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Re: The slackening...
Ennui? She's only seven years old! If you were to predict my future based upon my interests at that age, I'd be a cowboy.letsgobobby wrote:This is personal because I see in my daughter a fair amount of ennui. I do not consider that we spoil her, and she is only seven, but her lack of focus and generally jaded nature at such a young age and in the face of many wonderful opportunities is a little scary.
The toughest part for me as a parent has been to recognize that my child is not me. He has his own interests and skills that frequently don't overlap with mine. The fact that I may have made certain mistakes--financial or otherwise--when I was young doesn't mean that I can or even should prevent him from making those same mistakes.
Concerns about, "Perhaps [the scion] had sown the seeds of his own ruination" are great for the melodrama of a novel, but they're a lousy way to live one's life in the real world, especially when talking about a seven-year-old child. Odds are that your daughter will do just fine, and you will have played a large part in her success. Change your focus from ennui and ruination to the joys of friendship, soccer practice, mastering the multiplication table and singing off-key.
Re: The slackening...
Ah, yes. When one's children disappoint you and do stupid things. When you are clearly better than your children. That's the real let-down, isn't it?
OK, a financial mistake: We taught our son about probability in 2nd grade. He got it. So when the school had a fundraiser where one buys tickets to distribute among many pots to win something like a laptop, iPad, day-at-spa, tax prep, teeth whitening, colonoscopy (OK the parents donate things), my son understood probability. He puts ALL of his tickets into one pot, the pot to win a PlayStation. One of his tickets was drawn, and he won the PlayStation that we would never ever buy for him and it has been downhill ever since.
OK, a financial mistake: We taught our son about probability in 2nd grade. He got it. So when the school had a fundraiser where one buys tickets to distribute among many pots to win something like a laptop, iPad, day-at-spa, tax prep, teeth whitening, colonoscopy (OK the parents donate things), my son understood probability. He puts ALL of his tickets into one pot, the pot to win a PlayStation. One of his tickets was drawn, and he won the PlayStation that we would never ever buy for him and it has been downhill ever since.
Last edited by livesoft on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The slackening...
There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations." Which probably sums up what you're talking about. Look at the families of the Robber Barons from the 1900's. How many of those heirs are nearly as successful as their ancestor. (Maybe they are successful but I just don't know about them. None are as famous anyhow.)
Re: The slackening...
Brilliant!! (Had he taken the same approach to the colonoscopy, I would have been concerned.)livesoft wrote:OK, a financial mistake: We taught our son about probability in 2nd grade. He got it. So when the school had a fundraiser where one buys tickets to distribute among many pots to win something like a laptop, iPad, day-at-spa, tax prep, teeth whitening, colonoscopy (OK the parents donate things), my son understood probability. He puts ALL of his tickets into one pot, the pot to win a PlayStation. One of his tickets was drawn, and he won the PlayStation that we would never ever buy for him and it has been downhill ever since.
My son grew up hearing his mother (an epidemiologist) and me (a psychologist) always talking about research and research design. When he was 10, a teacher asked him what he could learn from the parable of the Good Samaritan. He replied, "You can't generalize from a sample size of one!"
Re: The slackening...
Yes, the problem is often when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. The next thing would be a class in literature appreciation.Zabar wrote:My son grew up hearing his mother (an epidemiologist) and me (a psychologist) always talking about research and research design. When he was 10, a teacher asked him what he could learn from the parable of the Good Samaritan. He replied, "You can't generalize from a sample size of one!"
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Re: The slackening...
I have two offspring, average age around 30 now. One is a financial black sheep and I continue to get collection notices for her (including from the IRS!) at my house even though she's been living 1000 miles away for over five years now.
The other graduated from college in a timely manner, has had a succession of decent jobs and is doing OK money-wise.
I can't say there were significant differences in their upbringing as regards money. There's some kind of addictive personality disorder related to excessive spending that kicks on some people but not others. Best way I can explain it...
The other graduated from college in a timely manner, has had a succession of decent jobs and is doing OK money-wise.
I can't say there were significant differences in their upbringing as regards money. There's some kind of addictive personality disorder related to excessive spending that kicks on some people but not others. Best way I can explain it...
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Re: The slackening...
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Last edited by letsgobobby on Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The slackening...
Very interesting.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations."
I'm trying to decide what portion of our estate goes to our kids and what goes to charitable causes.
Perhaps there is some way to motivate our children to become successful on their own through some inheritance "matching" program.
