What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
What assets can a lawyer see that you have? I know they can look up cars and houses what else can they see that you own?
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Depends. Is the lawyer representing someone that has filed a lawsuit against you? If so, they can get a subpoena to look at all assets. Physical and financial. Might not be able to make a claim on them but they can certainly see what you have.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I think this depends upon what is at stake. Their investigators can frequently find out more about you than you can remember, but it costs them serious money to dig up everything.rec7 wrote:What assets can a lawyer see that you have? I know they can look up cars and houses what else can they see that you own?
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Beyond the obvious example of cars and homes, many attorneys buy the services of unscrupulous private investigators. These investigators have employees (moles) at various financial institutions that will look up your name and provide any accounts that you have to the investigator who then provides that information to the attorney. Beyond moles, they are also adept at social engineering tactics and can pretend to be you, your POA, your spouse, your boss, another bank calling to get an account reference on you, etc. The lawyer doesn't have to do any of this - there are plenty of unscrupulous people willing to do it for them.
They can also go through your garbage to get any hints about where you have your bank accounts, safe deposit boxes, brokerage accounts, etc. If you don't cross-shred everything (including the envelopes!) you are leaking a tremendous amount of information that they can then use to get additional information.
As someone else said, if someone gets a judgment against you they can also call you in for a debtor's examination. You will then testify under oath and penalty of perjury how much and where all your assets are. Of course, if you tell them that there is $100,000 in a Checking account at TD Bank there's nothing stopping you from moving it the minute after the debtor's examination. That's why a lot of people who undergo debtor's examinations verbally state at the end, "Please let the record reflect it is now 3:30 pm" which the court recorder then records. You then have a withdrawal slip timestamped for 3:35 pm, showing that you did not lie about where the money was at the minute you were asked.
There's a lot more to this. If you have a specific circumstance, let us know more info.
They can also go through your garbage to get any hints about where you have your bank accounts, safe deposit boxes, brokerage accounts, etc. If you don't cross-shred everything (including the envelopes!) you are leaking a tremendous amount of information that they can then use to get additional information.
As someone else said, if someone gets a judgment against you they can also call you in for a debtor's examination. You will then testify under oath and penalty of perjury how much and where all your assets are. Of course, if you tell them that there is $100,000 in a Checking account at TD Bank there's nothing stopping you from moving it the minute after the debtor's examination. That's why a lot of people who undergo debtor's examinations verbally state at the end, "Please let the record reflect it is now 3:30 pm" which the court recorder then records. You then have a withdrawal slip timestamped for 3:35 pm, showing that you did not lie about where the money was at the minute you were asked.
There's a lot more to this. If you have a specific circumstance, let us know more info.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Thanks everybody I was just curious.
-
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:04 pm
- Location: So Cal
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Not a lawyer so those who do practice feel free to set me right...epitomist wrote:Beyond the obvious example of cars and homes, many attorneys buy the services of unscrupulous private investigators. These investigators have employees (moles) at various financial institutions that will look up your name and provide any accounts that you have to the investigator who then provides that information to the attorney. Beyond moles, they are also adept at social engineering tactics and can pretend to be you, your POA, your spouse, your boss, another bank calling to get an account reference on you, etc. The lawyer doesn't have to do any of this - there are plenty of unscrupulous people willing to do it for them.
They can also go through your garbage to get any hints about where you have your bank accounts, safe deposit boxes, brokerage accounts, etc. If you don't cross-shred everything (including the envelopes!) you are leaking a tremendous amount of information that they can then use to get additional information.
As someone else said, if someone gets a judgment against you they can also call you in for a debtor's examination. You will then testify under oath and penalty of perjury how much and where all your assets are. Of course, if you tell them that there is $100,000 in a Checking account at TD Bank there's nothing stopping you from moving it the minute after the debtor's examination. That's why a lot of people who undergo debtor's examinations verbally state at the end, "Please let the record reflect it is now 3:30 pm" which the court recorder then records. You then have a withdrawal slip timestamped for 3:35 pm, showing that you did not lie about where the money was at the minute you were asked.
There's a lot more to this. If you have a specific circumstance, let us know more info.
But I figure any good defense attorney will ask how the information in your first paragraph was located. If it is not public information (county records, etc ) and there was no court subpoena for the information how can the evidence be admissible? At this point you are talking some serious privacy law violations.
