP, was this term of the contract negotiated between the two parties ? Did you notice and rely on it when signing the contract i.e. did you have an expectation you would not pay for these items. If so, I don't think you need to sign a new contract ethically.
Legally, you are set. However double-check your contract. If the landlord wants to play hardball he may exercise the following provision which is usually put in standard rental clauses. It is, as follows.
I've seem some variations, but it goes like this.
Legally, you are set. However double-check your contract. If the landlord wants to play hardball he may exercise the following provision which is usually put in standard rental clauses. It is, as follows.
I've seem some variations, but it goes like this.
If your contract has a similarly worded clause, or a broader one that allows him to get out of the contract, he may exercise it.If premises cannot be delivered to TENANTS on the agreed date due to loss, total or partial destruction of the premises, or failure of previous TENANTS to vacate, either party may terminate this agreement upon written notice to the other party at their last known address. It is acknowledged that either party shall have no liability to each other except that all sums paid to LANDLORD will be immediately refunded to TENANTS.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
No kidding! Be grateful if they're giving it to you for free, otherwise, get what you pay for.placeholder wrote:If a restaurant announced a change in price of a meal after you ordered it would you be grateful for the hot meal and just pay?rustymutt wrote:Sign it, and be grateful for a warm bed.
OP, I would not resign the lease without some push back. I think it's insane. The landlord screwed up, not you. It is not your responsibility to pay extra as a result. If they really drew a hard line, I might give in, but I would just politely but assertively tell them that you signed the lease already & want to be held to the terms of that contract.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Thanks everyone for the the advice and insight. I always enjoy the discourse that Bogleheads manage to stir up.
To be honest, I didn't negotiate or discuss the terms of the contract nearly as in-depth as I should have, which mainly stems from me not being in a place to conveniently meet with or call the landlord. If anything, this process has taught me that I'll essentially have to walk through the entire contract with the other party to ensure we're on the same page. Most other places I've rented have used a standard template for rental contracts (I think it's required by the state), of which I would be more prone to discussion, since the landlord may not have been responsible for writing the contract. However, this document clearly didn't come from a template, and I (wrongfully) assumed that the landlord was fulling backing its content.
The more I think about it, the more frustrated I become. This means that the landlord signed the contract without reading any of its provisions, which doesn't reflect well on them as a businessperson. However, we're moving to a city with scarce living arrangements (especially at the quality we want), and the landlord seems like a genuinely nice person.
Speaking with my wife about it, I think this is the place we want to be for the immediate future, but we are going to nullify this contract and repeat the process with the correct contract. During this time, I am going to request a deduction in the first month's rent to compensate for unexpected costs. Still not sure what I'll do about the lawn care, which is quite expensive, as another poster mentioned. Maybe I'll ask the landlord to provide the lawnmower and call it good.
To be honest, I didn't negotiate or discuss the terms of the contract nearly as in-depth as I should have, which mainly stems from me not being in a place to conveniently meet with or call the landlord. If anything, this process has taught me that I'll essentially have to walk through the entire contract with the other party to ensure we're on the same page. Most other places I've rented have used a standard template for rental contracts (I think it's required by the state), of which I would be more prone to discussion, since the landlord may not have been responsible for writing the contract. However, this document clearly didn't come from a template, and I (wrongfully) assumed that the landlord was fulling backing its content.
The more I think about it, the more frustrated I become. This means that the landlord signed the contract without reading any of its provisions, which doesn't reflect well on them as a businessperson. However, we're moving to a city with scarce living arrangements (especially at the quality we want), and the landlord seems like a genuinely nice person.
Speaking with my wife about it, I think this is the place we want to be for the immediate future, but we are going to nullify this contract and repeat the process with the correct contract. During this time, I am going to request a deduction in the first month's rent to compensate for unexpected costs. Still not sure what I'll do about the lawn care, which is quite expensive, as another poster mentioned. Maybe I'll ask the landlord to provide the lawnmower and call it good.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
At least let them know that you are willing to negotiate a new contract, but if you can't come to an agreement, you will insist on the terms that both of you already agreed to. This keeps the leverage on your side.morbster wrote:Speaking with my wife about it, I think this is the place we want to be for the immediate future, but we are going to nullify this contract and repeat the process with the correct contract. During this time, I am going to request a deduction in the first month's rent to compensate for unexpected costs. Still not sure what I'll do about the lawn care, which is quite expensive, as another poster mentioned. Maybe I'll ask the landlord to provide the lawnmower and call it good.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Excellent point, Alex. Thanks for mentioning that.Alex Frakt wrote: At least let them know that you are willing to negotiate a new contract, but if you can't come to an agreement, you will insist on the terms that both of you already agreed to. This keeps the leverage on your side.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
If you haven't moved in yet and insist on the more advantageous terms, the landlord could find a way to keep that from happening (such as sorry the place isn't habitable or old tenant didn't move out, etc). You'd have a lot more leverage in any such negotiation if you were already in the unit.
