Would you quit over the pretend boss

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Post Reply
Topic Author
kithwang
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 am

Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by kithwang »

I am a programmer and manager. It's a small company. The CIO (investment officer) gives me my projects. The COO (operating officer) has a weekly meeting with me to check what I am doing. Last year I was told by the CIO that I didn't get an excellent bonus because I didn't finish my project and the COO was in the room. I said I was finishing projects for the COO and I couldn't finish the projects because the COO redirected me, two people had quit, and I took over their jobs. They ended the meeting by saying if I finish 2 projects for 2014 I will get a better bonus.

After that performance review, I told the COO that I will only concentrate on what the CIO wants. I said that I do not like being blindsided during my performance review. He said okay and told me to periodically tell the CIO what I am doing. I have done this since then.

Every two months, the COO wants me to do a side project. I told him no, I will not do projects that deviates from the CIO's plan. COO is surprised every time and I reminded him yet again that my performance bonus was hurt by doing his projects last year.

Would you quit over someone like the COO in your company that you meet weekly with? I don't know why the COO has meetings with me when he can't even direct my projects, take responsibility or lead my projects. He doesn't have the technical knowledge on completing a project.

I am the manager of the technical projects.
Last edited by kithwang on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
leonard
Posts: 5993
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by leonard »

Exec's don't like being told "no".

Also, your manager should be prioritizing your assignments and know everything you are working on.

Luckily - it's easy to balance these 2 items.

Every time someone like the COO comes to you with a project, get enough information and requirements so that you can spec your potential time commitment. Then, simply tell the COO - "I'll put this in my possible projects list and discuss with my manager at our next one on one. I'll work with my manager to prioritize against the other projects in the que and the time available for their completion. Either myself or my manager will get back to you regarding our capacity for doing this project."

Then, go to your manager with the new request - plus your current commitments - and have a prioritization discussion. If you manager decides to NOT have you work on the new COO request - let them have those discussions with the COO. A manager is there to prioritize, get resources, and clear roadblocks. Negotiating with stakeholders - like the COO - is something your manager should be doing, not you. So, frame up the discussion for your manager and let them do the push back and politicking for work that you don't have time to cover.

Also, another great strategy for putting the ball back in the COO's court - you can always propose that the COO pay for a contract resource that you or your manager supervise to do the work. That's allows you to propose an option for the COO to get his project done and allows you to be a problem solver, without giving a flat "No".

EDIT: With all due respect to other posters - neither your CIO or the COO want to hear "No", they don't want you to simply lay the problems back at their feet. They DO want you to propose a way of working through this that solves problems and is visible. Fair or not - it's generally how most companies and most Senior Managers want to work.
Last edited by leonard on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
Topic Author
kithwang
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by kithwang »

Edited to say I am a programmer and manager. It's a small company.
investor1
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:15 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by investor1 »

The COO should be in sync with the CIO.

If they aren't doing that on their own, have meetings with them both regularly so they sync up. I would assume the COO should be directing you based on what is agreed from there.

If that doesn't work, the CEO should get them to sync up. Bring it up with him/her.

If that doesn't work, get over it or move on.

It also sounds like the CIO screwed you out of a bonus.
livesoft
Posts: 86077
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by livesoft »

If you are a manager, then why don't you manage the COO and the CIO to get
1. A huge raise
2. Incredible bonuses
3. More staff to complete the work they want done
4. More vacation days
5. A better work environment
6. Etc.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
tyrion
Posts: 1423
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by tyrion »

It sounds to me like the person directing your work (giving you your projects) should be the one you have a regular meeting with.

Could you suggest meeting with both at the same time?
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

It sounds like the COO is just wasting your time and costing you money. I would make it clear to the CIO that your understanding is that you are to ignore the COO. If that's not the case, then the CIO has to spell out how you are supposed to prioritize your work and get a bonus under these circumstances. Whenever there is an interruption for another project, I would include rescheduling and moving checkpoints and have that in writing. It would be interesting to discuss why the other people quit.

I wouldn't quit now. I might have cards printed up to hand to the COO every time he comes around that say I don't work for you, I work for the CIO.

