Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
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wannabeeBH
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Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by wannabeeBH »

I've been looking at Apple Pay and Google Wallet, and wondering why I'd want to use them. I use credit cards for 1) convenience of not having to carry cash and change 2) the rewards points 3) the extended warranty and 4) importing the monthly statements into quicken.

So what do I gain? It's a little convenient not to have to carry extra cards, but this isn't a big win. Google Wallet is nice in that it stores loyalty cards. Although they don't usually scan off the phone's screen, requiring them to be keyed in. Google wallet sends me an email receipt, which is nice. They're both less susceptible to fraud, but that's a big picture problem and I'm a little guy.

But what do I lose? With Google Wallet tap-and-pay, it seems to act like cash. I don't get rewards points. And presumably, I wouldn't get the AMEX extended warranty protection either.

With Apple Pay, I'd get rewards points. I couldn't find information about the warranties for cards used with Apple Pay.

Overall, I WANT these systems to work for me, but Google Wallet especially is a huge net loss. Am I missing something?
nordlead
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by nordlead »

You get reward points with google Wallet. Just whatever rate you get for the category wallet gets billed as. So rotating category cards will only ever get the base rate.

I'm not sure if amex will honor extended warranties or not. You could call and ask or read the amex benefits rules.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by BrandonBogle »

At least with AmEx, Apple Pay transactions are treated just as regular swipe transactions and early the same rewards and protections. I haven't checked if this is true with the other FIs, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this indeed was the case.
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Leif
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by Leif »

Welcome Wannabee.

I don't think there is much difference. Except for security. The person does not get to see your credit card so someone in line cannot photo your card to later use on the internet. The finger print reader should secure the phone. It is suppose to also work with Apple watch stand-alone (no phone necessary) so I don't know how that is secured. The vendor does not have your card number so these 10,000,000 stolen card numbers we are always hearing about should not have an impact on an Apple Pay user.

I'm wondering how is works in restaurants? Same thing with the chip & pin cards. In Europe the waiter comes up to the table with a device which you enter your card and pin. How about Apple Pay? Will they bring a device to your table to make the transaction? I've not heard anything on that.
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tfb
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by tfb »

nordlead wrote:You get reward points with google Wallet. Just whatever rate you get for the category wallet gets billed as. So rotating category cards will only ever get the base rate.
I believe Google Wallet passes through the merchant category to your card. So rotating category cards will get the bonus if the card decides to honor it. In this thread people reported purchase at McDonald's showed up as fast food and purchase at Wawa showed up as gas station.

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1272204/
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Cosmo
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by Cosmo »

Yes, you are missing something huge. Security of your transactions. Much more secure than the present 20 year old+ technology. You can debate all you want over the additional convenience it offers or whether it saves more time but the fact of the matter is NFC transactions are coming whether you want them or not and the technology is sorely needed. It sounds like most of the major banks are on board and although It may take a few years, it is a matter of time when all the retailers follow.
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Drain
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by Drain »

Apple's version, at least, is more secure and a little more convenient than using your credit card. I've never used Google Wallet, but based on the descriptions I've read, it sounds like the convenience aspect may not be there...but I'm guessing that will change.

Regarding the convenience of Apple Pay, think about it. You don't have to do anything other than put your phone near a console and let your fingerprint be scanned. That's pretty much all one motion. You don't have to wait for the cashier to do anything, and (eventually in all cases) you don't have to sign anything. This slight benefit means that you get the added security at no cost, or even at negative cost. And one day, maybe your wallet can be that much thinner for not having to hold credit cards. For that matter, it's not difficult to imagine an app like Passbook making one's entire wallet obsolete one day (but not anytime soon).
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crg11
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by crg11 »

There is a couple things Apple Pay gains you:

Every transaction is used with a one time "token" instead of your actual credit card number that is tied to your individual device. I witnessed this yesterday when I tried out Apple Pay for the first time, the last 4 digits of the credit card number on my receipt was not my actual credit card number. This means if the merchant is hacked, your actual credit card number is not exposed and the hack can be traced directly back to the compromised merchant with ease. If your iPhone is stolen, you can just invalidate the device's version of your credit card without affecting your actual credit card, blocking any future transactions attempted by that iPhone.