Sounds very complicated....gotta think it through.
1210
Re: The slackening...
Not always, though. A friend of mine used to work at a law firm that represents the descendants of one of the rich families of the 19th century. Three or four generations after the fortune was initially made, the family is still living in a fabulous mansion with servants and a substantial investment portfolio. If I remember correctly, they're not TOO crazy with their spending (no private jet or multiple houses), which I take to be the ultra-wealthy version of living below your beans.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations." Which probably sums up what you're talking about. Look at the families of the Robber Barons from the 1900's. How many of those heirs are nearly as successful as their ancestor. (Maybe they are successful but I just don't know about them. None are as famous anyhow.)
Re: The slackening...
The point is whether they are doing as well as the first generation which made all the money. Or are they coasting and just spending grandpa's fortune down? One would expect the children to have attended the best schools and have all the right connections to do even better. But it's not always so. Being born into wealth might not always give you the same fire in the belly. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.FedGuy wrote:Not always, though. A friend of mine used to work at a law firm that represents the descendants of one of the rich families of the 19th century. Three or four generations after the fortune was initially made, the family is still living in a fabulous mansion with servants and a substantial investment portfolio. If I remember correctly, they're not TOO crazy with their spending (no private jet or multiple houses), which I take to be the ultra-wealthy version of living below your beans.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations." Which probably sums up what you're talking about. Look at the families of the Robber Barons from the 1900's. How many of those heirs are nearly as successful as their ancestor. (Maybe they are successful but I just don't know about them. None are as famous anyhow.)
Re: The slackening...
Thanks for the reference and recommendation. I'll look for it.letsgobobby wrote:Recently read a wonderful novel by Phillipp Meyer, "The Son", about the origins of a very wealthy Texas rancher/oilman, and his many descendants.
One of his heirs, who is an outsized business success in her own right, experiences pangs of disappointment in her own grown children. When they produce two grandchildren, she loves them to death yet simultaneously laments who they are, and who they represent that the family has become:
'She loved the boys... but in general both were possessed by a clumsiness, a wariness, as if the physical world were conspiring against them... she loved them anyway... But the slackening. By five she and her brothers were throwing loops. By ten she was at the branding fire. Her grandchildren were not good at anything and did not have much interest in anything either. She wondered if [the scion of the family] would even recognize them as his descendants, felt briefly defensive for them, but of course it was true.
...
Perhaps [the scion] had sown the seeds of his own ruination. He'd provided for all of them, and they'd become soft, they'd become people he never would have respected.
Of course you wanted your children to have it better than you had. But at what point was it not better at all? People needed something to worry about or they would destroy themselves, and she thought of her grandchildren and all the grandchildren yet to come.'
For those who have pondered this troubling subject, and raised your own children and/or grandchildren, please tell me about financial mistakes you made and what you would have done differently. (Feel free to tell me about your successes, too, but I figured there would be many of those here and we all know what we should do, so I thought it could more helpful to hear about specific things not to do.) Platitudes such as Warren Buffett's, "I plan to give my grandchildren enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing" are not all that helpful to me, despite their quotability.
[This is personal because I see in my daughter a fair amount of ennui. I do not consider that we spoil her, and she is only seven, but her lack of focus and generally jaded nature at such a young age and in the face of many wonderful opportunities is a little scary.]
You might also enjoy (if you haven't already) Booth Tarkington's Magnificent Ambersons (the book, not so much the famous-but-disappointing Orson Welles film) which is on a similar theme and a great read. Also, several of Andrew Carnegie's short essays collected in The Gospel of Wealth, including "The Advantages of Poverty", are nice considerations of the effect of "excessive" wealth on one's offspring can be.
The movie The Ultimate Gift is also worthwhile IMHO, although more from an inheritance perspective.
[I happen to be swimming in this pool at the moment as I am currently teaching a series of noncredit adult liberal education courses entitled "The Arts of Affluence" that combine fiction and non-fiction readings as well as films. First course: "Wealth and the American Dream". Second course: "(Passive) Investing on Wall Street". Third course: "Families and Inheritance (Planning)". We are also using the Hughes book, Family Wealth, mentioned in this thread as well as several other Boglehead-worthy books. It's a fascinating and important area IMHO. Especially for Bogleheads.]
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Re: The slackening...