You might have to eventually quit. Sometimes management is so screwed up that it's impossible to get your work done and get credit for it.
freddie
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:06 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by freddie »

None of us know your exact reporting chain and the like, but this is your bosses (CIO?) problem. Tell him what is going on and ask what he wants done. The part I never get is why stuff like this isn't worked out during the year. The boss (whoever that is) must have know you were falling behind. Why wait til review time to do something about it. Maybe keeping the COO happy should be part of your goals. Maybe it shouldn't. Only the management of the company knows what is valuable to them.
User avatar
FelixTheCat
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:39 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by FelixTheCat »

I am in the same type of structure. Everyone wants my help and Owner only wants me to work on his projects.

I tell everyone the owner is the priority. IF there project is important, please go to the owner and plead your case.
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.
Quickfoot
Posts: 1166
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Quickfoot »

Every two months, the COO wants me to do a side project. I told him no, I will not do projects that deviates from the CIO's plan. COO is surprised every time and I reminded him yet again that my performance bonus was hurt by doing his projects last year.
No is the wrong answer and is going to hurt your career eventually and telling the CIO you will will not do work will hurt it now. The last thing you want to tell management is you will not do something, you can however help them make good decisions.

The answer you should be giving him is to check with the CIO because the CIO sets your priorities. This gives you the opportunity to explain to the CIO what other work wont get done and lets him assign a priority (the COO's project might legitimately be more important). This also lets the CIO push back on the COO for you when necessary (let your boss work for you, making you successful is his job). Lastly it gives the CIO the opportunity to assign the COO's project to someone else who has the bandwidth to do it while preserving your ability to complete your original projects.

I would not be happy with an employee telling someone they will not work on something, that's ultimately my call not theirs and they may not have sufficient visibility to company objectives to be able to set an accurate priority.
User avatar
Ged
Posts: 3945
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: Roke

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Ged »

I was in a similar situation like that last year. I decided to retire. I'm much happier now.
User avatar
bertie wooster
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:14 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by bertie wooster »

livesoft wrote:If you are a manager, then why don't you manage the COO and the CIO to get
1. A huge raise
2. Incredible bonuses
3. More staff to complete the work they want done
4. More vacation days
5. A better work environment
6. Etc.
I don't see how this comment helps the OP.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by TomatoTomahto »

bertie wooster wrote:
livesoft wrote:If you are a manager, then why don't you manage the COO and the CIO to get
1. A huge raise
2. Incredible bonuses
3. More staff to complete the work they want done
4. More vacation days
5. A better work environment
6. Etc.
I don't see how this comment helps the OP.
Good managers can manage. You can manage up (manage the boss), manage sideways (manage your peers), or manage down (manage the people who work for you).

I used to work with many people who ONLY managed up. I hated them, but it worked out okay from their vantage point.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
User avatar
BolderBoy
Posts: 6754
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:16 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by BolderBoy »

kithwang wrote:Would you quit over someone like the COO in your company that you meet weekly with? I don't know why the COO has meetings with me when he can't even direct my projects, take responsibility or lead my projects. He doesn't have the technical knowledge on completing a project.
I think these two people are gaming you and you are allowing it. Don't expect a serious bonus next time, either; they'll figure out a reason.

As a test, you might have a sit-down with both of them and let them know you are being wooed by another company but you'll stay with them for a BIG raise - like huge; 50%, and see what is their reaction.

I did this three times in 1990 and my employer matched my "offers" each time (bumping my income up by 150% over 7 months.) When I approached them the fourth time they refused, so I gave my notice and took a job for a 100% increase over the 150% I had gotten already. The previous employer went belly up the next year, so I was glad I got out when I did.
2stepsbehind
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:03 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by 2stepsbehind »

Quickfoot wrote:
Every two months, the COO wants me to do a side project. I told him no, I will not do projects that deviates from the CIO's plan. COO is surprised every time and I reminded him yet again that my performance bonus was hurt by doing his projects last year.
No is the wrong answer and is going to hurt your career eventually and telling the CIO you will will not do work will hurt it now. The last thing you want to tell management is you will not do something, you can however help them make good decisions.

