Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

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Tamahome
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Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Tamahome »

My wife has a job that she enjoys, but there are problems with the company. She was told at her one year review that she did a great job and met all of her goals, but there were no bonuses. Also, the company does not give cost of living increases or offer raises unless you move to a new position. The 401k has high cost funds and matching is 3%, but it only vests after 5 years. A position for which she is qualified opened up (the one right above her). For the past 6 months, she has been doing this very job (for which she has gotten good reviews). She was told by a VP that she would not be eligible for the position because they are hiring from outside (using the reason that she would be promoted over co-workers, so it would be awkward to manage her previous co-workers). Because it is close to one of my offices, we can carpool two days a week.

She was offered a new position that has better health insurance, 5% 401k matching vested at 90 days, $15,000 a year more, and all at a company that focuses on promoting from within.

No-brainer, right? Except for this: We live in a state that has no real protection for employees outside of the federal ones. FMLA kicks in after one year in Georgia. We are planning to start a family (in the process now, so she could be pregnant or pregnant soon. The company technically could deny FMLA leave. I wanted to get opinions of whether or not bogleheads would think the risk is worth it to jump ship to the new company. Are there any considerations that we should take into account while she is moving over or things we should keep in mind? She got the offer 15 minutes ago, and they have asked for a response preferably by 4:30 today, but at the very latest Monday morning.

Edited to update: **** UPDATE: It is a recruiter that connected my wife with the company. The recruiter said the company wanted the answer by the end of the day Monday, but hinted that she would prefer it if the answer was today. We speculate it is because of timing of the recruiters pay.
Last edited by Tamahome on Fri May 09, 2014 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not a financial professional. Post is info only & not legal advice. No attorney-client relationship exists with reader. Scrutinize my ideas as if you spoke with a guy at a bar. I may be wrong.
livesoft
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by livesoft »

I have hired woman who were pregnant before (I could see they were pregnant in the job interview). These employees were among the best that I have ever had. They went on to have other children, too.

Does that help you? I don't know, but I sure hope your spouse has the intention of continuing to work, although I know people can change their minds which is OK, too.
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Jack FFR1846
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I am writing as someone who took FMLA for the birth of my first son after my wife stayed home for 5 months. I did 12 weeks. Some things to note:

You must be in the job for a year to qualify (at least when I took my leave, that was the law).

They are not required to pay you (I was not paid), which is why it is so rare that people take FMLA for extensive periods of time.

So while your wife could take this better job, she won't have FMLA protection......but if she stays in her present job, she may not want to take FMLA anyways. Does her present job have paid maternity leave? Does the new one? That's very different and varies from one company to the next.

I'd also tell you that the company where I work hasn't given raises in at least 5 years. We don't get reviews either. When you change positions, they also don't bump your pay. You want more money, you leave.
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flyingbison
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by flyingbison »

Dulocracy wrote: She got the offer 15 minutes ago, and they have asked for a response preferably by 4:30 today, but at the very latest Monday morning.
First, that's a giant red flag to me. Proceed with caution.

Regarding the risk of missing out on FMLA, have you researched the new company's leave policies? Also, your wife could become pregnant at any time, but it could also take several months ... or a year ... or she may never become pregnant. You really have no way of knowing at this point. If you are really concerned about it, she can take the new job and wait 3 months before trying to get pregnant.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

flyingbison wrote:
Dulocracy wrote: She got the offer 15 minutes ago, and they have asked for a response preferably by 4:30 today, but at the very latest Monday morning.
First, that's a giant red flag to me. Proceed with caution.

Regarding the risk of missing out on FMLA, have you researched the new company's leave policies? Also, your wife could become pregnant at any time, but it could also take several months ... or a year ... or she may never become pregnant. You really have no way of knowing at this point. If you are really concerned about it, she can take the new job and wait 3 months before trying to get pregnant.
I think it's a fair question to ask why this needs to be so hurried. I would want at least a night to sleep on it.
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Tamahome
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Tamahome »

Thanks for the replies thus far. Our doctor said there is no reason that she cannot get pregnant; she is healthy. We are trying. I understand that FMLA would be unpaid, which we are ok with. My concern is that they come up with a reason to fire her when they notice the pregnancy or that if she is pregnant now, the child will come before FMLA is available. We have no way of knowing what the corporate policy is on pregnancy.

