Death of family member - what to do financially
Death of family member - what to do financially
My sister in law ( my wife's sister ) recently passed away at age 61. Her husband is completely overwrought and is having trouble just getting by each day. We are trying to help from the Northeast but his living in Virginia presents a lot of logistical challenges.
Gathering all of the financial documents he is going to need to properly manage all of the affairs is overwhelming for him. His wife was the financial manager in the family and he has little idea of what he has, needs, or what he needs to look for. He has her death certificate and their marriage certificateThey were both collecting social security - him for retirement, her for what be a job related disability. We are not sure.
I am asking for your help in advising what he / we need to search for. This is what we know:
1. There was a life insurance policy of $50k. The husband asserts that there was at least one policy of $100k. He may be wrong. Is there a way to find out what outstanding life insurance policies may be?
2. She has a 401k of approximately $160k. We presume he is the beneficiary but their marriage had some troubling periods. How do we find out who the beneficiary is?
3. Is he entitled to any social security other than the $225 death benefit?
4. She may have had savings accounts in her name which she mat not have shared with her husband. She was prone to that all of her life as she always wanted some money to buy things, usually for her nieces and nephews.
5. Their home is jointly owned so the title goes to the husband directly, we assume?
6. Is the husband responsible for credit card debt for cards that were in his wife's name only?
7. He found a key to a safe deposit box. We contacted the bank ( the key was in a packet with the bank's name on it ) which was taken over by the original bank. They assert that they have no record of the deceased having an account there. She may have emptied the safe deposit box or not. Is there a way to track this type of stuff?
8. How do we find out if she had a death benefit from her employer?
9. She may have been entitled to a pension which she did not submit for yet. How do we find that out?
With respect to attorneys out there, please understand there is no acrimony intended here but do we need to have a lawyer pursue this for him? Is there an alternative service that can be used?
I'd also appreciate your advice on anything not listed above.
Thanks,
Jojay
Gathering all of the financial documents he is going to need to properly manage all of the affairs is overwhelming for him. His wife was the financial manager in the family and he has little idea of what he has, needs, or what he needs to look for. He has her death certificate and their marriage certificateThey were both collecting social security - him for retirement, her for what be a job related disability. We are not sure.
I am asking for your help in advising what he / we need to search for. This is what we know:
1. There was a life insurance policy of $50k. The husband asserts that there was at least one policy of $100k. He may be wrong. Is there a way to find out what outstanding life insurance policies may be?
2. She has a 401k of approximately $160k. We presume he is the beneficiary but their marriage had some troubling periods. How do we find out who the beneficiary is?
3. Is he entitled to any social security other than the $225 death benefit?
4. She may have had savings accounts in her name which she mat not have shared with her husband. She was prone to that all of her life as she always wanted some money to buy things, usually for her nieces and nephews.
5. Their home is jointly owned so the title goes to the husband directly, we assume?
6. Is the husband responsible for credit card debt for cards that were in his wife's name only?
7. He found a key to a safe deposit box. We contacted the bank ( the key was in a packet with the bank's name on it ) which was taken over by the original bank. They assert that they have no record of the deceased having an account there. She may have emptied the safe deposit box or not. Is there a way to track this type of stuff?
8. How do we find out if she had a death benefit from her employer?
9. She may have been entitled to a pension which she did not submit for yet. How do we find that out?
With respect to attorneys out there, please understand there is no acrimony intended here but do we need to have a lawyer pursue this for him? Is there an alternative service that can be used?
I'd also appreciate your advice on anything not listed above.
Thanks,
Jojay
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Many of your questions are legal matters, best handled by a lawyer. You might also consider the services of a professional fiduciary, i.e., bank trust department for the non-legal functions.jojay wrote:With respect to attorneys out there, please understand there is no acrimony intended here but do we need to have a lawyer pursue this for him? Is there an alternative service that can be used?
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
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Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Have you read this website regarding probate in the state of VA?
http://www.virginiaestatelaw.com/
Also check www.missingmoney.com for unclaimed money, property, safe deposit boxes.
You will probably need to make a trip to visit to get this process started, but maybe reading ahead would help everyone involved. I'm sure more things will be uncovered in the days to come. Sorry to hear of your loss.
http://www.virginiaestatelaw.com/
Also check www.missingmoney.com for unclaimed money, property, safe deposit boxes.
You will probably need to make a trip to visit to get this process started, but maybe reading ahead would help everyone involved. I'm sure more things will be uncovered in the days to come. Sorry to hear of your loss.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
In managing estates, I've always found the decedent's mail, income tax returns and checkbook usually offer the best clues to assets and debts. In this case the employer should also be contacted.
