your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

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What is lowest exspense ratio in your workplace retirement plan ?

I'm answering the poll
28
19%
No plan available
0
No votes
No exspense ratio
1
1%
.05% or less
70
47%
06-.10%
16
11%
.11-..19%
10
7%
20-.50%
7
5%
.51-.75%
6
4%
.76-1.00%
5
3%
1.01 or higher
5
3%
 
Total votes: 148

Topic Author
Johm221122
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your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Johm221122 »

What is lowest exspense ratio in your workplace retirement plan ?
Don't include stable value, money funds or company stock
Last edited by Johm221122 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Khanmots
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Khanmots »

Since there's such a disparity in how fees are charged, how do you want people to include fees?

Ignore them?
Somehow convert any and all fees to equivilent annual percentages and add to ER?
Something else?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by BrandonBogle »

MegaCorp offers a number of low cost index funds, no 12b-1 fees, all administration fees paid by the plan, and even no fees should we decide to take a loan or other administrative type fees.

SSgA S&P 500 Index, 0.02% ER
SSgA U.S. Bond Index, 0.05% ER
SSgA S&P Mid Cap Index, 0.05% ER
SSgA Russell 2000 Small Cap Index, 0.05% ER
SSgA International Index, 0.09% ER
SSgA NASDAQ 100 Index, 0.07% ER


* edit to add: Woohoo, 1k posts! :sharebeer
Topic Author
Johm221122
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Johm221122 »

Total annual charge percentage charged but not a added specific amount charged (per fund charged like $25 )

John
Khanmots
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Khanmots »

Different MegaCorp than BrandonBogle...

We have a 0.055% admin wrap. After that our index funds run (roughly) an additional...
S&P 500 Index +0.01%
Short Term Gov Bond Index +0.05%
Total Bond Index +0.03%
TIPS Index +0.04%
Small/Mid-cap Index +0.02%
MSCI EAFE Index +0.04%
EM Index +0.11%

Decent stable value as well.

I'm quite blessed with my 401k and should probably send my megacorp HR folks a letter letting them know it's much appreciated... can't hurt :)
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climber2020
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by climber2020 »

The lowest ER, fees included, is Vanguard Total Stock at 1.30%. It's unfortunate.
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whaleknives
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by whaleknives »

You must mean "0.05% or less". :)
"I'm an indexer. I own the market. And I'm happy." (John Bogle, "BusinessWeek", 8/17/07) ☕ Maritime signal flag W - Whiskey: "I require medical assistance."
Topic Author
Johm221122
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Johm221122 »

whaleknives wrote:You must mean "0.05% or less". :)
Thanks
cathyr
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by cathyr »

I work for a tiny software company, and our 401K is through American Funds. Lowest cost fund is 1.37 % - yuck!
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carorun
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by carorun »

It would be interesting to correlate the fund ratios with the size of the company. In my work experience and on the boards, it seems like smaller companies have worse 401ks. Possibly due to economies of scale, but probably due to the influence of financial advisers on smaller companies.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I included ER, 12-1b, management fee. 1.21%

Private company....maybe 200 employees
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
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hoppy08520
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by hoppy08520 »

vachica wrote:It would be interesting to correlate the fund ratios with the size of the company. In my work experience and on the boards, it seems like smaller companies have worse 401ks. Possibly due to economies of scale, but probably due to the influence of financial advisers on smaller companies.
There definitely is a correlation between company size (and plan assets) and quality of the plan. See this post for more on that including a link to a detailed study that shows the numbers.

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 10&t=97448

As an aside, I'm amazed at how many people in this poll have such good plans. I have Fidelity Spartan index funds. The TSM fund is 0.10% plus a 0.25% AUM for 0.35% all-in. This is at a ~300 employee company.
jasc15
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by jasc15 »

Previous megacorp plan has a .01% S&P 500 fund

(0.03%) Government/Credit Bond Fund (Barclays Capital U.S. Government/Credit Bond Index)
(0.01%) Equity Fund (S&P 500)
(0.03%) International Equity Fund (MSCI EAFE Index)
(0.10%) Emerging Markets Equity Fund (MSCI Emerging Markets® Index)

Our new smaller megacorp uses Fidelity in which I invest in 4 vanguard funds:

(0.14%) VEMSX- Vanguard Extended Market Idx Signal
(0.04%) VINIX- Vanguard Institutional Index I
(0.10%) VBTSX- Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Signal
(0.16%) VTSGX- Vanguard Total Intl Stock Index Signal
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BigOil
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by BigOil »

Another SP&P 500 MegaCorp...
Fee $8.50 per quarter for Employee share of recordkeeping and plan Admin (flat as account balance is irrelevant for this)
Plus fund expenses.
Lowest fee is
Vanguard Inst Index Fund Inst Plus 0.02%
MichDad
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by MichDad »

Here's a link to expense ratio information for the Thrift Savings Plan offered to federal employees and members of the military.

https://www.tsp.gov/investmentfunds/fun ... atio.shtml

In 2012, the TSP expense ratio was 0.027%. 2003 was a "bad" year, with an expense ratio of 0.102%.