So if you want to negotiate I'd do it with a little finesse... something like you didn't anticipate these other expenses and that they won't fit well into your budget, etc. It's a somewhat risky strategy unless you don't mind looking for another place. Many landlords who do their own management can get pretty hard-headed... it's the nature of the business.
So if you want to negotiate I'd do it with a little finesse... something like you didn't anticipate these other expenses and that they won't fit well into your budget, etc. It's a somewhat risky strategy unless you don't mind looking for another place. Many landlords who do their own management can get pretty hard-headed... it's the nature of the business.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I have a question for those saying the OP should simply accept the landlord's desired changes to the signed contract. What advice would you have given if the facts were the same, but the landlord was asking what to do?
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
These are reasonable expenses traditionally borne by the tenant of a single family home but not the tenant of an apartment. All but the lawn care are probably trivial. It sounds like an honest mistake by the landlord. Be a mensch and sign the new lease.morbster wrote:The main things that are affected are the services provided. Rent would be unchanged, but in the current contract, lawn care, water, trash, and sewage are all part of the lease agreement. The landlord would remove those responsibilities in the "correct" contract.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
If the renter had made a mistake and signed a contract that they didn't intend do you the the landlord would be a "mensch" about it?Zabar wrote:It sounds like an honest mistake by the landlord. Be a mensch and sign the new lease.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
If you decide to insist on going with the terms in the contract, make sure what your lease/ state laws state about rent increase during lease term.
Most apartment leases have a clause to increase rents during lease term if needed(again depends on state laws).Usually 30 day or 60 day notice
The landlord ending up with negative cash flow would meet legal cause, i believe.
Most apartment leases have a clause to increase rents during lease term if needed(again depends on state laws).Usually 30 day or 60 day notice
The landlord ending up with negative cash flow would meet legal cause, i believe.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I think the contract should be what the landlord, the tenants, and general practice in the area would normally expect. In this case that would be the new lease and not the one mistakenly signed. In any case the right thing to do is tear up the mistake and sign a new lease. Leasing a property is not supposed to be an exercise in one party trying to outfox the other party, especially about transparent items such as trying to con one party or the other into paying for water and garbage when that is not how it is done.Alex Frakt wrote:I have a question for those saying the OP should simply accept the landlord's desired changes to the signed contract. What advice would you have given if the facts were the same, but the landlord was asking what to do?
In any case creating bad blood between tenants and landlords is a lose-lose game that both parties will regret.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I don't see any indication that the OP tricked the landlord in any fashion but rather negotiated in good faith based on the proposed contract:
So the landlord made the mistake and ethically should stand by what was presented and signed and not go back and chisel the renter.I wasn't able to have any face-to-face discussions with the landlord or tour the house. I was simply using the contractual wording as the basis for my information (which only makes sense)
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I don't know whether the landlord would, but I definitely think that the landlord should. As a good human being in any profession or trade, you should be asking yourself, "What is the right thing to do here?" not "Can I get away with this legally?"placeholder wrote:If the renter had made a mistake and signed a contract that they didn't intend do you the the landlord would be a "mensch" about it?Zabar wrote:It sounds like an honest mistake by the landlord. Be a mensch and sign the new lease.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
That ship has already sailed. The landlord has already created the bad blood. The question is how the tenant deals with it.dbr wrote:In any case creating bad blood between tenants and landlords is a lose-lose game that both parties will regret.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
It's been a long time since I rented, but that's astonishing. I would never since something that obligated me to unknown increases in price.kksmom wrote:If you decide to insist on going with the terms in the contract, make sure what your lease/ state laws state about rent increase during lease term.