-
- Posts: 1660
- Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:22 pm
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I am not a lawyer but my guess is that the information may not necessarily be used in court but used to decide things like whether or not it is worth it to sue the person. Again though, not a lawyer, so just a guess.Busting Myths wrote:Not a lawyer so those who do practice feel free to set me right...epitomist wrote:Beyond the obvious example of cars and homes, many attorneys buy the services of unscrupulous private investigators. These investigators have employees (moles) at various financial institutions that will look up your name and provide any accounts that you have to the investigator who then provides that information to the attorney. Beyond moles, they are also adept at social engineering tactics and can pretend to be you, your POA, your spouse, your boss, another bank calling to get an account reference on you, etc. The lawyer doesn't have to do any of this - there are plenty of unscrupulous people willing to do it for them.
They can also go through your garbage to get any hints about where you have your bank accounts, safe deposit boxes, brokerage accounts, etc. If you don't cross-shred everything (including the envelopes!) you are leaking a tremendous amount of information that they can then use to get additional information.
As someone else said, if someone gets a judgment against you they can also call you in for a debtor's examination. You will then testify under oath and penalty of perjury how much and where all your assets are. Of course, if you tell them that there is $100,000 in a Checking account at TD Bank there's nothing stopping you from moving it the minute after the debtor's examination. That's why a lot of people who undergo debtor's examinations verbally state at the end, "Please let the record reflect it is now 3:30 pm" which the court recorder then records. You then have a withdrawal slip timestamped for 3:35 pm, showing that you did not lie about where the money was at the minute you were asked.
There's a lot more to this. If you have a specific circumstance, let us know more info.
But I figure any good defense attorney will ask how the information in your first paragraph was located. If it is not public information (county records, etc ) and there was no court subpoena for the information how can the evidence be admissible? At this point you are talking some serious privacy law violations.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
This is not how it works at all.Busting Myths wrote:But I figure any good defense attorney will ask how the information in your first paragraph was located. If it is not public information (county records, etc ) and there was no court subpoena for the information how can the evidence be admissible? At this point you are talking some serious privacy law violations.
If you have a judgment against someone, it is up to you to collect it by locating and seizing their assets.
For example, if you know that someone has $100,000 in a checking account you can levy the bank account. You can literally freeze their account and bring its account balance down to $0.
Details:
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/bankru ... unt_a1.asp
All that's really necessary is the judgment, the account number and the bank name and poof! You don't have to tell anyone how you came by this knowledge at all.
...and here's the real kicker! If you "forgot" to tell them about a checking account with $100,000 in the debtor's examination, they discover it through unscrupulous means and then successfully levy it through legal means... you are screwed. You very well may spend time in jail for lying under oath and your creditor will hang that over your head to convince you to give up even more assets - perhaps ones you're not even legally obligated to give up (ex: money in a 401k).
Basic info on debtor's examinations in California:
http://www.courts.ca.gov/11187.htm
Last edited by epitomist on Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Actually, that's a great guess! Most plaintiff's attorneys will do all kinds of sneaky things to ascertain a defendant's ability to pay a judgment before they will take a case on a contingency basis, for example.Silence Dogood wrote:I am not a lawyer but my guess is that the information may not necessarily be used in court but used to decide things like whether or not it is worth it to sue the person. Again though, not a lawyer, so just a guess.
-
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:46 pm
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
What if somebody has a joint account with a sibling? Does that mean ALL assets of that sibling are up for grabs in a lawsuit simply by virtue of you sharing an account with them? Or, would the money grab just be limited to that one, shared account?epitomist wrote:
There's a lot more to this. If you have a specific circumstance, let us know more info.
-
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
The sibling is fine. Only half of the jointly owned account is vulnerable, depending on the state and depending on deposits.postingname wrote:What if somebody has a joint account with a sibling? Does that mean ALL assets of that sibling are up for grabs in a lawsuit simply by virtue of you sharing an account with them? Or, would the money grab just be limited to that one, shared account?
The easiest way for a lawyer to find out what you have is to ask in discovery. The court will compel you to disclose your assets, and you won't like what happens if you lie or refuse.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Rec7:Thanks everybody I was just curious.