The transaction is also encrypted, unlike magnetic strips on today's credit cards, which likely would prevent most of the credit card breaches you hear in the news. Another hurdle for hackers.

Then there is an actual identity verify step, much like what Chip+PIN does, but simpler. By utilizing TouchID (fingerprint sensor) on your iPhone to verify each transaction, there is a very likely chance that you are who you say you are. This drastically cuts down on fraud for both you and the credit card company. No one can just pick up your iPhone and buy something with it, they would have to go through a lot of trouble to fabricate a fake fingerprint that might fool TouchID. in fact, the credit card companies and banks believe in this so much, they are charging a smaller transaction fee when Apple Pay is being used.

And it's simple. No fumbling through a bunch of different menus to use. Simply raise the iPhone to the NFC scanner, put your finger on the TouchID sensor, and done. A few seconds later, you receive a push notification with the transaction details (company, $, etc). A receipt prints out just like normal. And you move on.

I tried it yesterday for the first time and was amazed. It is so simple and immediately just feels more secure. I didn't have to sign anything, since TouchID took care of that. This is really going to revolutionize paying in person and via apps that support it. The best part is NFC is more or less a standard (granted not widely deployed yet): if there is a NFC scanner installed then Apple Pay, Google Wallet (or other NFC compatible payment methods) just work.
nordlead
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by nordlead »

tfb wrote:
nordlead wrote:You get reward points with google Wallet. Just whatever rate you get for the category wallet gets billed as. So rotating category cards will only ever get the base rate.
I believe Google Wallet passes through the merchant category to your card. So rotating category cards will get the bonus if the card decides to honor it. In this thread people reported purchase at McDonald's showed up as fast food and purchase at Wawa showed up as gas station.

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1272204/
hmm... I played with google wallet a tiny bit but didn't notice that. Maybe I'll have to give it another try. I abandoned it because I thought I wouldn't get the category based bonuses.

EDIT: If you read further down the thread linked, it seems that at that time only Citi had the category passed through. I'm going to test it out with my Amex and Chase cards.
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wannabeeBH
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by wannabeeBH »

I should look at Google Wallet again, as I didn't realize you could tap and pay with a credit card from the wallet at the store. I thought you had to pay with the wallet cash. That wallet cash costs 2.9% to source from a credit card.
takeshi
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by takeshi »

nordlead wrote:You get reward points with google Wallet.
https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2688794?hl=en
nordlead
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Post by nordlead »

takeshi wrote:
nordlead wrote:You get reward points with google Wallet.
https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2688794?hl=en
Link You Provided wrote:You may not earn certain reward points and benefits for purchases....

Rewards and benefits, if applicable, will be decided by your card's issuer. Your card's issuer (not Google Wallet or The Bancorp Bank) determines and is responsible for whether rewards points or other benefits apply to these purchases.

...
This agrees with what I said. CERTAIN reward points may not be granted, but you will get reward points for the category billed which may be the base rate (say 1% on a 5% rotating categories card).
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ejvyas
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by ejvyas »

also - the touch id is useless for some..like me who have bad fingerprints :annoyed
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wannabeeBH
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by wannabeeBH »

There is 1) Google Wallet - The Debit Card, and 2) Google Wallet The Tap and Pay Credit Card Multiplexer. I had conflated the two above. For reference, it cost 2.9% to load up the debit card balance with a credit card, but it is free to load it from a bank account. And the debit card is a physical card that lets you spend down the balance from your Google Wallet "cash." The tap and pay system can pay from either the wallet cash or any of the credit cards in your Google Wallet. AFAICT, the physical card cannot make payments from the credit cards in the wallet. Google wallet looks like a nice system, but couldn't they have presented this more clearly? Apple does a better job explaining Apple Pay.

I spent some time today looking for gas pumps north of Boston that would take either Google Wallet or Apple Pay. I went to 10 stations. Only one had a NFC reader, but it couldn't read either Google Wallet or Apple Pay. Ditto for Stop and Shop and Market Basket.