Gill
Gill
Last edited by Gill on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Gill wrote:Many of your questions are legal matters, best handled by a lawyer. You might also consider the services of a professional fiduciary, i.e., bank trust department for the non-legal functions.jojay wrote:With respect to attorneys out there, please understand there is no acrimony intended here but do we need to have a lawyer pursue this for him? Is there an alternative service that can be used?
Gill
+1
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Because of the distance and the fact that you probably will eventually need a trust/estates attorney, I would suggest beginning to find prospective attorneys there to interview. My condolences to the family.
Edit: corrects to type of attorney.
Edit: corrects to type of attorney.
Last edited by Fallible on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
My dad passed away a couple years ago and my mom was stressed about figuring out all the similar financial questions. Luckily mom was the finance one of the two and knew where all the paperwork and things were. Having the death certificate was key, as they all wanted that (a copy). Then LOTS of time making phone calls. Have him start calling all the places to see what to do. My mom just made a list of all the folks she needed to contact and went one at a time... crossed them off as they were taken care of.
The social security and house stuff is easy enough. The credit cards and maybe 401k depending on beneficiaries... I'm not sure there. Then these unknowns about life insurance policies, savings accounts, safe deposit keys to nowhere... good luck there. Did she not keep a box or file of paperwork for all this stuff for them? Searching the house for all that stuff may need to move toward the top of his list.
One day at a time...
The social security and house stuff is easy enough. The credit cards and maybe 401k depending on beneficiaries... I'm not sure there. Then these unknowns about life insurance policies, savings accounts, safe deposit keys to nowhere... good luck there. Did she not keep a box or file of paperwork for all this stuff for them? Searching the house for all that stuff may need to move toward the top of his list.
One day at a time...
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
He needs a trust and estates lawyer, not an elder law attorney.Fallible wrote:Because of the distance and the fact that you probably will eventually need an elder law attorney, I would suggest beginning to find prospective attorneys there to interview. My condolences to the family.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment |
One advises and gives advice |
One should follow the principle of investing one's principal
- Peter Foley
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Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
In addition to looking at entries in the check and checking the mail, I would review income tax forms over the past few years. If there were any additional bank account there should have been an interest statement.
As to the safe deposit box key. I had two keys to my box and forgot to surrender one when we changed banks. There is usually an annual fee for a box so you may be able to confirm that through a checking account register.
As to the safe deposit box key. I had two keys to my box and forgot to surrender one when we changed banks. There is usually an annual fee for a box so you may be able to confirm that through a checking account register.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
You or your wife may need to go to Virginia for a week or two to look for financial information in the house, on her computer (hopefully the email and files are accessible), and set up a system to handle incoming financial postal mail and email. Also to look through back email.
He needs to phone Social Security to get payments stopped and ask what he is entitled to.
The bank may not have a record of an account, but she may have had a safe deposit box without having an account. I believe there is a fee to the tune of hundreds of dollars for not returning a key if you give up a safe deposit box, since not doing so requires a locksmith drilling in to replace the lock, so likely there is a box. It may be at one of several branches. Look for a check made out to the bank or a credit card payment to it. A visit in person to the bank may be the effective way to do this. The box may contain a will and a trust.
The mail will help - financial institutions will be sending statements. Note that if no activity takes place in an account, statements may not be sent every month. It may be quarterly or (I don't know the furthest limit) it could it even be annually.
She may have copies of income tax information, federal and state, somewhere in the house, both past returns and stuff for the current year. The IRS can send copies of past returns; you probably have to send them a death certificate at least to get those.
What about a will and possibly a trust, do those exist? If unknown, if there is a family attorney he or she might know.
Many towns and cities have property tax information on line including the payment situation, or the town hall can help with this information.
Call the HR dept of the employer to ask about any benefits including health insurance and an employer provided life insurance policy.
Ask the agent who issued the $50K policy if that is the only one.
As to your question about credit card debt in her name, I assume he is planning on paying bills she owes.
You need an attorney to answer some of these questions. A CPA knowledgeable about estate matters, not just any CPA, is needed to prepare taxes and may be be able to help the husband find records. I wonder if she had a CPA do the annual taxes, in which case he or she would have records, including of which financial institutions were reporting earnings.
I hope people reading this who manage the family finances and have not clued in DS about them contemplate this situation.
He needs to phone Social Security to get payments stopped and ask what he is entitled to.
