New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Post Reply
Topic Author
Gnirk
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:11 am
Location: South Puget Sound

New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Gnirk »

I just received my renewed Visa card from B of A. It now has a chip in it, which they say offers more security. However, it is still a "swipe" and sign card. The literature says that if we use it outside the U.S., to "simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature".
So, I'm wondering how that provides any more security?
BigPrince
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:51 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by BigPrince »

My limited understanding, might be incorrect:

Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.

A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.

CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.

The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
User avatar
rob
Posts: 5236
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:49 pm
Location: Here

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by rob »

Gnirk wrote:"simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature"
Yeah best of luck with that.... The crap that sprouts from US banks is amazing on this topic. They need to catchup with the 1990's already.

It's country specific...... It will work a lot of the time and other times you're just going to be SOL.... Try telling that stuff from BofA to a vending machine not configured 100% correctly or the guy at the counter that does not care about what "should" work. I suggest getting some extra cash :-)
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
Topic Author
Gnirk
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:11 am
Location: South Puget Sound

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Gnirk »

rob wrote:
Gnirk wrote:"simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature"
Yeah best of luck with that.... The crap that sprouts from US banks is amazing on this topic. They need to catchup with the 1990's already.

It's country specific...... It will work a lot of the time and other times you're just going to be SOL.... Try telling that stuff from BofA to a vending machine not configured 100% correctly or the guy at the counter that does not care about what "should" work. I suggest getting some extra cash :-)
Yup,that's kinda what I'm thinking.
Calm Man
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:35 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Calm Man »

All I know is that Chase replaced my card with one with a chip. It is a credit card. It still gets swiped like the prior one. I am not sure what it has added as the chip doesn't get swiped. I am Sargent Schultz on this one.
gt4715b
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:29 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by gt4715b »

Gnirk wrote:I just received my renewed Visa card from B of A. It now has a chip in it, which they say offers more security. However, it is still a "swipe" and sign card. The literature says that if we use it outside the U.S., to "simply tell the merchant your card only requires a signature".
So, I'm wondering how that provides any more security?
They should have provided you with your PIN for the new card. Internationally, it depends on the point-of-sale setup. Sometimes, it will just print out a receipt asking for a signature, other times it will ask for a PIN and if you don't know it you won't be able to complete the transaction. I've had both happen in the same city so it's not really a country specific thing.
JJP
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:06 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by JJP »

I've never been asked for a PIN internationally. Each time it's been a signature.
Naismith
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Naismith »

Many credit card companies will provide a pin if you ask. I agree that stores and restaurants are fine with a signature....but in Iceland, all the gas stations were set up for a credit card with a pin.

In the USA, gas stations tend to use the billing zip code as a pin for credit cards.
User avatar
tfb
Posts: 8397
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:46 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by tfb »

Naismith wrote:Many credit card companies will provide a pin if you ask.
+1. If you want a PIN, call customer service and ask for a form. Fill it out and mail it back. It still may or may not work on an unattended kiosk such as gas pump or train station but at least you have a chance.
Harry Sit has left the forums.
slbnoob
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by slbnoob »

Naismith wrote:Many credit card companies will provide a pin if you ask. I agree that stores and restaurants are fine with a signature....but in Iceland, all the gas stations were set up for a credit card with a pin.

In the USA, gas stations tend to use the billing zip code as a pin for credit cards.
Weirdly I was not able to use my PenFed VISA with Chip+Pin at the gas stations in Iceland. It kept on telling me "no authorized". I used the card elsewhere with the Pin and it worked fine. Which card did you use?
To the OP, automated train kiosks elsewhere in Europe will likely not spit out a signature receipt. A Pin card will be needed there.
Also, the bank may pass on the request to VISA who will issue the Pin directly.
DualIncomeNoDebt
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:38 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by DualIncomeNoDebt »

U.S. banks are cheap and lazy. Pin/chip is superior to chip and signature. U.S. should have required pin/chip cards a decade ago. And even this technology is fast becoming outdated, given all the new single-use token security systems which are even more secure.
dbr
Posts: 46137
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by dbr »

For exhaustive discussion see here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html