So, the big takeaway seems to be that both are convenient. Rewards points should still be issued, but perhaps at a lower rate. And the whole thing is moot anyway because only fast food restaurants and convenience stores have readers.
paulsiu
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by paulsiu »

I looked into this recently before Apple pay came out. It's not difficult to pay using a credit card. One draw is that it's cool and neat to pay using your phone, but that's hardly a reason to use it. My thought is if it offers additional features. For example Apple Pay promises to be more secure, a good thing with all of the data theft in the news.

The downside is that there are a lot of competing firms fighting over a tiny slice of pie.

Apple Pay - Apple seemed to have done their homework and signed up a decent number of financial firms. I liked the token based security and supposedly Apple don't keep track of your purchases. The finger print reader + NFC seems more convenient than passcode + NFC. One issue is that the number of NFC enabled terminals are still not that popular. Sure, Walgreen and McDonald has them, but I don't see them at Supermarket or department stores like Target.

Google Wallet - the pioneer that never seems to get anywhere. Google has to fight carriers who block their google Wallet. You may notice that the tap and pay only works with Android 4.4 Kitkat or later for this reason. To use tap and pay, I believe you have to enter a pin.

Softcard - formerly known as ISIS before the name change due to the terrorist group. This is backed by the carriers AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile, which is why the carriers block google wallet. Softcard only supports a few banks, and the interface is clunky, so it's not all that great in my opinion.

MCX or Current C - another digital wallet backed by stores. Their agenda is to reduce swipe fees pay to your credit card company by linking the digital wallet to your bank account. It's not out until 2015. The idea is that it generates a QR Code that can be read by the barcode scanner, which means it will work with most cash registers.

Loop - a kickstarter funded product that uses an induction loop to simulate a credit card swipe. It comes as either a iphone case or a keychain fob. The technology is intriguing because it should work everywhere, but simulating credit card hardly make it secure. This won't work if you want to use your own case. The keychain Fob stores only one card.

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crg11
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by crg11 »

Leif wrote:It is suppose to also work with Apple watch stand-alone (no phone necessary) so I don't know how that is secured.
Supposedly you have to unlock the Apple Watch when you first put it on. Once that is done, the Apple Watch senses whether it is still on your wrist and will automatically lock if it is taken off. This is using the sensor on the back that senses skin contact (measuring your heart rate and other health stats). Since it knows you haven't taken it off since you unlocked it, it can be used for Apple Pay without any other authentication.

Actually a rather genius and very simple way to ensure security.
nordlead
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Post by nordlead »

well, I tried to use Google Wallet with my Amex at the grocery store to get 3% off and it was a failure.

Not because of Google Wallet, but because I picked the one lane that had a broken NFC reader (confirmed with a tap-to-pay card). I've used tap-to-pay there before just to play with it, so I know the store has it enabled. And this is part of the reason why it won't take off for a while. If an NFC reader breaks, no one knows, no one cares. If the magstrip reader breaks, they know right away and get it fixed.

I'm going to try again next time I'm at the store, and I'm going to make sure the NFC reader lights are on before I enter the checkout line. We'll see if Google passes on the category information to Amex eventually :D
nordlead
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by nordlead »

Leif wrote:I'm wondering how is works in restaurants? Same thing with the chip & pin cards. In Europe the waiter comes up to the table with a device which you enter your card and pin. How about Apple Pay? Will they bring a device to your table to make the transaction? I've not heard anything on that.
Well, they are using chip & sign in the US for the next 5 years or so, so probably nothing will change at restaurants. Because of this, they probably won't accept Apple Pay or Google Wallet (or equivalent). Maybe in 2020 :P
Silence Dogood
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by Silence Dogood »

crg11 wrote:There is a couple things Apple Pay gains you:

Every transaction is used with a one time "token" instead of your actual credit card number that is tied to your individual device. I witnessed this yesterday when I tried out Apple Pay for the first time, the last 4 digits of the credit card number on my receipt was not my actual credit card number. This means if the merchant is hacked, your actual credit card number is not exposed and the hack can be traced directly back to the compromised merchant with ease. If your iPhone is stolen, you can just invalidate the device's version of your credit card without affecting your actual credit card, blocking any future transactions attempted by that iPhone.