Why were you curious? If someone you know is considering hiding assets in an effort to avoid legal obligations, I would tell them not to do it. It is highly unlikely that the effort will be successful -- and the outcome likely will be much worse after the assets are discovered.
What can be added to the happiness of a man who is in health, out of debt, and has a clear conscience? Adam Smith
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
What's to prevent someone from filing a bogus lawsuit simply for the purpose of discovering someone's assets as a prelude to identity theft?
Most of my posts assume no behavioral errors.
-
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
There are much easier ways to steal your identity.baw703916 wrote:What's to prevent someone from filing a bogus lawsuit simply for the purpose of discovering someone's assets as a prelude to identity theft?
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
No nothing like that LOL. I was reading all the car insurance questions and just was thinking about it.Cal Aggie wrote:Rec7:Thanks everybody I was just curious.
Why were you curious? If someone you know is considering hiding assets in an effort to avoid legal obligations, I would tell them not to do it. It is highly unlikely that the effort will be successful -- and the outcome likely will be much worse after the assets are discovered.
- Phineas J. Whoopee
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
As implied above, it has nothing to do with whether the person having a look is a lawyer. Anybody with the determination and reason to spend time and money can find out a lot. Actually, in today's information age, it doesn't even take much of either to get a good idea.
If there's a lawsuit the judge likely will require the defendant disclose all assets during the discovery process. Trying to hide some, as already referenced, is a seriously bad idea.
PJW
If there's a lawsuit the judge likely will require the defendant disclose all assets during the discovery process. Trying to hide some, as already referenced, is a seriously bad idea.
PJW
-
- Posts: 2628
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:43 am
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I don't know where you practice butepitomist wrote: As someone else said, if someone gets a judgment against you they can also call you in for a debtor's examination. You will then testify under oath and penalty of perjury how much and where all your assets are. Of course, if you tell them that there is $100,000 in a Checking account at TD Bank there's nothing stopping you from moving it the minute after the debtor's examination. That's why a lot of people who undergo debtor's examinations verbally state at the end, "Please let the record reflect it is now 3:30 pm" which the court recorder then records. You then have a withdrawal slip timestamped for 3:35 pm, showing that you did not lie about where the money was at the minute you were asked..
In our procedure you get an order freezing the assets and also directing the debtor to supplement answers if they acquire any more.
California for example
3439.04. (a) A transfer made or obligation incurred by a debtor is
fraudulent as to a creditor, whether the creditor's claim arose
before or after the transfer was made or the obligation was incurred,
if the debtor made the transfer or incurred the obligation as
follows:
(1) With actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud any creditor
of the debtor.
So your strategy just digs the hole deeper
contempt can get you A few hours in a cell with big bubba as your new best friend
-
- Posts: 9881
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:57 pm
- Location: Milky Way
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I was once told (by a lawyer) that it is very easy for someone to find-out your account balance in any bank where you hold a checking account.
Best regards, -Op |
|
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
You've misunderstood. In what you cited, transfer has a very specific meaning. It means to give the assets to someone else to make it appear as though you don't own the asset. Similarly it talks about fraudulently taking on a fake obligation (debt) for the sole purpose of making your net worth appear lower. If you have money in an account in your name at Bank A and then move it to an account in your name at Bank B, you are not changing ownership of the money and you're not violating your citation.Professor Emeritus wrote:
I don't know where you practice but
In our procedure you get an order freezing the assets and also directing the debtor to supplement answers if they acquire any more.
California for example
3439.04. (a) A transfer made or obligation incurred by a debtor is
fraudulent as to a creditor, whether the creditor's claim arose
before or after the transfer was made or the obligation was incurred,
if the debtor made the transfer or incurred the obligation as
follows:
(1) With actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud any creditor
of the debtor.
So your strategy just digs the hole deeper
contempt can get you A few hours in a cell with big bubba as your new best friend
I was sued by a scumbag family trying to extort money from me for almost two years before the judge threw out their case. If, after the action had commenced, I had transferred money to (for example) my mother in law, I would've been guilty of what you're talking about. But me transferring money between bank accounts I own was perfectly acceptable.