The answer you should be giving him is to check with the CIO because the CIO sets your priorities. This gives you the opportunity to explain to the CIO what other work wont get done and lets him assign a priority (the COO's project might legitimately be more important). This also lets the CIO push back on the COO for you when necessary (let your boss work for you, making you successful is his job). Lastly it gives the CIO the opportunity to assign the COO's project to someone else who has the bandwidth to do it while preserving your ability to complete your original projects.

I would not be happy with an employee telling someone they will not work on something, that's ultimately my call not theirs and they may not have sufficient visibility to company objectives to be able to set an accurate priority.
I agree with the bolded. A flat "no" will make you look like you aren't a team player. Instead,as leonard suggests, you should simply tell the COO that you'll discuss the matter with the CIO and see what priority that project should take as against existing projects.
2stepsbehind
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:03 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by 2stepsbehind »

BolderBoy wrote:
kithwang wrote:Would you quit over someone like the COO in your company that you meet weekly with? I don't know why the COO has meetings with me when he can't even direct my projects, take responsibility or lead my projects. He doesn't have the technical knowledge on completing a project.
I think these two people are gaming you and you are allowing it. Don't expect a serious bonus next time, either; they'll figure out a reason.

As a test, you might have a sit-down with both of them and let them know you are being wooed by another company but you'll stay with them for a BIG raise - like huge; 50%, and see what is their reaction.

I did this three times in 1990 and my employer matched my "offers" each time (bumping my income up by 150% over 7 months.) When I approached them the fourth time they refused, so I gave my notice and took a job for a 100% increase over the 150% I had gotten already. The previous employer went belly up the next year, so I was glad I got out when I did.
Sounds like a sure way to engender goodwill........
Gropes & Ray
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Gropes & Ray »

You only have two bosses? On my best days I have three, and each thinks they're the only one. And they all think I'm lazy because I don't have their projects turned around in 24 hours, because they have no concept of how much I work. Also, this year I will get reviewed by up to 8 different people, and most of them haven't spoken to me all year.
User avatar
BolderBoy
Posts: 6754
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:16 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by BolderBoy »

Gropes & Ray wrote:You only have two bosses? On my best days I have three, and each thinks they're the only one. And they all think I'm lazy because I don't have their projects turned around in 24 hours, because they have no concept of how much I work. Also, this year I will get reviewed by up to 8 different people, and most of them haven't spoken to me all year.
Sounds like a great job. Do you get up in the morning and just can't wait to get to work? During my entire career (one occupation) anytime I didn't have that verve, it was time to rekindle it or move on. I figured I owed it to my employers over the years, to be revved up about working for them. And I expected no less from them, else...
User avatar
Clearly_Irrational
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Clearly_Irrational »

2stepsbehind wrote:I agree with the bolded. A flat "no" will make you look like you aren't a team player. Instead,as leonard suggests, you should simply tell the COO that you'll discuss the matter with the CIO and see what priority that project should take as against existing projects.
This is the right answer. Sometimes it can even be more fun, especially if you know the project is going to get a low priority. You can be a completely helpful, cheerful team player while still essentially telling him to take a hike by using the right business language.
AddingUp
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:12 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by AddingUp »

Sounds like the games have begun! Are you a lot younger? Do they see you as vulnerable?

As a LBYM BoggleHead, you most likely have options. When I've encountered this kind of behavior in the past, I did what I could to resolve it, but oftentimes, a solution is not possible. It never gets better. Other "stuff" is going on with these two. I'd get my ducks in a row and leave as soon as you can.
epitomist
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:00 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by epitomist »

Leonard and others have it right. When someone throws a punch at you, you don't punch his fist with your first to stop it. Such actions of force on force only hurt both parties involved.

