Thoughts on getting out [of job]

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jojay
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:09 am

Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by jojay »

[This post from 2014 has been updated by the OP below in this post- moderator prudent]

All,
I'd appreciate hearing from you on the following. I am unsure if I'm looking for you to reinforce my plan of shoot holes in it. Both are welcome.

At 59, I absolutely hate my job. I am fraught with anxiety and dread ( most of this is in my own mind but psychological counseling has had only minimal benefit). I am not sleeping, am agitated, worry incessantly and want to go. Like a lot of you, I have been working hard for 40 years and have done well by managing my finances in the boggle head style. I no longer want the responsibility of management or leadership and cannot deal with the politics.

In my mind, my 55 year old wife and I have enough in the 401k. By every estimation possible, we have enough to retire comfortably with a likelihood of never running out of money and still leaving inheritances to the kids. She would continue to work at a low paying ( semi-retirement ), part time position in order for us to have health benefits.

I have about $60k in tuition demands over the next 2 years for my 22 and 19 year old children. My 24 year old is out of school but still lives at home. We have about 150k remaining on the mortgage with a conservative home value of 400k.

If I retire at 59 and a half, I would leave my company with about 3 months in vacation accounts. When I joined the company 8 years ago I was thrilled to learn they offered a pension. I have about 5 months of salary in that account. Because it was not part of my financial plan 10 years ago, the pension is a bonus. My plan, once I learned of the pension ( pension contributions halted in 2009) was to retire at 61, take the lump sum ( break even point was age 77 or so ) and live off of it for a year. I am now thinking of moving the time table up to 6 months from now.

I have two small pensions from prior companies which total about 6 months of my current salary and was planning on using them for living expenses through age 62. Again, that time table would be moved up by a couple of years. I do not plan on touching the 401k until age 62 or 63 about when I would file for social security ( I realize the debate this causes but longevity is not a family trademark). This allows that account to grow ( hopefully ) to cover 75% of our needed annual income in retirement with ss filling the balance.

I plan to take all of the equity out of the house in the form of a heloc. This gives me the cushion I need to help cover tuition, emergencies, living expenses and so on. We plan on selling the house in a few years anyway.

So, what this all means is that I want to get out 3 years earlier than planned. If I wait three years, we would absolutely go into retirement with an A++++ financial outlook. Now, we would go with an A- or A financial outlook. Ideally I would get some type of part time position - manual labor is fine - after an extended break to provide some level of income and more importantly to give me something to do.

What is your feedback? After years of careful planning, am I ruining the scenario? The self applied pressures of the job are debilitating. I'm not sure if living each day in misery is worth the ++++ I have been planning for for a long, long time.
Lafder
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by Lafder »

I am sorry for your work distress. Once you quit your job completely, it would likely be hard to go back. I would like to propose some intermediate steps.

Is it possible to cut back to part time?

Is it possible to go on an extended vacation or leave?

Is it possible to get a more rewarding less stressful job, even if it meant less $ it could mean not living on savings yet.

The biggest issue with stopping work is that you are no longer bringing in money to live on, so you will be subtracting from your retirement savings. You are also not contributing to retirement savings.

But, if you have enough money, that is not an issue.

Take a good hard look at your expenses and what you need to live. Look at your wife's income, and what $ do you ave access to in nontaxable accounts. Is there a penalty if you withdraw from any retirement accounts at your age?

A heloc for emergencies might save you in the moment, but then it needs to be paid back and you own less of your house.

I support you making some changes. It will be awful if you stay miserable working full time and then die of an unexpected illness just after you retire.

My husband often says he would like to not have to work. However he knows we would have to greatly change our lifestyle, which he is willing to do. And he would likely "waste" a lot of time on the computer if he wasn't at work. Both he and I say we would like to have so much down time we got bored of it.

I do feel like many of us are tricked into being the worker bees or the worker ants drudging along. I know people who work much less and also spend much less. I like the expression "work to live, don't live to work."

The amount we need to work can be adjusted by the amount we spend to live.

I hope you find some peace!
lafder
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nedsaid
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by nedsaid »

Could you transition to temporary or contract work for maybe 2,3, or 4 years? It would be a compromise between continuing in a job you hate versus retiring cold turkey. Do you have a career where temporary or contract work is possible? If you could do that, it would take strain off your retirement accounts.

What is your asset allocation now? That would make a big difference in advice given.

Also on your home mortgage, be sure and lock in a fixed rate. I would just do a refinance rather than relying on a HELOC. Murphy's law would dictate that interest rates and your payments would go up at the precise wrong time. You would have some fees, but I would like the peace of mind of a low fixed rate. I don't like variable rate home mortgages except for the short term. You might later choose to stay in your home for a longer time than you are planning today.

