declining job due to travel

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investingdad
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declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

So I've been with my employer for about eight years. I changed roles two years ago to take on more challenging work. We had a drop in workload and my manager and I discussed looking at a transfer.

Since then the workload issue is resolving itself. But we sort of started putting the feelers out. Last week he pulled me into his office to discuss a role that opened. He said I was under zero obligation to pursue it but thought it was a good fit and good opportunity to further develop my skills. The role itself does present a good opportunity, it may also mean a grade level promotion. I had an informal discussion with the hiring manager today and he agreed with what my manager told me, my work experience in the company makes me a strong fit.

A little bit about me...I'm forty, an engineer, make 100k base salary, married with a third and first grader. Work life balance is extremely important to me. My kids and wife come before everything. My wife earns a bit more than me.

Lately I've felt my career is just a tad behind where I'd like it. This role would fix that.

What's the problem?

I would be required to travel to China every three months for a week each time. When I was younger with no kids this wouldn't be a problem. And I'll be honest, taking a plane on a seventeen hour flight freaks me out. I say that having been ok flying to Europe a few times in the past. This says nothing about me not liking the idea of being away from my wife and two monkeys for a month out off the year.

I have to decide if I'm going to formally interview or not early next week. So I'm not deep into this yet.

I'm torn over this, any advice?
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FrugalInvestor
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by FrugalInvestor »

It comes down to your priorities and how you weight them. I don't know that anyone else can answer this for you. Maybe just the fact that you put it in writing will help you make the decision. It often helps me.
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LadyGeek
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (employment decision).

I see this:

- Your workload dropped, hinting that there isn't as much of a need for your current position
- A good opportunity came up, but you will be away from your family for one week every 3 months and you don't like that

I'd say your boss is sending a message that your job stability is not as good as it used to be. He/she's trying to kill two birds with one stone and offer a promotion out of the department.

Reading between the lines, the tone of your post says you don't want to do this. This is your gut feeling, go with it. Anything else will result in regret later on. Decline the offer.
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dl7848
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by dl7848 »

I personally would turn down the transfer.

1. You specifically mention work life balance is extremely important to you

2. 17-ihour flights are the embodiment of misery. They also result in wear and tear on the body. I knew someone who had a similarly grueling travel schedule, eventually retired, and promptly died. Coincidence is not causation, but I've always wondered...

3. Both you and your wife are pulling in a decent salary. (I guess though it depends on where you're living as to how far that money goes.)

4. Your career is just a "tad" behind where you'd like it. It's not like you're miserable in your current position.

5. China would be fun, but it would be even more fun with your wife and children on a relaxed vacation, rather than under the pressure of a job AND a miserable flight.

That's my opinion as one who loathes double-digit-hour flights and has changed jobs before due to a grueling schedule with weird hours that I thought would lower my life expectancy.
KyleAAA
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by KyleAAA »

Do they let you fly business class? 17 hours in coach is misery. 17 hours in business class is awesome.
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investingdad
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

KyleAAA wrote:Do they let you fly business class? 17 hours in coach is misery. 17 hours in business class is awesome.
Business Class to Shanghai. Office is there.

We don't need to make more money, this is more about taking my career up a notch for professional development. It's worth noting that my manager confided that he declined travel to China in the past and he felt it did hold him back, though he's planning to retire early.
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Random Musings
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by Random Musings »

If your wife and kids come before everything, the decision has already been made.

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TX_TURTLE
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by TX_TURTLE »

Traveling abroad can be demanding, but it is also rewarding. I have never been in Mainland China, but my job has taken me to Hong Kong and Japan. These two countries have both exceeded my expectations, especially Japan. I would go back in heartbeat. Also, if you travel this much, you are likely to gather a ton of frequent flier miles that will allow you to travel abroad with your family every so often for next to nothing.

There is of course a negative side. I'm guessing that in order to be in China one week you will travel the prior weekend and come back the following one. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if your one week trip becames a two weeks one, to make the most of the travel time and expense. IMO the long airplane trip is not a huge problem, especially if it is direct flight (typically these are overnight flight, so you can sleep most of the time).

This is a very personal decision, but I can tell you for sure that most people I've known that travel abroad every so often, enjoy it.
epilnk
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by epilnk »

1) How does your wife feel about single parenting 1 week every 3 months?

2) Would you be able to take a few extra days at home after each trip to spend with your family?