To the extent you believe in luck, you should expect reversion to the mean. That first generation was often the right person at the right time. High achievers often work hard and have talent, but there are others with just as much talent and who work harder, but that are not in a position to achieve.DTSC wrote:The point is whether they are doing as well as the first generation which made all the money. Or are they coasting and just spending grandpa's fortune down? One would expect the children to have attended the best schools and have all the right connections to do even better. But it's not always so. Being born into wealth might not always give you the same fire in the belly. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.FedGuy wrote:Not always, though. A friend of mine used to work at a law firm that represents the descendants of one of the rich families of the 19th century. Three or four generations after the fortune was initially made, the family is still living in a fabulous mansion with servants and a substantial investment portfolio. If I remember correctly, they're not TOO crazy with their spending (no private jet or multiple houses), which I take to be the ultra-wealthy version of living below your beans.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations." Which probably sums up what you're talking about. Look at the families of the Robber Barons from the 1900's. How many of those heirs are nearly as successful as their ancestor. (Maybe they are successful but I just don't know about them. None are as famous anyhow.)
I know at least one wealthy family that disowned their artist son because he did not have the fire in the belly, yet it seems like rejecting their value system and depriving himself for his artistic passion required at least as much gumption as the financial course they were hoping he would take.
I would instead ask whether the offspring got the best training you could afford, the best environment you could create, and the best support you could provide, and then see what the life dice give them to work with.
Re: The slackening...
My father was somewhat more successful in terms of his career than I was. He certainly had a lot more ambition than I did. When he retired he was director of a large scientific organization. He had a Presidential level award on his CV. I merely made it to senior scientist level.DTSC wrote:Being born into wealth might not always give you the same fire in the belly. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.
By most standards we were both successful. He was just somewhat more so because of that 'fire in the belly'.
But our life experiences were very different. He was a child of the Great Depression. He told me stories of having to sleep on an unheated porch in a house shared by several families. His mother and father died when he was a teenager and he had to raise his younger brother.
My youth was like something out of a 1950s TV sitcom. Father Knows Best or something like that.
Are you going to subject your child to the sort of privations my father endured to make him more ambitious? I don't think so. It isn't necessary. You can have a perfectly good life without achieving fame or great wealth. In fact I think such a life is more likely to be happy and balanced than the one where you are driven by the sorts of insecurities my father was.
Re: The slackening...
Yes, my DH has two adult children, both educated. One is very responsible,while the other is a shopaholic and "secret" gambler (gambling manifested itself in her early 40's). He has changed his will so that the "princess" will receive her half of the inheritance as the beneficiary of a spendthrift trust, where she can access the income but not the principal. As for the addictive personality disorder, it manifested itself as shopping and alcoholism in her mother, and as severe gambling addiction in her uncle. Very sad. Sometimes no matter what you do, you can't save them from themselves.The Wizard wrote: I can't say there were significant differences in their upbringing as regards money. There's some kind of addictive personality disorder related to excessive spending that kicks on some people but not others. Best way I can explain it...
Re: The slackening...
Not that I'm hugely successful, but I do worry about my children having too much. While I don't want my kids to have ti wiggle the coat hanger antenna on the 13 inch B&W TV every 5 minutes like I did growing up, I want them to be able to persevere and withstand some hardship (or inconvenience) too. Would they be able to do so if the smallest TV they ever knew is a 46 inch flat screen?Ged wrote: snip
Are you going to subject your child to the sort of privations my father endured to make him more ambitious? I don't think so. It isn't necessary. You can have a perfectly good life without achieving fame or great wealth. In fact I think such a life is more likely to be happy and balanced than the one where you are driven by the sorts of insecurities my father was.
Re: The slackening...
They still need to learn how to use a paperclip to reset the cable modem when the internet goes out.DTSC wrote:While I don't want my kids to have ti wiggle the coat hanger antenna on the 13 inch B&W TV every 5 minutes like I did growing up, I want them to be able to persevere and withstand some hardship (or inconvenience) too.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
Re: The slackening...
I have noticed a trend that some people have no perspective on hardship. Such as:DTSC wrote: Not that I'm hugely successful, but I do worry about my children having too much. While I don't want my kids to have ti wiggle the coat hanger antenna on the 13 inch B&W TV every 5 minutes like I did growing up, I want them to be able to persevere and withstand some hardship (or inconvenience) too. Would they be able to do so if the smallest TV they ever knew is a 46 inch flat screen?
Re: The slackening...
It's regression to the mean.
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Re: The slackening...