It does sound to me like you need to leave your job. Sounds to me like it is really getting to you.

Best wishes and good luck.
A fool and his money are good for business.
crake
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by crake »

Hard to answer without more details.

The part that worries me is:
I plan to take all of the equity out of the house in the form of a heloc. This gives me the cushion I need to help cover tuition, emergencies, living expenses and so on. We plan on selling the house in a few years anyway.
If you're retirement outlook is really an A or A- and your wife is continuing to work I'm not sure why it would be necessary to take out a HELOC.

To provide solid answers you really need to provide details on what your annual expenses are and what your assets are including pensions and Social Security. You seem to be compartmentalizing different money from different sources for some reason. Use one pension for 6 months living expenses, vacation account to cover 3 months, another pension to cover 5 months, and then drawing down the 401k at 62.

Cash is fungible. You need to figure out what your annual expenses are, add up all your assets, and than asses if your assets will cover those expenses for the remainder of your life. The general and often refuted rule of thumb is you can live off of 4% of your assets and they probably won't run out over a thirty year retirement. 2-3% is more conservative.
Fallible
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by Fallible »

jojay wrote:All,
I'd appreciate hearing from you on the following. I am unsure if I'm looking for you to reinforce my plan of shoot holes in it. Both are welcome.

At 59, I absolutely hate my job. I am fraught with anxiety and dread ( most of this is in my own mind but psychological counseling has had only minimal benefit). I am not sleeping, am agitated, worry incessantly and want to go. Like a lot of you, I have been working hard for 40 years and have done well by managing my finances in the boggle head style. I no longer want the responsibility of management or leadership and cannot deal with the politics.
...
I don't know what your counselor might have advised, but you really need to get out NOW, before the stress causes serious health problems that could be permanent or require expensive treatment. Right now, nothing else is more important than your health, physical and mental.

Once that is done, consider the suggestions others have made here, but do give yourself time to recover from your current work environment. Health is No. 1.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
drawpoker
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by drawpoker »

One flaw I see in this : What if your wife lost her job. Or her employer decided to cut part-time workers from the group insurance (like Walmart just announced last week).
You are so many years away from Medicare. If something happened and the health insurance available from your wife's job fell through, you would be looking at either paying at COBRA rates or finding something affordable on the ACA exchanges. If your joint income doesn't make you eligible for a subsidy on your state's exchange, take a look at the 2015 market rates as soon as they are posted.
Just to give you an idea of worse case scenarios. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
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cfs
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by cfs »

~ You absolutely hate your job ~

This is the key here "I absolutely hate my job". Wow, what a bad situation. In my opinion you need to leave your employment today, do not wait to suffer from a serious health problem. I do concur with our shipmate Fallible, right now what is important is your physical and mental health.
~ Member of the Active Retired Force since 2014 ~
cherijoh
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by cherijoh »

jojay wrote:All,
I'd appreciate hearing from you on the following. I am unsure if I'm looking for you to reinforce my plan of shoot holes in it. Both are welcome.

At 59, I absolutely hate my job. I am fraught with anxiety and dread ( most of this is in my own mind but psychological counseling has had only minimal benefit). I am not sleeping, am agitated, worry incessantly and want to go. Like a lot of you, I have been working hard for 40 years and have done well by managing my finances in the boggle head style. I no longer want the responsibility of management or leadership and cannot deal with the politics.

In my mind, my 55 year old wife and I have enough in the 401k. By every estimation possible, we have enough to retire comfortably with a likelihood of never running out of money and still leaving inheritances to the kids. She would continue to work at a low paying ( semi-retirement ), part time position in order for us to have health benefits.

I have about $60k in tuition demands over the next 2 years for my 22 and 19 year old children. My 24 year old is out of school but still lives at home. We have about 150k remaining on the mortgage with a conservative home value of 400k.

If I retire at 59 and a half, I would leave my company with about 3 months in vacation accounts. When I joined the company 8 years ago I was thrilled to learn they offered a pension. I have about 5 months of salary in that account. Because it was not part of my financial plan 10 years ago, the pension is a bonus. My plan, once I learned of the pension ( pension contributions halted in 2009) was to retire at 61, take the lump sum ( break even point was age 77 or so ) and live off of it for a year. I am now thinking of moving the time table up to 6 months from now.

I have two small pensions from prior companies which total about 6 months of my current salary and was planning on using them for living expenses through age 62. Again, that time table would be moved up by a couple of years. I do not plan on touching the 401k until age 62 or 63 about when I would file for social security ( I realize the debate this causes but longevity is not a family trademark). This allows that account to grow ( hopefully ) to cover 75% of our needed annual income in retirement with ss filling the balance.