Most apartment leases have a clause to increase rents during lease term if needed(again depends on state laws).Usually 30 day or 60 day notice
The landlord ending up with negative cash flow would meet legal cause, i believe.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I wouldn't blame landlord without knowing more. There is poor communications, and either landlord or renter or both could be responsible. It's irresponsible for both landlord AND renter to leave such things unexplored before even signing contracts. Somewhere along the line, there was or should have been a discussion about other utilities and expenses. No reasonable renter or landlord would leave such details open. If there were any differences between what was discussed and what was in the contract, someone should have alerted the other party and differences squared before signing. The errors and misunderstandings in this transaction should be learning opportunities for future dealings. A lot of common sense would have avoided this situation in the first place. Where was due diligence?Epsilon Delta wrote:That ship has already sailed. The landlord has already created the bad blood. The question is how the tenant deals with it.dbr wrote:In any case creating bad blood between tenants and landlords is a lose-lose game that both parties will regret.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
What miscommunication or irresponsibility was there on the part of the OP (the prospective tenant)? The OP read the lease, negotiated the terms he had issues with, and both parties signed. It's absolutely not the tenant's responsibility to try to guess whether the landlord used the right form or to research who customarily pays which utilities in that area.inbox788 wrote:I wouldn't blame landlord without knowing more. There is poor communications, and either landlord or renter or both could be responsible. It's irresponsible for both landlord AND renter to leave such things unexplored before even signing contracts. Somewhere along the line, there was or should have been a discussion about other utilities and expenses. No reasonable renter or landlord would leave such details open. If there were any differences between what was discussed and what was in the contract, someone should have alerted the other party and differences squared before signing. The errors and misunderstandings in this transaction should be learning opportunities for future dealings. A lot of common sense would have avoided this situation in the first place. Where was due diligence?Epsilon Delta wrote:That ship has already sailed. The landlord has already created the bad blood. The question is how the tenant deals with it.dbr wrote:In any case creating bad blood between tenants and landlords is a lose-lose game that both parties will regret.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I don't know that I would say that these are all so commonly the tenant's responsibility that there is a "correct" contract. I've been a renter in quite a few houses and have never paid trash, only once paid water/sewer, and all but one time been responsible for lawn care, so it is a mixed bag. I'm sure others have similarly different experiences. I'd be concerned that the landlord has gotten relaxed about this enough that they didn't check over the lease they were signing. I'd expect a bit of a discount on rent (maybe even one time) as a sign of good faith on the part of the landlord. I wouldn't necessarily try to split the costs 50-50, especially depending on how close this is to a going rate (and you mention this being a tight market), but I'd expect a concession from the landlord in response to your willingness to pick up unexpected ongoing costs.Zabar wrote:These are reasonable expenses traditionally borne by the tenant of a single family home but not the tenant of an apartment. All but the lawn care are probably trivial. It sounds like an honest mistake by the landlord. Be a mensch and sign the new lease.morbster wrote:The main things that are affected are the services provided. Rent would be unchanged, but in the current contract, lawn care, water, trash, and sewage are all part of the lease agreement. The landlord would remove those responsibilities in the "correct" contract.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Have you ever leased an apartment? Did you have a discussion and conversations before even talking about paperwork and signatures? Or did you just ask for the lease and sign it? I don't know about you, but the questions as to who pays utilities is generally handled when I first inquire about a lease. For me, the purpose of the contract, any contract, is to confirm these previous discussions, not define them. The terms of the contract shouldn't be a surprise to either party, but the number of contract disputes shows how often it fails, but in a vast amount of times, it works out. Helps when both sides understand what they're signing up to, and seldom does that really come from reading the contract. In this particular case, I don't hear the landlord promising one thing and putting something else in the contract (something sleazy salesmen do). The lack of any discussion is a failure of both parties, IMO. My best interpenetration of this situation is that both landlord and tenant are both naive and inexperienced, otherwise I'd have to conclude one is trying to take unfair advantage of the other.Alex Frakt wrote:What miscommunication or irresponsibility was there on the part of the OP (the prospective tenant)? The OP read the lease, negotiated the terms he had issues with, and both parties signed. It's absolutely not the tenant's responsibility to try to guess whether the landlord used the right form or to research who customarily pays which utilities in that area.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I wonder if the landlord would suggest an entirely new contract if the signed contract was in the landlord's favor rather than the tennant's.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
I have rented all my life, and in every case, I saw the apartment and discussed the lease directly with the apartment manager. The OP has negotiated his contract from his foreign location, thus saving money on a trip and search. I would compare the savings from not having a trip to the additional cost of rent. If the cost of rent is too high, I would cancel the lease, move to the area, live in temporary housing, and restart the search. In January-February, very few people move, and the cost of rent will be much lower.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
If it is a rental house, there likely is no community dumpster like there would be in an apartment complex. This should have been a tip off that you were not signing the correct contract IMO.morbster wrote:The contract clearly stated what was and wasn't covered, and we discussed a couple areas that we disagreed on (pest infestation, for example, was said to be our responsibility). However, since I currently live overseas, I wasn't able to have any face-to-face discussions with the landlord or tour the house. I was simply using the contractual wording as the basis for my information (which only makes sense).Kosmo wrote:I cover water, sewer, and trash for my rental townhouse. I priced it into the rent. I don't think it's terribly unusual for the landlord to cover that, at least in this area. The primary reason is that the township can put a lien on the house for failure to pay the sewer bill. I don't want to hand over responsibility to the tenant for that.inbox788 wrote: Did you honestly think the landlord was going to take care of water/sewage/trash?
