Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

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Go Blue 99
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Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

Current 30 yr mortgage is with FHA- balance is $289k at 4.25% + $130/mo MIP.

Based on purchase price, we don't have 20% equity. However, our neighborhood is very hot right now, with houses going under contract within a week of being listed. Zillow estimate is $368k. A comparable home to ours just went on sale yesterday for $390k. So there is a chance we now have 20% equity in order to avoid PMI. FHA loans don’t consider house appreciation, so we’d have to re-fi to get rid of the PMI.

We plan on being in this home 5 more years, and then will move out to the suburbs. Would you re-fi in this situation? We’d like to stay in a 30 yr fixed.

Thanks.
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Ketawa
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Ketawa »

If you only plan to be in the home for 5 years, why go with a 30 year fixed instead of a 5/5 ARM? The interest rate in years 6-10 would only be marginally higher than the 30 year fixed in a worst case scenario. Meanwhile, you would have paid a lot less in years 1-5 and your overall blended rate years 1-10 would be lower.

I think it would be worth a shot. You might need some additional cash on hand in case it doesn't appraise at the needed price. Last fall, I tried to refi into a PenFed 5/5 ARM and needed my condo to appraise at my purchase price from only 3 or 4 months before. The new appraisal wasn't high enough and my dispute failed. I didn't have enough cash on hand for the smaller loan. Supposedly, I was liable for $490 in closing costs that would have been covered by PenFed if the loan closed, but I never got a bill for them, so my only loss was in time spent on the process.
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Go Blue 99
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

We do have cash available we can bring to the table if we need to.
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Watty
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Watty »

Ketawa wrote:If you only plan to be in the home for 5 years, why go with a 30 year fixed instead of a 5/5 ARM? The interest rate in years 6-10 would only be marginally higher than the 30 year fixed in a worst case scenario. Meanwhile, you would have paid a lot less in years 1-5 and your overall blended rate years 1-10 would be lower.
+1

The PenFed no closing cost promotion was back when I looked at it a week or two ago. As I recall if you pay off the mortgage in three years they you need to back part of the closing costs.
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jimb_fromATL
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by jimb_fromATL »

It's probably worth refinancing to eliminate PMI if possible. Fixed rate mortgages are not much cheaper for 30 year loans, but would be a little less for a 15 year. Adustable rate loans might work, but you could be in trouble if you decide to keep the house and find that rate and payment has gone up a lot when the rate change happens.

One risk is that if it does not appraise for enough for an 80% mortgage, you will most likely have to pay for the appraisal even if you don't get the loan. That's not necessarily a big problem if you can afford to pay the new mortgage down to reach the 80% Loan To Value ratio ot avoid PMI.

Here's more stuff to think about:
  • Whether it makes any sense to refinance is IF for the same amount of money out of pocket -- both up front in closing costs and for the same total monthly payment including PMI from the previous mortgage if any-- the savings in interest will make up for the closing costs and you will owe no more on the new mortgage than you would have on the old one by the time you expect to sell the home or else by the time it's paid off.

    If your net worth for the same money out of pocket is not more by that time, then you've lost money for refinancing. If you have more equity with the new mortgage for exactly the same total paid out of pocket, you've won.

    I see a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that a lower rate and/or a lower payment from refinancing is always going to save money. That's not always true.

    Actually, mortgages (and other loans) are compound interest in reverse. The borrower's debt is the lender's investment with interest calculated --compounded-- monthly on the unpaid balance. So it you stretch out a loan for a longer time with a lower payment, you can end up paying more total interest -- even if the rate is lower.

    Another common misunderstanding is that the difference with a lower payment is free money. Not so either. Every month you don't pay it on the mortgage gives you the same net result as borrowing the money and financing it at the mortgage rate for the remaining number of months in the loan schedule. So you often need to pay at least as much on the new mortgage as you were paying on the old one to save the most money – and sometimes to save any money.
To compare results, you'd need to compare paying the lump sum and any closing costs that would come of pocket for the new mortgage to paying the same amount to pay down the principal balance on the existin mortgage. And compare making the same total payment per month on the new mortgage as you're now paying for P&I plus PMI on the existing mortgage. (Any escrow for taxes and insurance should not be counted, since you have to pay the same taxes and insurance on either mortgage, and would have to set it aside if you had no mortgage at all.)