I plan to take all of the equity out of the house in the form of a heloc. This gives me the cushion I need to help cover tuition, emergencies, living expenses and so on. We plan on selling the house in a few years anyway.

So, what this all means is that I want to get out 3 years earlier than planned. If I wait three years, we would absolutely go into retirement with an A++++ financial outlook. Now, we would go with an A- or A financial outlook. Ideally I would get some type of part time position - manual labor is fine - after an extended break to provide some level of income and more importantly to give me something to do.

What is your feedback? After years of careful planning, am I ruining the scenario? The self applied pressures of the job are debilitating. I'm not sure if living each day in misery is worth the ++++ I have been planning for for a long, long time.
I'm total unclear when you talk about your current and previous pensions. Instead of quoting them in terms of months of salary, how many months of retirement expenses will they cover? It doesn't sound like you have enough to bridge the gap between now and age 62 when you will start drawing SS and spending out of your 401k. Also, have you factored taxes into your retirement expenses?

I would be nervous of any plan that required a HELOC in order to be successful. As many people discovered in 2008 and 2009, if there is any kind of future financial crisis, your home value could take a hit and the bank could cut your home equity line of credit. The go-go days of HELOCS are gone - lending standards are considerably tighter than in the past:
Standards for getting a Heloc are much tighter today, McBride said. Most lenders now require borrowers to have FICO credit scores of at least 700, on a scale of 300 to 850, and applicants have to fully document their finances, he said. The Heloc added to the borrower’s primary mortgage typically can’t exceed 80 percent of a home’s value, he said.
source
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

I agree with the HELOC concerns. The best thing would be to create a plan you can carry out, including tuition and the other things you mention, plus a cushion for problems, without it, even if that means curtailing your lifestyle for a while. Better a curtailed lifestyle than a curtailed life.

If, in order to leave your job, which I absolutely agree is the right move given what you've written, you have to borrow against your house, you can reduce risk, and maybe the longer-term average interest rate, by taking a fixed-rate home equity loan rather than line of credit. Then you'll know two things:

1) How much cash you need to pay back each month; and

2) That there can be no revocation due to your, the bank's, or the economy's change of status in later years.

Hope that's helpful. Yes, absolutely, get yourself out of there.

PJW
island
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by island »

May I ask, what do you do for a living and what makes it so hellish?
mwm158
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by mwm158 »

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

island wrote:May I ask, what do you do for a living and what makes it so hellish?
I'm not OP, but my impression from the original post isn't so much that OP's job is kicking puppies, as it is that the work environment is insufferable.
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BL
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by BL »

I would check to see if there is anything that would work at your present place:
transfer to a different job,
part time
sabbatical
consultant

If no possibilities, get out (any way to get unemployment due to health?), and consider other work, any work, when you are ready.

Consider down-sizing right now to save money. Avoid variable interest if you do decide to borrow.
Ask for room and board payment from stay-at-home child.
Have children take out some student loans and/or work part-time. It is to their benefit in so many ways that you stay healthy. Everyone needs to pitch in.
Look for ways to cut down spending.
Maybe take up healthy cooking for a hobby and avoid eating out.
Be sure to get regular exercise and sleep.
Get opinions on pension options here.
LeeMKE
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by LeeMKE »

I would go now or as soon as you can clear your desk.

Health insurance on the ACA is affordable. That was the ONLY reason so many of us had to stay as captured employees too long.

Life is too short to risk shortening it under stress. Once you get a break, you can look into part time work or consulting (if appropriate). If you are taking SS early due to family history, that should override any idea of toughing it out another few years. Get out while you are still walking under your own power because health evaporates under stress.
The mightiest Oak is just a nut who stayed the course.
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DonCamillo
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by DonCamillo »

cfs wrote:~ You absolutely hate your job ~

This is the key here "I absolutely hate my job". Wow, what a bad situation. In my opinion you need to leave your employment today, do not wait to suffer from a serious health problem. I do concur with our shipmate Fallible, right now what is important is your physical and mental health.
I agree that this comes close to an emergency. If you can continue to pay your bills, you need to leave your job. But you should probably look for another, one that you can feel good about, for a few more years.