The bank may not have a record of an account, but she may have had a safe deposit box without having an account. I believe there is a fee to the tune of hundreds of dollars for not returning a key if you give up a safe deposit box, since not doing so requires a locksmith drilling in to replace the lock, so likely there is a box. It may be at one of several branches. Look for a check made out to the bank or a credit card payment to it. A visit in person to the bank may be the effective way to do this. The box may contain a will and a trust.
The mail will help - financial institutions will be sending statements. Note that if no activity takes place in an account, statements may not be sent every month. It may be quarterly or (I don't know the furthest limit) it could it even be annually.
She may have copies of income tax information, federal and state, somewhere in the house, both past returns and stuff for the current year. The IRS can send copies of past returns; you probably have to send them a death certificate at least to get those.
What about a will and possibly a trust, do those exist? If unknown, if there is a family attorney he or she might know.
Many towns and cities have property tax information on line including the payment situation, or the town hall can help with this information.
Call the HR dept of the employer to ask about any benefits including health insurance and an employer provided life insurance policy.
Ask the agent who issued the $50K policy if that is the only one.
As to your question about credit card debt in her name, I assume he is planning on paying bills she owes.
You need an attorney to answer some of these questions. A CPA knowledgeable about estate matters, not just any CPA, is needed to prepare taxes and may be be able to help the husband find records. I wonder if she had a CPA do the annual taxes, in which case he or she would have records, including of which financial institutions were reporting earnings.
I hope people reading this who manage the family finances and have not clued in DS about them contemplate this situation.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Yes, you are right. OP, I'm sorry for the misinformation.Gill wrote:He needs a trust and estates lawyer, not an elder law attorney.Fallible wrote:Because of the distance and the fact that you probably will eventually need an elder law attorney, I would suggest beginning to find prospective attorneys there to interview. My condolences to the family.
Gill
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
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Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
I'm not sure why people are suggesting you need an attorney. Very few of the questions you asked actually require an attorney's help and best believe if an attorney helps s/he would charge you a heck of a lot of money to do what you can do yourself. Think on the order of $150-350 per hour.
Unless he's struggling for money the most important thing he needs to do now is contact social security so that they stop paying out her benefits.
Then to the extent possible if you and your wife could come down for a long weekend my guess is you could cover a lot of ground. Have him order 10+ copies of the death certificate in the interim.
Unless he's struggling for money the most important thing he needs to do now is contact social security so that they stop paying out her benefits.
Then to the extent possible if you and your wife could come down for a long weekend my guess is you could cover a lot of ground. Have him order 10+ copies of the death certificate in the interim.
jojay wrote:
I am asking for your help in advising what he / we need to search for. This is what we know:
1. There was a life insurance policy of $50k. The husband asserts that there was at least one policy of $100k. He may be wrong. Is there a way to find out what outstanding life insurance policies may be?
Not a "legal question." Look through bank records for recurring payments to insurance companies. Look through records at home. Ask the insurance company of the 50k: what about the other policy? Call the other major insurers etc. I am unaware of a central resource for this.
2. She has a 401k of approximately $160k. We presume he is the beneficiary but their marriage had some troubling periods. How do we find out who the beneficiary is?
Not necessarily a legal question. Ask her employer(s). Unless he signed away his interests, chances are he is the beneficiary
3. Is he entitled to any social security other than the $225 death benefit?
Not necessarily a legal question. Was her payment higher or lower than his? How old is he? How long has he taken social security
4. She may have had savings accounts in her name which she mat not have shared with her husband. She was prone to that all of her life as she always wanted some money to buy things, usually for her nieces and nephews.
Not necessarily a legal question. try missingmoney or your state's equivalent for unclaimed funds. Try ordering a free chexsystem reports to see all the places that inquired about her bank history and follow up with the respective institutions. Given what you wrote, those accounts might have beneficiary designations to I wouldn't assume the husband will be entitled to them.
5. Their home is jointly owned so the title goes to the husband directly, we assume?
Somewhat legal question, but not one that necessarily requires an attorney. Go to the county recorder (or see if it your county has the info online) and see what the deed is registered as. If joint tenancy with rights of survivorship, ask them the proper procedure. If something else, still ask, but you may need an attorney to help follow through.
6. Is the husband responsible for credit card debt for cards that were in his wife's name only?
No, but her estate likely is. More info needed to properly advise. How much debt are we talking about? If it is a large figure, it may be worth getting an attorney on board. If it is a smaller figure, it might be worth paying the debt just to save your brother-in-law from dealing with the harassment.
