New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I just received my renewed Visa card from B of A. It now has a chip in it, which they say offers more security. However, it is still a "swipe" and sign card. The literature says that if we use it outside the U.S., to "simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature".
So, I'm wondering how that provides any more security?
So, I'm wondering how that provides any more security?
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
My limited understanding, might be incorrect:
Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.
A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.
CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.
The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.
A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.
CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.
The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Yeah best of luck with that.... The crap that sprouts from US banks is amazing on this topic. They need to catchup with the 1990's already.Gnirk wrote:"simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature"
It's country specific...... It will work a lot of the time and other times you're just going to be SOL.... Try telling that stuff from BofA to a vending machine not configured 100% correctly or the guy at the counter that does not care about what "should" work. I suggest getting some extra cash
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Rob |
Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Yup,that's kinda what I'm thinking.rob wrote:Yeah best of luck with that.... The crap that sprouts from US banks is amazing on this topic. They need to catchup with the 1990's already.Gnirk wrote:"simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature"
It's country specific...... It will work a lot of the time and other times you're just going to be SOL.... Try telling that stuff from BofA to a vending machine not configured 100% correctly or the guy at the counter that does not care about what "should" work. I suggest getting some extra cash
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
All I know is that Chase replaced my card with one with a chip. It is a credit card. It still gets swiped like the prior one. I am not sure what it has added as the chip doesn't get swiped. I am Sargent Schultz on this one.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
They should have provided you with your PIN for the new card. Internationally, it depends on the point-of-sale setup. Sometimes, it will just print out a receipt asking for a signature, other times it will ask for a PIN and if you don't know it you won't be able to complete the transaction. I've had both happen in the same city so it's not really a country specific thing.Gnirk wrote:I just received my renewed Visa card from B of A. It now has a chip in it, which they say offers more security. However, it is still a "swipe" and sign card. The literature says that if we use it outside the U.S., to "simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature".
So, I'm wondering how that provides any more security?
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I've never been asked for a PIN internationally. Each time it's been a signature.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Many credit card companies will provide a pin if you ask. I agree that stores and restaurants are fine with a signature....but in Iceland, all the gas stations were set up for a credit card with a pin.
In the USA, gas stations tend to use the billing zip code as a pin for credit cards.
In the USA, gas stations tend to use the billing zip code as a pin for credit cards.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
+1. If you want a PIN, call customer service and ask for a form. Fill it out and mail it back. It still may or may not work on an unattended kiosk such as gas pump or train station but at least you have a chance.Naismith wrote:Many credit card companies will provide a pin if you ask.
Harry Sit has left the forums.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Weirdly I was not able to use my PenFed VISA with Chip+Pin at the gas stations in Iceland. It kept on telling me "no authorized". I used the card elsewhere with the Pin and it worked fine. Which card did you use?Naismith wrote:Many credit card companies will provide a pin if you ask. I agree that stores and restaurants are fine with a signature....but in Iceland, all the gas stations were set up for a credit card with a pin.
In the USA, gas stations tend to use the billing zip code as a pin for credit cards.
To the OP, automated train kiosks elsewhere in Europe will likely not spit out a signature receipt. A Pin card will be needed there.
Also, the bank may pass on the request to VISA who will issue the Pin directly.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
U.S. banks are cheap and lazy. Pin/chip is superior to chip and signature. U.S. should have required pin/chip cards a decade ago. And even this technology is fast becoming outdated, given all the new single-use token security systems which are even more secure.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
For exhaustive discussion see here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html
Presently at 7,172 postings.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html
Presently at 7,172 postings.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Capital One Venture; PIN by request but no chip yet.slbnoob wrote: Weirdly I was not able to use my PenFed VISA with Chip+Pin at the gas stations in Iceland. It kept on telling me "no authorized". I used the card elsewhere with the Pin and it worked fine. Which card did you use?