A close friend was a manager of a bank branch. The bank changed ownership and he was under constant pressure to do things that raised fees for the bank at the expense of the interests of his account holders. He had to retire to keep his sanity and self-respect.
Les vieillards aiment à donner de bons préceptes, pour se consoler de n'être plus en état de donner de mauvais exemples. | (François, duc de La Rochefoucauld, maxim 93)
adamthesmythe
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by adamthesmythe »

No one has mentioned medical leave. If at all warranted it might help, or at least would give some time to think before making an irreversible decision.
Taboose
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by Taboose »

I am in the camp which says "go." I am in a similar situation and went through a year of pretty bad depression over it. I chose to stay for awhile since I knew I wasn't thinking clearly. Now I am. My wife and I recently went over expenses and estimated future expense and I have made the decision to leave my job about a year early. I will go January. The stress and anxiety is simply not worth it if you have the means to leave and it sounds like you do. I have worked since age 10 in some capacity or another and expect to pick up something part time. There is plenty to keep me busy and fulfilled.

Good luck.
technovelist
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by technovelist »

I understand the dilemma. Is there any way you can line up some part time work or work at a lower salary before you take the leap? If not, then I would still do it because mental health is a very valuable asset.
Also doing a job you hate is the pits. :annoyed
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
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tennisplyr
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by tennisplyr »

I would leave. I was in a similar situation 4 years ago and decided to leave. My wife and I are now both retired and things are going well. If you believe you are financially ok you should move on. Sometimes life is not about money. You could always work at something later if you really need to. Good luck and enjoy your life 👍🎂
“Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.” -Retired 13 years 😀
leonard
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Re: Thoughts on getting out

Post by leonard »

What would be the real, REAL repercussions if you:

1. Buffered your calender by 25-30% - reserving email and work time to get work done.
2. Accepted 30% (or 50%) less meetings. Would you really get in trouble for missing anything. probably a third to a half of meetings are a waste of time. What would really happen.
3. Ignore some stuff. I know - everyone's project is personally reviewed and endorsed by the CEO - but the reality is most folks are simply blowing smoke when they take up your time. So, what if you just deprioritized some of it and didn't focus time energy or stress on it.

These actions could free up a bunch of time and make a job manageable. The absolute worse thing they could do is - well - fire you - then you get to start that retirement. But, if you can get in to a comfort zone that gets a reasonable amount of work done without compromising health - why not try it.

Other alternatives;
1. Become a contractor. You control what job you take, the scope of work you will accept, and the rate at which you do that work. You are in control and you will likely make more money than you do now.
2. Move your position to part time. Make a proposal to your boss for a position with some of your current duties as part time.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
cheesepep
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by cheesepep »

Easy decision for me. Quit and find another job. That job can be part-time. To save costs, make the kids pay part of their own tuition. Problem solved.
Lynette
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Lynette »

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basspond
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by basspond »

jojay wrote:In my mind, my 55 year old wife and I have enough in the 401k. By every estimation possible, we have enough to retire comfortably with a likelihood of never running out of money and still leaving inheritances to the kids. She would continue to work at a low paying ( semi-retirement ), part time position in order for us to have health benefits.
Looks like you have done the numbers. Most people I know feel the same apprehension or just want to hang around a little longer to get a little more. Is that worth it? Enjoy retirement!
2stepsbehind
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by 2stepsbehind »

Can you request a demotion due to unspecified family reasons to get you out of the management and leadership responsibilities which you seem to be reacting to? You may find that change enough to improve the situation so that you can last til you qualify for the pension.
flyingaway
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by flyingaway »

Each morning, I also do not want to get up and go to work (I actually do not have to due to the nature of my job). But I do not have a grade A retirement account yet, not even a C grade.

I echo with some previous posters that if you have a grade A retirement account, you should not even think about HELOC. If it were me, I would pay off my mortgage before my retirement, I want to be sure that I always have a roof over my head in retirement.

The way I deal with my work stress is to intentionally reduce my work responsibilities. I no longer care about many things that I used to care about at work.
bluejello
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by bluejello »

In my mind, my 55 year old wife and I have enough in the 401k. By every estimation possible, we have enough to retire comfortably with a likelihood of never running out of money and still leaving inheritances to the kids.
I do not plan on touching the 401k until age 62 or 63 about when I would file for social security ( I realize the debate this causes but longevity is not a family trademark). This allows that account to grow ( hopefully ) to cover 75% of our needed annual income in retirement with ss filling the balance. I plan to take all of the equity out of the house in the form of a heloc. This gives me the cushion I need to help cover tuition, emergencies, living expenses and so on.
Hi OP,

These two statements are at odds with each other. If you need to cross your fingers and hope that your 401k grows to be able to cover 75% of your needed income in retirement, then you do not have enough to retire comfortably "by every estimation possible". And if you need to take out a HELOC to cover expenses between now and age 62, then you definitely don't have enough to retire comfortably.