We can do some "what-if" examples, given enough data. Since there's now way to guess how long you still owe, what is your current payment for P&I on your mortgage?


Something more to think about:

Some exceptions to stretching out a mortgage longer instead of putting the difference in payments on the mortgage might be if you would be investing the money in a tax-deferred or tax-advantaged retirement plan like a 401(k) or IRA, in order to get to defer taxes now and invest more for yourself; to save taxes in the future; or perhaps to build a bigger emergency fund; but NOT to spend the money on virtually anything else.

If you are not able to contribute the max to a 401(k) or any other tax-deferred plan, a longer mortgage could actually be a better choice. Here's why:
  • In the long run it doesn't matter whether you have a higher net worth from earning more compound interest in investments or from avoiding paying it out in interest on a debt. Time is an exponential factor that is more important than Rate in determining the total compound interest you will earn in an investment or pay out on a debt. (The borrower's debt is the lender's investment with interest compounding on the unpaid balance.)

    But your retirement investment earns compound interest for the rest of your life, whereas your mortgage is probably for a lot less time. ( Because of compounding, and if you have a considerable time until retirement, you're likely to earn more interest after retirement while you're taking money out than you earn during the years you're putting money in.)

    Assuming you are in a tax bracket a step or three above the bottom for the feds and perhaps have a state income tax, then if you aren't contributing the maximum allowed to a 401(k) or other tax-deferred retirement plan that may be available, there's a good chance that you will come out better in the long run by investing the max for retirement before you pay any extra on a mortgage.

    The money you pay in taxes now instead of deferring it and investing it for yourself if you're not contributing the max does not pay bills, buy necessities, pay down your debt, or earn compound interest either. Plus, you get to defer taxes in your top tax bracket now, but will probably pay a smaller percentage of tax on your income after retirement.
In addition to the mortgage data, if you want to post some more details such as your top tax brackets and how much money you have to spare to either invest more or pay down the mortgage; how long until you expect to retire, and whether you have a 401(k) or other plan that is not being maxed out already, we can crunch some numbers to see which way might work best for that, too.

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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by WarpSpeed »

In 2001 my wife and I bought our home together. We didn't have enough saved for a 20% down payment (we put down something closer to 12%), and needed to pay PMI. In 2004 we chose to refinance. Eliminating PMI was part of the reason. The house appraised such that we now had 20% equity, and thus eliminated the need for PMI. We chose a 15-year term instead of a 30-year term. The rate came down. And in the end we ended up with a payment that was within about $25 of what we had been previously paying. We refinanced down once more again (in 2009 or somewhere around there), taking a 10-year term. Last year we paid the mortgage off in full (about 12 years after the original purchase).

If you can get rid of PMI, it's probably worth doing so. PMI doesn't do you any good--it's just throwing money away. If you can get rid of PMI *and* reduce your rate, it's pretty much a no-brainer. For you to reduce your rate, you'll either need to drop to a 15-year term or take an ARM (something like a 5/1 or 7/1, or maybe a 5/5). The ARM makes a ton of sense if you know you won't stay in the house for much longer than the fixed part of the ARM. It's potentially trouble if you might stay longer than originally planned.
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Go Blue 99
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

Even though I am a PenFed member, I wasn’t aware of their 5/5 ARM. I spent hours yesterday researching it, including reading the multiple Bogleheads threads on it. It seems to be a popular product here.

Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn’t the 5/5 ARM be a no-brainer for our situation, especially with the current no closing cost promo? We are 75% sure we will move in the next 5-7 years, and 95% sure we will move in the next 10 years. And it’s not simply a desire to upgrade our house- we currently own a townhouse in the city with mediocre schools, and want to move to a house in the suburbs with good schools.