7. He found a key to a safe deposit box. We contacted the bank ( the key was in a packet with the bank's name on it ) which was taken over by the original bank. They assert that they have no record of the deceased having an account there. She may have emptied the safe deposit box or not. Is there a way to track this type of stuff?
This one is tricky. Did you go in person? Try all versions of her name (was she the administrator of someone else's will/ could it be someone else's box?) Chances are the bank will need a death certificate and a letter of administration before giving you access, but they should at least be able to tell you whether or not the key corresponds
8. How do we find out if she had a death benefit from her employer?
Contact the employer. Most employers are happy to do what they can to help. If you feel like you may be missing something do google searches for ::employer:: death benefit/survivor/beneficiary and see if anything comes up
9. She may have been entitled to a pension which she did not submit for yet. How do we find that out?
see above
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Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
I'm also going to recommend an attorney.2stepsbehind wrote:I'm not sure why people are suggesting you need an attorney. Very few of the questions you asked actually require an attorney's help and best believe if an attorney helps s/he would charge you a heck of a lot of money to do what you can do yourself. Think on the order of $150-350 per hour.
Unless he's struggling for money the most important thing he needs to do now is contact social security so that they stop paying out her benefits.
Then to the extent possible if you and your wife could come down for a long weekend my guess is you could cover a lot of ground. Have him order 10+ copies of the death certificate in the interim.
jojay wrote:
I am asking for your help in advising what he / we need to search for. This is what we know:
1. There was a life insurance policy of $50k. The husband asserts that there was at least one policy of $100k. He may be wrong. Is there a way to find out what outstanding life insurance policies may be?
Not a "legal question." Look through bank records for recurring payments to insurance companies. Look through records at home. Ask the insurance company of the 50k: what about the other policy? Call the other major insurers etc. I am unaware of a central resource for this.
2. She has a 401k of approximately $160k. We presume he is the beneficiary but their marriage had some troubling periods. How do we find out who the beneficiary is?
Not necessarily a legal question. Ask her employer(s). Unless he signed away his interests, chances are he is the beneficiary
3. Is he entitled to any social security other than the $225 death benefit?
Not necessarily a legal question. Was her payment higher or lower than his? How old is he? How long has he taken social security
4. She may have had savings accounts in her name which she mat not have shared with her husband. She was prone to that all of her life as she always wanted some money to buy things, usually for her nieces and nephews.
Not necessarily a legal question. try missingmoney or your state's equivalent for unclaimed funds. Try ordering a free chexsystem reports to see all the places that inquired about her bank history and follow up with the respective institutions. Given what you wrote, those accounts might have beneficiary designations to I wouldn't assume the husband will be entitled to them.
5. Their home is jointly owned so the title goes to the husband directly, we assume?
Somewhat legal question, but not one that necessarily requires an attorney. Go to the county recorder (or see if it your county has the info online) and see what the deed is registered as. If joint tenancy with rights of survivorship, ask them the proper procedure. If something else, still ask, but you may need an attorney to help follow through.
6. Is the husband responsible for credit card debt for cards that were in his wife's name only?
No, but her estate likely is. More info needed to properly advise. How much debt are we talking about? If it is a large figure, it may be worth getting an attorney on board. If it is a smaller figure, it might be worth paying the debt just to save your brother-in-law from dealing with the harassment.
7. He found a key to a safe deposit box. We contacted the bank ( the key was in a packet with the bank's name on it ) which was taken over by the original bank. They assert that they have no record of the deceased having an account there. She may have emptied the safe deposit box or not. Is there a way to track this type of stuff?
This one is tricky. Did you go in person? Try all versions of her name (was she the administrator of someone else's will/ could it be someone else's box?) Chances are the bank will need a death certificate and a letter of administration before giving you access, but they should at least be able to tell you whether or not the key corresponds
8. How do we find out if she had a death benefit from her employer?
Contact the employer. Most employers are happy to do what they can to help. If you feel like you may be missing something do google searches for ::employer:: death benefit/survivor/beneficiary and see if anything comes up
9. She may have been entitled to a pension which she did not submit for yet. How do we find that out?
see above
This is my personal experience.
I lost my wonderful husband of 28 years December of 2012. I am just NOW recoverying from the devastation. and I mean literally. It took me MONTHS to even get out of bed, let alone attempt to contact anyone. If it not for my sister and my best friend who happens to be an attorney, although not a estate one, I would have lost every thing. I didn't pay the mortgage, did not care that there was one, I didn't contact his employer to find out about his 401K, his pension any thing.
