College & PhD vs $250k working
College & PhD vs $250k working
Our son just graduated from UW/Madison... in Chemistry with German minor.
He is now heading to Caltech for 5years pursuing a PhD in chemistry.
BTW - he is not a total Big Bang Theory nerd
and does have other interests... motorcycle, scuba diving, white water kayaking, etc
SO - just wondering, comparing to his peers that are off to the job world... finance, eng, etc
At the end of 5 more years, he will be at a breakeven point - no PhD debt, but no real money saved/earned
compared to his peers that would have been working for 5 years with maybe $50k x 5 = $250k earned income.
Hard to get that new BMW, condo, or scuba trips to Belize....
Just thinking out loud.
He is now heading to Caltech for 5years pursuing a PhD in chemistry.
BTW - he is not a total Big Bang Theory nerd
and does have other interests... motorcycle, scuba diving, white water kayaking, etc
SO - just wondering, comparing to his peers that are off to the job world... finance, eng, etc
At the end of 5 more years, he will be at a breakeven point - no PhD debt, but no real money saved/earned
compared to his peers that would have been working for 5 years with maybe $50k x 5 = $250k earned income.
Hard to get that new BMW, condo, or scuba trips to Belize....
Just thinking out loud.
Last edited by ps56k on Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
In the sciences, there is a definite ceiling if you do not pursue the graduate degree. A PhD will allow him to climb very high in many R&D companies (just tell him to stay out of academics ). He will be fine and likely pass many of his friends financially at some point. I didn't finish my PhD until I was 31. My wife finished hers when she was 27. I am now in my mid 40s and we have very good careers. In our field, statistics, stopping at a BS would have that same low ceiling. The graduate degree meant there is no ceiling. I say good for him and what a great school.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
1) CalTech is a great school. PhD from CalTech in the sciences presumably carries a LOT of weight in the working world.
2) So he spends 5 years in grad school and emerges with no debt? Sounds pretty good. College is generally a fun time of life. I have no first hand knowledge of grad school, but I'm guessing that, while challenging, spending 5 years studying the stuff he loves at one of the best universities in the world will probably be enjoyable on the whole.
3) Then he gets out, probably gets a big salary, and has a very high ceiling. Sounds good! Yeah, he accumulates less toys (cars, etc) than some peers may over the next few years, but that hardly sounds like a tragic loss...
2) So he spends 5 years in grad school and emerges with no debt? Sounds pretty good. College is generally a fun time of life. I have no first hand knowledge of grad school, but I'm guessing that, while challenging, spending 5 years studying the stuff he loves at one of the best universities in the world will probably be enjoyable on the whole.
3) Then he gets out, probably gets a big salary, and has a very high ceiling. Sounds good! Yeah, he accumulates less toys (cars, etc) than some peers may over the next few years, but that hardly sounds like a tragic loss...
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Well...going to get his PhD should increase his earning potential significantly. He will be able to make up the money that he misses out on by going into the work force now instead of pursuing more education relatively quickly (hopefully). Yes a lot of hard work and sacrifice comes along with pursuing education past a bachelors, but it can have great advantages in the future.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
grad students usually get full tuition/health benefits as well as a stipend from the lab in which they are doing their phd work.
monies could be from a fellowship or a research grant from nih, nsf, Dod....
i pay my phd students about 30K per year
which may not seem like much
but if your son's buddies are only making 50k a year in the 'real world' that evens things out a bit more.
go for the phd
and academics is NOT especially a bad career path !!!
monies could be from a fellowship or a research grant from nih, nsf, Dod....
i pay my phd students about 30K per year
which may not seem like much
but if your son's buddies are only making 50k a year in the 'real world' that evens things out a bit more.
go for the phd
and academics is NOT especially a bad career path !!!
as always, |
peace, |
greenie.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Thanks for crushing my hopes and dreams lol. I have only a BS in statisticsbonaire27 wrote: In our field, statistics, stopping at a BS would have that same low ceiling. The graduate degree meant there is no ceiling. I say good for him and what a great school.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Financially, a PhD in STEM isn't necessarily a great decision. It's a lot of extra work, and it won't necessarily payoff in the end, even though you're stuck living as a grad student for a long time. It's true about the ceiling being higher, but that really depends upon your industry. In some industries, a PhD can actually hamper you, since it can 'price' you out of a lot of options. If you want to be in R&D or academia, of course, a PhD is the way to go.