I've noticed in particular the children of very rich or famous to tend to have "problems" or at least underwhelming achievements. I'm thinking of musicians now but it could be any line of work.
I wonder if the intense focus of the parent on things other than family (business, art, politics) doesn't seem like neglect to the child, invoking some kind of cry for help. It would be understandable but a loss to the rest of us if some people didn't strive for excellence even if to the detriment of their families.
I wonder if the intense focus of the parent on things other than family (business, art, politics) doesn't seem like neglect to the child, invoking some kind of cry for help. It would be understandable but a loss to the rest of us if some people didn't strive for excellence even if to the detriment of their families.
Re: The slackening...
The phrase I've heard was "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations."
We know about how a steady WD depletes a portfolio over a 30 year period. Triple that time, and think about how fragile the WD rate is, especially if managed by a bank trust department.
We know about how a steady WD depletes a portfolio over a 30 year period. Triple that time, and think about how fragile the WD rate is, especially if managed by a bank trust department.
Re: The slackening...
I agree 100% with this statement. I've seen it in my family.The Wizard wrote:I can't say there were significant differences in their upbringing as regards money. There's some kind of addictive personality disorder related to excessive spending that kicks on some people but not others. Best way I can explain it...
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- HardKnocker
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Re: The slackening...
But I bet her grandkids are awesome at Xbox.
And really, throwing a lariat is not a skill much in demand nowadays.
Anyway, I recommend disinheriting the whole bunch.
And really, throwing a lariat is not a skill much in demand nowadays.
Anyway, I recommend disinheriting the whole bunch.
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
- Jazztonight
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Re: The slackening...
Very interesting thread.
No one has yet mentioned "The Millionaire Next Door," which provides a slightly different take on this issue. A parent rises from immigrant or blue collar poverty to enormous but generally "hidden" wealth. This person's greatest goal is that (his) children become educated professionals (doctor, hopefully). But the fire in the belly for the children is just not there, and very likely the children or grandchildren often lose motivation and drive along the way. That's my take-away, anyway.
It's not uncommon, as someone mentioned, for the children of the wealthy to go into the arts. I see nothing wrong with this, but it's a hell of a lot easier to make a comfortable living elsewhere.
The irony is that one of our family members, who is the child of a doctor and lawyer, is a very successful (and wealthy) artist; I'm watching this person's children to see how this next generation will turn out. I see some potential issues already.
No one has yet mentioned "The Millionaire Next Door," which provides a slightly different take on this issue. A parent rises from immigrant or blue collar poverty to enormous but generally "hidden" wealth. This person's greatest goal is that (his) children become educated professionals (doctor, hopefully). But the fire in the belly for the children is just not there, and very likely the children or grandchildren often lose motivation and drive along the way. That's my take-away, anyway.
It's not uncommon, as someone mentioned, for the children of the wealthy to go into the arts. I see nothing wrong with this, but it's a hell of a lot easier to make a comfortable living elsewhere.
The irony is that one of our family members, who is the child of a doctor and lawyer, is a very successful (and wealthy) artist; I'm watching this person's children to see how this next generation will turn out. I see some potential issues already.
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche
Re: The slackening...
I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that worrying, stress, suffering, trauma, or any other similar hardship has any beneficial effect on human beings.
Quite the contrary.
There's no reason to believe that any disappointing offspring of a wealthy person would have turned out better if they weren't rich. They very well could have turned out much worse.
Quite the contrary.
There's no reason to believe that any disappointing offspring of a wealthy person would have turned out better if they weren't rich. They very well could have turned out much worse.
- Jazztonight
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Re: The slackening...
Thank you for mentioning "spendthrift trust." We have friends whose only child is not able to hold a regular job and is now living in what amounts to a commune. Anytime they give her a gift, particularly cash, she shares it with the group. She's "lost" her car, good clothing, family jewelry, and so on. Our friends are concerned about leaving her an inheritance. I've forwarded a link describing the spendthrift trust to them.Gnirk wrote:Yes, my DH has two adult children, both educated. One is very responsible,while the other is a shopaholic and "secret" gambler (gambling manifested itself in her early 40's). He has changed his will so that the "princess" will receive her half of the inheritance as the beneficiary of a spendthrift trust, where she can access the income but not the principal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spendthrift_trust
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche
Re: The slackening...