The transaction is also encrypted, unlike magnetic strips on today's credit cards, which likely would prevent most of the credit card breaches you hear in the news. Another hurdle for hackers.

Then there is an actual identity verify step, much like what Chip+PIN does, but simpler. By utilizing TouchID (fingerprint sensor) on your iPhone to verify each transaction, there is a very likely chance that you are who you say you are. This drastically cuts down on fraud for both you and the credit card company. No one can just pick up your iPhone and buy something with it, they would have to go through a lot of trouble to fabricate a fake fingerprint that might fool TouchID. in fact, the credit card companies and banks believe in this so much, they are charging a smaller transaction fee when Apple Pay is being used.

And it's simple. No fumbling through a bunch of different menus to use. Simply raise the iPhone to the NFC scanner, put your finger on the TouchID sensor, and done. A few seconds later, you receive a push notification with the transaction details (company, $, etc). A receipt prints out just like normal. And you move on.

I tried it yesterday for the first time and was amazed. It is so simple and immediately just feels more secure. I didn't have to sign anything, since TouchID took care of that. This is really going to revolutionize paying in person and via apps that support it. The best part is NFC is more or less a standard (granted not widely deployed yet): if there is a NFC scanner installed then Apple Pay, Google Wallet (or other NFC compatible payment methods) just work.
How much of this applies to Google Wallet?

I know obviously that it is lacking TouchID but what about the other features (tokens and encrypted transactions)?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by BrandonBogle »

Google Wallet has encryption, but not tokens -- your actual card number is shared, just over encryption. Thus, a data breach at the vendor still exposes your card number just as it does today. With Apple Pay, this number is useless and doesn't require changing your card (but I expect that until NFC usage has been largely prevalent, issuers will still replace them anyway).
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Leif
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Post by Leif »

Even if Google lead the way, it really is clever to Apple to come out with this. As you read 10,000,000 here 10,000,00 there credit cards stolen the Visa and Mastercards must be sweating bullets. Apple Pay supports more iphone sales, iphone sales support more use of Apple Pay and NFC terminals. Since credit card companies are mandating chip cards (or you take the fraud liability) merchants don't have much choice. It is a classic push and pull scenario.
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Leif
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Post by Leif »

crg11 wrote: Supposedly you have to unlock the Apple Watch when you first put it on. Once that is done, the Apple Watch senses whether it is still on your wrist and will automatically lock if it is taken off. This is using the sensor on the back that senses skin contact (measuring your heart rate and other health stats). Since it knows you haven't taken it off since you unlocked it, it can be used for Apple Pay without any other authentication.

Actually a rather genius and very simple way to ensure security.
Thanks for that info.

I might get it as a toy (albeit an expensive one), but I don't really see Apple watch taking off. It will be a hassle to charge the watch every day or two. Plus, unlock a watch? Given it does not have a figure print reader I guess somehow you will need to enter a code. Seems like a too much trouble for a watch.
nordlead
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Post by nordlead »

Silence Dogood wrote:How much of this applies to Google Wallet?

I know obviously that it is lacking TouchID but what about the other features (tokens and encrypted transactions)?
Google Wallet pretty much did all of Apple Pay first except the touch ID. The only difference in security is a thumb print vs a pin. There is always a possibility either company has a bug in their software, but the odds are pretty low.

Here are the big differences (besides Touch ID) between Apple Pay and Google Wallet. Google also has a bunch of other options (like loyalty cards, and gift cards) that may be useful.