I'm sorry. I really wish I could tell you to quit tomorrow, but it based on the brief details you've given us of your financial situation, retiring right now really doesn't seem like the prudent thing to do. However, that doesn't mean you just have to grin and bear your situation either. Many posters have given you excellent suggestions — can you cut back your responsibilities at work? Find a less stressful job, even a part-time one? Cut back expenses so as to be able to retire earlier? Ask your children to pitch in for their own education costs and living expenses? (In my humble opinion, people aged 19-24 should be fully fledged anyways).

Best of luck to you. I really hope one or more of these ideas works out for you, because life is too short to be miserable every day.
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Bustoff
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Bustoff »

jojay wrote: At 59, I absolutely hate my job. I am fraught with anxiety and dread ( most of this is in my own mind but psychological counseling has had only minimal benefit). I am not sleeping, am agitated, worry incessantly and want to go.

After years of careful planning, am I ruining the scenario? The self applied pressures of the job are debilitating. I'm not sure if living each day in misery is worth the ++++ I have been planning for for a long, long time.
"After years of careful planning, am I ruining the scenario?"

Given the circumstances you won't be there much longer anyway, right?
So get out of there! The way your living is really bad for you and your wife.

Also, by continuing under this duress, you risk more than your health ... your stress might cause you to react inappropriately in the workplace, causing irreparable harm to your reputation.
Or, consider taking a 3 month leave of absence. If they don't take you back, then consider applying for unemployment benefits.
uncaD
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by uncaD »

Get out now, and do what it takes to make do with what you have. Life is way too short.
MP173
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by MP173 »

Nothing is worth putting your health at risk, but...

1. Three adult children with either college or living at home expenses can be a drain. We have 1 such adult and I cannot image 3. It might be a great idea to sit them down at Thanksgiving and chat.
2 Our goal is to be debt free at retirement. The $150k mortgage would be a concern to me....perhaps not you.
3. The HELOC is something that would also bother me.
4. What is your health insurance situation? Do you have potential benefit thru your wife's employment?

Have you consulted a physician? (as previously suggested)...this might be a key.
moneywise3
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by moneywise3 »

Let me offer some alternate medicine:
1. Were you looking for quick results from therapy? My guess is you did not give it enough time to work.
2. If you hate office politics, just make sure you don't do it. The hate will go away.
3. Make sure you are living a balanced life - healthy eating, exercise, family, charity, socialization, spirituality etc.
Else you can go to a new job or be retired, but the same issues will come back to haunt you.
Thoughts welcome.
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greg24
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by greg24 »

I would quit and roll the dice that your finances will work out.

Which is a better gamble than rolling the dice with your health, which you are doing right now. The job could quite literally kill you.
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Bustoff
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Bustoff »

Fallible
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Fallible »

greg24 wrote:I would quit and roll the dice that your finances will work out.

Which is a better gamble than rolling the dice with your health, which you are doing right now. The job could quite literally kill you.
I don't believe the OP would be rolling the dice with his finances if he gets out now, but it would appear that he certainly is rolling them with his health if he doesn't get out now.

I posted earlier that he should quit now to avoid health problems that could be permanent and very expensive. I would add to that a suggestion that, if he hasn't already, he should have a checkup with his regular medical doctor. Stress is very good at increasing blood pressure, cholesterol levels, etc. Here's a link to the Mayo Clinic for more on the effects of stress:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-livin ... t-20050987
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
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Watty
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Watty »

A good thing to do would be to consider what would happen you ran a bit short of money in retirement.

For many people that live on the edge that could be dire but it should like for you a shortfall would only result in a modest reduction in lifestyle. If that is the case then it is likely not worth the stress to keep working longer.

You might want to post more of your numbers to see how doable it is.

Moving to a less expensive area might be an option too. Even in the same city moving 20 minutes farther out can make a dramatic difference in housing prices.
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jojay
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Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by jojay »

All,

Thank you VERY much for the information, insight and alternatives.
Some topic points:
1. The Heloc is not needed, simply available IF needed. We have emergency money put aside. The heloc would be an extra emergency. The primary resaon for applying now is that I would not qualify if I quit. My wife and I have probably made parenting mistakes ( of love ) and the "kids" are not independent enough. My oldest is slight special needs and I worry about her excessively. Some of the heloc would be there in the event that we may be able to help her out with a home. I know, more over-parenting.
2. Therapy has been going on for a couple of years. It works and then it doesn't. I think the therapy and the therapist work. I simply can''t maintain it. Anxiety, panic, calm - anxiety, panic, calm. I am not in panic mode ( perhaps ) but have convinced myself that I hate just about everything in the job except for the salary.
3. Some great ideas about blowing off some meetings and tasks. You're right.
4. The suggestions on the demotions / lower positions are also something I had not really considered prior to my original post so thanks to all of you for that.
5. Sitting with the kids is a wise idea. Will follow up on that.
6. I am very worried about blowing up at work and doing something where the would call security, an ambulance etc. I have some friends who are watching out for me.
7. Thank you for the reminder of the socialization, spiritualistic and especially the exercise. I use to run long distance but gave it up when I started this gig 7 years ago. Duh. I need to find alternatives to absorb my time.
8. Leave of absence or medical leave was mentioned a couple of times - thanks for that. I looked it up today at the company. There are lots of rules with no guarantee of rehire but what the heck? Good advice.
9. My wife will cover the medical. Not as good as mine but equal dollar for dollar.