Presently at 7,172 postings.
Naismith
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Naismith »

slbnoob wrote: Weirdly I was not able to use my PenFed VISA with Chip+Pin at the gas stations in Iceland. It kept on telling me "no authorized". I used the card elsewhere with the Pin and it worked fine. Which card did you use?
Capital One Venture; PIN by request but no chip yet.
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by flyingaway »

A credit card usually has a PIN number for cash advance. Can that PIN number be used for this (purchase) purpose? It would be difficult to remember two PIN numbers for a credit card.
slbnoob
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by slbnoob »

Naismith wrote:
slbnoob wrote: Weirdly I was not able to use my PenFed VISA with Chip+Pin at the gas stations in Iceland. It kept on telling me "no authorized". I used the card elsewhere with the Pin and it worked fine. Which card did you use?
Capital One Venture; PIN by request but no chip yet.
So you don't have a Chip. That means you couldn't have used it in Iceland gas stations (automated, not manned), could you?
And the Pin you requested might be for cash withdrawals. That is different from CC transactions.
TDAlmighty
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:01 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by TDAlmighty »

dbr wrote:For exhaustive discussion see here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html

Presently at 7,172 postings.
I second the recommendation to read this board. Many of the responses above so far are erroneous.
TDAlmighty
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:01 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by TDAlmighty »

BigPrince wrote:My limited understanding, might be incorrect:

Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.

A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.

CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.

The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
If somebody figures out your real credit card number, none of this matters. The reason I say this is because it does not matter what type of Chip card you have, if the merchant still forces a magnetic swipe, or someone has access to your physical card number even for a second (waiter/someone with a camera/etc), your real number has been disclosed. That is all that is needed to make a workable clone as long as your account allows magnetic swipes (I have yet to hear of a US card without a magnetic strip).

However using the Chip when you can obviously decreases the number of people/systems that have access to your real account number.
slbnoob
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by slbnoob »

flyingaway wrote:A credit card usually has a PIN number for cash advance. Can that PIN number be used for this (purchase) purpose? It would be difficult to remember two PIN numbers for a credit card.
No.
The Pin for cash withdrawals is different than the Pin required to make authorized CC transactions. That Pin (in Chip+Pin) is issued directly by VISA/MC/AMEX and cannot be changed to a personal Pin. Remembering this Pin is what makes it a more secure method than a signature (which could be on the back of the card itself).
Topic Author
Gnirk
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:11 am
Location: South Puget Sound

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Gnirk »

Thank you for all the info. We are heading to Europe next fall, and I'd hoped this card would act like an EMV card. :annoyed
BigPrince
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:51 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by BigPrince »

TDAlmighty wrote:
BigPrince wrote:My limited understanding, might be incorrect:

Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.

A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.

CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.

The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
If somebody figures out your real credit card number, none of this matters. The reason I say this is because it does not matter what type of Chip card you have, if the merchant still forces a magnetic swipe, or someone has access to your physical card number even for a second (waiter/someone with a camera/etc), your real number has been disclosed. That is all that is needed to make a workable clone as long as your account allows magnetic swipes (I have yet to hear of a US card without a magnetic strip).

However using the Chip when you can obviously decreases the number of people/systems that have access to your real account number.
I believe the the CHIP is not vulnerable to being cloned in a useful manner. The CHIP uses encryption that can only be used one time and receives a new "passkey" during a transaction to be used during the next transaction. Hence your clone will be outdated. (I may be using the wrong terminology or not the whole story, but I believe this is the intent of the design of the CHIP.)

The idea of the CHIP is to eliminate the magnetic swipe. The PIN probably also helps secure online transactions.
Naismith
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Naismith »

slbnoob wrote: So you don't have a Chip. That means you couldn't have used it in Iceland gas stations (automated, not manned), could you?
So I am still up on Mt. Sulur, driving back down to the airport was all a dream???

I don't think that any of us who have requested a PIN for European travel are under any illusion that it will enable use of the card in a machine that *requires* chip only. All we have is a swipe and PIN card, not a chip and PIN.

But a lot of place that accommodate a chip card will also still read a swipe card. And will ask for a PIN. That's when having the PIN comes in handy. Although I have heard that some folks get by just entering 0000 or 9999.

There are various petrol companies in Iceland, I don't doubt that your experience was different from mine. I never bought gas in Rejkavik, for example. But the swipe-and-PIN method was accepted at many places in Iceland, not just gas stations. Even like in a restaurant if a person was there swiping the card for us, they would gesture to the keypad rather than printing a receipt to sign.