In my industry, my PhD buys me very little except a title that occasionally gets used. The PhD years are just considered 'years of experience' from a pay standpoint, which means that I'm behind everyone who stopped at a B.S. or M.S., as they were being paid well during those years I was slaving away in a lab for subminimum wage. There are certain jobs even in my industry that are unlocked by having a PhD, but thus far it hasn't paid off financially.
Get a STEM PhD if you want to due to intellectual curiosity, or if you have a keen interest in jobs that require a PhD. Don't do it for financial reasons - there are far more lucrative graduate school options. My personal opinion is that a M.S. is the financial sweet spot for STEM.
In my industry, my PhD buys me very little except a title that occasionally gets used. The PhD years are just considered 'years of experience' from a pay standpoint, which means that I'm behind everyone who stopped at a B.S. or M.S., as they were being paid well during those years I was slaving away in a lab for subminimum wage. There are certain jobs even in my industry that are unlocked by having a PhD, but thus far it hasn't paid off financially.
Get a STEM PhD if you want to due to intellectual curiosity, or if you have a keen interest in jobs that require a PhD. Don't do it for financial reasons - there are far more lucrative graduate school options. My personal opinion is that a M.S. is the financial sweet spot for STEM.
Retirement investing is a marathon.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Yeah, and if you're coming straight from an undergraduate program with no/minimal income, the $30K looks nicer.greenspam wrote:i pay my phd students about 30K per year
which may not seem like much
but if your son's buddies are only making 50k a year in the 'real world' that evens things out a bit more.
Plus, even as a grad student, you'll be interacting with undergrads (even if only around campus), so there will be less of a feeling of deprivation. i.e. It's not likely that your son's immediate peers and those around him will be buying boats and trips to Hawaii. $30K on a college campus (for one person) is plenty for a modest apartment, groceries, utilities, and a reasonable number of nights out at the local pizza and burger joints, and even a few extras (used car, modest trips, etc.)
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
My daughter's Phd fellowship Paid 36 K a year (Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins) I assume he is being paid. So the difference is rather small.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Addendum - if his friends have the same sort of degree, they're likely making more than that. However, if he wants to get the PhD, he'll be fine, and might one day surpass their cumulative earnings.
Retirement investing is a marathon.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
nakedbird226 wrote:Thanks for crushing my hopes and dreams lol. I have only a BS in statisticsbonaire27 wrote: In our field, statistics, stopping at a BS would have that same low ceiling. The graduate degree meant there is no ceiling. I say good for him and what a great school.
Ummm. I meant except for you (besides, I'm just talking about generally)
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
AND he just mentioned that maybe he might stay in the academic world... it's a long way off...bonaire27 wrote:In the sciences, there is a definite ceiling if you do not pursue the graduate degree. A PhD will allow him to climb very high in many R&D companies (just tell him to stay out of academics ).
He's only 24, as he lived & worked in Germany for a year on a cultural exchange program.
Our niece just received her PhD at UW/Madison in Forensic Toxicology, got married, has a baby, etc - turning 30.
BTW - like your screen name - diver ?