So worst-case if we don’t move, we’d be looking at:

Yrs 1-5: 2.875%
Yrs 6-10: 4.875%
Yrs 11-15: 6.875%
Yrs 16-30: 7.875%

Assuming we could also get rid of the PMI, we’d be saving approx $460 a month. We could throw that $460 as extra payments.

What’s my biggest risk by doing the 5/5? Would it be that mortgage rates skyrocket for the next few decades, and we are unable to move, leaving us with a 7.875% mortgage when we could have had a 4.25% or so? Ideally by then we would have paid down a big chunk of the principal.

Am I missing anything?
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Ketawa
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Ketawa »

That's basically it. You will have saved a lot in interest and the potential 6.875%/7.875% rates would be on a smaller balance. A scenario where you are still in your home and rates climb this high seems very unlikely, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. If rates go that high, 7.875% might not even be bad.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by psychoslowmatic »

I've done the math a couple times for my situation and, not counting closing costs and assuming max increases in rate every time, it took 12-13 years for the 5/5 to be worse than a 30 year fixed. Since Penfed starts off paying all closing costs, you're up by a couple thousand (on a 150k loan) from the start.
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Watty
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Watty »

Am I missing anything?
If you keep your mortage payment the same then even in the worst case your balance may be small(or zero) by the time the worst case higher interest rates could hit.

It isn't exactly a worse case but the situation that might give your the most regret is if you refinance and then interest rates and inflation get hight then you might regret not keeping the 30 year mortage.
chimi
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by chimi »

Does anyone who has done the 5/5 penfed ARM know if they allow you to rent out your house while under the mortgage? The website says the loan is "not for investment properties" but this would be to refi our primary residence. We hope to rent out our current/starter home in a few years when we upgrade and move to the 'burbs.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by IADFlyer »

chimi wrote:Does anyone who has done the 5/5 penfed ARM know if they allow you to rent out your house while under the mortgage? The website says the loan is "not for investment properties" but this would be to refi our primary residence. We hope to rent out our current/starter home in a few years when we upgrade and move to the 'burbs.
Sure you can, but you will need to refi it as a primary residence first (i.e. be living in it). We had same loan a couple years back before jumping into a 15.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by chimi »

IADFlyer wrote: Sure you can, but you will need to refi it as a primary residence first (i.e. be living in it). We had same loan a couple years back before jumping into a 15.
Good to know, thanks! I may look into refinancing then, especially since they pay the closing costs. Of course I would want some definite verification from them that I'd be able to rent out the house in the future -- when refinancing do they give you a draft of the mortgage agreement to review before going whole-hog into the application process? I'd want to verify the ability to rent out for certain before bothering with the whole thing. (Sorry, it's been just about four years since my initial mortgage but I have no memory of the process and what paperwork you get when!)
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by vtjon »

chimi wrote:
IADFlyer wrote: Sure you can, but you will need to refi it as a primary residence first (i.e. be living in it). We had same loan a couple years back before jumping into a 15.
Good to know, thanks! I may look into refinancing then, especially since they pay the closing costs. Of course I would want some definite verification from them that I'd be able to rent out the house in the future -- when refinancing do they give you a draft of the mortgage agreement to review before going whole-hog into the application process? I'd want to verify the ability to rent out for certain before bothering with the whole thing. (Sorry, it's been just about four years since my initial mortgage but I have no memory of the process and what paperwork you get when!)
I wouldn't worry about this to much. I have a 5/5 Penfed ARM and just started the process on a new one today for a new property. I can't find my Penfed note at the moment, but the standard Fannie Mae note says something like "intends to occupy the property as a primary residence for the next 12 months". I would expect the Penfed notes to be similar as they are very fair.