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
A credit card usually has a PIN number for cash advance. Can that PIN number be used for this (purchase) purpose? It would be difficult to remember two PIN numbers for a credit card.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
So you don't have a Chip. That means you couldn't have used it in Iceland gas stations (automated, not manned), could you?Naismith wrote:Capital One Venture; PIN by request but no chip yet.slbnoob wrote: Weirdly I was not able to use my PenFed VISA with Chip+Pin at the gas stations in Iceland. It kept on telling me "no authorized". I used the card elsewhere with the Pin and it worked fine. Which card did you use?
And the Pin you requested might be for cash withdrawals. That is different from CC transactions.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I second the recommendation to read this board. Many of the responses above so far are erroneous.dbr wrote:For exhaustive discussion see here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html
Presently at 7,172 postings.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
If somebody figures out your real credit card number, none of this matters. The reason I say this is because it does not matter what type of Chip card you have, if the merchant still forces a magnetic swipe, or someone has access to your physical card number even for a second (waiter/someone with a camera/etc), your real number has been disclosed. That is all that is needed to make a workable clone as long as your account allows magnetic swipes (I have yet to hear of a US card without a magnetic strip).BigPrince wrote:My limited understanding, might be incorrect:
Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.
A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.
CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.
The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
However using the Chip when you can obviously decreases the number of people/systems that have access to your real account number.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
No.flyingaway wrote:A credit card usually has a PIN number for cash advance. Can that PIN number be used for this (purchase) purpose? It would be difficult to remember two PIN numbers for a credit card.
The Pin for cash withdrawals is different than the Pin required to make authorized CC transactions. That Pin (in Chip+Pin) is issued directly by VISA/MC/AMEX and cannot be changed to a personal Pin. Remembering this Pin is what makes it a more secure method than a signature (which could be on the back of the card itself).
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Thank you for all the info. We are heading to Europe next fall, and I'd hoped this card would act like an EMV card.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I believe the the CHIP is not vulnerable to being cloned in a useful manner. The CHIP uses encryption that can only be used one time and receives a new "passkey" during a transaction to be used during the next transaction. Hence your clone will be outdated. (I may be using the wrong terminology or not the whole story, but I believe this is the intent of the design of the CHIP.)TDAlmighty wrote:If somebody figures out your real credit card number, none of this matters. The reason I say this is because it does not matter what type of Chip card you have, if the merchant still forces a magnetic swipe, or someone has access to your physical card number even for a second (waiter/someone with a camera/etc), your real number has been disclosed. That is all that is needed to make a workable clone as long as your account allows magnetic swipes (I have yet to hear of a US card without a magnetic strip).BigPrince wrote:My limited understanding, might be incorrect:
Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.
A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.
CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.
The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
However using the Chip when you can obviously decreases the number of people/systems that have access to your real account number.
The idea of the CHIP is to eliminate the magnetic swipe. The PIN probably also helps secure online transactions.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
So I am still up on Mt. Sulur, driving back down to the airport was all a dream???slbnoob wrote: So you don't have a Chip. That means you couldn't have used it in Iceland gas stations (automated, not manned), could you?
I don't think that any of us who have requested a PIN for European travel are under any illusion that it will enable use of the card in a machine that *requires* chip only. All we have is a swipe and PIN card, not a chip and PIN.
But a lot of place that accommodate a chip card will also still read a swipe card. And will ask for a PIN. That's when having the PIN comes in handy. Although I have heard that some folks get by just entering 0000 or 9999.
There are various petrol companies in Iceland, I don't doubt that your experience was different from mine. I never bought gas in Rejkavik, for example. But the swipe-and-PIN method was accepted at many places in Iceland, not just gas stations. Even like in a restaurant if a person was there swiping the card for us, they would gesture to the keypad rather than printing a receipt to sign.