1) Google records every transaction and keeps a receipt in your wallet account, Apple doesn't keep this information
2) Google never passes on the merchant name, but might pass on the category, an old year old post indicated this only works on Citi cards, I'm trying to test if they updated this to work with Amex and Chase. Apple passes everything through to the bank so you'd never know you paid with Apple Pay.
3) Google provides fraud protection for any unauthorized purchase made with Wallet, I couldn't find any such claim with Apple. Not a big deal for Apple though, as you can't store $ in your Apple Pay account, unlike with Google Wallet.
BrandonBogle wrote:Google Wallet has encryption, but not tokens -- your actual card number is shared, just over encryption.
Not true. Google has always used virtual cards. So, if the virtual card number is stolen it doesn't matter. Even then, not only would there have to be a data breach, they would have to decrypt the data, which makes it significantly harder than stealing magstrip information, which is what is happening today. EDIT: I should also add that Google uses dynamic verification, so even if they manage to steal the virtual card number and use it real quick, they wouldn't be able to pass dynamic verification.
https://www.google.com/wallet/faq.html
From Google wrote: Are my credit and debit card numbers passed to the merchant?
Google will not pass full details of your credit and debit card numbers to merchants in the U.S. We only pass the last 4 digits. For your security, we generate a virtual card which is passed to the merchant.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by BrandonBogle »

nordlead wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote:Google Wallet has encryption, but not tokens -- your actual card number is shared, just over encryption.
Not true. Google has always used virtual cards. So, if the virtual card number is stolen it doesn't matter. Even then, not only would there have to be a data breach, they would have to decrypt the data, which makes it significantly harder than stealing magstrip information, which is what is happening today. EDIT: I should also add that Google uses dynamic verification, so even if they manage to steal the virtual card number and use it real quick, they wouldn't be able to pass dynamic verification.
https://www.google.com/wallet/faq.html
From Google wrote: Are my credit and debit card numbers passed to the merchant?
Google will not pass full details of your credit and debit card numbers to merchants in the U.S. We only pass the last 4 digits. For your security, we generate a virtual card which is passed to the merchant.
I thought that was only for the secure element version of Google Wallet that the carriers blocked, and not for the "workaround" app version of Google Wallet instead. That said, I would be more than happy to be wrong on this! :)
kd2008
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Post by kd2008 »

Be aware of spending limits. Google wallet has them. I do not know of Apple pay.
furwut
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Post by furwut »

I believe in the near future merchants will begin swapping out their terminals for new ones that will work with the chip enhanced credit cards. They will be encouraged to do this because the major banks will stop accepting liability for fraudulent purchases made with cards using just the magnetic strip. A customer not only has to swipe but also enter a PIN.

At that point using ApplePay becomes slightly more convenient than using a card. People always have their phone with them - and often always in their hand! Add a $20 bill and their ID (the iPhone also holds all your medical cards) and the rest of the wallet can stay at home.

ApplePay at the subway fare gates would be cool!
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BrandonBogle
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Post by BrandonBogle »

Furwat, sadly, the October 2015 mandate is for any type of EMV, so many financial institutions are rolling with chip and sign cards, not chip and pin. A step forward, but a difference to keep in mind (I think 2020 is the deadline for chip and pin). But I completely agree with you that this is providing the impetus for vendors to get NFC readers as most EMV readers have NFC ability built-in (opinion, not fact, but I would be surprised if it was otherwise).
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tuningfork
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Post by tuningfork »

One difference between Google Wallet and Apple Pay (as I understand it, I have used neither) is that to use Google Wallet, you first must wakeup and unlock your phone, then tap, then enter your Google Wallet pin. That's two pins to enter, as well as a swipe or button press or whatever to initially wake up the phone before you can unlock it. With Apple Pay, you just tap then touch the fingerprint reader. The tap wakes up the phone if it's asleep. Google really needs to change it so NFC can be used without unlocking the phone. Then the convenience factor becomes more tolerable.
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BrandonBogle
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Post by BrandonBogle »

One thing I have noticed (and please let me know if somehow I overlooked it), is there is no way to turn off the NFC chip on the iPhone. In my work Blackberry, I have the option of turning it off. Personally, I am not concerned, but I am sure the privacy concerned would prefer a way to deactivate it if they choose not to use it (or activate only as-needed). As it stands right now, the NFC chip is always available and can be interrogated by a NFC reader.
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FelixTheCat
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by FelixTheCat »

I used Apple Pay at Subway to test it out. The software is very easy to use: Have phone near credit card machine and touch the fingerprint icon.