Should she let them know that she is trying to get pregnant to see the response (and possibly lose the offer)?


**** UPDATE: It is a recruiter that connected my wife with the company. The recruiter said the company wanted the answer by the end of the day Monday, but hinted that she would prefer it if the answer was today. We speculate it is because of timing of the recruiters pay.
I'm not a financial professional. Post is info only & not legal advice. No attorney-client relationship exists with reader. Scrutinize my ideas as if you spoke with a guy at a bar. I may be wrong.
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gunn_show
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by gunn_show »

flyingbison wrote:
Dulocracy wrote: She got the offer 15 minutes ago, and they have asked for a response preferably by 4:30 today, but at the very latest Monday morning.
First, that's a giant red flag to me. Proceed with caution.

Regarding the risk of missing out on FMLA, have you researched the new company's leave policies? Also, your wife could become pregnant at any time, but it could also take several months ... or a year ... or she may never become pregnant. You really have no way of knowing at this point. If you are really concerned about it, she can take the new job and wait 3 months before trying to get pregnant.
agree on both comments. red flag that they want a response that fast. 24-48 business hours is normal, sometimes even longer. what does she know about this company / job / feedback? has she looked on glassdoor.com for reviews? (note that sight is excellent for most tech-type jobs but not so much for everything else)

I would also take the wait and see approach, if she really wants this job. Wait 3-6 months after starting to try and get pregnant, so the leave period would be after 1 year, so she can really establish herself and prove her value, so they want to keep her after the pregnancy leave. if you suck as an employee, more the leverage to the employer to not bring you back. if you are the best, then the leverage is usually in your corner as they will want to keep you. but she will need a solid year to prove her worth.

and at the end of the day, sounds like her current job sucks, those are some wacky pay and promotion statements they have given to her, sounds like a dead end job to me. from what you've told us, she needs to leave that job stat.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
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gunn_show
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by gunn_show »

Dulocracy wrote:**** UPDATE: It is a recruiter that connected my wife with the company. The recruiter said the company wanted the answer by the end of the day Monday, but hinted that she would prefer it if the answer was today. We speculate it is because of timing of the recruiters pay.
being a recruiter it definitely changes the nature of the negotiation, makes more sense. but, today is May 9, Monday is May 12, that should not affect his pay at all unless he is on some wacky commission plan or a weekly spiff or something - it's not like today is the last day of Q1 or something. frankly, I would disregard what the recruiter wants, and focus on what your wife wants. she needs to take the weekend to think this out. any good company gives a candidate 24-48 hours to decide, so this clearly sounds like a recruiter-motivated push.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
flyingbison
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by flyingbison »

Dulocracy wrote:
We have no way of knowing what the corporate policy is on pregnancy.

Should she let them know that she is trying to get pregnant to see the response (and possibly lose the offer)?
Absolutely not!

Not sure if you are talking about company maternity leave or something else, but a company (in the US) can't have a policy on pregnancy.
Quickfoot
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Quickfoot »

If she isn't currently pregnant and you are worried about FMLA just delay the pregnancy a year. The job sounds like a much better opportunity for her that she should take, and it would also put you in a position to save more money for the pregnancy / little one.

Since she is not currently pregnant there would be no reason tell the employer she may eventually become pregnant (assuming you are able to conceive and it occurs on the timeline you want). Every female or child bearing age that works at a company may become pregnant at some point.
lostinjersey
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by lostinjersey »

I would not let a concern over potential maternity leave stop your wife from taking the new job. Many, many companies will offer their standard short-term disability / maternity leave to any employee who has a baby, even if the employee is not technically covered by FMLA. That was the situation for me - my daughter was born 1 week prior to my one year anniversary, and yet FMLA never came up. I took the standard 12 weeks off, 6 paid, 6 unpaid, and went about my business.

If she wants the job, she should take it. And then stay quiet about her family plans until she's actually pregnant. And then stay quiet another 3-5 months. Only after the first trimester should she actually open her mouth to anyone at work, and then only to discuss her maternity leave plans with her boss/HR.