I am sure that the trend is indeed toward chip cards, and the day will come when we must have that technology. But I am also guessing that Iceland will be one of the last places to stop accommodating swipers. For one thing, they are plastic-happy and things are so expensive that it was worth using the card, so we used credit cards much more than in Mexico or Indonesia. And also, tourism is so important to their national economy that they are going to try to make it easy to spend money there.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Ok. I didn't know swipe+Pin also worked. Anyway, my Chip+Pin did fail me at an unattended gas station near Kelfavik in the night and early morning. But it was not too bad since we were returning the rental car.Naismith wrote: I don't think that any of us who have requested a PIN for European travel are under any illusion that it will enable use of the card in a machine that *requires* chip only. All we have is a swipe and PIN card, not a chip and PIN.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
It will get swiped in readers that are only capable of processing mag stripe cards since they have no way of connecting to the chip.Calm Man wrote:All I know is that Chase replaced my card with one with a chip. It is a credit card. It still gets swiped like the prior one. I am not sure what it has added as the chip doesn't get swiped. I am Sargent Schultz on this one.
EMV enabled terminals will require that the card be inserted into the reader.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Some merchants in the US are moving to chip readers which (as I recall reports here) will reject swipe attempts from chip enabled cards.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Example: Walmart (near me at least)placeholder wrote:Some merchants in the US are moving to chip readers which (as I recall reports here) will reject swipe attempts from chip enabled cards.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
The CHIP cannot (edit: easily) be cloned, but nothing stops someone from making a cloned card with your REAL account number WITHOUT A CHIP and just using it as a magnetic swipe card.BigPrince wrote:I believe the the CHIP is not vulnerable to being cloned in a useful manner. The CHIP uses encryption that can only be used one time and receives a new "passkey" during a transaction to be used during the next transaction. Hence your clone will be outdated. (I may be using the wrong terminology or not the whole story, but I believe this is the intent of the design of the CHIP.)TDAlmighty wrote:If somebody figures out your real credit card number, none of this matters. The reason I say this is because it does not matter what type of Chip card you have, if the merchant still forces a magnetic swipe, or someone has access to your physical card number even for a second (waiter/someone with a camera/etc), your real number has been disclosed. That is all that is needed to make a workable clone as long as your account allows magnetic swipes (I have yet to hear of a US card without a magnetic strip).BigPrince wrote:My limited understanding, might be incorrect:
Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.
A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.
CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.
The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
However using the Chip when you can obviously decreases the number of people/systems that have access to your real account number.
The idea of the CHIP is to eliminate the magnetic swipe. The PIN probably also helps secure online transactions.
Edit: By the way, I know this from first-hand experience as someone in Maryland successfully ran my Chip/Signature Fidelity Amex. Apparently I reserved a backyard bouncy house 2000 miles away...
Bottomline: The chip does nothing to protect you AFTER someone knows your real account number (in the current US system).
Last edited by TDAlmighty on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I first came across this at a newly constructed Walmart in a rural part of Virginia in August. I swiped the card at the customer data entry device by the register and it didn't work. I showed it to the cashier and he said "oh, you have a chip, you have to put it in the slot." I put it in and pulled it out like I do at a gas station -- wrong. Then he told me to put it in and leave it in. Some green lights flashed on the data entry device and about 10 seconds later it was done. By then the person in line behind me had gone to another open register.placeholder wrote:Some merchants in the US are moving to chip readers which (as I recall reports here) will reject swipe attempts from chip enabled cards.
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I triple recommend the flyertalk link to get more accurate information. Not worth rehashing, but I will say I travel to Europe/Asia monthly for business. I used both swipe and chip & sign cards. Never had an issue with both not being accepted at a manned facility. Yes, a lot of people will say, "American?" when they put my chip & sign card in the machine at a restaurant and a long sheet of paper comes out, rather than handing it to me to enter a PIN, but it all works, which is the only thing that matters.
As for the other issue, US credit card fraud rates are less than France and several other countries in Europe. Chip & PIN evolved because Europe has crappy telecom & internet relative to the US - they needed CHIP ...
As for the other issue, US credit card fraud rates are less than France and several other countries in Europe. Chip & PIN evolved because Europe has crappy telecom & internet relative to the US - they needed CHIP ...
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I got a new American Express card with a chip a few weeks ago and checked their webpage for information. It says that the chip card has no difference from the no chip card (no pin is needed), and it is different from the chip and pin card (which they don't have yet).