How are the generations counted? Let's say, a two-generation family immigrates to the U.S.; we'll call them G1 and G2. G2 members have children and grandchildren in the U.S., G3 and G4, respectively. Members of G3 are the 2nd generation with respect to G2, but the 3rd generation with respect to G1. Similarly, members of G4 are the 3rd generation with respect to G2, but the 4th generation with respect to G1. And so the question is in which generation (G3? G4?) slacking typically starts?Jazztonight wrote:A parent rises from immigrant or blue collar poverty to enormous but generally "hidden" wealth. This person's greatest goal is that (his) children become educated professionals (doctor, hopefully). But the fire in the belly for the children is just not there, and very likely the children or grandchildren often lose motivation and drive along the way. That's my take-away, anyway.
My personal experience was that immigrant children do well in schools that have many other immigrant children, especially from Asia (China, Korea, India, etc.). The peer pressure complements the parental pressure and raises the performance of all students.
Victoria
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Re: The slackening...
These days, substitute "doctor" with "investment banker". Something like 40-50% of Stanford's graduating class is going into finance.Jazztonight wrote:Very interesting thread.
No one has yet mentioned "The Millionaire Next Door," which provides a slightly different take on this issue. A parent rises from immigrant or blue collar poverty to enormous but generally "hidden" wealth. This person's greatest goal is that (his) children become educated professionals (doctor, hopefully). But the fire in the belly for the children is just not there, and very likely the children or grandchildren often lose motivation and drive along the way. That's my take-away, anyway.
It's not uncommon, as someone mentioned, for the children of the wealthy to go into the arts. I see nothing wrong with this, but it's a hell of a lot easier to make a comfortable living elsewhere.
The irony is that one of our family members, who is the child of a doctor and lawyer, is a very successful (and wealthy) artist; I'm watching this person's children to see how this next generation will turn out. I see some potential issues already.
Re: The slackening...
I think the research shows that the out-performance normalizes to that of the mainstream population after 3 generations.VictoriaF wrote:
snip
My personal experience was that immigrant children do well in schools that have many other immigrant children, especially from Asia (China, Korea, India, etc.). The peer pressure complements the parental pressure and raises the performance of all students.
Victoria
Re: The slackening...
Got to build character any way you can... My kids have always had the junkiest cars in the high school parking lot, and they've all had to work part-time jobs at Target or Sonic to make spending money.
Still, we coddle them too much...
And I'm not sure that parenting matters that much... My kids are wired very differently, even growing up in the same environment. My oldest kid is very thrifty... My middle kid wastes money constantly - luckily, she'll probably make a decent salary when she graduates in a month from nursing school ... my youngest kid... seems thrifty, but time will tell...
I think it's very good to be mostly broke in your teens and early 20s... I think it gives you a good perspective and some empathy, and lets you enjoy your accomplishments more as you age.
"mostly broke", of course, is a relative term... I mean you live in a tiny apartment with a roommate or two, and you can't afford to go out every weekend, so you look for free stuff to do. You still have food and a roof over your head, and you have the security of knowing Mom and Dad will take care of you, worst case... so that's better than many people...
Still, we coddle them too much...
And I'm not sure that parenting matters that much... My kids are wired very differently, even growing up in the same environment. My oldest kid is very thrifty... My middle kid wastes money constantly - luckily, she'll probably make a decent salary when she graduates in a month from nursing school ... my youngest kid... seems thrifty, but time will tell...
I think it's very good to be mostly broke in your teens and early 20s... I think it gives you a good perspective and some empathy, and lets you enjoy your accomplishments more as you age.
"mostly broke", of course, is a relative term... I mean you live in a tiny apartment with a roommate or two, and you can't afford to go out every weekend, so you look for free stuff to do. You still have food and a roof over your head, and you have the security of knowing Mom and Dad will take care of you, worst case... so that's better than many people...
- SC Hoosier
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Re: The slackening...
The above statement is just incorrect and wrong. It is only through trials that we truly learn.sls239 wrote:I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that worrying, stress, suffering, trauma, or any other similar hardship has any beneficial effect on human beings.
Quite the contrary.
There's no reason to believe that any disappointing offspring of a wealthy person would have turned out better if they weren't rich. They very well could have turned out much worse.
When young parents are concerned about building wealth, they often (though not always) do not prioritize parenting very highly. Thus, they do a poor job training their children to be adults of character. This can be true of parents of any socioeconomic status. Welfare families have Xbox too. It keeps the kids out of your hair until they're suspended from school.