-
- Posts: 2628
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:43 am
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Not a chance. the asset is the bank account. Switching banks to hinder a creditor is a violation.epitomist wrote:You've misunderstood. In what you cited, transfer has a very specific meaning. It means to give the assets to someone else to make it appear as though you don't own the asset. Similarly it talks about fraudulently taking on a fake obligation (debt) for the sole purpose of making your net worth appear lower. If you have money in an account in your name at Bank A and then move it to an account in your name at Bank B, you are not changing ownership of the money and you're not violating your citation.Professor Emeritus wrote:
I don't know where you practice but
In our procedure you get an order freezing the assets and also directing the debtor to supplement answers if they acquire any more.
California for example
3439.04. (a) A transfer made or obligation incurred by a debtor is
fraudulent as to a creditor, whether the creditor's claim arose
before or after the transfer was made or the obligation was incurred,
if the debtor made the transfer or incurred the obligation as
follows:
(1) With actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud any creditor
of the debtor.
So your strategy just digs the hole deeper
contempt can get you A few hours in a cell with big bubba as your new best friend
I was sued by a scumbag family trying to extort money from me for almost two years before the judge threw out their case. If, after the action had commenced, I had transferred money to (for example) my mother in law, I would've been guilty of what you're talking about. But me transferring money between bank accounts I own was perfectly acceptable.
From the UFTA
(12) “Transfer” means every mode, direct or indirect, absolute or
conditional, voluntary or involuntary, of disposing of or parting with an asset or an
interest in an asset, and includes payment of money, release, lease, and creation of a
lien or other encumbrance
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
If you think that a bank account, rather than the money within a bank account is an asset that you own then you need to see the thread where the bank closed a person's bank account for no reason given and that he has no recourse about it. http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=146568 The reason he has no recourse is of course because a bank account is not an asset that you own but rather merely a method of tracking your actual asset within it - the money.Professor Emeritus wrote: Not a chance. the asset is the bank account. Switching banks to hinder a creditor is a violation.
From the UFTA
(12) “Transfer” means every mode, direct or indirect, absolute or
conditional, voluntary or involuntary, of disposing of or parting with an asset or an
interest in an asset, and includes payment of money, release, lease, and creation of a
lien or other encumbrance
Or hey, another fun example. Take all the money out of your bank account and then try to sell your $0 balance bank account. You'll find out quickly how worthless of an "asset" you have on your hands.
So clearly, a bank account is not an asset. The money within it is an asset. If you therefore transfer your asset (the money) from an account at Bank A which you control to an account at Bank B which you control, then you are not "disposing of or parting with an asset or an interest in an asset". In such a transfer, your net worth remains constant. The sole purpose of the rule here, keep in mind, is to prevent someone from transferring title of an asset to a third party to lower the net worth of the debtor and thereby defraud the creditor.
-
- Posts: 2628
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:43 am
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Nonsense. A bank account is an asset just like a bond. it is a general obligation of a bank. the fact that the contractual obligation is to pay on demand has no effect on its legal status.epitomist wrote:If you think that a bank account, rather than the money within a bank account is an asset that you own then you need to see the thread where the bank closed a person's bank account for no reason given and that he has no recourse about it. http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=146568 The reason he has no recourse is of course because a bank account is not an asset that you own but rather merely a method of tracking your actual asset within it - the money.Professor Emeritus wrote: Not a chance. the asset is the bank account. Switching banks to hinder a creditor is a violation.
From the UFTA
(12) “Transfer” means every mode, direct or indirect, absolute or
conditional, voluntary or involuntary, of disposing of or parting with an asset or an
interest in an asset, and includes payment of money, release, lease, and creation of a
lien or other encumbrance
Or hey, another fun example. Take all the money out of your bank account and then try to sell your $0 balance bank account. You'll find out quickly how worthless of an "asset" you have on your hands.
So clearly, a bank account is not an asset. The money within it is an asset. If you therefore transfer your asset (the money) from an account at Bank A which you control to an account at Bank B which you control, then you are not "disposing of or parting with an asset or an interest in an asset". In such a transfer, your net worth remains constant. The sole purpose of the rule here, keep in mind, is to prevent someone from transferring title of an asset to a third party to lower the net worth of the debtor and thereby defraud the creditor.
Where do you practice law?
A primer from Wiki
Legal framework.....
The banking terms "deposit" and "withdrawal" mean a customer paying money into, and taking money out of, the account. From a legal and financial accounting standpoint, the term "deposit" is used by the banking industry in financial statements to describe the liability owed by the bank to its depositor, and not the funds that the bank holds as a result of the deposit, which are shown as assets of the bank.