My husband traveled about this much when our kids were about this age, mostly CA to Europe. It's not really much strain on the family, though part of that is because I am home. He had enough flexibility that we were able to take some mini vacations and long weekends and do fun stuff as a family, so we didn't really feel like work life balance suffered overall. More recently the job went up to around 25% travel and that was definitely too much - he's been working on cutting that back. I think the long flights are harder on him at 50 than it was at 40, but he doesn't seem to mind it much.

If this job is a career step upward, then at worst you are better positioned to make a lateral move (internally or to another company) if the travel turns out to be too much. But you say it 'may' mean a grade level promotion - I would make sure about that before considering it.

Absolutely agree with KyleAAA about the business class travel - coach would be a dealbreaker.
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HomerJ
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by HomerJ »

investingdad wrote:We don't need to make more money, this is more about taking my career up a notch for professional development.
I stopped advancing in my career about the same salary level and age as you... I was making $100k at 40, my wife was making $130k, and I stopped pursuing promotions...

Because we had "enough"... Promotions just meant more work and more stress, and a little more money that we didn't need...

I'm very happy with my decision... Work is fairly easy... but I still learn new things every year (I'm in IT), so it's not like I'm stagnating and I never get bored.

I'm 45, and on track to retire at 55... I watch my manager play office politics, and get stressed when things are broken... (he manages network, storage, and servers, and it seems like there's always a problem somewhere... so he's stressed all the time)

But you have to make that decision for yourself... This next job sounds pretty good, if they really only send you 1 week every 3 months... But what's after that? Another promotion where you have to travel even more? What's the point?

You only get a few years with your kids when they are young... I'm serious... When they hit 12-13, it changes big time... You only get about 8-10 years where kids are pure joy. My youngest is turning 12, and I am quite wistful when I realize the part of my life where my kids think I'm the greatest guy on earth is just about over.
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Watty
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by Watty »

Be sure to look into the air quality in the parts of China that you would be going to. I am sure that we only see it on the nightly news when it is at its worst but I would not want to go there when it is at at bad time of year.

If that is the only travel then that is only about 8% travel(4/52) which is not all that much for a senior person. It might seem like more since it is overseas but I know a lot of people that travel a lot more than that withing the US.

Depending on your situation you might be able to take a long weekend after you get back to help make up for traveling on weekends.
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investingdad
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

HomerJ wrote:
You only get a few years with your kids when they are young... I'm serious... When they hit 12-13, it changes big time... You only get about 8-10 years where kids are pure joy. My youngest is turning 12, and I am quite wistful when I realize the part of my life where my kids think I'm the greatest guy on earth is just about over.
This is what I've spent a lot of time thinking about. They're 9 and almost 7. In a few years they won't be little kids anymore. And just one month per year is a much bigger chunk of that time when they'll only be little a few more years.

If this is a career limiting move by not taking it, I really can't think of a better reason for passing it up then getting that time back to spend with them.
dl7848
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by dl7848 »

KyleAAA wrote:Do they let you fly business class? 17 hours in coach is misery. 17 hours in business class is awesome.
Business class theoretically is awesome, but it depends on who you are sitting next to, and f you can move away if the person is obnoxious (obviously, I'm thinking of a very specific incident here. :D). It also depends on how well you sleep on planes in general.

Additionally, these already-long flights can be delayed for several hours, forcing a stay on the ground before the double-digit-hour flight actually gets underway. That compounds the misery. A 17-hour flight can turn into a 24-hour proposition.

And hopefully, there isn't a connecting flight on the far end! (Yup, I've had that one too. The front-end delay means the connecting flight gets missed.)
LeeMKE
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by LeeMKE »

LadyGeek wrote: I see this:

- Your workload dropped, hinting that there isn't as much of a need for your current position
- A good opportunity came up, but you will be away from your family for one week every 3 months and you don't like that

I'd say your boss is sending a message that your job stability is not as good as it used to be. He/she's trying to kill two birds with one stone and offer a promotion out of the department.

Reading between the lines, the tone of your post says you don't want to do this. This is your gut feeling, go with it. Anything else will result in regret later on. Decline the offer.
I agree. This was my first reaction to your story. Glad someone else said it.
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Bungo
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by Bungo »

Business class or not, long flights are still very unpleasant. For that matter, all flights are annoying these days due to the security lines. I don't think I've ever taken a business trip which I thought was worth the time/effort, and that is even more true now that web meetings are ubiquitous.

Some employers seem to be coming to the same conclusion. Mine recently started discouraging interoffice travel by requiring vice presidential approval for business class; until then it had been automatic for any flight over six hours.