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I'm sure CalTech isn't the same, but UCSD chemistry grad students make about $27,000.
http://www-chem.ucsd.edu/graduate-progr ... pport.html
From my experiences, the value of the PhD is somewhat proportional to the size of the company you work for. The more rigid the corporate structure, the more the degree helps.
http://www-chem.ucsd.edu/graduate-progr ... pport.html
From my experiences, the value of the PhD is somewhat proportional to the size of the company you work for. The more rigid the corporate structure, the more the degree helps.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
As greenspan pointed out above, academics can be a fine field. Generally good benefits. You don't have to work crazy hours like us dogs in the corporate world. More time off. etc. I was just goofing on the boglehead professors knowing they would be visiting your post.ps56k wrote:AND he just mentioned that maybe he might stay in the academic world... it's a long way off...bonaire27 wrote:In the sciences, there is a definite ceiling if you do not pursue the graduate degree. A PhD will allow him to climb very high in many R&D companies (just tell him to stay out of academics ).
He's only 24, as he lived & worked in Germany for a year on a cultural exchange program.
Our niece just received her PhD at UW/Madison in Forensic Toxicology, got married, has a baby, etc - turning 30.
BTW - like your screen name - diver ?
Yes. I am a diver. Best shore diving in the Caribbean. It is also the island we were married on.
Last edited by bonaire27 on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I'm betting that those that go to work and earn $50K will probably have no significant savings after 5 years, in that sense your student doesn't really get "behind".
Beyond his own potential for professional growth being at Caltech for 5 years could result in meeting a spouse with great career potential as well. Might not come across those kind of potential spouses in the grocery store or laundromat.
Beyond his own potential for professional growth being at Caltech for 5 years could result in meeting a spouse with great career potential as well. Might not come across those kind of potential spouses in the grocery store or laundromat.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
He applied to, was acepted at, recruited and visited 6 programs...Scripps, Yale, Caltech, Berkeley, Stanford, & UNC.psteinx wrote:1) CalTech is a great school. PhD from CalTech in the sciences presumably carries a LOT of weight in the working world.
Unfortunately, UW/Madison Chemistry doesn't retain their undergrads for a graduate position...
too bad - I love that place.
......
His final decision was based upon the profs, their work, potential projects, and lastly... the nameplate.
It actually was between Caltech & UNC - but thought the Caltech namplate might be better in the future.
Last edited by ps56k on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Grad student stipends can be deceptive... I'm currently making 36k a year, but I don't pay state, medicare, or social security taxes. The flipside of this is that I have no social security credits
Drunken Roboticist
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Chemist with a BS earned 74k on average. Those with a PhD earned 100k. The PhD pays for it self pretty quick. I would have to guess some one that can get into CalTech will be well above those averages.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
+1 !kenyan wrote:Financially, a PhD in STEM isn't necessarily a great decision. It's a lot of extra work, and it won't necessarily payoff in the end, even though you're stuck living as a grad student for a long time. It's true about the ceiling being higher, but that really depends upon your industry. In some industries, a PhD can actually hamper you, since it can 'price' you out of a lot of options. If you want to be in R&D or academia, of course, a PhD is the way to go.
In my industry, my PhD buys me very little except a title that occasionally gets used. The PhD years are just considered 'years of experience' from a pay standpoint, which means that I'm behind everyone who stopped at a B.S. or M.S., as they were being paid well during those years I was slaving away in a lab for subminimum wage. There are certain jobs even in my industry that are unlocked by having a PhD, but thus far it hasn't paid off financially.
Get a STEM PhD if you want to due to intellectual curiosity, or if you have a keen interest in jobs that require a PhD. Don't do it for financial reasons - there are far more lucrative graduate school options. My personal opinion is that a M.S. is the financial sweet spot for STEM.
Also very dependent on subfield and sub sub field. Within chemistry there are wild variations in market value, industry trends of the moment, etc.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
How does that stipend get reported to you - 1098, 1099, W2, ? - just wondering for end of year tax planning...shorvath wrote:Grad student stipends can be deceptive...
I'm currently making 36k a year, but I don't pay state, medicare, or social security taxes.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Penny... Penny... Penny... - vs Amy, who is a PhD in real life.123 wrote:Beyond his own potential for professional growth being at Caltech for 5 years could result in meeting a spouse with great career potential as well. Might not come across those kind of potential spouses in the grocery store or laundromat.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
It will likely work out fine. Might come out ahead monetarily and might not. A lot depends on what he decides to do when he gets out.