Many items mentioned by you all were not noted above but I thoroughly read and digested them. I appreciate the humanity and willingness to help a stranger out.
david99
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by david99 »

I think that if you are feeling this much pain on the job you should try to make some changes. I don't think that you should quit just yet, I think that you should try to find a position with your company that has less responsibility and less stress --- possibly it will pay less but at least you can keep your health insurance and some money coming in for a few more years. Or maybe you can find some contract work or consulting that has fewer hours but keeps some money coming in. Definitely make some changes -- it's not worth sacrificing your health over this. Also don't forget about other important factors such as exercise, eating a healthy diet, and having some fun--- these can all help alleviate stress and anxiety.
leonard
Posts: 5993
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by leonard »

jojay wrote:All,

Thank you VERY much for the information, insight and alternatives.
Some topic points:
1. The Heloc is not needed, simply available IF needed. We have emergency money put aside. The heloc would be an extra emergency. The primary resaon for applying now is that I would not qualify if I quit. My wife and I have probably made parenting mistakes ( of love ) and the "kids" are not independent enough. My oldest is slight special needs and I worry about her excessively. Some of the heloc would be there in the event that we may be able to help her out with a home. I know, more over-parenting.
2. Therapy has been going on for a couple of years. It works and then it doesn't. I think the therapy and the therapist work. I simply can''t maintain it. Anxiety, panic, calm - anxiety, panic, calm. I am not in panic mode ( perhaps ) but have convinced myself that I hate just about everything in the job except for the salary.
3. Some great ideas about blowing off some meetings and tasks. You're right.
4. The suggestions on the demotions / lower positions are also something I had not really considered prior to my original post so thanks to all of you for that.
5. Sitting with the kids is a wise idea. Will follow up on that.
6. I am very worried about blowing up at work and doing something where the would call security, an ambulance etc. I have some friends who are watching out for me.
7. Thank you for the reminder of the socialization, spiritualistic and especially the exercise. I use to run long distance but gave it up when I started this gig 7 years ago. Duh. I need to find alternatives to absorb my time.
8. Leave of absence or medical leave was mentioned a couple of times - thanks for that. I looked it up today at the company. There are lots of rules with no guarantee of rehire but what the heck? Good advice.
9. My wife will cover the medical. Not as good as mine but equal dollar for dollar.

Many items mentioned by you all were not noted above but I thoroughly read and digested them. I appreciate the humanity and willingness to help a stranger out.
I'll give you one other suggestion that took me a long time for me personally to come to terms with as a consultant. Consultants IMO deal with similar issues as you have - not much real ownership of the plans or the goals, doing what other people want done (even if you think it's a horrible idea and completely disagree: frustrating!), and dealing with unreasonable client(boss) expectations that can't be met - at least a good portion of the time.

I found I needed to adjust my expectations in order to be happy with the situation and not get very frustrated. Some projects were very bad - but my expectations made it worse.

So, I set my frame of reference as follows:

As long as they don't ask me to work more than X hours per week, I'll do whatever they want (obviously within reason). Where X is the number of hours you want to work. Then, simply do what's asked and try not to have an opinion about it once the decision has been made. Personally I found frustration when I had an opinion about whether what I was asked to do was the best use of time, the best business decision, the best way to go about the task, etc. When I let go of that and simply said to myself "It's their money. I'll do whatever they want as long as it doesn't exceed our agreed upon time commitment and it's not illegal, immoral, or expressly against company policy." But, don't be a doormat and still express your opinion as decisions are being made, but when a decision is made - don't hold on to what you think "should have been". Personally, this transformed a career from nearly unbearable to one I am just fine with.

Anyway, it might be worth a thought experiment to see if such an approach could alleviate some of your frustration.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
User avatar
Meg77
Posts: 2835
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Meg77 »

I agree that your mental and physical health depends on you making a drastic change. Whether that is a leave of absence or early retirement or new job or change in role at work - I will leave it to you to decide. Here are my thoughts:

1. One big factor that you haven't mentioned is how your wife feels about all this. Her preferences and expectations will have a big impact on this transition. Does she support you quitting entirely? Is she OK committing to continuing at her job until you both qualify for social security?