The good news is I will always have a sandwich. :D
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FedGuy
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by FedGuy »

tuningfork wrote:One difference between Google Wallet and Apple Pay (as I understand it, I have used neither) is that to use Google Wallet, you first must wakeup and unlock your phone, then tap, then enter your Google Wallet pin. That's two pins to enter, as well as a swipe or button press or whatever to initially wake up the phone before you can unlock it. With Apple Pay, you just tap then touch the fingerprint reader. The tap wakes up the phone if it's asleep. Google really needs to change it so NFC can be used without unlocking the phone. Then the convenience factor becomes more tolerable.
I agree that entering two pins is a bit much, but I'd prefer to enter at least one. Fingerprint sensors are not hugely secure, and I know from experience with my loyalty card app that entering a pin in my phone as I approach check-out isn't an inconvenience.
leod
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by leod »

I recently updated to a new iphone and loved the touch id, very simple and it works everytime. i can now set a very long pass code and lock immediately. Have tried buying apps and it is simple touch to pay. Have not tried it in the store yet. I use google wallet once in a while but i prefer apple implementation. I also dont want google recording all my purchases.

Apple also assume some fraud liabilities so this is still unknown, i would prefer the CC company if i have a choice
Silence Dogood
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by Silence Dogood »

tuningfork wrote:One difference between Google Wallet and Apple Pay (as I understand it, I have used neither) is that to use Google Wallet, you first must wakeup and unlock your phone, then tap, then enter your Google Wallet pin. That's two pins to enter, as well as a swipe or button press or whatever to initially wake up the phone before you can unlock it. With Apple Pay, you just tap then touch the fingerprint reader. The tap wakes up the phone if it's asleep. Google really needs to change it so NFC can be used without unlocking the phone. Then the convenience factor becomes more tolerable.
Is this something that can be fixed with a software update?

If so, I'm guessing Google will do so sooner rather than later now that they are competing with Apple Pay.
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JamesSFO
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Post by JamesSFO »

I've found so far that (a) none of the cards I prefer to use are supported by Apple Pay and (b) none of the stores I visit have NFC readers (yet). I'm sure this will change over time, but so far Apple Pay has been a big 0 (in Week 1).

I am more excited about the potential for restaurant dining where Open Table is enabling Apple Pay to go so you don't need to wait for your check, you just go to the Open Table app and pay online.
Sidney
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Post by Sidney »

JamesSFO wrote:I am more excited about the potential for restaurant dining where Open Table is enabling Apple Pay to go so you don't need to wait for your check, you just go to the Open Table app and pay online.
Is that in the works? That would be of real value.

As for normal retail, I can pop a card out of my wallet almost as fast as I can raise up my phone. The seconds of difference aren't going to change my life.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
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Drain
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by Drain »

Sidney wrote:As for normal retail, I can pop a card out of my wallet almost as fast as I can raise up my phone.
1. Yes, but wouldn't it be nice not to have to carry the wallet at all, or at least not the credit cards?
2. You are forgetting that, in many cases, you also have to wait for the cashier to do something, and then you have to sign.
3. There is also the matter of security.
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Sidney
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Post by Sidney »

Drain wrote:
Sidney wrote:As for normal retail, I can pop a card out of my wallet almost as fast as I can raise up my phone.
1. Yes, but wouldn't it be nice not to have to carry the wallet at all, or at least not the credit cards?
2. You are forgetting that, in many cases, you also have to wait for the cashier to do something, and then you have to sign.
3. There is also the matter of security.
You are correct, I am thinking ahead toward Chip and PIN. Notwithstanding the statements about 2020, I think they will be forced to move quicker.