Also worth noting that business class varies widely from one airline, or one physical airplane's layout, to the next. On older planes it's only marginally more comfortable than coach seating. I've been on "business class" flights between European cities which were just standard coach seats at the front of the plane, with no one sitting in the middle seat. Glad I wasn't paying the bill for that joke.

A job requiring a quarterly trip to China (or anywhere) would merit an automatic "no thanks" from me.
harrychan
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by harrychan »

To put it in perspective, 1 week away from family for 3 months is not that bad. Is this something that will have to be maintained as long as you are in this position or can it taper off if it is not required?
I have a team in India and in the past 6 years I have been there 3 times. As long as their performance is acceptable, there is no need for me to be physically present. See how flexible are the travel dates. If it is flexible and you can wiggle your way around important dates for your children, I don't see an issue. Sometimes large corporations see how loyal an employee is by sending them overseas as expats. This is nothing like an expat situation. Not sure where you live but $100k at 40 being an engineer is a bit underpaid. If you want to remain at this company, then I would say go for it. Sometimes having one parent away is good for the kids. They learn to appreciate their parents more and help around the house.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
harrychan
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by harrychan »

LeeMKE wrote:
LadyGeek wrote: I see this:

- Your workload dropped, hinting that there isn't as much of a need for your current position
- A good opportunity came up, but you will be away from your family for one week every 3 months and you don't like that

I'd say your boss is sending a message that your job stability is not as good as it used to be. He/she's trying to kill two birds with one stone and offer a promotion out of the department.

Reading between the lines, the tone of your post says you don't want to do this. This is your gut feeling, go with it. Anything else will result in regret later on. Decline the offer.
I agree. This was my first reaction to your story. Glad someone else said it.
Then the other alternative may be a layoff.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
freebeer
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by freebeer »

I travel a LOT for my current job and it is double-edged - I find there's good and bad. Long flights in business class are not part of the bad and doing a week away 4x a year... is OK. A bit of time away from the family is a chance for recharging (in even the tighest jazz combo every player needs to "lay out" once in a while) and also with young kids you might find as we did that you can once every few trips take the family along for a vacation, or wife if you have extended family or other options for leaving them. Taking kids away gets much harder when the kids hit middle school and then more or less impossible in high school so now's the time.

Personally I find 2 or 3 short trips much much more physically and mentally demanding than a single 1 week long trip, and no chance of getting wife or family to go a long distance with your for a couple days or an "if its Tuesday this must be Belgium" whirlwind.

Shanghai's arguably the most cosmopolitan and desirable destination in China, it's not one of the (many) gritty industrial cities and IMO its also better than Beijing (pollution in Shanghai some times of the year, but not also dust storms from the Gobi desert). I was in Shanghai for a few days last November and it was mostly "blue sky" days, I spent a lot of time walking around neighborhoods and parks.

Since you are early in your career and China is on the rise and central in engineering fields you would probably make valuable connections (guanxi) ... so your China experience would likely be helpful over and above whatever direct career development you got from the new responsibilities (much more so than were you traveling to say Italy or another relatively stagnant economy or a region where personal connections aren't so important).

So on balance I would say "go for it" but again that's from someone who is a frequent traveler.
lululu
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by lululu »

Like others, I am worried about your current job lasting. But your DW works at a nice salary, so it isn't like you would be out on the street.

I would not take this job. I had a job once that required major travel, and it was beyond exhausting and disruptive.

I would hope another possibility opens up in your company, meanwhile getting your ducks in order for looking for a new job in case of a layoff or even if you decide to voluntarily change companies.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by ralph124cf »

I spent the last ten years before I retired going to China and Singapore two to three times a month. Jet lag is serious on these trips. When you get to China, wait at least 24 hours before trying to do any intellectual work, and after coming home, the next day do not try to balance your checkbook, and DO NOT use power tools. Definitely do not go into work the next day, you will get a reputation as an idiot.

I agree with other posters that flying coach would be a deal breaker. You will be an elite status frequent flyer, and an interesting rule on many airlines is that you can only upgrade one class of service using miles. A coach passenger can upgrade to business, but not first. First class seats sometimes go unoccupied, because so few people actually buy business. You will be a position to upgrade to first. Sometimes you even get a free upgrade to first because that lets the agent upgrade a coach frequent flier to your business class seat.

If you have a choice, fly on an oriental airline rather than a US airline. You will be much happier.

Ralph
awval999
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by awval999 »

I would snap accept it. However, I'm 28, married with no children. And I love to travel.