I believe that my kids should struggle some. It strengthens them for life as an adult. If they want to save for the $50 item, then they can't keep buying the $10 items. Look at the 'Greatest Generation." I have also seen the infinite benefits of children working. Work builds self esteem, improves attitude, teaches them how to choose to be positive, efficient, effective............. I am a professional houseparent and I meet kids all the time that are afraid of work, because they've never done it before. The way we conquer fear of work is to...WORK! I'm not talking about sweat shops. I'm talking about picking up pinecones in the yard, mowing, raking leaves, washing dishes, folding laundry, vacuuming, and any chores around the house that will help out. They can pitch in just like they've done for centuries. My kids do this and they smile when I tell them that they did a good job and I thank them. That is what families do. It's not new.
Kids make their own choices, granted. However, there is no one that has more impact on who your children become than you do.
I live in No Payment Land. It is wonderful, and I'd love for you to live here too.
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Re: The slackening...
I'll not mention the book you cite but will quote from one of John Adams's letters to his wife Abigail:Jazztonight wrote:Very interesting thread.
No one has yet mentioned "The Millionaire Next Door," which provides a slightly different take on this issue. A parent rises from immigrant or blue collar poverty to enormous but generally "hidden" wealth. This person's greatest goal is that (his) children become educated professionals (doctor, hopefully). But the fire in the belly for the children is just not there, and very likely the children or grandchildren often lose motivation and drive along the way. That's my take-away, anyway.
It's not uncommon, as someone mentioned, for the children of the wealthy to go into the arts. I see nothing wrong with this, but it's a hell of a lot easier to make a comfortable living elsewhere.
The irony is that one of our family members, who is the child of a doctor and lawyer, is a very successful (and wealthy) artist; I'm watching this person's children to see how this next generation will turn out. I see some potential issues already.
The science of government it is my duty to study, more than all other sciences - the arts of legislation and administration and negotiation ought to take the place of, indeed exclude, in a manner, all other arts. I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/96102-t ... y-to-study
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Re: The slackening...
Education matters for the younger generation. And I don't just mean basic college, but graduate school to the extent of obtaining a PhD or Professional degree.
While one cannot "fake" the smarts needed to obtain these higher degrees, there can be a 4-8 year time period beyond one's bachelor degree with little or zero net income. So it can be helpful if the Family Wealth can be called upon to provide Additional Living Funds during this time of extended education. It can make a big difference vs living in poverty to get your higher degree...
While one cannot "fake" the smarts needed to obtain these higher degrees, there can be a 4-8 year time period beyond one's bachelor degree with little or zero net income. So it can be helpful if the Family Wealth can be called upon to provide Additional Living Funds during this time of extended education. It can make a big difference vs living in poverty to get your higher degree...
Attempted new signature...
Re: The slackening...
It seems there's one thing pretty much consistent throughout history: older generations complaining about younger generations.
Not sure who is doing to the slackening.
Now get off my lawn!!
Not sure who is doing to the slackening.
Now get off my lawn!!
Re: The slackening...
*Some* struggle is good. A lot isn't. Also, there has to be opportunity. There are millions of children struggling to survive in Africa and other parts of the world. I don't think most (almost all) of them will end up thriving.SC Hoosier wrote:The above statement is just incorrect and wrong. It is only through trials that we truly learn.sls239 wrote:I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that worrying, stress, suffering, trauma, or any other similar hardship has any beneficial effect on human beings.
Quite the contrary.
There's no reason to believe that any disappointing offspring of a wealthy person would have turned out better if they weren't rich. They very well could have turned out much worse.
When young parents are concerned about building wealth, they often (though not always) do not prioritize parenting very highly. Thus, they do a poor job training their children to be adults of character. This can be true of parents of any socioeconomic status. Welfare families have Xbox too. It keeps the kids out of your hair until they're suspended from school.
I believe that my kids should struggle some. It strengthens them for life as an adult. If they want to save for the $50 item, then they can't keep buying the $10 items. Look at the 'Greatest Generation." I have also seen the infinite benefits of children working. Work builds self esteem, improves attitude, teaches them how to choose to be positive, efficient, effective............. I am a professional houseparent and I meet kids all the time that are afraid of work, because they've never done it before. The way we conquer fear of work is to...WORK! I'm not talking about sweat shops. I'm talking about picking up pinecones in the yard, mowing, raking leaves, washing dishes, folding laundry, vacuuming, and any chores around the house that will help out. They can pitch in just like they've done for centuries. My kids do this and they smile when I tell them that they did a good job and I thank them. That is what families do. It's not new.