More importantly it will open doors to (potentially) interesting work he could not otherwise do.
If he really wants to be a research chemist of some sort, this is likely a great move. If he wants to lead a team of chemists this is a likely a great move. If he wants to be an industrial chemical engineer maybe not (I don't really know the chemistry field). If he does not want leadership (lots of people don't and that is fine) an MS might be better.
I'd make the decision not on a monetary basis, but based on what he wants to do with his life. I imagine at least an MS is required to get much of anywhere (not my field, but seems to be generally true).
More importantly it will open doors to (potentially) interesting work he could not otherwise do.
If he really wants to be a research chemist of some sort, this is likely a great move. If he wants to lead a team of chemists this is a likely a great move. If he wants to be an industrial chemical engineer maybe not (I don't really know the chemistry field). If he does not want leadership (lots of people don't and that is fine) an MS might be better.
I'd make the decision not on a monetary basis, but based on what he wants to do with his life. I imagine at least an MS is required to get much of anywhere (not my field, but seems to be generally true).
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Mine is reported on a W2, with federal taxes withheld, but that is not at all standard. Many students are paid through 1099s. This is going to vary based on department, school, and source of funding.ps56k wrote:How does that stipend get reported to you - 1098, 1099, W2, ? - just wondering for end of year tax planning...shorvath wrote:Grad student stipends can be deceptive...
I'm currently making 36k a year, but I don't pay state, medicare, or social security taxes.
Drunken Roboticist
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
It's not all or just about money - if that's his passion, it's the best thing for him.
However, anyone who can get into a PhD program at Caltech and has outside interests can certainly get a job in finance making a heckuva lot more money, regardless of the 5 years of low stipend and opportunity cost, etc.
However, anyone who can get into a PhD program at Caltech and has outside interests can certainly get a job in finance making a heckuva lot more money, regardless of the 5 years of low stipend and opportunity cost, etc.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
One of the best financial aspects of being a PhD student is that you are surrounded by others on a frugal lifestyle. Also, there is usually a lot of inexpensive fun available on a university campus (free concerts, lectures, university museums and galleries, arboretum, potluck get-togethers, etc.) My late husband and I learned that we could squeeze a lot of joy out of a frugal grad student existence.
One source of cheap fun at Caltech is hiking or rock climbing in nearby mountains. There is also often a surprisingly amount of very nice free food to be had at receptions for seminar speakers or going out to nice dinners with visiting scholars at department expense, etc.
I know grad students who have managed to save surprisingly large amounts of money (over $100K) during a 5-year grad program by living frugally and saving and taking advantage of free campus perks.
One source of cheap fun at Caltech is hiking or rock climbing in nearby mountains. There is also often a surprisingly amount of very nice free food to be had at receptions for seminar speakers or going out to nice dinners with visiting scholars at department expense, etc.
I know grad students who have managed to save surprisingly large amounts of money (over $100K) during a 5-year grad program by living frugally and saving and taking advantage of free campus perks.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
+1DTSC wrote:It's not all or just about money - if that's his passion, it's the best thing for him.
However, anyone who can get into a PhD program at Caltech and has outside interests can certainly get a job in finance making a heckuva lot more money, regardless of the 5 years of low stipend and opportunity cost, etc.
I don't think an extra 20-30k saved and however compounded can make up to the satisfaction of doing intellectually satisfying work for the rest of his work life. As others have pointed out, its unlikely that the earnings of PhD folks in non academics are capped. At least the probability of hitting a salary/job function limit is lesser.
IMO it also matters where you do the PhD and under whom. Caltech has a great reputation and I think he has a great future!