2. I'm not sure that quitting entirely and retiring now is the answer. Going from full throttle work mode to nothing-to-do-at-home mode is hard enough for anybody, but with your anxiety it may be particularly challenging. This is true especially if you are at all concerned about money (whether you should be or not is beside the point). Before you quit, find another job. You mentioned manual labor; my father considered that as well and it could be a good idea. It will help you feel like you accomplished something to see the physical results of your labor, and simultaneously it could be good exercise. Of course it could be easier to just move out of management in your current industry or something.

3. You have to put yourself first for a little while. You can't support your family if you aren't around. Explain to your kids that for your health you need to quit your job a few years sooner than anticipated and that they will need to step up as a result. You may be surprised how quickly they rally to your side and offer to help. Independence must be forced one way or another - you have to throw them out of the next either by design or by necessity, but you may be surprised and inspired and how well they fly. Have the ones still in school take out student loans. Tell them if all goes according to plan, you'll help them pay them off down the road (or worst case they can wait for the inheritance that's coming). Tell your oldest s/he must get a job and start paying rent if that's not already happening. Explaining how you "have to" cut cable and internet could help that one spread wings.

Good luck to you. Do whatever it takes to be well!
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
Topic Author
jojay
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by jojay »

Hi,
I am the OP of this now old post and thought it might be worthwhile to file an update.

The purpose of this update is not to bring you up to speed, but more to let others who may be struggling from similar circumstances aware of some of the decisions we made and what resulted.

One of the more prominent responses when this was first posted was to "get out" for psychological health reasons. Not only was this excellent advice, the manner in which you phrased your responses allowed us to believe that our situation was not unique. Hence, thank you so much for your willingness to share.

While we were trying to make the decision to go, an old colleague contacted me about an adjunct position at a local college. Thirty years ago, I actually helped her get her first teaching job and she is now a dean. I started in April 2015 at 10 hours or so per week.

Five months later, we got lucky. My company offered "early out" options for employees of a certain age / salary level. The options included 6 months of pay and four months of medical / dental coverage. We took that option in September 2015.

What were we going to do come January 2016? Medical was our only concern and - though both choices were expensive ( $5k annually) - I could go on my wife's medical or ACA. For people who worry about everything, this was quite a leap. But, mental health and its physical ramifications were far more important.

Then, we got luckier.
I received an offer from the same school where I was teaching for a part time position to coordinate a program based on my career experience ( manufacturing ). I was awarded that position in December 2015.The 18 hour per week job came with medical and free dental plus vacation and sick pay. I could work from my school office or from home. I set my own schedule. On days ( nights ) I have classes, I work in the office for a few hours. Otherwise from home. This is not a "do-nothing" job, I still apply the same work ethic as always but with far more time to think. Btw, I am very proud to say that we have completed the first stage of the program's accreditation with more to follow.

Now I'm boasting.
The combined pay is minimal but what a great position!! I can sleep until 7am (versus 415) every day or even 730 if I feel so entitled. The work is rewarding and fun. Teaching is not easy btw as there is a lot more to it than subject matter expertise but I love it and the students truly appreciate the experiences I van math to the topics. There are extended breaks at the holidays, mid Spring and very little demand from mid May through August which matches almost exactly to my wife's schedule. My boss and her bosses are great, ask me for strategic and tactical advice and let me do my thing. All told, I make about 30% of what I used to make but my life is my own. The part time salary and benefits allowed us to avoid any financial decisions which we were planning to enact back then.

So why am I posting this?
1. Thank you all for your direction. Leaving the hell of the position was definitely the correct decision but I would not have done that without the endorsement from people I respect.
2. Thank you again for the several years you have been teaching me personal financial management. My wife and I knew many years ago what to do but having thousands of reinforcing posts boosted our confidence
3. If you are where I was, I genuinely suggest getting out. As long as your financial planning supports it, you should go. Are your plans correct? Do you have enough? Can you trust your calculations? My answers would be that if you truly believe you know what you are doing financially, then trust yourself and let go.
4. Despite our traditional thinking otherwise, there are opportunities out there. They may not pay as much or coincide with what our customary ideas of career achievement are but I can honestly attest that those items quickly - very quickly - become meaningless. While you may not be looked up to for your career capabilities, everyone but most especially you, will marvel how you did it.
5. Please note that we had a financial " strategy" to get us through a year or two. It was not a great strategy and was full of flaws but at least we had a plan. The point? Being flexible, willing to change and perhaps a little lucky should provide awareness that a plan is just a plan and can always be altered.


Go! It's great. You have your life to do with what you want.