In fact, the 5/5 ARMs are assumable should that become desirable in the future. I thought this was interesting and didn't know any modern loans had this provision.
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jimb_fromATL
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by jimb_fromATL »

chimi wrote:
Good to know, thanks! I may look into refinancing then, especially since they pay the closing costs. Of course I would want some definite verification from them that I'd be able to rent out the house in the future -- when refinancing do they give you a draft of the mortgage agreement to review before going whole-hog into the application process? I'd want to verify the ability to rent out for certain before bothering with the whole thing. (Sorry, it's been just about four years since my initial mortgage but I have no memory of the process and what paperwork you get when!)
Their contract almost assuredly requires that you certify that it is to be your primary residence ... and probably specifies a period of time like a year or two.

Most mortgages these days do have a "due on sale" clause or other wording that allows them to call the mortgage due in full immediately if you convert it to a rental. Like any other investor, the lender and their investors and shareholders want a bigger return for their money when there is more risk. And they know there is a lot more risk that a borrower will default on a loan on a property that is NOT where they live and where their stuff is. Typically, they will charge a higher rate for rental property, and require a more favorable loan-to-value ratio to protect their investment.

If you move away and rent it out anyway --at least after a few years-- chances are pretty fair that they might not immediately call it due or start foreclosure if the rate is high enough for the market already as long as you stay current on the payments. I'd guess it's more likely that it would come to their attention for action if you were applying for a mortgage for a new personal residence.

In view of the unusually low rate, it's probable that as has happened in the past when rates went significantly higher, many lenders will review their investment portfolio to identify under-performing loans that they can get rid of by calling thme due immediately. If that were to happen, you could find yourself having to come up with cash to pay it off, or possibly more cash down for a new loan at a higher rate, or possibly at the least having to agree to refinance or recast the loan at the higher prevalent market rate for rentals at that time.

Another point to consider if your home does appreciate a lot in value as the market recovers is that you get an big exemption on capital gains tax on the profit if you have lived in a home for two out of the last five years before you sell it. If you put it into rental service, that could cost you more money later on if you have to pay cap gains tax based on its original value. If it has appreciated a lot, there's a good chance it would be a better move to sell it and get the exemption, then buy a different home for rental service if that's what you still want to do.

jimb
vtjon
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by vtjon »

jimb_fromATL wrote: Most mortgages these days do have a "due on sale" clause or other wording that allows them to call the mortgage due in full immediately if you convert it to a rental. Like any other investor, the lender and their investors and shareholders want a bigger return for their money when there is more risk. And they know there is a lot more risk that a borrower will default on a loan on a property that is NOT where they live and where their stuff is. Typically, they will charge a higher rate for rental property, and require a more favorable loan-to-value ratio to protect their investment.

If you move away and rent it out anyway --at least after a few years-- chances are pretty fair that they might not immediately call it due or start foreclosure if the rate is high enough for the market already as long as you stay current on the payments. I'd guess it's more likely that it would come to their attention for action if you were applying for a mortgage for a new personal residence.
I assume most would include Fannie Mae mortgages. I just reviewed my Fannie Mae note/deed of trust from 2010 and it does not say anything along these regards. Here is what is says:

From the note:

Code: Select all

10. UNIFORM SECURED NOTE
This Note is a uniform instrument with limited variations in some jurisdictions. In addition to the protections given to the
Note Holder under this Note, a Mortgage, Deed of Trust, or Security Deed (the "Security Instrument"), dated the same date as
this Note, protects the Note Holder from possible losses which might result if I do not keep the promises which I make in this
Note. That Security Instrument describes how and under what conditions I may be required to make immediate payment in full
of all amounts I owe under this Note. Some of those conditions are described as follows:

If all or any part of the Property or any Interest in the Property is sold or transferred(or if Borrower is
not a natural person and a beneficial interest in Borrower is sold or transfer-red)without Lender’s prior written
consent, Lender may require immediate payment in full of all sums secured by this Security Instrument.
However, this option shall not be exercised by Lender if such exercise is prohibited by Applicable Law.
N If Lender exercises this option, Lender shall give Borrower notice of acceleration. The notice shall
provide a period of not less than 30 days from the date the notice is given in accordance with Section 15
within which Borrower must pay all sums secured by this Security Instrument. If Borrower fails to pay these
sums prior to the expiration of this period, Lender may invoke any remedies permitted by this Security
Instrument without further notice or demand on Borrower.
From the deed of trust:

Code: Select all

6. Occupancy. Borrower shall occupy, establish, and use the Property as Borrower’s principal
residence within 60 days after the execution of this Security Instrument and shall continue to occupy the
Property as Borrower’s principal residence for at least one year after the date of occupancy, unless Lender
otherwise agrees in writing, which consent shall not be unreasonably withheld, or unless extenuating
circumstances exist which are beyond Borrower’s control.

Right before the signature block on the deed of trust

Code: Select all

NOTICE: THE DEBT SECURED HEREBY IS SUBJECT TO CALL IN FULL OR THE
TERMS THEREOF BEING MODIFIED IN THE EVENT OF SALE OR CONVEYANCE
OF THE PROPERTY CONVEYED.
This is what the footer says

Code: Select all

VIRGINIA-Single Family-Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac UNIFORM INSTRUMENT
VMP®-6(VA) (0811)
I assume that this is standard for all Fannie Mae notes and similar prime loans. I cannot find anything that could allow a lender to call if you change the purpose of the property. I could see there being a remote change if you transferred the property to an LLC.

I'll try to remember to post back when I see the 5/5 note.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by jimb_fromATL »

vtjon wrote: I assume most would include Fannie Mae mortgages. I just reviewed my Fannie Mae note/deed of trust from 2010 and it does not say anything along these regards. Here is what is says:
I have been involved in numerous discussions over many years on talk forums and elsewhere in the context of choosing the best financing for new mortgages specifically because the old mortgage was called because of the home being converted from residence to rental, so I know it happens.

HERE is one of many articles on the subject.

(This kind of audit by the way was a factor in causing Dave Ramsey's house-of-cards empire of shaky real estate financing to collapse and cause his bankruptcy,which eventually led to his new career of preaching against all debt of any kind.)

Not only could it be interpreted as a breach of contract, it could also be interpreted as mortgage fraud if you convert it to a rental and don't notify the mortgage lender. This is a gotcha that has put some of the "no money down" investment gurus and their followers in the slammer when they misrepresented that they would be living in homes in order to get to keep lower rates or to assume an existing mortgage without qualifying when they actually had no intent to ever live in the home.

HERE is some more about the statute on mortgage fraud.
  • -------------------------------------------
    EXPCITE

    TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 47 - FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS

    HEAD
    Sec. 1014. Loan and credit applications generally; renewals and discounts; crop insurance

    STATUTE
    Whoever knowingly makes any false statement or report, or willfully overvalues any land, property or security, for the purpose of influencing in any way the action of...

    (...a long list of pretty much every kind of formal lending institution...)

    ...upon any application, advance, discount, purchase, purchase agreement, repurchase agreement, commitment, or loan, or any change or extension of any of the same, by renewal, deferment of action or otherwise, or the acceptance, release, or substitution of security therefor, shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
    -------------------------------
It sure looks to me like if you certify that you are going to live in it as a primary residence but change that circumstance (and don't let the mortgage company know about it) it falls under the parts about a false statement and/or about changing the agreement or committment. And it sure looks to me ike "Substitution of security" if you change it from a safe loan on a primary residence to a much more risky (for the lender) rental property.

I don't think a lender is likely to bring charges of mortgage fraud, but do think it's very likely that they're not going to let it slide if and when they have under-performing mortgages that are no longer residences; so the possibility of having to refinance it at rental property rates should be a consideration.

jimb
chimi
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by chimi »

Interesting....I wonder how many people who rent out their home:
A) do notify the lender
B) and of those, how often the lender will then require refi as a rental property as opposed to letting you keep the old mortgage.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by jimb_fromATL »

chimi wrote:Interesting....I wonder how many people who rent out their home:
A) do notify the lender
Lots of 'em, from my observations and knowledge. It may never occur to them. And it may never come up as long as they're on time all the time with their payments -- unless it's brought to the lender's attention by applying for a new mortgage on another home, or a refi. Or ... as has happened in the past... when lenders start reviewing their under=performing mortgages looking for ways to get their money back.