I was walking around with a 900K dollar life insurance check in my pocketbook and my lights got turned off.
Luckily my two sons were away at college so they didn't see the mess I had become.
Op, is there any way some one can get out to Virginia if only for a few days to at least make heads or tails of the situation
I know exactly what your BIL is going through, I call the day my hubby died as my personal 9/11. every thing in my life was destroyed. I didn't give a rat's patooie if I ended up homeless under a bridge. right now he is not going to be able to handle any thing.
Please get him a trusted advisor or attorney who will go the extra mile for him. It is worth any amount of money the lawyer will charge. It is not a stretch for me to say I would have easily tried to do harm to myself if I had to process the fact that my Mikie was gone.
"He who dies with the most toys is still, nonetheless dead"
- patriciamgr2
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Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
https://www.acli.com/Consumers/Life%20I ... 0Tips.aspx contains some information on finding lost insurance policies.
You need to locate the will and any trust documents. contact the local county offices (start with Recorder of Deeds) to determine how the small estate administration process works. Obtain Letters of Administration which authorize executor to carry out the will; obtain 10-15 certified copies of death certificate; as another poster noted, ask county office how title is held & what documents are needed to transfer title assuming it's held in joint tenancy w rt survivorship (that should be done to streamline the husband's eventual disposition of the property). If there are multiple beneficiaries (especially those with whom executor does not have a good relationship), hiring an attorney may be prudent. The more information/paperwork you've gathered, the less paralegal time will be used up.
I heartily endorse the idea of using checkbook/online bill pay services/tax returns to get clues on financial holdings and insurance policies. CDs can be cashed in upon death of owner, so gather that information promptly. Other points: (1) check to see if social security survivor benefit could allow a suspend strategy on his part (post a specific question when you gather information--the Forum has wonderful resource people, but you need to ask a specific question after doing your own research on the social security website); and (2) check state law (start with Nolo.com) to determine whether spouse is liable on credit card bills (her estate is likely to be liable--so separate bank accounts, etc. are likely to be fair game). Absolutely, contact her current and past employer's human resources departments and her union (if any) to determine the beneficiary on file for the 401(k) [what's on file governs, sadly] & what benefits her survivor should receive--a pension may not have a death benefit unless the wife elected a joint & survivor benefit. If she died in advance of the date election was possible, check the pension plan language (usually online) about what happens; don't just rely on HR for that.
In my experience, when a spouse who handled finances dies, often the other spouse is overwhelmed & has not really looked for information even though it's there. If you can go to their home, start by looking through files & computer. This is a good reminder for each of us to leave a clear outline of our financial & legal situation for survivors, and--very important--to note what assets we do not have [e.g. no life insurance; no safe deposit box].
Please accept my family's deepest sympathy during your time of loss.
You need to locate the will and any trust documents. contact the local county offices (start with Recorder of Deeds) to determine how the small estate administration process works. Obtain Letters of Administration which authorize executor to carry out the will; obtain 10-15 certified copies of death certificate; as another poster noted, ask county office how title is held & what documents are needed to transfer title assuming it's held in joint tenancy w rt survivorship (that should be done to streamline the husband's eventual disposition of the property). If there are multiple beneficiaries (especially those with whom executor does not have a good relationship), hiring an attorney may be prudent. The more information/paperwork you've gathered, the less paralegal time will be used up.
I heartily endorse the idea of using checkbook/online bill pay services/tax returns to get clues on financial holdings and insurance policies. CDs can be cashed in upon death of owner, so gather that information promptly. Other points: (1) check to see if social security survivor benefit could allow a suspend strategy on his part (post a specific question when you gather information--the Forum has wonderful resource people, but you need to ask a specific question after doing your own research on the social security website); and (2) check state law (start with Nolo.com) to determine whether spouse is liable on credit card bills (her estate is likely to be liable--so separate bank accounts, etc. are likely to be fair game). Absolutely, contact her current and past employer's human resources departments and her union (if any) to determine the beneficiary on file for the 401(k) [what's on file governs, sadly] & what benefits her survivor should receive--a pension may not have a death benefit unless the wife elected a joint & survivor benefit. If she died in advance of the date election was possible, check the pension plan language (usually online) about what happens; don't just rely on HR for that.
In my experience, when a spouse who handled finances dies, often the other spouse is overwhelmed & has not really looked for information even though it's there. If you can go to their home, start by looking through files & computer. This is a good reminder for each of us to leave a clear outline of our financial & legal situation for survivors, and--very important--to note what assets we do not have [e.g. no life insurance; no safe deposit box].