The title of your post is "Declining job due to travel". You have already made your decision. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to leave your family 4 weeks a year. But there will be someone who will.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by cherijoh »

ralph124cf wrote:I spent the last ten years before I retired going to China and Singapore two to three times a month. Jet lag is serious on these trips. When you get to China, wait at least 24 hours before trying to do any intellectual work, and after coming home, the next day do not try to balance your checkbook, and DO NOT use power tools. Definitely do not go into work the next day, you will get a reputation as an idiot.

I agree with other posters that flying coach would be a deal breaker. You will be an elite status frequent flyer, and an interesting rule on many airlines is that you can only upgrade one class of service using miles. A coach passenger can upgrade to business, but not first. First class seats sometimes go unoccupied, because so few people actually buy business. You will be a position to upgrade to first. Sometimes you even get a free upgrade to first because that lets the agent upgrade a coach frequent flier to your business class seat.

If you have a choice, fly on an oriental airline rather than a US airline. You will be much happier.

Ralph
it has been a while since I traveled in Asia, but Cathay Pacific was always an excellent airline. I never flew Singapore Air, but it had a good reputation with my colleagues who regularly traveled to Asia.

I also agree with Ralph regarding international first class - I was upgraded from business class to first on business trip with my former employer. It was a day flight (from Europe back to the states), but I'm pretty sure I would have been able to snooze on this one since it was a pod with a recliner that opened almost flat. I was one of three people in the first class section (out of eight) and if I looked up the flight attendant was asking if I needed anything.
THY4373
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by THY4373 »

Personally I think international travel helps you grow as a person. And this amount of travel is the amount that would be my personal max but I'd probably do it. Business class makes a huge difference but still a 17 hour flight is a haul (I traveled extensively internationally when I was younger). I do agree there may be a subtext in this offer but hard for anybody here to judge that. I think you also need to decide whether you want to continue to move up or have reached where you want to be in the corporate hierarchy. Income-wise and age wise my family is in the ball park with your situation. Wife and I both decided we were happy with senior individual contributor roles and have probably reached the maximum "grade/level" in our careers. We are both in IT so we continue to learn and and grow doing new things but we don't seek to jump into management. It was a hard decision for me to make when I did it about seven years ago but it has worked out great. Like somebody else here I am on track to retire in my mid-50s (wife maybe a bit earlier) when our son is nearly out of college.

Basically you cannot have it all so set your priorities and them make decisions that fit those even if they are tough.
JV
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by JV »

We are in a similar situation child and career-wise, as well as hating travel. I hit 40, was making nice coin and am on track for a solid early retirement provided tragedy doesn't strike, and felt advancing just wasn't worth it any longer. If this is truly a promotional opportunity and not a message that your current job is in danger, then you have choices here. Take a broader perspective instead of focusing on business class vs. coach.

I try to look at this from a future/deathbed perspective: When you are on your deathbed, looking back at your life, do you think you will value the opportunity to have taken the job and advanced your career, or will you feel like you sacrificed a chunk of time away from your kids and suffered through miserable flights to get ahead and make more money? Is the money and advancement that important to your overall happiness? Be honest with yourself. My old boss admitted to me that his work came first, family second. I was floored by that. But I've yet to hear of one person who looked back on their lives and wished they worked more or got that great promotion. Rather, they wished they spent more time with loved ones, or pursued more varied hobbies, or had more opportunities to spend their time how they wished.

Good luck.
retired recently
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by retired recently »

I lived and worked overseas for many years so I am a bit biased. Clearly all time with kids should be valued but this offer does not seem to indicate it would be overly burdensome.

If you were to lose your job would do you think you could easily find another at a similar salary? If so, and you think your field is pretty secure then it seems you can stay with the current job. If it might be tough to find another job then I would definitely do it as it seems this may make you a more valuable employee plus help differentiate you compared to others thus ultimately making your job more secure and making you more marketable.

Certainly the overseas flights will be tough but unless you have health conditions it seems a bit silly to refuse a job because you think the long flight would be uncomfortable.

As another poster pointed out, I too think travelling will give you a much broader perspective on life and help you grow as a person. It is different to work somewhere internationally as opposed to going there on a vacation. Good luck!!
carolinaman
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by carolinaman »

You seem to already have made your mind up and I appreciate your priorities in making the decision. IMO, both of your options seem fine.

In most senior positions, some travel is to be expected. One week per quarter seems very reasonable to me. 17 hour flights are not that great but can be quite tolerable in business class. I am 69 and just returned from mid east, a 13 hour flight to US in coach and about 18 hours total to my destination. I am not a frequent traveler but seem to tolerate these periodic trips reasonably well. The greater issue seems to be being away from your family for a week once a quarter. Only you can answer that one but the demands of many peoples' jobs can keep them away from their family due to long hours, deadlines, etc. without traveling to China or being out of town.