For example, a depositor opening a checking account at a bank in the United States with $100 in cash surrenders legal title to the $100 in cash, which becomes an asset of the bank. On the bank's books, the bank debits its currency and coin on hand account for the $100 in cash, and credits a liability account (called a demand deposit account, checking account, etc.) for an equal amount. (See double-entry bookkeeping system.)
In the audited financial statements of the bank, the $100 in currency would be shown on the balance sheet as an asset of the bank on the left side, and the deposit account would be shown as a liability owed by the bank to its customer, on the right side of the balance sheet. The bank's financial statement reflects the economic substance of the transaction—which is that the bank has borrowed $100 from its depositor and has contractually obliged itself to repay the customer according to the terms of the agreement. To offset this deposit liability, the bank now owns the funds deposited (either in notes and coin or more usually as a debt owed by another bank) and the bank shows those funds as an asset of the bank. These "physical" reserve funds may be held as deposits at the relevant central bank and will receive the interest as per monetary policy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deposit_account
So the Asset you own is a legal claim on the bank. Exchanging that claim for cash is a "transfer"
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I happen to work at a bank and I can tell you that an account with a $0 balance is not a liability any more than a loan with a $0 balance is an asset. Why? Because it is money that makes them an asset or a liability. To say otherwise is just plain silly.
You really don't understand the meaning of the word transfer in this context. It is a transfer to another entity for the purposes of hiding your net worth that is prohibited. By your silly interpretation of the definition of transfer, someone moving money from their savings account to their checking account within the same bank is in possible violation because they "transferred" assets from one account to another account. Someone with an account at Bank A that is acquired at Bank B thereby generating a new account number is in possible violation because:
You really don't understand the meaning of the word transfer in this context. It is a transfer to another entity for the purposes of hiding your net worth that is prohibited. By your silly interpretation of the definition of transfer, someone moving money from their savings account to their checking account within the same bank is in possible violation because they "transferred" assets from one account to another account. Someone with an account at Bank A that is acquired at Bank B thereby generating a new account number is in possible violation because:
Someone paying their mortgage is a violation because they've transferred money from their checking account to their mortgage company. According to you, taking any of these actions would require the actor to prove their intent was not to defraud. I could go on and on with more ridiculous consequences of your silly interpretation, but if you haven't gotten this by now, then you're either being purposely obtuse or are just incapable of understanding this.Professor Emeritus wrote:(12) “Transfer” means every mode, direct or indirect, absolute or
conditional, voluntary or involuntary, of disposing of or parting with an asset or an
interest in an asset, and includes payment of money, release, lease, and creation of a
lien or other encumbrance
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
The substantial filing fees that most courts charge today. In federal court, for example, it costs about $400 to file a civil suit. Not to mention the fact that you'd be giving the police all the information they need (name, address, etc.) to prosecute you for stealing the other guy's identity. Filing a lawsuit to steal someone's identity would just be dumb.baw703916 wrote:What's to prevent someone from filing a bogus lawsuit simply for the purpose of discovering someone's assets as a prelude to identity theft?
-
- Posts: 25625
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Having an umbrella is a good idea, you get hit with a lawsuit, you pull out your umbrella to respond. It's not going to be so easy to just "grab assets". One more reason to keep some gold/silver and cold hard cash lying around - you can't seize, what you can't see.Rupert wrote:The substantial filing fees that most courts charge today. In federal court, for example, it costs about $400 to file a civil suit. Not to mention the fact that you'd be giving the police all the information they need (name, address, etc.) to prosecute you for stealing the other guy's identity. Filing a lawsuit to steal someone's identity would just be dumb.baw703916 wrote:What's to prevent someone from filing a bogus lawsuit simply for the purpose of discovering someone's assets as a prelude to identity theft?
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
-
- Posts: 25625
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Not that easy unless you commit fraud. Committing fraud can lead to loss of license to practice law.Call_Me_Op wrote:I was once told (by a lawyer) that it is very easy for someone to find-out your account balance in any bank where you hold a checking account.