I can't imagine not having my wallet and having a couple of cards in it isn't really a burden and I often leave home without my phone (I'm over 50 :P )

I haven't done any analysis but I would guess that we sign very infrequently (usually restaurants). Grocery store is totally unattended checkout. Gas too. Other retail is usually less than the $50 threshold that most places use for signature requirements. For me, it isn't that big a deal yet.

I do think the systems will take hold. It may take a while. I also wish something was afoot also in the check processing world to eliminate checks. Probably not in my lifetime though.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
furwut
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by furwut »

I can't imagine not having my wallet and having a couple of cards in it isn't really a burden ...
Isn't that the truth about most of technology :happy
Today we don't see what the big deal is. 5 years from now we can't imagine not having it!

From the news articles I've read Apple's timing in releasing ApplePay appears to be superb. Many retailers, stung by breaches in their systems, have finally committed to upgraded their terminals to handle credit cards with improved security measures. As a side benefit these terminals will also have the NFC feature needed for ApplePay and others.

Paying by credit care will become slightly more inconvenient while paying by your phone easier. If ApplePay also intertwines store loyalty cards in the mix then it becomes very attractive to me. I hate having to fish those things out at every market in order to get the sale price.
FedGuy
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by FedGuy »

furwut wrote:
If ApplePay also intertwines store loyalty cards in the mix then it becomes very attractive to me. I hate having to fish those things out at every market in order to get the sale price.
There's an app called "Key Ring" that stores digital images of your various loyalty cards. Most scanners can't actually read what's on the screen of your phone, which is annoying, but it's very helpful to have every loyalty card I have stored in a single app on my phone. I fire it up as I'm approaching the register, show the phone to the cashier, he or she punches my number in, and off I go.
cantabtim
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by cantabtim »

The London underground (tube) allows you instead of using the NFC enabled card/ticket you purchase from their vending machines ("Oystercard", works the same way as "CharlieCard" in Boston, or "ClipperCard" in San Francisco) to skip the middle-man and pass through the fare gates using your regular bank card. In the UK all seem to have NFC.

Riding the system a few weeks ago I saw posters warning patrons to beware of "card clash" Apparently if you wave a wallet containing more than one NFC card over the sensor as you enter you could be charged multiple times for the same journey.

Is this likely to happen with any NFC transaction? How near is the "Near" in NFC?
crg11
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by crg11 »

My local Home Depot now has NFC equipped credit card terminals. Tried Apple Pay today on them and it worked slick. That's how I will pay there now, after their credit card breach.
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JamesSFO
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by JamesSFO »

Sidney wrote:
JamesSFO wrote:I am more excited about the potential for restaurant dining where Open Table is enabling Apple Pay to go so you don't need to wait for your check, you just go to the Open Table app and pay online.
Is that in the works? That would be of real value.
Yes, it is already launched with a subset of Open Table restaurants with Apple Pay and coming to more. It will be awesome as it rolls out further, no need to wait for waiter to bring check, then to take the check, then bring back the card, etc. Just pay and go.
Sidney wrote: As for normal retail, I can pop a card out of my wallet almost as fast as I can raise up my phone. The seconds of difference aren't going to change my life.
Tend to agree.
js2012
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by js2012 »

If I'm close to another register, can I accidentally pay for someone else's purchase with my iPhone? Does anyone know how this would work with refunds since there isn't a paper copy?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by BrandonBogle »

NFC goes only inches/centimeters. For instance, an NFC chip at waist level cannot reach a reader at eye level for instance. Together in a wallet, yes there could be a dual read. One register the next, nope.
paulsiu
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by paulsiu »

There are a couple of factors here.

Convenience
Swiping a credit card is not hard, so paying by phone should be just as easy or easier. Here Apple Pay seems to win out. You hold the phone next to the reader, which then display the default card, which you can touch the fingerprint scanner to pay. Google Wallet is more involved and require you to unlock your phone, select the google wallet app, enter the pin and the hold it against the reader. Softcard is similar. CurrentC is not out so I have no information on how it works. Loop pay works by holding the FOB against the credit card reader.