I am sure that the trend is indeed toward chip cards, and the day will come when we must have that technology. But I am also guessing that Iceland will be one of the last places to stop accommodating swipers. For one thing, they are plastic-happy and things are so expensive that it was worth using the card, so we used credit cards much more than in Mexico or Indonesia. And also, tourism is so important to their national economy that they are going to try to make it easy to spend money there.
slbnoob
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by slbnoob »

Naismith wrote: I don't think that any of us who have requested a PIN for European travel are under any illusion that it will enable use of the card in a machine that *requires* chip only. All we have is a swipe and PIN card, not a chip and PIN.
Ok. I didn't know swipe+Pin also worked. Anyway, my Chip+Pin did fail me at an unattended gas station near Kelfavik in the night and early morning. But it was not too bad since we were returning the rental car.
takeshi
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:02 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by takeshi »

Calm Man wrote:All I know is that Chase replaced my card with one with a chip. It is a credit card. It still gets swiped like the prior one. I am not sure what it has added as the chip doesn't get swiped. I am Sargent Schultz on this one.
It will get swiped in readers that are only capable of processing mag stripe cards since they have no way of connecting to the chip.

EMV enabled terminals will require that the card be inserted into the reader.
placeholder
Posts: 8373
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by placeholder »

Some merchants in the US are moving to chip readers which (as I recall reports here) will reject swipe attempts from chip enabled cards.
slbnoob
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by slbnoob »

placeholder wrote:Some merchants in the US are moving to chip readers which (as I recall reports here) will reject swipe attempts from chip enabled cards.
Example: Walmart (near me at least)
TDAlmighty
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:01 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by TDAlmighty »

BigPrince wrote:
TDAlmighty wrote:
BigPrince wrote:My limited understanding, might be incorrect:

Chip and Pin are TWO SEPARATE layers of security. If the physical CHIP and PIN card gets stolen its still very difficult to use because having possession of the CHIP is not enough to use the card.

A Chip and Signature Card is difficult to duplicate/clone because the CHIP is encrypted like the example above, but if someone gets the card physically they can still have success in using it.

CHIP and Signature is basically a layer of protection to protect cloning of your card, but not helpful if you lose the actual card.

The addition of having the PIN adds another layer making it also hard to use if someone is able to get the physical card.
If somebody figures out your real credit card number, none of this matters. The reason I say this is because it does not matter what type of Chip card you have, if the merchant still forces a magnetic swipe, or someone has access to your physical card number even for a second (waiter/someone with a camera/etc), your real number has been disclosed. That is all that is needed to make a workable clone as long as your account allows magnetic swipes (I have yet to hear of a US card without a magnetic strip).

However using the Chip when you can obviously decreases the number of people/systems that have access to your real account number.
I believe the the CHIP is not vulnerable to being cloned in a useful manner. The CHIP uses encryption that can only be used one time and receives a new "passkey" during a transaction to be used during the next transaction. Hence your clone will be outdated. (I may be using the wrong terminology or not the whole story, but I believe this is the intent of the design of the CHIP.)

The idea of the CHIP is to eliminate the magnetic swipe. The PIN probably also helps secure online transactions.
The CHIP cannot (edit: easily) be cloned, but nothing stops someone from making a cloned card with your REAL account number WITHOUT A CHIP and just using it as a magnetic swipe card.

Edit: By the way, I know this from first-hand experience as someone in Maryland successfully ran my Chip/Signature Fidelity Amex. Apparently I reserved a backyard bouncy house 2000 miles away...

Bottomline: The chip does nothing to protect you AFTER someone knows your real account number (in the current US system).
Last edited by TDAlmighty on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
stan1
Posts: 14235
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by stan1 »

placeholder wrote:Some merchants in the US are moving to chip readers which (as I recall reports here) will reject swipe attempts from chip enabled cards.
I first came across this at a newly constructed Walmart in a rural part of Virginia in August. I swiped the card at the customer data entry device by the register and it didn't work. I showed it to the cashier and he said "oh, you have a chip, you have to put it in the slot." I put it in and pulled it out like I do at a gas station -- wrong. Then he told me to put it in and leave it in. Some green lights flashed on the data entry device and about 10 seconds later it was done. By then the person in line behind me had gone to another open register.
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
Buysider
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 9:36 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Buysider »

I triple recommend the flyertalk link to get more accurate information. Not worth rehashing, but I will say I travel to Europe/Asia monthly for business. I used both swipe and chip & sign cards. Never had an issue with both not being accepted at a manned facility. Yes, a lot of people will say, "American?" when they put my chip & sign card in the machine at a restaurant and a long sheet of paper comes out, rather than handing it to me to enter a PIN, but it all works, which is the only thing that matters.