However, it looks like lenders are going to be required to start reviewing loans to catch 'em sooner now that according to that article in the link the OCC has now mandated it.
B) and of those, how often the lender will then require refi as a rental property as opposed to letting you keep the old mortgage.
It probably depends a lot on the rate on the mortgage. The clauses typically give the lender the right to choose. It's not a requirement to call it due.

If the loan as a primary residence is several years old, it may already be at a higher rate than the current rates on rental properties. Chances would seem pretty good that the lender would not choose to lose it.

Or if the home is upside down or not worth much more than its market value, and the borrower appears to be able to afford it, the lender may prefer to continue taking the risk rather than force the borrower to have to refi. The lender probably would prefer a lower rate mortgage that is being paid on time all the time than to have the borrower walk out, then have to foreclose on a home that may be worth less than they can get for it at auction. (Remember, once the borrower no longer lives there, they have less incentive to try to keep it if it's going to cost them more to refi or recast.)

Yet another problem that often comes up is in qualifying for a new mortgage while you already have a mortgage on your existing home, even if if you do get to keep the original mortgage. That mortgage payment, taxes and insurance all count in your debt to income ratio in qualifying for the new mortgage on the new home.

Few if any lenders will consider potential rental income in figuring your income and debt limits. They typically want to see proof of a year or two of actual rental income. At the very least, they'll want proof of a signed lease and tenant ... which you probably don't have if you're still iiving in it while you're trying to get financing for the next home.

Oh, and let's not forget that you need a down payment for the new home, plus an emergency fund big enough to make payments and pay taxes and insurance on both homes even when the future rental home is vacant.

jimb
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Go Blue 99
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

We closed yesterday on our 5/5 Penfed ARM re-fi at 2.875% and no closing costs. Including the PMI we were finally able to get rid of, our monthly payment is going down by $450 :beer
Thanks to all that helped- I never would have considered an ARM until I saw many people here recommending it. It's an ideal product for us as we are planning on moving to the suburbs in 5-7 years. Even our closing attorney said she has a Penfed 5/5 ARM.
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Watty
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Watty »

How did the process go for you?

There have been some threads where people were not completely happy with the process.
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Go Blue 99
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

Watty wrote:How did the process go for you?

There have been some threads where people were not completely happy with the process.
As many have reported, the re-fi process with them is very slow. Emails don't get answered for a couple of days. Attention to detail is lacking- for example, sending an email but forgetting to include the attachment, requests for docs that have already been submitted, etc.

But I would do it again in order to get that low rate + zero closing costs.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Novine »

We're in the same boat but in the 'burbs. But we plan on staying in our house. Did you have any problems hitting your target on the appraisal?
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Go Blue 99
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

Novine wrote:We're in the same boat but in the 'burbs. But we plan on staying in our house. Did you have any problems hitting your target on the appraisal?
The appraisal was definitely on the conservative side based on how hot our local market is. But it did match what our recent property tax appraisal shows, so I thought it was fair.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Novine »

How did that compare to Zillow? I've been curious as to how well that tracks actual appraisals.
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Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Go Blue 99 »

Novine wrote:How did that compare to Zillow? I've been curious as to how well that tracks actual appraisals.
County property tax appraisal: $344,000
PenFed Appraiser: $346,000
Zillow: $406,000

I think we would get $375-385k if we sold now.
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Should I try to re-fi my mortgage?

Post by Meg77 »

Novine wrote:How did that compare to Zillow? I've been curious as to how well that tracks actual appraisals.
This depends a lot on your area. In Texas where I live sales aren't public record so Zillow is notoriously off-base. But I've heard in some metros with lots of comps and mandatory sales price reporting that it can be a pretty good gauge.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
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