Security
Supposedly Apple pay is more seGcure than credit card because it uses a one-time token to handle your transaction. The idea is that even if hacker steal your token, it won't be useful. Google wallet, Softcard, CurrentC all appear to use tokenization. Loop Pay emulates your credit card, so it is only as secure as your credit card.

Since all of them use credit card as a pass through, they all have credit card protection. Google wallet also offer in addition 24/7 fraud protection monitor. It's not clear what CurrentC offers.

One poster ask about NFC. In the case of android, NFC appears to work only when the phone is unlock. This mean you cannot hack the phone if it's in locked mode. However, this does decrease usability, since you must unlock the screen to use it.

Privacy Issue
One of the selling point of Apple Pay is that they don't collect any data about you. Google does. I am not sure about softcard. CurrentC, based on an article, seems to target health related data, which sound kinda creepy.

Paul
nordlead
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by nordlead »

js2012 wrote:If I'm close to another register, can I accidentally pay for someone else's purchase with my iPhone? Does anyone know how this would work with refunds since there isn't a paper copy?
Sure, but you could with a tap-to-pay CC which you probably already have (especially if you have a MasterCard). Again, tap-to-pay has been around for over 3 years on Android and significantly longer with CC's.

But, the odds are extremely low unless you are prone to flailing your arms about with a payment method in your hand and you like to flail in front of the terminal while they are checking out. So ~0.000000000000000000000000000000000000001% for the average person.

Anyways, for refunds you still get a receipt, you still get a charge on your CC, and you still get statements. Nothing really changed. The only difference, is if you need to present a CC for the return, then you just tap your phone again, or provide the last 4 digits (if that is what they need) and Apple Pay and Google Wallet have FAQs on how to do that.
nordlead
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by nordlead »

Ok, So I said I would test Google Wallet at the grocery store with my Amex. Here was my experience.

I threw the groceries on the conveyor and pulled out my phone (normally I would pull out my wallet at this point). I turned it on, unlocked the phone, and tapped it against the NFC reader. I didn't have to type the Wallet Pin, since I had logged into wallet when I entered the store to switch CC's to the Amex. The clerk said "cool", I tapped a few buttons on the terminal (to select CC, and that I didn't have my member card since I didn't need it). I got my receipt and left.

All in all, same convenience as my CC, only more secure, as a virtual MasterCard is used for Google Wallet along with tokenization.

I checked on my Amex account and it is billed as Google (as expected) with the category "Business Services - Internet Services". So, you won't get bonus category points if you use Google Wallet with an Amex. EDIT: The payment is "pending" but I doubt the category will change once it officially posts. EDIT 2: It is no longer pending. The description is now GOOGNFC*<storename><location>, but the category is still "Business Services - Internet Services"

So, I'll be using my CC as the grocery store, for bonus store offers, and any bonus points categories, but I'll probably use Google Wallet anywhere I would have normally used my Citi Double Cash Back (2%) card.

Next up, Chase Freedom.
Last edited by nordlead on Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
eschaef
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by eschaef »

I have used Google Wallet for 2 years now. Admittedly, I don't use it all that often because in the beginning many merchants did not have NFC readers that worked. I never built the habit. (Sometimes they would be present but not functioning.) I loaded my credit card information into the wallet. I enter my Wallet pin in order to authorize a transaction. You can set the time-out on this authorization, or manually re-lock your wallet. The charge shows up on my statement as, for example, GOOGNFC*WEGMANS #(Store number) - (town), (state). I receive my full rewards points the same way I would if I used the physical card, I just checked.

Now that I think of it, I should try to use it more often. I like it, and with the introduction of Apple Pay, I'm sure that merchant capability will improve now.
ERISA Stone
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by ERISA Stone »

I didn't see this already posted - several big chains aren't going to use ApplePay. http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart- ... em-2014-10
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telemark
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Re: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, credit, and us

Post by telemark »

I have a transit pass that works with NFC, and that's a huge time saver just when I need it most, running to catch a train. At the checkout counter I don't see much room for improvement. By the time I've stood in line and waited for the cashier to ring up all the items, I usually have my wallet out and ready anyway.

The advantages to Apple and Google are clear enough :)
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