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
The PhD will throw away the money. If the PhD seems more fun than the next best job offer then do it anyway.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Starting the Ph.D program at Caltech shouldn’t hurt. Graduate school is pretty different from undergraduate, he can get a much better sense on whether this is the right career for him after a couple of years. If he doesn’t have passion for research/or placements for Ph.D. in his department isn’t as expected, he could get a masters and quit.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Yes going from zero to $30K feels fine.psteinx wrote:Yeah, and if you're coming straight from an undergraduate program with no/minimal income, the $30K looks nicer.greenspam wrote:i pay my phd students about 30K per year
which may not seem like much
but if your son's buddies are only making 50k a year in the 'real world' that evens things out a bit more.
Plus, even as a grad student, you'll be interacting with undergrads (even if only around campus), so there will be less of a feeling of deprivation. i.e. It's not likely that your son's immediate peers and those around him will be buying boats and trips to Hawaii. $30K on a college campus (for one person) is plenty for a modest apartment, groceries, utilities, and a reasonable number of nights out at the local pizza and burger joints, and even a few extras (used car, modest trips, etc.)
Going from $50K to $30K likely does not.
I don't think most grad students feel all that deprived.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
While a PhD can mean the big bucks and a lucrative career it can also mean you are unemployed.
I know an ex-CalTech chem grad student who hasn't worked in quite a while.
I say go for the degree, but keep the end always in sight. Even at CalTech it should not take 5 years. Make it a goal to get out in 4 or less.
I know an ex-CalTech chem grad student who hasn't worked in quite a while.
I say go for the degree, but keep the end always in sight. Even at CalTech it should not take 5 years. Make it a goal to get out in 4 or less.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Yeah - at UW/Madison, they have an outdoors group - called the UW/Hoofers. He has run their kayak safety classes, and gone on UW group kayaking trips out in CO and down to KY and GA. Along with biking, hiking, camping, XC sking, and rock climbing... all from his Eagle Scout days, along with high school State swim team capt, & track rec holder, and some other interests.dodecahedron wrote:One source of cheap fun at Caltech is hiking or rock climbing in nearby mountains.
So, yeah - he is a pretty interesting guy..... both academically and socially -
Gonna miss driving up to Madison every so often. Pasadena is a much longer drive
My grad present to him... Mom just gave him a big hug and $1,000 check -
Last edited by ps56k on Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
ps56k,
Not sure if you care, but doing a Google image search on the image in your first post in this thread turns up your personal website, as well as your son's Google+ page and even a review he wrote for an app. Again, not sure if you care, and certainly not saying that you should, but wanted to let you know in case you intended to preserve your anonymity and his.
Not sure if you care, but doing a Google image search on the image in your first post in this thread turns up your personal website, as well as your son's Google+ page and even a review he wrote for an app. Again, not sure if you care, and certainly not saying that you should, but wanted to let you know in case you intended to preserve your anonymity and his.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Congrats to your son. I'm sure dad is proud.
Financially it may be a wash, but I would sure pursue the PhD (of course I did).
If he goes the academic route, he'll need to do a postdoc and get lots of publications.
One thing to do is to choose a school where someone is doing research in an area he
wants to go into, and who is willing to take him on.
The connection he makes there could be invaluable.
Financially it may be a wash, but I would sure pursue the PhD (of course I did).
If he goes the academic route, he'll need to do a postdoc and get lots of publications.
One thing to do is to choose a school where someone is doing research in an area he
wants to go into, and who is willing to take him on.
The connection he makes there could be invaluable.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Tnx - I deleted -CFM300 wrote:Not sure if you care, but doing a Google image search on the image in your first post.......
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I would go for the PhD, since it's Caltech, one of the best schools in the world. Anecdotally, I've known several people hurt more than helped by engineering grad school, although not of Caltech's caliber and not in your son's field of chemistry.
1) I've seen severe cases of arrested development, where smart people take years longer than it should to finish their degrees because they're afraid of having to leave the cocoon on the university and take a job in the real world.
2) I've seen abusive faculty drag out their student's thesis as long as possible, so that they don't lose the "cheap" ra labor that's already trained.
3) I know a Phd content to spend the rest of his life basically unemployed because he considers a non research position "not intellectually challenging" and beneath him, but couldn't find a research position in his field out of school and by now would get passed over for a freshly minted Phd.