Instead, bob, weave and deflect.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18502
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I have to do this every day. Not only do I get projects from my boss but form his boss and his boss' boss. When I get a new task, I inform my boss about the task and amount of time I expect it will take, then I ask for an email telling me exactly what my priorities are. I keep the emails so that when the higher up asks me why I have not completed his project, I can then throw my boss under the bus.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by PatrickA5 »

This post reminded me of my mega-corp career and why I'm happy I'm done with it. Having several people that all think they are your boss really sucks. That's stressful, because you don't really want to make them mad, but at some point there needs to be a prioritization of duties. What I ended up doing was ask my "real" boss if he wanted me to be doing things for my pretend bosses and if so prioritize it in writing. My real boss would tell me not to do what my pretend bosses wanted. Of course, that worked well until one of my pretend bosses became my real boss. Fortunately, I was at the point where I could retire. I feel for you.
Dave55
Posts: 2017
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Dave55 »

I would tell them both you will only report to one boss and take direction/orders from only one boss. Then give them 1 day to decide who that will be. Get it in writing.
I also like what BolderBoy said about you having a higher offer elsewhere (especially if you are willing to walk).
Dave
"Reality always wins, your only job is to get in touch with it." Wilfred Bion
Traveler
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Traveler »

BolderBoy wrote:
kithwang wrote:Would you quit over someone like the COO in your company that you meet weekly with? I don't know why the COO has meetings with me when he can't even direct my projects, take responsibility or lead my projects. He doesn't have the technical knowledge on completing a project.
I think these two people are gaming you and you are allowing it. Don't expect a serious bonus next time, either; they'll figure out a reason.

As a test, you might have a sit-down with both of them and let them know you are being wooed by another company but you'll stay with them for a BIG raise - like huge; 50%, and see what is their reaction.

I did this three times in 1990 and my employer matched my "offers" each time (bumping my income up by 150% over 7 months.) When I approached them the fourth time they refused, so I gave my notice and took a job for a 100% increase over the 150% I had gotten already. The previous employer went belly up the next year, so I was glad I got out when I did.
So you're saying that within the same year, you increased your salary five-fold? Example: If you started out making $25K and then got three large bonuses totaling 150% of that, you would have been at $62.5K and then you doubled your salary when you went to a new company so you were then making $125K??? Or double those numbers if you were making $50K to start with. Those numbers just don't seem to make sense to me to go from $25K to 125K, or from $50K to $250K in the same year. I must be in the wrong line of work.
User avatar
Christine_NM
Posts: 2796
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:13 am
Location: New Mexico

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Christine_NM »

You can try for another job but it might not be any better.

I guess I'd quit if the two bosses don't accept your prioritization of projects and annually ding you for not being able to do everything immediately. This could be a failure to communicate, or it could be an ongoing strategy to get the most work out of you for the least money. Next performance review should tell you. If they are still trying to blame you, you might as well walk.
16% cash 49% stock 35% bond. Retired, w/d rate 2.5%
Topic Author
kithwang
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by kithwang »

I'm usually very diplomatic and not say outright no to a project. The COO lost my trust February. BUT as an employee I should be polite to him.

I do think it is a good idea, to take the project requests down and ask the CIO if he wants me change direction instead of flat out say no.

Next performance review is January 2014. I can start looking for a job in January and decide if it is worth staying. They can make up a lot of reasons why I don't get an excellent bonus as some responses mentioned.

My family live below our means. We save my income and live off my husband's income. I want to see if they deliver during bonus time when I deliver on my CIO's expectations. I had 8 bosses (like the other poster) in the past at another job. So this job is better. I make enough money alone to support our family. Since there's no perfect job, I wonder if it best just do grin and bear it.
leonard
Posts: 5993
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by leonard »

kithwang wrote:I'm usually very diplomatic and not say outright no to a project. The COO lost my trust February. BUT as an employee I should be polite to him.

I do think it is a good idea, to take the project requests down and ask the CIO if he wants me change direction instead of flat out say no.

Next performance review is January 2014. I can start looking for a job in January and decide if it is worth staying. They can make up a lot of reasons why I don't get an excellent bonus as some responses mentioned.

My family live below our means. We save my income and live off my husband's income. I want to see if they deliver during bonus time when I deliver on my CIO's expectations. I had 8 bosses (like the other poster) in the past at another job. So this job is better. I make enough money alone to support our family. Since there's no perfect job, I wonder if it best just do grin and bear it.
Honestly - I worked in a large software company - and many Exec's did this kind of thing constantly. They want what they want. They don't want to hear "no". And, they want someone else to figure out how to get it for them. They don't want to be accountable at all for the logistics of getting it done.