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Target and Home Depot have both started installing POS terminals with a slot on the bottom (for chip-and-PIN card insertion.) But they have not yet put them into service, so there is typically a cover on that insertion point for now.
Considering the recent, outrageous hacking of Target and other companies' POS terminals, wouldn't you feel a little better using a Chip card at such a place? I know I will. And it has been useful in Europe. Countries like the Netherlands are close to eliminating all swipe terminals. You simply can't use an American, swipe-only card at those merchants. Why? Because their system is better than ours. It has much less fraud. Not Invented Here? How could it be any good? (Ironica typeface as I put my gun back over the fireplace.)
Considering the recent, outrageous hacking of Target and other companies' POS terminals, wouldn't you feel a little better using a Chip card at such a place? I know I will. And it has been useful in Europe. Countries like the Netherlands are close to eliminating all swipe terminals. You simply can't use an American, swipe-only card at those merchants. Why? Because their system is better than ours. It has much less fraud. Not Invented Here? How could it be any good? (Ironica typeface as I put my gun back over the fireplace.)
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Can you provide a link to this fraud information and the background/reasons for EMV you state here? It is contrary to anything I have ever read and I would like to understand better.Buysider wrote:As for the other issue, US credit card fraud rates are less than France and several other countries in Europe. Chip & PIN evolved because Europe has crappy telecom & internet relative to the US - they needed CHIP ...
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Here is a link with the real data:Can you provide a link to this fraud information and the background/reasons for EMV you state here? It is contrary to anything I have ever read and I would like to understand better.
http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/ ... ard-fraud/
US is at 5 basis points, France is at 7.3, Greece 6, Norway 5.9, then UK slightly below the US, etc.
Pet peeve of mine. I agree, most news articles say the US is the worst for security, etc., etc., below is an economist article which says the same thing only looking at the numerator (losses), not the denominator (purchase volume).
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-a ... imming-top
The truth is the US uses credit cards A LOT more than most other countries and as a result has a higher absolute level of fraud. But as a % of transaction volume, we're not too far off from some of the major European countries.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Thanks for the FlyerTalk link. Since I don't have the time right now to jog through…five-hundred-and-one-pages, and considering some of the questions here seem pretty basic, I'll take a stab at the intro stuff I found after getting an unsolicited chip card replacement in the mail;
1. US loses most to fraud
2. US way behind on upgrades because they cost money
3. Chip cards starting to show up because there is a liability shift in October 2015 (instead of "bank pays for fraud", it changes to whoever doesn't have chip technology pays, bank or merchant)
4. There's another deadline for chip & PIN to replace chip & probably not sign, but I can't find it because the news is saturated by recent government implementation.
1. US loses most to fraud
2. US way behind on upgrades because they cost money
3. Chip cards starting to show up because there is a liability shift in October 2015 (instead of "bank pays for fraud", it changes to whoever doesn't have chip technology pays, bank or merchant)
4. There's another deadline for chip & PIN to replace chip & probably not sign, but I can't find it because the news is saturated by recent government implementation.
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Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
Then you have only used your card when humans are present. In Europe especially there are a lot of transactions done at unattended locations (think parking lots, gas stations, subway stations, toll booths -- many of these are unattended in Europe).JJP wrote:I've never been asked for a PIN internationally. Each time it's been a signature.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?
I will just say that the I've used the PenFed chip card at unattended kiosks in Europe.
EDIT to add, the PenFed cards are:
CVM1: Chip-and-Signature
CVM2: No CVM
CVM3: Chip-and-PIN
Which means that normally you wouldn't be asked for the PIN, but they do support chip-and-PIN
See this google doc for more: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... xdUE#gid=0
EDIT to add, the PenFed cards are:
CVM1: Chip-and-Signature
CVM2: No CVM
CVM3: Chip-and-PIN
Which means that normally you wouldn't be asked for the PIN, but they do support chip-and-PIN
See this google doc for more: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... xdUE#gid=0