Once more, thank you all very much and especially to those who showed sincere empathy.
WildBill
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:47 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by WildBill »

Try approaching it from another angle.

Go ahead and shift gears and retire mentally and approach your job as you think it should be done, rather than as you are currently doing it. Ignore everything useless, time wasting, and overly political and focus on core objectives. Skip all BS.

You will feel a lot better and you will last at least another year and a half. You may get promoted ( I did :D once upon a time when I did this) You may even start to like it.

And get a lot more exercise.

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid
island
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by island »

jojay wrote:Hi,
I am the OP of this now old post and thought it might be worthwhile to file an update.

The purpose of this update is not to bring you up to speed, but more to let others who may be struggling from similar circumstances aware of some of the decisions we made and what resulted.

One of the more prominent responses when this was first posted was to "get out" for psychological health reasons. Not only was this excellent advice, the manner in which you phrased your responses allowed us to believe that our situation was not unique. Hence, thank you so much for your willingness to share.

While we were trying to make the decision to go, an old colleague contacted me about an adjunct position at a local college. Thirty years ago, I actually helped her get her first teaching job and she is now a dean. I started in April 2015 at 10 hours or so per week.

Five months later, we got lucky. My company offered "early out" options for employees of a certain age / salary level. The options included 6 months of pay and four months of medical / dental coverage. We took that option in September 2015.

What were we going to do come January 2016? Medical was our only concern and - though both choices were expensive ( $5k annually) - I could go on my wife's medical or ACA. For people who worry about everything, this was quite a leap. But, mental health and its physical ramifications were far more important.

Then, we got luckier.
I received an offer from the same school where I was teaching for a part time position to coordinate a program based on my career experience ( manufacturing ). I was awarded that position in December 2015.The 18 hour per week job came with medical and free dental plus vacation and sick pay. I could work from my school office or from home. I set my own schedule. On days ( nights ) I have classes, I work in the office for a few hours. Otherwise from home. This is not a "do-nothing" job, I still apply the same work ethic as always but with far more time to think. Btw, I am very proud to say that we have completed the first stage of the program's accreditation with more to follow.

Now I'm boasting.
The combined pay is minimal but what a great position!! I can sleep until 7am (versus 415) every day or even 730 if I feel so entitled. The work is rewarding and fun. Teaching is not easy btw as there is a lot more to it than subject matter expertise but I love it and the students truly appreciate the experiences I van math to the topics. There are extended breaks at the holidays, mid Spring and very little demand from mid May through August which matches almost exactly to my wife's schedule. My boss and her bosses are great, ask me for strategic and tactical advice and let me do my thing. All told, I make about 30% of what I used to make but my life is my own. The part time salary and benefits allowed us to avoid any financial decisions which we were planning to enact back then.

So why am I posting this?
1. Thank you all for your direction. Leaving the hell of the position was definitely the correct decision but I would not have done that without the endorsement from people I respect.
2. Thank you again for the several years you have been teaching me personal financial management. My wife and I knew many years ago what to do but having thousands of reinforcing posts boosted our confidence
3. If you are where I was, I genuinely suggest getting out. As long as your financial planning supports it, you should go. Are your plans correct? Do you have enough? Can you trust your calculations? My answers would be that if you truly believe you know what you are doing financially, then trust yourself and let go.
4. Despite our traditional thinking otherwise, there are opportunities out there. They may not pay as much or coincide with what our customary ideas of career achievement are but I can honestly attest that those items quickly - very quickly - become meaningless. While you may not be looked up to for your career capabilities, everyone but most especially you, will marvel how you did it.
5. Please note that we had a financial " strategy" to get us through a year or two. It was not a great strategy and was full of flaws but at least we had a plan. The point? Being flexible, willing to change and perhaps a little lucky should provide awareness that a plan is just a plan and can always be altered.


Go! It's great. You have your life to do with what you want.

Once more, thank you all very much and especially to those who showed sincere empathy.

Jojay- Thanks for coming back with an update. It's always nice to hear what happened, especially if good news. :D . Glad it worked out well for you.
Happy Holidays!
Rodc
Posts: 13601
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:46 am

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by Rodc »

JoJay,

Not too dissimilar to my dad, though he made the switch at 57. He liked the part time teaching at the local college so much he did worked until age 79. Not sure he lost all that much in wages vs a full retirement at 65 which was the original plan.

My wife recently dropped some management responsibility and dropped to working every other day - she is much happier.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
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prudent
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Posts: 9079
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 2:50 pm

Re: Thoughts on getting out [of job]

Post by prudent »

Thanks, OP for the thoughtful and detailed update. Very happy to hear things are much better for you!
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