Kids make their own choices, granted. However, there is no one that has more impact on who your children become than you do.
Re: The slackening...
A lot of truth in that.Dutch wrote:It seems there's one thing pretty much consistent throughout history: older generations complaining about younger generations.
Not sure who is doing to the slackening.
Now get off my lawn!!
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Re: The slackening...
Indeed.Rodc wrote:A lot of truth in that.Dutch wrote:It seems there's one thing pretty much consistent throughout history: older generations complaining about younger generations.
Not sure who is doing to the slackening.
Now get off my lawn!!
Case in point - the handheld electronic games my nephews play really annoy my Mom and Dad (however, my sister calls them "built-in-babysitters").
I told my folks, "look, the boys are minding their own business, being seen and not heard" (a term they used to use on us). Needless to say, Mom and Dad weren't amused.
"The broker said the stock was 'poised to move.' Silly me, I thought he meant up." ― Randy Thurman
- bertilak
- Posts: 10725
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:23 pm
- Location: East of the Pecos, West of the Mississippi
Re: The slackening...
I have thought about this myself. One idea I have heard is to set up trusts for the "kids" that don't pay off until about age 60 or so. This means they cannot live off of an inheritance but must still find their own way in the world. The inheritance becomes a safety factor. Still thinking on this. There may be no way to do the absolutely right thing.1210sda wrote:Very interesting.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations."
I'm trying to decide what portion of our estate goes to our kids and what goes to charitable causes.
Perhaps there is some way to motivate our children to become successful on their own through some inheritance "matching" program.
Sounds very complicated....gotta think it through.
1210
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
Re: The slackening...
What's interesting to me about this is how everyone puts it on the descendents. But, the successful self-made entrepreneur is really the "odd one out" relative to normal human behaviors. There are studies about this including things like losing a parent being a trigger for entrepreneurship, there are likely also genetic propensities at work but they are probably recessive not dominant (for most of our ancestors, most of the time, it didn't pay to be the striver/pioneer). So it should come as no surprise that this uncommon risk-seeking behavior would not as a rule be found in one's descendents.letsgobobby wrote:Recently read a wonderful novel by Phillipp Meyer, "The Son", about the origins of a very wealthy Texas rancher/oilman, and his many descendants....
- Mister Whale
- Posts: 495
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:39 am
Re: The slackening...
What I really want is for my offspring to be truly happy; to be in touch with who he is and what is important to him, and to be realistic about and at peace with his place in the world. Anything else will be icing on the cake. I suspect that he will receive a sizeable inheritance someday; hopefully he'll be wise enough to know how to utilize it carefully. My opinion of him as a human being will have little to do with the size of his bank account. Personally I see great wealth as an impediment to true spiritual growth.
" ... advice is most useful and at its best, not when it is telling you what to do, but when it is illuminating aspects of the situation you hadn't thought about." --nisiprius
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- Posts: 1177
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 10:21 pm
Re: The slackening...
Be mindful of survivorship bias.SC Hoosier wrote:Look at the 'Greatest Generation.'
Re: The slackening...
Think of what Isaac Newton's generation could have done with the "Greatest Generation's" press agentJuanZ wrote:Be mindful of survivorship bias.SC Hoosier wrote:Look at the 'Greatest Generation.'
- HardKnocker
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:55 am
- Location: New Jersey USA
Re: The slackening...
How true. There were lots of losers in the Greatest Generation.JuanZ wrote:Be mindful of survivorship bias.SC Hoosier wrote:Look at the 'Greatest Generation.'
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
Re: The slackening...
Took a lesson in probability to decide to go all in for the PlayStation.livesoft wrote:Ah, yes. When one's children disappoint you and do stupid things. When you are clearly better than your children. That's the real let-down, isn't it?
OK, a financial mistake: We taught our son about probability in 2nd grade. He got it. So when the school had a fundraiser where one buys tickets to distribute among many pots to win something like a laptop, iPad, day-at-spa, tax prep, teeth whitening, colonoscopy (OK the parents donate things), my son understood probability. He puts ALL of his tickets into one pot, the pot to win a PlayStation. One of his tickets was drawn, and he won the PlayStation that we would never ever buy for him and it has been downhill ever since.
I would be more surprised if a kid took any other decision !