Along with a whole host of other charges.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
From personal experience - if there is a civil judgment against you (even if you are one of many), you can be compelled to turn over massive amounts of information and records on just about everything you have, own or have had/owned in the past. Then, you may be called in for a "deposition" where, under oath, the attorney(s) can grill you about such matters, etc. it is a horrible experience - and the attorney(s) can (and in my case did) make up all sorts of things to throw at me during the process. For example, in going through years of bank statements and cancelled checks, there were monthly checks to a storage facility where we had stored some items/furniture that my wife got after her parents died. In the "grilling", the attorney accused me of hiding property of the company I had worked for and also had a judgment against it (all part of the same case).rec7 wrote:What assets can a lawyer see that you have? I know they can look up cars and houses what else can they see that you own?
Then, using whatever they find in this process (and others) - they can then file claims against such assets. This was how they got all the details of my IRA to take several hundred thousand dollars.
-
- Posts: 2628
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:43 am
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I'm sorry , an account with a zero balance is still an asset or liability with a zero value.epitomist wrote:I happen to work at a bank and I can tell you that an account with a $0 balance is not a liability any more than a loan with a $0 balance is an asset. Why? Because it is money that makes them an asset or a liability. To say otherwise is just plain silly.
You really don't understand the meaning of the word transfer in this context. It is a transfer to another entity for the purposes of hiding your net worth that is prohibited. By your silly interpretation of the definition of transfer, someone moving money from their savings account to their checking account within the same bank is in possible violation because they "transferred" assets from one account to another account. Someone with an account at Bank A that is acquired at Bank B thereby generating a new account number is in possible violation because:
Someone paying their mortgage is a violation because they've transferred money from their checking account to their mortgage company. According to you, taking any of these actions would require the actor to prove their intent was not to defraud. I could go on and on with more ridiculous consequences of your silly interpretation, but if you haven't gotten this by now, then you're either being purposely obtuse or are just incapable of understanding this.Professor Emeritus wrote:(12) “Transfer” means every mode, direct or indirect, absolute or
conditional, voluntary or involuntary, of disposing of or parting with an asset or an
interest in an asset, and includes payment of money, release, lease, and creation of a
lien or other encumbrance
Read the statute. any transfer, even paying off a mortgage can be a violation.
If I owe a personal debt and I take my money and pay my mortgage on it which is jointly held as tenants by the entirety I assure you its a violation.
if you transfer money without disclosure from an account you have disclosed at a debtors hearing to an account that is undisclosed EVEN AT THE SAME BANK I promise you a judge will find it a transfer to hinder creditors. e.g. You take cash out of a checking account and put in in a new checking account at the same bank which you have not disclosed. it is a violation.
There is simply no requirement to transfer to someone else
Concluding that defendant is not an “insider” because the list does not specifically refer to transfers made to one's self elevates the technical over the substantive We refuse to give the statute such an unreasonable construction. If a relative or business entity controlled by the debtor is an “insider,” it follows that the debtor herself is an insider. Transactions with those entities allow the debtor to take the assets out of her name and place them beyond the reach of creditors. Since that is essentially what defendant did in this case, we conclude that she is an “insider” within the meaning of N.J.S.A. 25:2-26(a).
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nj-supreme-c ... 96287.html
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I thought IRA's and 401k were protected?dm200 wrote:From personal experience - if there is a civil judgment against you (even if you are one of many), you can be compelled to turn over massive amounts of information and records on just about everything you have, own or have had/owned in the past. Then, you may be called in for a "deposition" where, under oath, the attorney(s) can grill you about such matters, etc. it is a horrible experience - and the attorney(s) can (and in my case did) make up all sorts of things to throw at me during the process. For example, in going through years of bank statements and cancelled checks, there were monthly checks to a storage facility where we had stored some items/furniture that my wife got after her parents died. In the "grilling", the attorney accused me of hiding property of the company I had worked for and also had a judgment against it (all part of the same case).rec7 wrote:What assets can a lawyer see that you have? I know they can look up cars and houses what else can they see that you own?
Then, using whatever they find in this process (and others) - they can then file claims against such assets. This was how they got all the details of my IRA to take several hundred thousand dollars.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
This is where things like trusts come into play, if you don't own the asset then it can't be taken. Typically one a trust makes a distribution to a person that money is an asset and can be intercepted or taken but the money still in the trust can't. Protecting assets is not the same as hiding assets, lawfully protecting assets means you legitimately don't own them anymore, hiding means not disclosing and that's a very bad idea.