Please accept my family's deepest sympathy during your time of loss.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Small note--I found several places wanted an original death certificate and not just a copy, so I would recommend getting a few extra.
My condolences on your loss, and I'm glad you're able to help your BIL out in this difficult time.
My condolences on your loss, and I'm glad you're able to help your BIL out in this difficult time.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
I found out I could do some things right after the death but had trouble with a great deal of sorrow later on. All people are different in how they handle sorrow. So if you feel up to it try to do some of it now.
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Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
I actually think it is a good reminder that we shouldn't allow our spouses/significant others to be in the dark about finances. Too often on the board I see people who control all aspects of the family finances and give the excuse that they do so because their spouse has no interest in financial matters. In enabling such behavior you are just putting the burden on your kids to help unscramble the pieces once you've passed away and/or leaving your spouse vulnerable as a target for financial predators. While an outline is better than nothing, each person in the relationship should have a basic understanding of the household finances and how to manage them.patriciamgr2 wrote:
In my experience, when a spouse who handled finances dies, often the other spouse is overwhelmed & has not really looked for information even though it's there. If you can go to their home, start by looking through files & computer. This is a good reminder for each of us to leave a clear outline of our financial & legal situation for survivors, and--very important--to note what assets we do not have [e.g. no life insurance; no safe deposit box]..
OP- Please also accept my deepest sympathy during your time of loss.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
We inherited the estate of a friend who died last year. Although he had a will and we did find most of his important documents in a strongbox, it has been rather surprising how much of the resulting estate settlement has required legal management. Once someone is dead, the legal perspective shifts and now "the estate" is an entity holding all assets. Just tracking down accounts-even before moving the assets within to the estate beneficiary-may necessitate rather complicated paperwork that has to be done by an executor/lawyer. Requesting information from agencies such as the IRS, and of course banks, insurance companies, pension providers...all of this is not only time consuming and confusing, but often cannot simply be released to a relative or friend with no legal standing.
In our case, what we thought would be a simple and quick process is still ongoing a year later. However we did not know our friend had multiple brokerage and IRA accounts and hadn't paid income taxes for a decade. From the OP's statements about secrecy, holding separate accounts etc. the deceased may have left a very complicated estate. Get a lawyer, don't try to figure all this out on your own.
In our case, what we thought would be a simple and quick process is still ongoing a year later. However we did not know our friend had multiple brokerage and IRA accounts and hadn't paid income taxes for a decade. From the OP's statements about secrecy, holding separate accounts etc. the deceased may have left a very complicated estate. Get a lawyer, don't try to figure all this out on your own.
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- Location: North Carolina
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
+1. If possible, it would be great if you would be able to go to Virginia and help your SIL's husband get organized for this. A lawyer can help but getting things organized first will reduce the legal cost, plus there are many things he and you can do just as easily. Someone needs to go through their financial records and files to understand what needs to be done. You may well find things there that need to be acted upon: life insurance, bills, pension statements, etc. I assume the husband is executor of his wife's estate and will have to file probate. Whoever handles probate for the state can advise you on what they need for that process. I did probate for a small estate in VA and the clerk was very helpful to me. I also did probate of a larger estate in NC and they too were extremely helpful. If he has not done probate yet, it would be good if you went with him to make sure he and you understand what needs to be done. Once he has filed probate, he can then handle accounts or other things that were in her name only: bank accounts, 401k, life insurance, etc.lululu wrote:You or your wife may need to go to Virginia for a week or two to look for financial information in the house, on her computer (hopefully the email and files are accessible), and set up a system to handle incoming financial postal mail and email. Also to look through back email.
He needs to phone Social Security to get payments stopped and ask what he is entitled to.
The bank may not have a record of an account, but she may have had a safe deposit box without having an account. I believe there is a fee to the tune of hundreds of dollars for not returning a key if you give up a safe deposit box, since not doing so requires a locksmith drilling in to replace the lock, so likely there is a box. It may be at one of several branches. Look for a check made out to the bank or a credit card payment to it. A visit in person to the bank may be the effective way to do this. The box may contain a will and a trust.
The mail will help - financial institutions will be sending statements. Note that if no activity takes place in an account, statements may not be sent every month. It may be quarterly or (I don't know the furthest limit) it could it even be annually.
She may have copies of income tax information, federal and state, somewhere in the house, both past returns and stuff for the current year. The IRS can send copies of past returns; you probably have to send them a death certificate at least to get those.
What about a will and possibly a trust, do those exist? If unknown, if there is a family attorney he or she might know.