4. I know a Phd who spent 2 years for a MS, 4 for a Phd, 1 year for a postdoc, and 7 years as an assistant professor, who didn't get tenure. He eventually got a job at a megacorp doing more development than research, with a decent salary, but probably would have higher earnings if he had spent the past 14 years moving up the ranks in industry instead of trying to get one of the rare tenured faculty positions.
1) I've seen severe cases of arrested development, where smart people take years longer than it should to finish their degrees because they're afraid of having to leave the cocoon on the university and take a job in the real world.
2) I've seen abusive faculty drag out their student's thesis as long as possible, so that they don't lose the "cheap" ra labor that's already trained.
3) I know a Phd content to spend the rest of his life basically unemployed because he considers a non research position "not intellectually challenging" and beneath him, but couldn't find a research position in his field out of school and by now would get passed over for a freshly minted Phd.
4. I know a Phd who spent 2 years for a MS, 4 for a Phd, 1 year for a postdoc, and 7 years as an assistant professor, who didn't get tenure. He eventually got a job at a megacorp doing more development than research, with a decent salary, but probably would have higher earnings if he had spent the past 14 years moving up the ranks in industry instead of trying to get one of the rare tenured faculty positions.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
In some rankings it is placed No. 1 in the world.cowboysFan wrote:I would go for the PhD, since it's Caltech, one of the best schools in the world.
If you want to do this sort of thing for the rest of your life it is a great opportunity. He should at least give it a try.
I'm sure he realizes this, but to reinforce things he needs to be thinking a step or two ahead of the game. He needs to pick a professor to work with who has a record of students succeeding at what he wants after graduation. This is critical.
Chemical engineering is a rather different field. It's pretty unusual for someone trained in chemistry to end up in chemical engineering. However there are some very famous chemists who started out in chemical engineering. Linus Pauling for example. The reason is chemical engineers get a grounding in chemistry but not so much the reverse.Rodc wrote:If he wants to be an industrial chemical engineer maybe not (I don't really know the chemistry field). If he does not want leadership (lots of people don't and that is fine) an MS might be better.
As far as leadership goes, there are plenty of PhDs that have satisfying careers as individual contributors. A good number of large companies have dual ladders where you can achieve quite a bit taking a supervisory role.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Some of this is true, but just to chime in as an academic: professors absolutely work some long hours (as do graduate students), though I'm not sure what your definition of crazy is. Most professors on the tenure track can expect to work 60-80 hours per week during their first few years and, depending on ambition and department demands, may continue at the 60ish hours or so level for their career. I also wouldn't say I have more time off than most other people. Time not spent teaching/grading is spent on research, grant writing, etc. "Summer" doesn't mean time off, but rather finally having sufficient time to devote to my research so that I don't get fired or, if tenured, get a raise and keep from having my research-related benefits lowered. Job benefits are great, colleagues are often great, students are usually great, I love my work, and there's some true quality of life perks about academia. However, as the joke goes, "Professors get to set their schedule - any 70 hours of the week that they want!" Work loads can vary across fields and institutions, of course, and some professors manage to constrain their work to 9-5. However, few do at research institutions (in my experience).bonaire27 wrote:ps56k wrote:bonaire27 wrote:In the sciences, there is a definite ceiling if you do not pursue the graduate degree. A PhD will allow him to climb very hAs greenspan pointed out above, academics can be a fine field. Generally good benefits. You don't have to work crazy hours like us dogs in the corporate world. More time off. etc. I was just goofing on the boglehead professors knowing they would be visiting your post.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
If he loves chemistry enough to do a Phd at a top rated school he should pursue it. Even if he does not make his career in research, a Phd is a good thing to have done (as long as it is done quickly).ps56k wrote:Our son just graduated from UW/Madison... in Chemistry with German minor.
He is now heading to Caltech for 5years pursuing a PhD in chemistry.