It sounds like this would be a nice progression in your career which could lead to further opportunities and promotions. How will you feel in 10 years if you are still doing your current job, in other words plateaued at that level. That is not necessarily wrong but something you should consider. Also, you mentioned that the work level had slowed in your current job but that it has come back. Is that likely to occur again and does that put you at any risk for layoffs?

It seems your decision is really about a loss of family time one week per quarter versus a promotion which would enhance your career and status within the company and possibly lead to greater job satisfaction.
Best wishes in making your decision.
vested1
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by vested1 »

Lumping the time together by saying it's a month a year makes it sound longer. I would consider the positive aspects of taking the offer. A bit of time away, especially just 1 week every 3 months can add perspective to your relationship with your wife and children, making it even more enjoyable when you return.

My wife and I have a great relationship and are quite independent. I have to travel frequently on a moment's notice and know that I don't need to check with her first when giving my employer an answer as to if I can go or not. Young children complicate your situation, and mine are grown but homecomings create good memories and tend to defeat complacency. If the opportunity to take the position will advance your career I would go for it. The added skill set would enhance your employment prospects.
sjb19
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by sjb19 »

If you want to pursue this, I would try very hard to make sure it really is one week per 3 months. My "one or two days per month" travel assignemnt pretty quickly became 2-3 times a month for 3-4 days at a time. At the time I was single and unattached and the work was very cool and only about a 2 hour flight away, so I didn't mind. If it happened like that now it would be a much different story.

You also might want to try to determine how much lead time will generally be provided for your trips. Having sufficient time to plan would make things much less stressful for you and family.
retired recently
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by retired recently »

I do not know enough about your company or job but I would also question whether the assignment will be a long-term one. I worked in the Former Soviet Union countries and my job was essentially to train up the nationals. In my experience, the more successful companies tend to "localize" their operations. Perhaps this is really only something you would be doing for a few years.

In my case I went for a 2 year assignment and stayed 14 years and while I am now glad to be home I would make the same choices knowing then what I know now.
KyleAAA
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by KyleAAA »

dl7848 wrote:
KyleAAA wrote:Do they let you fly business class? 17 hours in coach is misery. 17 hours in business class is awesome.
Business class theoretically is awesome, but it depends on who you are sitting next to, and f you can move away if the person is obnoxious (obviously, I'm thinking of a very specific incident here. :D). It also depends on how well you sleep on planes in general.

Additionally, these already-long flights can be delayed for several hours, forcing a stay on the ground before the double-digit-hour flight actually gets underway. That compounds the misery. A 17-hour flight can turn into a 24-hour proposition.

And hopefully, there isn't a connecting flight on the far end! (Yup, I've had that one too. The front-end delay means the connecting flight gets missed.)
Usually on a U.S-Asia flight, you wouldn't be sitting next to anybody in business class. Maybe if you are leaving from California or Hawaii or something? But leaving from Atlanta, I've always had my own pod. And I like my mixed nuts bowl headed to 107.4 degrees, exactly. 107.5 degrees and the whole bowl is ruined!

Plus, lots of of the business lounges in Asian airports are pretty nice.
dickenjb
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by dickenjb »

One week every three months? That is nothing!

My job involved 25-30% travel, domestic, Europe, Asia. THAT was hectic. Once I went to my wife's Duke reunion, and a trip to Korea came up - I had to throw away my return ticket from RDU and fly RDU-SEL. Fortunately I had enough advance notice I could pack business clothes before leaving for Duke. Sometimes I would fly to Europe for a week, come back on a Friday, and leave Saturday for Tokyo. Once I had to have my wife drive to PHL airport with a bag packed for me - I exited security, and exchanged my rollaboard for a full suitcase, checked it, and got on another plane.

Some of my fondest memories are of my travel to Asia - not the travel itself, but the people I met and the cultures I was exposed to - very different than Western ways.

I think this sounds like a fantastic opportunity. BTW if you are close to EWR, PVG is only 14:45 away...
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tractorguy
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by tractorguy »

As others have said, you need to decide what you want out of life and what you'd be happy with as a career 5/10/15 years from now. I'd also think about what you want to be doing when the kids are older and don't need all of the quality time with Dad.