Did you think without a lesson in probability, they would go for the colonoscopy ?
- HardKnocker
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:55 am
- Location: New Jersey USA
Re: The slackening...
I make plenty dumb mistakes growing up. Do dumb things.
No have Xbox then or computers. Read plenty comic books. Play with toys. Daydream. Watch cartoons and 3 Stooges. Waste time play sports in sandlot.
Me not big smart but not make same mistakes twice. Learn from mistakes. Not make fatal mistakes.
Still here. Do good. Now goof off plenty.
No have Xbox then or computers. Read plenty comic books. Play with toys. Daydream. Watch cartoons and 3 Stooges. Waste time play sports in sandlot.
Me not big smart but not make same mistakes twice. Learn from mistakes. Not make fatal mistakes.
Still here. Do good. Now goof off plenty.
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
Re: The slackening...
One "preliminary" thought I have is to for divide our estate in two (two kids). From each of the two portions, match what each kid has accumulated and give the balance to charity. Don't know whether it would be a one for one match or some other method.bertilak wrote:I have thought about this myself. One idea I have heard is to set up trusts for the "kids" that don't pay off until about age 60 or so. This means they cannot live off of an inheritance but must still find their own way in the world. The inheritance becomes a safety factor. Still thinking on this. There may be no way to do the absolutely right thing.1210sda wrote:Very interesting.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations."
I'm trying to decide what portion of our estate goes to our kids and what goes to charitable causes.
Perhaps there is some way to motivate our children to become successful on their own through some inheritance "matching" program.
Sounds very complicated....gotta think it through.
1210
In this fashion, we would be rewarding each kid for their accumulations at the time of our death. As I said before, gotta think it through.
1210
Re: The slackening...
Two things.
1) Scion means descendant, not ancestor. I remember having to look this word up 15 years ago because one of my favorite authors used the word in one of his titles.
2) I have the reverse feeling of this. I look at what my parents and grandparents have accomplished (wow, thank you) and wonder if I will ever be able to match their accomplishments.
Thank you for sharing this
1) Scion means descendant, not ancestor. I remember having to look this word up 15 years ago because one of my favorite authors used the word in one of his titles.
2) I have the reverse feeling of this. I look at what my parents and grandparents have accomplished (wow, thank you) and wonder if I will ever be able to match their accomplishments.
Thank you for sharing this
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- Posts: 3611
- Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:02 pm
Re: The slackening...
One of Heinlein's characters in "...the number of the beast" has a challenge in which he has to match his share of an inheritance in order to get anything.1210sda wrote:Very interesting.DTSC wrote:There is a Chinese saying which goes something like: "Wealth doesn't get past 3 generations."
I'm trying to decide what portion of our estate goes to our kids and what goes to charitable causes.
Perhaps there is some way to motivate our children to become successful on their own through some inheritance "matching" program.
Sounds very complicated....gotta think it through.
1210
I'm not sure that is ideal, but I think some sort of matching program is better than just leaving them money outright.
I don't have any children but I do have a couple of siblings who seem to be waiting for their inheritances rather than doing much for themselves...
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
- market timer
- Posts: 6535
- Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:42 am
Re: The slackening...
I like the idea of motivating greater success. But how would you verify what your children have accumulated? And when would you notify your children (credibly) that this is your intent?1210sda wrote:One "preliminary" thought I have is to for divide our estate in two (two kids). From each of the two portions, match what each kid has accumulated and give the balance to charity. Don't know whether it would be a one for one match or some other method.
In this fashion, we would be rewarding each kid for their accumulations at the time of our death. As I said before, gotta think it through.
1210
An interesting way of implementing this sort of plan is to pay your children's income taxes--perhaps just on earned income--out of an inherited trust. This solves the verification problem in a way not that easily gamed. Plus, it does so in a way that doesn't encourage excessive risk-taking, as matching wealth would do. I like the idea of keeping the trusts separate, not zero sum, else one sibling might want to sabotage the other's career, or at least resent the other's success.
- 3CT_Paddler
- Posts: 3485
- Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:28 pm
- Location: Marietta, GA
Re: The slackening...
I remember watching a documentary on the super rich (PBS?) a couple years ago and was struck by how aimless so many of their lives are. I think its a disservice to a young adult to tell them that they will never have to worry about money.
Edit: The documentary was called Born Rich, and I would highly recommend it.
Edit: The documentary was called Born Rich, and I would highly recommend it.