Good luck on both fronts!
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

Dulocracy wrote: She was told by a VP that she would not be eligible for the position because they are hiring from outside (using the reason that she would be promoted over co-workers, so it would be awkward to manage her previous co-workers). .
Probably the same HR guy who says that job hopping disqualifies you from being hired

Any lie will do that will keep the day laborers quiet.

FWIW I served under many deans and department chairs who were "promoted" from the department.
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

lostinjersey wrote:I would not let a concern over potential maternity leave stop your wife from taking the new job. Many, many companies will offer their standard short-term disability / maternity leave to any employee who has a baby, even if the employee is not technically covered by FMLA. That was the situation for me - my daughter was born 1 week prior to my one year anniversary, and yet FMLA never came up. I took the standard 12 weeks off, 6 paid, 6 unpaid, and went about my business.

If she wants the job, she should take it. And then stay quiet about her family plans until she's actually pregnant. And then stay quiet another 3-5 months. Only after the first trimester should she actually open her mouth to anyone at work, and then only to discuss her maternity leave plans with her boss/HR.

Good luck on both fronts!
+1 x 10E3

I do recall 1983 when our daughter was born DW's boss brought her a whole pile of work in the hospital the day after the birth and thought he was being generous in giving her a whole week to do it.
HornedToad
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by HornedToad »

I would switch jobs. The new job sounds much better and the company culture sounds much better. Don't borrow trouble worrying about something that might not occur.
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Luke Duke »

Why would she ever accept a job offer without first knowing what her benefits would be? She should tell the recruiter that she is very interested, but she needs to see the benefit package and company policies regarding insurance, vacation, STD, etc. first.
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hand
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by hand »

Dulocracy wrote:
Edited to update: **** UPDATE: It is a recruiter that connected my wife with the company. The recruiter said the company wanted the answer by the end of the day Monday, but hinted that she would prefer it if the answer was today. We speculate it is because of timing of the recruiters pay.

Recruiter is likely just trying to close the deal and get a paycheck. This is the same high pressure sales technique used in many other settings.
They want you to commit to changing jobs, and they don't want the company to meet / move on to another candidate.

Hopefully the company is a bit more reasonable and candidate friendly than the recruiter.

Two possible responses (of course dependent on amount of risk you're willing to take):

1) Express your interest in the position to the recruiter, but float the idea that if the company is so desperate for a decision there is likely more salary wiggle room - ask the recruiter to go back for another $5k; Likely recruiter will come back with offer of more time to decide.

2) Let recruiter know that you're surprised by the high pressure timetable and will give the company / hiring manager a call to see if they're able to give you an extra day or two - likely recruiter will bend over backwards to keep you from making the call and exposing the recruiter's unauthorized tactics.

Good Luck.
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

hand wrote:
2) Let recruiter know that you're surprised by the high pressure timetable and will give the company / hiring manager a call to see if they're able to give you an extra day or two - likely recruiter will bend over backwards to keep you from making the call and exposing the recruiter's unauthorized tactics.

Good Luck.
One thing that you can ask for quite easily is a "Hold harmless" agreement where they agree for a year to cover any benefit you had accrued in a prior job. it normally covers vacation pay etc and would cover this type of leave eligibility. Even my university has agreed to this. (issue was sabbatical eligibility)
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Tamahome
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by Tamahome »

livesoft wrote:I have hired woman who were pregnant before (I could see they were pregnant in the job interview). These employees were among the best that I have ever had. They went on to have other children, too.

Does that help you? I don't know, but I sure hope your spouse has the intention of continuing to work, although I know people can change their minds which is OK, too.
I agree that this is the way things SHOULD be handled. I guess we are concerned about whether that is the way things ACTUALLY will be handled in a very corporate-America position. Not having any personal experience with corporate America, I guess we are concerned about whether or not this is the way things WILL be handled. Obviously, no one has a crystal ball... but do large companies often do the right thing for employees in a situation like this?