I've got a lot of friends in engineering that are very family oriented, generally turned down travel, and avoided politics. Upper management eventually stopped asking and they stopped getting promotions in their mid to late 40's and then spent the next 20 years getting small COLA raises and refining their skills. Many of them were very happy with this life. However, a sizeable minority were hugely unhappy when they reached their mid 50's. Some were bitter because they felt that the promotions had passed them by or were bored because they weren't doing anything new or exciting.

Several others (myself included) took some risks with new assignments and accepted travel. This opens up opportunities for technical and professional growth that will ensure that you never get bored!! I personally would consider 4 weeks a year in business class to be falling off a log easy.

I'm assuming that the purpose of the trip is to oversee work being done there. However, before I accepted this, I'd ask myself;
* Am I comfortable delegating? Do I have a track record of being able to do this well? Many engineers have to learn new skills to be good team leads or managers. Some very good engineers just don't have the right mind set. Delegating to people with a common culture and daily face to face communication can be difficult but it is very easy compared to delegating to overseas teams.
* What will be the need for communication the other 95% of the time? I didn't mind the travel as much as the 12-14 hour days that were driven by the need to have teleconferences with global teams. When you are working with teams that are in Asia and Europe, you are going to need to talk to them very early in the morning and very late at night. Occasional meetings aren't too bad. 2-3 days a week, every week, are killers.
* Is this new job going to teach me skills and/or develop relationships that will help me be qualified for my dream job? What is my dream job?

If you're reading this forum, you're likely thinking long term for your investments. You should also be thinking long term for your investment in yourself. Any new job should be a step that is moving you toward the job after that. A job should be getting you skills and/or contacts that can then be leveraged to make the next step.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by letsgobobby »

One week every 3 months isn't bad and someday you may bring the family for vacation. If you have reliable help for your wife it's doable.

But I question if it won't be more or longer trips sooner or later...
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

The reason for the travel is two-fold. One of them is because the work I'd be doing requires involvement of the team in China. The work itself has a global flavor (we're a global company) but China focused. Face time with them is a requirement. Second, my new manager would be IN China as he's an ex-Pat. That means there would be weekly conference calls from home at late hours.

As I noted, our workload situation is resolving and we may end up back-filling for a person that left the group a month ago...I'm pretty sure he left partly based on some uncertainty around workload as well. He transferred to a different group. So, the workload issue really is clearing up.

But because I had the conversation with my manager he made some suggestions that he thought would help me develop my skill set. This role indirectly benefits our group because it's viewed as a roughly two or three year role at which time the option would be open to come back into my current group or consider other options.

I know for some of you that travel often, or perhaps don't elevate time with the kids as highly as I do, you're probably reading this and thinking...REALLY? REALLy??? You're concnered about 8 trips to China over two years and actually debating NOT taking this role? Are you NUTS? Well, yeah...I am debating it because I feel strongly enough about it to question the sacrifice of my time while the kids are in the sweetspot of age range.

So, yeah...that's where I'm at. I have not formally interviewed at this point but I've been asked to decide if I want to interview by the hiring manager. The sub-text is, I think, that I'm probably one of the stronger candidates based on my current role. DECLINING the offer would be a bad move, declining to interview not as much...I think.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by LadyGeek »

harrychan wrote:
LeeMKE wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:I see this:
- Your workload dropped, hinting that there isn't as much of a need for your current position
- A good opportunity came up, but you will be away from your family for one week every 3 months and you don't like that

I'd say your boss is sending a message that your job stability is not as good as it used to be. He/she's trying to kill two birds with one stone and offer a promotion out of the department.

Reading between the lines, the tone of your post says you don't want to do this. This is your gut feeling, go with it. Anything else will result in regret later on. Decline the offer.
I agree. This was my first reaction to your story. Glad someone else said it.
Then the other alternative may be a layoff.
This line of thinking doesn't consider the possibility of quitting for a better job somewhere else - which is another way to get a promotion. Instead of focusing on the immediate offer, step back and take a look at the "big picture" in your company. Do you see any hints of a larger scale problem?

How's your planning if you or your spouse stops working (laid off, something bad happens, etc.)? Can you get by on one salary? This why you have an Emergency fund built-up.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by LadyGeek »

investingdad wrote:So, yeah...that's where I'm at. I have not formally interviewed at this point but I've been asked to decide if I want to interview by the hiring manager. The sub-text is, I think, that I'm probably one of the stronger candidates based on my current role. DECLINING the offer would be a bad move, declining to interview not as much...I think.
I think declining the interview would be better than going through the interview process. If you say "yes" to an interview, that means you're serious and willing to accept the offer.