People typically worry about attorneys knowing what assets they have when they are getting divorced or sued. If a judge orders you to disclose assets and you don't fully supply your list of assets you've committed perjury and probably contempt. The penalties for perjury can be higher than the original offense (Clinton was actually impeached for perjury).
If you need to protect assets that means you have enough to protect which also means you should meet with an attorney that specializes in asset protection. Umbrella policy is likely to be part of an asset protection strategy.
People typically worry about attorneys knowing what assets they have when they are getting divorced or sued. If a judge orders you to disclose assets and you don't fully supply your list of assets you've committed perjury and probably contempt. The penalties for perjury can be higher than the original offense (Clinton was actually impeached for perjury).
If you need to protect assets that means you have enough to protect which also means you should meet with an attorney that specializes in asset protection. Umbrella policy is likely to be part of an asset protection strategy.
Deposition is a very powerful tool, it is real time oral discovery under oath and it is never going to be fun for the person being deposed. It also helps the opposing attorney avoid surprises at trial and also lets them lock your testimony down (if you change your answers between deposition and trial you lose credibility and may face perjury penalties).Then, you may be called in for a "deposition" where, under oath, the attorney(s) can grill you
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
I thought IRA's and 401k were protected?[/quote]rec7 wrote:dm200 wrote:From personal experience - if there is a civil judgment against you (even if you are one of many), you can be compelled to turn over massive amounts of information and records on just about everything you have, own or have had/owned in the past. Then, you may be called in for a "deposition" where, under oath, the attorney(s) can grill you about such matters, etc. it is a horrible experience - and the attorney(s) can (and in my case did) make up all sorts of things to throw at me during the process. For example, in going through years of bank statements and cancelled checks, there were monthly checks to a storage facility where we had stored some items/furniture that my wife got after her parents died. In the "grilling", the attorney accused me of hiding property of the company I had worked for and also had a judgment against it (all part of the same case).rec7 wrote:What assets can a lawyer see that you have? I know they can look up cars and houses what else can they see that you own?
Then, using whatever they find in this process (and others) - they can then file claims against such assets. This was how they got all the details of my IRA to take several hundred thousand dollars.
I thought so too (and received similar legal information from an attorney at the time - WRONG!). Actually they are "protected", but the important points are "when" are they protected and "from whom or from what". Without going into the deep weeds of this (as well as it has been a few years), this was the fine point/detail that I was hit with (VERY HARD). Both 401k and IRAs have significant protection from bankruptcy. If there is not a bankruptcy (I did not declare for bankruptcy), then different thresholds of "protection" apply (all based on state law, which can be very different from one state to another) to IRAs. At the time, my state did not provide much protection of IRAs from civil judgments (when there is not a bankruptcy). It did me NO GOOD, but a year or two after they took my IRA money, my state increased the protection of IRAs from such civil judgments.
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
It sure is - in MANY ways! From my VERY PAINFUL experience, the opposing attorneys can learn all sorts of facts, information, etc. - then use it to learn more, take different actions, etc. Load the gun and be ready to pull the trigger very quickly. At a subsequent trial, a deposition can be used to "contain" or "restrict" your testimony. Any and everything in your trial testimony that is even a hint of being different than the deposition can be brought up to challenge/discredit you. Depositions also can be used to limit arguments that you/your attorney can make - such as a statement in your (or others) deposition about any claims/counterclaims you may have. In my case, for example, because the trial took more than one day, the opposing attorneys spent the evening/night going over the entire deposition of one party on my side of the case, and the next morning when the trial resumed, they brought up something in the deposition of a coworker that, as the judge ruled, threw out one of our counter arguments. We (including the person that made the statement) believed that deposition statement cited did not mean what was claimed and ruled on - but the judge decided that the statement meant what the opposition claimed.Deposition is a very powerful tool, it is real time oral discovery under oath and it is never going to be fun for the person being deposed. It also helps the opposing attorney avoid surprises at trial and also lets them lock your testimony down (if you change your answers between deposition and trial you lose credibility and may face perjury penalties).
-
- Founder
- Posts: 11589
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:06 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
Re: What type of assets can a lawyer see that you have?
Locked. This has strayed quite far what turned out to in the first place to be a non-personal (and thus off-)topic.