Many towns and cities have property tax information on line including the payment situation, or the town hall can help with this information.
Call the HR dept of the employer to ask about any benefits including health insurance and an employer provided life insurance policy.
Ask the agent who issued the $50K policy if that is the only one.
As to your question about credit card debt in her name, I assume he is planning on paying bills she owes.
You need an attorney to answer some of these questions. A CPA knowledgeable about estate matters, not just any CPA, is needed to prepare taxes and may be be able to help the husband find records. I wonder if she had a CPA do the annual taxes, in which case he or she would have records, including of which financial institutions were reporting earnings.
I hope people reading this who manage the family finances and have not clued in DS about them contemplate this situation.
One of first things to do is to inform SS of her death so they can stop sending checks.
Once he and you have got a good sense of what is involved, it would be good to go to an attorney and get his/her advice and assistance.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Though with low interest rates, some accounts could remain hidden (<$10 in interest, so no tax form).Peter Foley wrote:In addition to looking at entries in the check and checking the mail, I would review income tax forms over the past few years. If there were any additional bank account there should have been an interest statement.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Although a lawyer may well be/probably will be necessary for some things, the executor can do a lot. I was executor/trustee for my Mom's estate and was easily able to get information from the IRS and financial institutions. I did have to materialize about ten to twenty originals of the death certificate, but otherwise everyone I spoke to on the phone at those places told me what had to be done.pennywise wrote:We inherited the estate of a friend who died last year. Although he had a will and we did find most of his important documents in a strongbox, it has been rather surprising how much of the resulting estate settlement has required legal management. Once someone is dead, the legal perspective shifts and now "the estate" is an entity holding all assets. Just tracking down accounts-even before moving the assets within to the estate beneficiary-may necessitate rather complicated paperwork that has to be done by an executor/lawyer. Requesting information from agencies such as the IRS, and of course banks, insurance companies, pension providers...all of this is not only time consuming and confusing, but often cannot simply be released to a relative or friend with no legal standing.
In our case, what we thought would be a simple and quick process is still ongoing a year later. However we did not know our friend had multiple brokerage and IRA accounts and hadn't paid income taxes for a decade. From the OP's statements about secrecy, holding separate accounts etc. the deceased may have left a very complicated estate. Get a lawyer, don't try to figure all this out on your own.
You had a much more messy situation due to the tax returns not having been filed.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Good note. I checked the online unclaimed property website for our state for several years afterwards.happymob wrote:Though with low interest rates, some accounts could remain hidden (<$10 in interest, so no tax form).Peter Foley wrote:In addition to looking at entries in the check and checking the mail, I would review income tax forms over the past few years. If there were any additional bank account there should have been an interest statement.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
To which I will add, if DS can't be convinced to be interested, at least do a brain dump onto paper (easier to notice than a computer file) and keep a copy at home and in a safe deposit box.lululu wrote: I hope people reading this who manage the family finances and have not clued in DS about them contemplate this situation.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
It is interesting that so many folks are saying this. Unless they are hiding the death from "the authorities", SS has almost certainly been notified. There are a lot of rules and regs in place to make sure that "reporting agencies" have to notify SS of the death. The way he'll know is by looking at whatever direct deposit account the $$$ were going into, as SS will suck out the excess within a month or less.johnep wrote:One of first things to do is to inform SS of her death so they can stop sending checks.
Also, don't go crazy over the # of death certificates you get. Most places that want to "see" one, will return it to you, since they typically cost $10/each or more. I got 10 when my dad died and ended up with all 10 when his estate was closed.
Others have given very good advice, particularly about dealing with the grief aspects.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
Good news coming regarding finding any life insurance policies:
I heard California's State Controller, John Chiang, speak recently. He told how insurance companies had access to the Social Security Death Index and when they found out that one of their clients had died for whom they were making annuity payments, they automatically stopped the payments. Several states got together and said it wasn't fair, if they were going to stop paying out annuities automatically (ie, make / save money this way), they have to also start paying out life insurance benefits automatically when they have an insured who dies. As I understand it, this applies to the 10 largest insurance companies to start with and they are required to notify the beneficiary that they hold a policy for which a claim should be filed. This has supposedly taken place in the last few years and there was a thread a while back in which a boglehead had a relative who died and the family received one of these letters. He wondered if it was a scam.
Of course, this is a recent change and may not apply in all states yet or to all insurance companies yet. You could call VA's state controller to ask if it applies in their state and how many insurance companies are required to do this. And if the insurance had been term insurance for which monthly or quarterly payments were required and they had not been paid recently, the policy could have been cancelled.