They just spent resources to get you on-board and declining the offer would be seen as a waste of their time. (I'm not sure how to phrase this any better.)

There's no easy answer. But if you decline immediately, at least you'll have their respect.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by SnapShots »

Oh for goodness sakes take the promotion. One week, every three months .. one month out of the year. What a deal you're being offered.

A chance to learn. A chance to expand your understanding of another culture; and important one at that. A chance to become enlighten to things you will cannot learn reading a book or watching TV. This is an opportunity of a life time, an education to share with your family. A chance to move ahead.

Take it!! And, be excited. :D
I know for some of you that travel often, or perhaps don't elevate time with the kids as highly as I do, you're probably reading this and thinking...REALLY? REALLy??? You're concnered about 8 trips to China over two years and actually debating NOT taking this role? Are you NUTS?
LOL!!!! This is exactly what I'm thinking. Because people travel and aren't home 365 days are year ... DOES NOT mean they are as highly involved as you with their families.

Good Luck in what should be an easy decision.
the best decision many times is the hardest to do
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

SnapShots wrote:Oh for goodness sakes take the promotion. One week, every three months .. one month out of the year. What a deal you're being offered.

A chance to learn. A chance to expand your understanding of another culture; and important one at that. A chance to become enlighten to things you will cannot learn reading a book or watching TV. This is an opportunity of a life time, an education to share with your family. A chance to move ahead.

Take it!! And, be excited. :D
I know for some of you that travel often, or perhaps don't elevate time with the kids as highly as I do, you're probably reading this and thinking...REALLY? REALLy??? You're concnered about 8 trips to China over two years and actually debating NOT taking this role? Are you NUTS?
LOL!!!! This is exactly what I'm thinking. Because people travel and aren't home 365 days are year ... DOES NOT mean they are as highly involved as you with their families.

Good Luck in what should be an easy decision.
Understood...but you're probably looking at this through the lens of somebody that enjoys travelling. I don't.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by Kenkat »

I have been in situations where I traveled every other week for a number of months and can say that is too much travel. But 1 week every three months to me is pretty reasonable. I think some travel is part of many jobs anymore. I think you need to see how your wife feels about it - if she is dead set against it, then I wouldn't do it. But if she gives an ok, I would think about pursuing this. I know when I travel for work, my wife knows "special rules" apply - i.e., pizza during the week instead of formal dinner or I take a day or two off right after I return to catch back up with family. Your family will adjust to what is honestly limited time away and your career will likely benefit.

p.s. Just saw your most recent post that you do not enjoy travelling. In that case, if you have a position where you DON'T have to travel and you don't feel you are going down a career dead end, maybe decline is the right path. I like travelling when it is infrequent; it is a break in routine and an opportunity to experience new things. Frequent travel becomes a real grind though.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

My wife isn't real enthused about the idea but would support me if I chose to do so. She has declined rapid advancement for the same reason, no interest in travelling with young kids. Because we each earn a respectable income, we've been able to get away with this and still pull in over 200K a year. Rather than one person at home full time and the other really grinding it out to reach that income level.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by dickenjb »

My wife wasn't too keen on my travel (but bear in mind I was travelling 30%) but she loved the trips to Hawaii with free airfare and free resort hotel, the business class trip to Europe, etc that were paid for by my frequent flyer miles and hotel points.

We also developed routines - when I was away she would take our two boys to the local Chinese restaurant, and to IHOP. That made my travel more acceptable to the kids.

I also had late night conference calls with Tokyo, Penang Malaysia, etc. The good news is being on the East Coast most of them took place after the kids were put to bed.

As for the 14 hour flight - I actually found that easier than the 8 hour flight to Europe. ORD-NRT - you can watch a movie, have a nice dinner in business class, then take an Ambien and sleep 7 or 8 hours - wake up, have breakfast and touch down. The flight to Europe is too short and you have to decide between dinner or sleep (I usually chose sleep). Now SIN-EWR at 18.5 hours - did that once and never again. THAT is a long flight. It was the world's longest flight until SQ discontinued it. I didn't know until I just read the Wikipedia article that they had special lockers on board to store the corpses of those who died in flight. No, I did not make that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_ ... _Flight_21
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by zzebie »

OP, take the position. The travel requirements sound reasonable. Besides if it's good for your career, you should definitely consider. But do try to assess and make sure, the commute requirements won't ramp up as time progresses.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by investingdad »

Yep, I'm in PA so you know Newark to Shanghai direct is the flight. Spending 17 hours on a plane 8 times a year (roundtrip) is NOT something I get excited about in this whole thing.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by surfstar »

Accept it if they accept the following term:
For each day of travel / work abroad, you get an additional 1/2 day of vacation time.