OP- Were there any negotiations on rent and what it covered? What did the stated rent say it included? It appears there was more miscommunication than just the wrong contact.
"Residents shall have the utilities for said premises put into their name within 48 hours of their occupancy, or the beginning of the lease period, whichever time is first. Water, Sewer and Trash are all paid by Lessor. Trash is to be taken to community dumpster weekly."
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Not necessarily many cities have dumpsters even for single family housing areas.cherijoh wrote:If it is a rental house, there likely is no community dumpster like there would be in an apartment complex. This should have been a tip off that you were not signing the correct contract IMO.
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Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
When I lease an apartment I ask for the lease, read it, negotiate the objectionable parts and sign the amended lease. Prior discussion with the landlord is worth the paper it's printed on. It's a waste of time to discuss details without a draft contract and a red pen. When I've come to an oral agreement I've still had to keep amending the contract produced by the landlord to get the agreed terms in writing. Sometimes they don't even get the address right.inbox788 wrote: Have you ever leased an apartment? Did you have a discussion and conversations before even talking about paperwork and signatures? Or did you just ask for the lease and sign it?
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
Whenever I rented an apartment (never rented a house), one of my first question was about utilities - which would be covered and which would not be covered. This happened way before I even saw the contract, let alone sign it. And more often than not, these items are specified in the advertisement for the apartment as well. I find it hard to believe that prior to the lease being signed, utility cost items were not provided by the landlord and were not requested by OP as well.
That said, if both parties failed to discuss these items verbally, I would vote with most here who have said, i.e., OP should try to renegotiate. This in spite of the fact that had I been in a similar situation, I would probably have gone with what Zabar says.
That said, if both parties failed to discuss these items verbally, I would vote with most here who have said, i.e., OP should try to renegotiate. This in spite of the fact that had I been in a similar situation, I would probably have gone with what Zabar says.
Re: Landlord wants us to sign an entirely new contract!
You must be a lawyer. Do you ask about washer/dryer vs laundry room and location? Parking spaces and location? I'd say that's another common important discussion item. Lease probably says less about these things than you'd like.Epsilon Delta wrote:When I lease an apartment I ask for the lease, read it, negotiate the objectionable parts and sign the amended lease. Prior discussion with the landlord is worth the paper it's printed on. It's a waste of time to discuss details without a draft contract and a red pen. When I've come to an oral agreement I've still had to keep amending the contract produced by the landlord to get the agreed terms in writing. Sometimes they don't even get the address right.inbox788 wrote: Have you ever leased an apartment? Did you have a discussion and conversations before even talking about paperwork and signatures? Or did you just ask for the lease and sign it?
I'm guessing/hoping you're in the minority here. I just don't see landlords freely handing out leases without a discussion or tenants not talking to potential landlords. If I was a landlord, I would make it a point to make clear what I was providing and paying for and what the tenant was responsible for. So even if you didn't ask, I'd tell you the what I'd consider the major points, which are the items being discussed here. And as a tenant, I'd ask about them as well, and I would expect this starts with the first conversation when screen potential rentals.