To sum up - I think you will run in to this in any business. "Managing up" is a skill that needs constant work to keep Sr Managements expectations in line with what can actually get done.

Other (unsolicited) advice - about 3 months out from your next review and bonus - start having direct conversations with your boss about your performance and your expectations around bonus. If he is evasive, non-commital, or tries to avoid it - you may still have a problem and should start looking for a different job to get the comp you want.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
rjbraun
Posts: 2271
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:22 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by rjbraun »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
bertie wooster wrote:
livesoft wrote:If you are a manager, then why don't you manage the COO and the CIO to get
1. A huge raise
2. Incredible bonuses
3. More staff to complete the work they want done
4. More vacation days
5. A better work environment
6. Etc.
I don't see how this comment helps the OP.
Good managers can manage. You can manage up (manage the boss), manage sideways (manage your peers), or manage down (manage the people who work for you).

I used to work with many people who ONLY managed up. I hated them, but it worked out okay from their vantage point.
I'm pretty much with bertie wooster on this one. I'm a manager and within the context of my current work environment, there is absolutely no way I or virtually anyone else could accomplish most if even any of 1-6 above. So, even if I take the listing with a grain (or two or three) of salt, based on experience gained at various firms over the years, privately-held, publicly-held mega-corps and the not-for-profit sector (a major university and state government) one would have to be a huge "rainmaker" at his or her firm to even have a shot at getting most of the things listed.

There aren't enough "good managers", in my experience, but someone would have to be absolutely and incredibly exceptional to command the things from the list, in my opinion. That said, I'm all ears for pointers from others on how to swing "incredible" bonuses, "huge" raises, additional staff and whatnot. :beer
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by Lynette »

/////
Last edited by Lynette on Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
sans souliers
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:38 pm
Location: By the Quinnipiac

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by sans souliers »

Several years ago, I was in a similar situation. Our factory had gone through management cutbacks, so I ended up with a job supervising 3 production departments. I answered to two bosses. One was not suited to upper management, so his direct reports were carrying his work load (I was 1 of his three subordinates) and my other boss was a micro-manager.
Your review meeting with the COO and the CIO brought it all back in my memory. It was a time where my own confidence in my abilities started to slip. I lost sleep and I felt they were both tag-teaming me, with one taking over when the other one grew tired of the game.

When time came for my second review, the two of them had prepared a presentation to list the disappointments I had been responsible for, in their view. It was not a comfortable first half of meeting, but when my time to respond came, I apologized for my shortcomings and told them I would resign.
Their boss was the VP of operations and would have to meet with me before I would depart the company, and my two bosses were not going to provide me with that moment. I left the review with assurances from both my bosses that they would provide me with everything I needed to get product out the door, and they would stay out of my way as long as that objective was met.

They were both sweating visibly when I left the room. Later, one of them came to ask me if I really meant what I said about quitting. I told hIm I had not thought of quitting until that very moment and I felt better when the words came out - I just knew it was better for my sanity.

We never spoke of that bad time ever again. I retired from that company recently, and I still have all my marbles. Most of them, anyway. Live below your means.
Sometimes pessimism leaves me pretty well prepared for when things don't go my way, and pleasantly surprised when they do.
Topic Author
kithwang
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by kithwang »

Thanks for all the feedback. I couldn't post at work and risk my bosses reading my post.

I'm dismayed to see that others have been to this as well. I have lived below my means and saved bonuses for the last 10 years. Good luck to those still have to deal with these issues. Hope to retire healthy one day!
golfvestor
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:50 pm

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by golfvestor »

Your company sounds dysfunctional. Well run organizations maintain a unified chain of command. Unfortunately, I don't have any good advice on how to fix your managers.
User avatar
burt
Posts: 852
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:47 am

Re: Would you quit over the pretend boss

Post by burt »

leonard wrote:Exec's don't like being told "no".

they don't want you to simply lay the problems back at their feet. They DO want you to propose a way of working through this that solves problems and is visible.
I am "disappointed" when someone stops by and sh*ts on my desk. And I tell them so... gently.

burt
Post Reply