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As far as all the places where the mom had accounts, don't forget that January brings all kinds of tax forms for many kinds of accounts as well as year-end statements. Someone should have the dad start stacking up all mail as it comes in for whoever will be paying the bills to go through if he is unable. You can also help start up automatic bill paying for him on mortgages, utilities, loans, credit cards, etc. Of course, you will have to ensure there is enough money in the checking account at all times for this. Go through the mom's check register for the last 2 or 3 years and put the amount paid each month in a spreadsheet. Those that recur regularly are ideal candidates for this.
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I am with the previous person who wondered why you have to see a lawyer. Is her estate subject to probate or does this couple tend to hold most things jointly? What do you want the lawyer to do? I doubt the lawyer (or staff) is going to call all banks or insurance companies and ask if the family had accounts. The lawyer will probably turn the question back to the family and ask where their assets are located. It seems that a family member can help the dad out for most of it and only see a lawyer when a legal issue arises.
I heard California's State Controller, John Chiang, speak recently. He told how insurance companies had access to the Social Security Death Index and when they found out that one of their clients had died for whom they were making annuity payments, they automatically stopped the payments. Several states got together and said it wasn't fair, if they were going to stop paying out annuities automatically (ie, make / save money this way), they have to also start paying out life insurance benefits automatically when they have an insured who dies. As I understand it, this applies to the 10 largest insurance companies to start with and they are required to notify the beneficiary that they hold a policy for which a claim should be filed. This has supposedly taken place in the last few years and there was a thread a while back in which a boglehead had a relative who died and the family received one of these letters. He wondered if it was a scam.
Of course, this is a recent change and may not apply in all states yet or to all insurance companies yet. You could call VA's state controller to ask if it applies in their state and how many insurance companies are required to do this. And if the insurance had been term insurance for which monthly or quarterly payments were required and they had not been paid recently, the policy could have been cancelled.
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As far as all the places where the mom had accounts, don't forget that January brings all kinds of tax forms for many kinds of accounts as well as year-end statements. Someone should have the dad start stacking up all mail as it comes in for whoever will be paying the bills to go through if he is unable. You can also help start up automatic bill paying for him on mortgages, utilities, loans, credit cards, etc. Of course, you will have to ensure there is enough money in the checking account at all times for this. Go through the mom's check register for the last 2 or 3 years and put the amount paid each month in a spreadsheet. Those that recur regularly are ideal candidates for this.
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I am with the previous person who wondered why you have to see a lawyer. Is her estate subject to probate or does this couple tend to hold most things jointly? What do you want the lawyer to do? I doubt the lawyer (or staff) is going to call all banks or insurance companies and ask if the family had accounts. The lawyer will probably turn the question back to the family and ask where their assets are located. It seems that a family member can help the dad out for most of it and only see a lawyer when a legal issue arises.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
+1BolderBoy wrote:It is interesting that so many folks are saying this. Unless they are hiding the death from "the authorities", SS has almost certainly been notified. There are a lot of rules and regs in place to make sure that "reporting agencies" have to notify SS of the death. The way he'll know is by looking at whatever direct deposit account the $$$ were going into, as SS will suck out the excess within a month or less.johnep wrote:One of first things to do is to inform SS of her death so they can stop sending checks.
Also, don't go crazy over the # of death certificates you get. Most places that want to "see" one, will return it to you, since they typically cost $10/each or more. I got 10 when my dad died and ended up with all 10 when his estate was closed.
Others have given very good advice, particularly about dealing with the grief aspects.
I settled a relative's estate and asked for each death certificate back and then sent it on to another company where I had to file another claim. Start with the biggest/most important claims first.
Social Security does not have to be notified regarding a death in all cases. They ARE NOT the nation's official death notice repository. They only need to be notified if the person who died was receiving benefits and the funeral home/county of death also reports the death eventually if it is for an older person. I think it is more important to notify all the credit reporting agencies so they can lock the person's account. Who wants to deal with fraud on an account for a relative who died?
As you help the dad with this, also keep notes as to what you find and where. No use starting over at the beginning when he dies.
To get answers to your original questions, someone needs to call the places listed and ask them the question, not ask us.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
Re: Death of family member - what to do financially
They cost $15 apiece when I got them, and it took 6-8 weeks to get them back. I felt considerably ahead having sent them all out at once.celia wrote: I settled a relative's estate and asked for each death certificate back and then sent it on to another company where I had to file another claim. Start with the biggest/most important claims first.