BTW - he is not a total Big Bang Theory nerd
and does have other interests... motorcycle, scuba diving, white water kayaking, etc
SO - just wondering, comparing to his peers that are off to the job world... finance, eng, etc
At the end of 5 more years, he will be at a breakeven point - no PhD debt, but no real money saved/earned
compared to his peers that would have been working for 5 years with maybe $50k x 5 = $250k earned income.
Hard to get that new BMW, condo, or scuba trips to Belize....
Just thinking out loud.
What he SHOULD NOT do is:
- take longer than 5 years to finish that Phd
- keep pursuing it if, at any time before completion (except when writing up), it becomes clear to him that he has no desire to be either a career academic or a technically oriented person in industry (lots of heads of oil companies and very senior managers in technical industries have MS or Phd in chemical engineering or a relevant field). He shouldn't sit around for 3 years pretending to finish a Phd he's not going to finish- -get the MS and get out
BTW I doubt there are any interesting 'chemistry' jobs without at least an MS. Most technical subjects you need an MS even in industry. As opposed to being a salesman say for Dupont.
Caltech is I am sure an amazing school in his discipline. He'll get a lot out of his studies, even if he only gets as far as doing his Phd Comps.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Advise him to study petroleum chemistry. He will make up the lost income in a hurry. BTW, my FIL got his PhD from UW/Madison in ChE. He loved it there. He is a brilliant man who has several citations in the top 100 most cited papers in ChE from 1899-2011. He speaks very fondly of Cal Tech. He hopes his grandchildren would go there. Your son is going to have a promising career.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I'm a current PhD student in engineering. I've heard several times from even the head of the department that from a strictly monetary standpoint, the PhD is poor decision - it is very hard to make up 5-6 years of making a living wage (and occasionally saving up for things) vs. working a full time job during that time. Of course a PhD's starting salary is higher, but you experience diminishing returns for every degree you get (in general).
Of course, that is engineering, not chemistry. Perhaps chemistry is different, I have no idea. But even more importantly, your son will not finish his PhD in a reasonable amount of time if he is not passionate about chemistry. The PhD is a long and arduous process, and it is common for PhD students to doubt their commitment to their degree (some people drop out after earning just a MS, others eventually push through). He has to want it.
That being said, if he does want a PhD, there is no better time in his life to earn a PhD than now - he is young, and I'm guessing no kids to care for. And the PhD can open lots more doors (though this is again field dependent).
Of course, that is engineering, not chemistry. Perhaps chemistry is different, I have no idea. But even more importantly, your son will not finish his PhD in a reasonable amount of time if he is not passionate about chemistry. The PhD is a long and arduous process, and it is common for PhD students to doubt their commitment to their degree (some people drop out after earning just a MS, others eventually push through). He has to want it.
That being said, if he does want a PhD, there is no better time in his life to earn a PhD than now - he is young, and I'm guessing no kids to care for. And the PhD can open lots more doors (though this is again field dependent).
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
The last 5-10 years have been a horrible time to be a PhD chemist, even those with prestigious pedigrees. Your son really needs to go into this with his eyes open. He is unlikely get a realistic sense of the chemistry job market from research faculty.
I'd suggest reading a couple blogs: Chemjobber and In the Pipeline.
I'd suggest reading a couple blogs: Chemjobber and In the Pipeline.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I have never regretted my Ph.D. But, this is absolutely not a financial decision.
What I have seen (and yes, there are many exceptions to this), is that people with MS degrees make more than Ph.D.s, because the MS folks move into management positions while the Ph.D.s choose to stay in technical roles.
What I have seen (and yes, there are many exceptions to this), is that people with MS degrees make more than Ph.D.s, because the MS folks move into management positions while the Ph.D.s choose to stay in technical roles.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
C&E news is another great resource. Every year they have their annual salary/job prospects for BS/MS/PhD issue.NJ2SLC wrote:The last 5-10 years have been a horrible time to be a PhD chemist, even those with prestigious pedigrees. Your son really needs to go into this with his eyes open. He is unlikely get a realistic sense of the chemistry job market from research faculty.