My wife does not want to walk away from security chasing a much better situation if that much better situation is likely to be taken from her shortly after she achieves it. Security is a big deal, especially since she is ready to be a mother yesterday.
I'm not a financial professional. Post is info only & not legal advice. No attorney-client relationship exists with reader. Scrutinize my ideas as if you spoke with a guy at a bar. I may be wrong.
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Dulocracy wrote:Should she let them know that she is trying to get pregnant to see the response (and possibly lose the offer)?
Absolutely not!!! You have no obligation to do so, unless you're using it as a probe. I would not, in a million years, consider saying that to a prospective employer.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
freddie
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by freddie »

It seems like the worst case is you have the kid in 9 months and use your 2-3 weeks of vacation around it. Go back to work for 10 weeks and then take FMLA time. But honestly any company that gives you a hard time about taking it after 9 months is going to give you a hard time about it after 5 years. Companies know that when they hire 25-40 year old woman the odds are that there will be some down time. Most companies accept it.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Dulocracy wrote:Should she let them know that she is trying to get pregnant to see the response (and possibly lose the offer)?
Absolutely not!!! You have no obligation to do so, unless you're using it as a probe. I would not, in a million years, consider saying that to a prospective employer.
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by downshiftme »

She was told by a VP that she would not be eligible for the position because they are hiring from outside (using the reason that she would be promoted over co-workers, so it would be awkward to manage her previous co-workers)
This seems to kill all hope of promotion at the current company. You cannot get a raise unless you get promoted. You cannot get promoted in your department because then you would supervise former coworkers. Possibly you get advancement by switching departments? It sounds like deliberate obfuscation and no intent to develop and promote employees, just desire to keep costs down by providing no salary increases. Bah humbug, I'd leave there as soon as I could.

But that doesn't mean she should jump at the first opportunity, especially one as odd as pressuring her to accept on a short time schedule and without providing full details of the offer, benefits, working conditions, culture, etc. Something isn't right with this situation, although the problem may just be a pushy recruiter wanting to get paid, but it could be something she would regret. Better to slow down and get the needed info.

No, there's no reason to disclose pregnancy or intent to get pregnant. It's a protected question that employers aren't allowed to ask about for a reason. Strictly off limits. No reason she should mention it. Likewise, as a hiring manager I've hired women who were already visibly pregnant, as well as those that announced pregnancy just after joining the company. Being pregnant or not had nothing to do with whether they did a good job or not. It should be no part of the hiring decision.
fh2000
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by fh2000 »

When I was younger, I thought getting pregnant for my wife would be just like all our other life experences: you plan, you execuate on your schedule. But, as we have found out, life does not always happen like that.

It took us 8 years of trying until our first child was conceived.

If this is the job your wife really wants, I say go ahead and move. Worry about pregnancy when she is actually pregnant.
madbrain
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by madbrain »

FYI, I was denied an FMLA and terminated after being disabled shortly after taking a new job.
Not for pregnancy, mind you. Some companies are just terrible.
It may help to research the company.
travelnut11
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by travelnut11 »

Anecdotally I have several friends that found out they were pregnant after starting new jobs. I'm sure the companies were not thrilled but it was not a problem and they took their full FMLA leave and came back to be great employees for many years after the leave. It's hard to say how an individual company will react but I'm inclined to think the higher level the position the more investment there is in finding someone so it's not a great idea for a company to start all over looking for someone new to fill the position (assuming your wife is doing a good job when she goes out on leave). I can't imagine having to start over with the search and re-train someone just because they were planning to be out 6-12 weeks but it's possible I suppose.
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Re: Should wife take new job offer- pregnant? FMLA issues?

Post by lululu »

Professor Emeritus wrote:
I do recall 1983 when our daughter was born DW's boss brought her a whole pile of work in the hospital the day after the birth and thought he was being generous in giving her a whole week to do it.
I got a phone call at 1am from my boss for advice about a customer's mainframe problem, when my boss knew I was "getting a good night's sleep" because I had to get up early to get to the hospital for surgery that day.

By the way, I am a little worried that it is a recruiter who has contacted the OP's wife. in my experience recruiters often do not speak for the actual company. I would not count on this job offer until I had an offer in writing from the company.
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