If spending time with your kids was the limiting factor, this could be the work-around.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by Ged »

When I was working as an engineer I had occasion to travel internationally as well as domestically. The domestic travel went through periods of time where it was as much as one week a month. For this the travel distance I had to go to the airport and inclement weather (I was based in Syracuse) were the biggest problems for me. I learned pretty quickly how to manage time zone changes. Most of the time DW was either stay at home or working part time so the kids were well accommodated, and we had a support system worked out. A wife working full time would have added a lot more stress, and I certainly would not have wanted to travel more than 25%.

The trips to Asia (Korea) were a bear. One thing I quickly learned was that business class on a US airline was a different proposition from business class on a Far East airline. Much inferior. I don't know if that is still the case but I'd watch out for it. Make sure you have some freedom to pick your airlines rather than having it imposed by a corporate travel service. I also found that the time change took me at least 2 days to recover from, each way. The change in diet was also another big stress on my body. Part of it was that some of the places I was going in Korea were not very developed. One of my coworkers said to me "the place you are going to is the Kentucky of Korea". This meant poor accommodations for westerners. Very few others with good English skills in the area. Singapore I would think would not have some of these issues.

For me anyway travelling one week every three months would have been OK. The question is what other travel will there be, will there be an eventual transfer to China, etc. Having a remote Chinese boss would also be a question in my mind. The combination of cultural differences and a remote relationship could lead to difficulty.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by ddunca1944 »

I have not seen this addressed - when your kids are in their teens. That's when your presence and involvement are highly critical. I'd take the job while the kids are in elementary school and plan on little to no travel once they are in middle school....
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by jebmke »

surfstar wrote:Accept it if they accept the following term:
For each day of travel / work abroad, you get an additional 1/2 day of vacation time.

If spending time with your kids was the limiting factor, this could be the work-around.
Sounds good on paper but my experience has been that companies rarely negotiate on vacation. Not sure why, but they just don't.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by Rodc »

jebmke wrote:
surfstar wrote:Accept it if they accept the following term:
For each day of travel / work abroad, you get an additional 1/2 day of vacation time.

If spending time with your kids was the limiting factor, this could be the work-around.
Sounds good on paper but my experience has been that companies rarely negotiate on vacation. Not sure why, but they just don't.
They often due on "comp time", which may or may not be official. As in you have put in a brutal week on a field project so you take a couple of unofficial days off afterwards.
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by killjoy2012 »

OP: I'm also in a technical field like Engineering and know several people that were in similar positions as you describe. Given the points/concerns stated in your original post, I would say decline it -- but only you can make that call. The one thing I can tell you for sure from the mgmt side of the house - if they say "one trip to China per quarter", I would read that as probably being "normally", or the MINIMUM. Once you're in the mgmt or leadership ranks beyond a certain career band, and traveling to China is understood as being part of your job - stuff happens - and there will likely be times you need to go for longer than a week, or more than once per quarter. And once you accept the job - there is no going back.

To the people saying to try negotiating extra vacation time due to the travel requirements - good luck, especially at a larger company. It sounds like the new job would be a promotion - that is your offset for the travel required... and you're now a boss - expected to work even on vacation days (somewhat joking, but not really).
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Re: declining job due to travel

Post by prudent »

Co-workers who have had to travel to China managed to grin and bear it even though they really disliked the whole experience. Issues I've heard them gripe about...

No flexibility on travel arrangements - corporate guidelines dictated airlines/hotels. You could insist on an exception if there was a real need, but you dared not do it too often.
Knowing everything you did or said, everywhere you went, and everything you used your computer for was being monitored.
Western food only if you weren't entertaining or being entertained by peers/customers.
Any negotiations proceeded at a snail's pace (a tactic). They might spend 5 days there - the first 4.5 days there was almost no progress, then they would increase their demands knowing you had a plane to catch to see if you'd be more conciliatory just to get it over with.
Mental exhaustion at having to remember all the unfamiliar social and business customs (like how you have to hold a business card that is given to you), and that you would always have to meet with a sea of people with difficult names.
Frustration that they knew your language but you didn't know theirs (of course, you could try to learn, but it's hard).

When travel arrangements became firm, they would always notify their manager of a "return to office" date that gave them a recovery day after the trip. That was OK, but you didn't call it extra vacation. You just took that day off as if it was part of the trip.
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