As for the other issue, US credit card fraud rates are less than France and several other countries in Europe. Chip & PIN evolved because Europe has crappy telecom & internet relative to the US - they needed CHIP ...
flyingaway
Posts: 3908
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by flyingaway »

I got a new American Express card with a chip a few weeks ago and checked their webpage for information. It says that the chip card has no difference from the no chip card (no pin is needed), and it is different from the chip and pin card (which they don't have yet).
crefwatch
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by crefwatch »

Target and Home Depot have both started installing POS terminals with a slot on the bottom (for chip-and-PIN card insertion.) But they have not yet put them into service, so there is typically a cover on that insertion point for now.

Considering the recent, outrageous hacking of Target and other companies' POS terminals, wouldn't you feel a little better using a Chip card at such a place? I know I will. And it has been useful in Europe. Countries like the Netherlands are close to eliminating all swipe terminals. You simply can't use an American, swipe-only card at those merchants. Why? Because their system is better than ours. It has much less fraud. Not Invented Here? How could it be any good? (Ironica typeface as I put my gun back over the fireplace.)
TDAlmighty
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:01 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by TDAlmighty »

Buysider wrote:As for the other issue, US credit card fraud rates are less than France and several other countries in Europe. Chip & PIN evolved because Europe has crappy telecom & internet relative to the US - they needed CHIP ...
Can you provide a link to this fraud information and the background/reasons for EMV you state here? It is contrary to anything I have ever read and I would like to understand better.
Buysider
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 9:36 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Buysider »

Can you provide a link to this fraud information and the background/reasons for EMV you state here? It is contrary to anything I have ever read and I would like to understand better.
Here is a link with the real data:

http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/ ... ard-fraud/

US is at 5 basis points, France is at 7.3, Greece 6, Norway 5.9, then UK slightly below the US, etc.

Pet peeve of mine. I agree, most news articles say the US is the worst for security, etc., etc., below is an economist article which says the same thing only looking at the numerator (losses), not the denominator (purchase volume).

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-a ... imming-top

The truth is the US uses credit cards A LOT more than most other countries and as a result has a higher absolute level of fraud. But as a % of transaction volume, we're not too far off from some of the major European countries.
Chip Spoons
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:25 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Chip Spoons »

Thanks for the FlyerTalk link. Since I don't have the time right now to jog through…five-hundred-and-one-pages, and considering some of the questions here seem pretty basic, I'll take a stab at the intro stuff I found after getting an unsolicited chip card replacement in the mail;

1. US loses most to fraud
2. US way behind on upgrades because they cost money
3. Chip cards starting to show up because there is a liability shift in October 2015 (instead of "bank pays for fraud", it changes to whoever doesn't have chip technology pays, bank or merchant)
4. There's another deadline for chip & PIN to replace chip & probably not sign, but I can't find it because the news is saturated by recent government implementation.
Chip Spoons
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:25 am

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by Chip Spoons »

jebmke
Posts: 25271
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Delmarva Peninsula

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by jebmke »

JJP wrote:I've never been asked for a PIN internationally. Each time it's been a signature.
Then you have only used your card when humans are present. In Europe especially there are a lot of transactions done at unattended locations (think parking lots, gas stations, subway stations, toll booths -- many of these are unattended in Europe).
Stay hydrated; don't sweat the small stuff
User avatar
JamesSFO
Posts: 3404
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:16 pm

Re: New B of A visa chip card, no pin needed?

Post by JamesSFO »

I will just say that the I've used the PenFed chip card at unattended kiosks in Europe.

EDIT to add, the PenFed cards are:

CVM1: Chip-and-Signature
CVM2: No CVM
CVM3: Chip-and-PIN

Which means that normally you wouldn't be asked for the PIN, but they do support chip-and-PIN

See this google doc for more: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... xdUE#gid=0
Post Reply