I'd suggest reading a couple blogs: Chemjobber and In the Pipeline.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
If he breaks even after five years, he'll probably be significantly ahead of his undergraduate classmates who buy BMWs, condos, and/or scuba trips to Belize!ps56k wrote:At the end of 5 more years, he will be at a breakeven point - no PhD debt, but no real money saved/earned compared to his peers that would have been working for 5 years with maybe $50k x 5 = $250k earned income.
Hard to get that new BMW, condo, or scuba trips to Belize....
Just thinking out loud.
A Ph.D. from CalTech is one heck of a calling card. But it really depends upon what you son wants--not just now, but after spending a couple of years in grad school. My career plans changed dramatically after my second year of graduate school. I got the degree, and don't regret it in the least.
As stated above, he needs to finish in five years at the longest. I've seen too many graduate students spend years on dissertation research and writing as a way of avoiding entry into the real world or because they're being exploited as cheap labor by their advisors.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I had many Ph.D. students. I think pursuing Ph.D. may not be financially sound. However, with a Ph.D. in chemistry from Caltec, your son should pursue an academic career. For industry, an M.S. degree is the best in terms of time and money.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
@ps56k, I have fond memories of the Caltech campus. It is wonderful in the Spring. It is best not to put a timeline on the degree as it is hard to predict how long it takes to generate a significant research thesis. Moreover, for some career paths, your son may take on additional years as a postdoctoral fellow. It certainly is not a path for quick financial success. That said, a science PhD makes possible a range of financial opportunities. As your son will soon discover, most professors there garner additional income that could be many fold more than their Caltech paycheck.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
I have read through this thread. I then ask myself: what is the purpose of the post? The kid is going to grad school? I assume this young person is smart enough to not consider a discussion raised by his parents that he should forgo his PhD so he can make 50K a year for 5 years. What are we trying to conclude here? If my parents ever said that to me, I'd have felt very badly about them.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
from a AAS in Chemistryflyingaway wrote:I had many Ph.D. students. I think pursuing Ph.D. may not be financially sound. However, with a Ph.D. in chemistry from Caltec, your son should pursue an academic career. For industry, an M.S. degree is the best in terms of time and money.
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Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Before anyone starts a PhD (or a MS, for that matter), I would suggest that they have met with several people doing jobs similar to what they think they might want to do either in academia or "the real world". I say this as someone who has a MS in engineering, who finally realized and admitted several years after graduation that although the MS research was rewarding, the working world of engineering is by and large mind-numbingly boring. Yes, chemistry is not engineering, but the advice is still the same: "make sure you truly have a passion for what you're going to invest so much time in".
I'm currently starting over in completely unrelated field; going to school, while working that boring, but well-paying, engineering gig. I wouldn't wish a mismatched job on anyone.
I'm currently starting over in completely unrelated field; going to school, while working that boring, but well-paying, engineering gig. I wouldn't wish a mismatched job on anyone.
Last edited by AdamP on Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: College & PhD vs $250k working
Money is not the goal of education. A good life (rich with knowledge, skills, and friendship, all put into practice) is the goal. Money is only a part of that equation, and you only need "enough," not a ton. Just think of what he can contribute to the world with such an education.
He will make some great friends there. He might meet his spouse there. And the resulting kids would be smart! My mom would be thrilled if my kid married a PhD from CalTech! "What grandkids," she would say.
But seriously, the average PhD makes almost 50% more than the average BA/BS over a lifetime. He will likely catch up to his friends and then some. http://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/de ... report.pdf
However, even if he did make less, his life would still be more for it.
He will make some great friends there. He might meet his spouse there. And the resulting kids would be smart! My mom would be thrilled if my kid married a PhD from CalTech! "What grandkids," she would say.
But seriously, the average PhD makes almost 50% more than the average BA/BS over a lifetime. He will likely catch up to his friends and then some. http://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/de ... report.pdf
However, even if he did make less, his life would still be more for it.