MichDad
feh
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by feh »

My S&P 500 fund is .05%
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vectorizer
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by vectorizer »

Thanks for prompting me to actually look in my plan. Lowest I found is a version of Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund with an expense ratio of 0.02%. Vanguard might have to start to use a third digit after the decimal point if they continue to reduce costs. :D
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g$$
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by g$$ »

Technically I can buy company stock without paying an expense ratio. Excluding that, we have an S&P500 index with a 0.02% ER so I answered "0.05% or less"

-g$
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englishgirl
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by englishgirl »

I don't think the lowest priced fund should be a measure of plan quality. As far as I can tell, there are a number of plans out there where there is a grudging inclusion of a low cost S&P 500 index fund. But if the next best option is expensive, it is still hard to build a good portfolio.

We have the Vanguard 500 index fund at 0.05%. But we also have to shoulder some administrative fees. When I joined the company, that was the only Vanguard fund, and the next cheapest option was PIMCO total return at 0.43%. Now, we have 3 Vanguard funds, and thankfully one of them is Balanced Index at 0.1%, so that's where all my money is.

Most of the funds are over 1%. Unfortunately, our "lifestyle" options (we have aggressive, moderate, and conservative) that many uneducated investors end up going for are a crappy mixture of the expensive funds in the plan. So they are paying a lot for not a great mix.
Sarah
aorin
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by aorin »

Another MegaCorp

S&P 500 fund is 0.034%

Charged a $3.59 record keeping fee per month.
I am also charged with a quarterly "Online Advice Fee" of 1.87, which is a lot cheaper than the fees if I let them manage my portfolio.
Jeff7
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Re: your lowest expense ratio fund in 401

Post by Jeff7 »

Small business, ~50 people.
Company has about $2M invested in the plan, and 100% participation.

Lowest: The Bond Fund of America, R3 class. 0.92% ER.
There's also a small fee (less than 0.03%) that simply shows up as "Plan fees" on the quarterly statements.


englishgirl wrote:I don't think the lowest priced fund should be a measure of plan quality. As far as I can tell, there are a number of plans out there where there is a grudging inclusion of a low cost S&P 500 index fund. But if the next best option is expensive, it is still hard to build a good portfolio.
...
Or rather, "A low lowest-priced fund is not necessarily indicative of plan quality."

And I suppose that even a lowest-priced fund that's around 1% isn't always a good indicator either. I think I've seen one here where someone said they'd receive a 50% match on up to 15% of annual salary.
rr2
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by rr2 »

CREF Stock -- at 0.49% just a shade under 0.5%.
dickenjb
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by dickenjb »

Fidelity Spartan S&P500 at 2 bps
Fido extended mkt at 7 bps

The above two allow you to synthesize TSM at 3 bps

Vanguard TBM at 7 bps

Currently have 401(k) 100% in TBM because I save 3 bps over Vanguard there vs only 2 bps on TSM

Does 1 bp of savings matter? Well maybe not but it makes me feel better.

Have total portfolio costs down to 8 bps
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happymob
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by happymob »

climber2020 wrote:The lowest ER, fees included, is Vanguard Total Stock at 1.30%. It's unfortunate.
Ouch. We get Vanguard Total Stock at 0.22% (0.05% + 0.17% added to all funds). That is our low.
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hoppy08520
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by hoppy08520 »

dickenjb wrote:Fidelity Spartan S&P500 at 2 bps
Fido extended mkt at 7 bps

The above two allow you to synthesize TSM at 3 bps

Vanguard TBM at 7 bps

Currently have 401(k) 100% in TBM because I save 3 bps over Vanguard there vs only 2 bps on TSM

Does 1 bp of savings matter? Well maybe not but it makes me feel better.
Awesome! You'll be able to retire one day earlier now. ;-)

Seriously though, I am jealous. Looking at the poll results, 73% of people (including you) have a fund with that is below 0.2%.

I'm not quite there, but there is progress at my company. Around two years ago, my best fund was a TSM fund at 0.93% ER. Then a year or two ago, we got a new plan where the TSM fund dropped to 0.56%. And then last year my company merged with another and we got an even better plan at 0.35% and we even got an extra bit of employer matching, from 3% up to 3.5%.

One other comment:
englishgirl wrote:I don't think the lowest priced fund should be a measure of plan quality. As far as I can tell, there are a number of plans out there where there is a grudging inclusion of a low cost S&P 500 index fund. But if the next best option is expensive, it is still hard to build a good portfolio.

We have the Vanguard 500 index fund at 0.05%. But we also have to shoulder some administrative fees. When I joined the company, that was the only Vanguard fund, and the next cheapest option was PIMCO total return at 0.43%. Now, we have 3 Vanguard funds, and thankfully one of them is Balanced Index at 0.1%, so that's where all my money is.

Most of the funds are over 1%. Unfortunately, our "lifestyle" options (we have aggressive, moderate, and conservative) that many uneducated investors end up going for are a crappy mixture of the expensive funds in the plan. So they are paying a lot for not a great mix.
My plan is a bit like that too. You can put together a 3-fund portfolio with Fidelity Spartan index funds and pay around 0.4% ER all-in. But the "default" target retirement allocation containing various actively managed funds is 1.02%, which is an extra 0.61%. I'm grateful we have the index funds but feel sorry for my colleagues who unwittingly wind up in the default portfolios without knowing any better.
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stevewolfe
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by stevewolfe »

Lowest is Vanguard Index 500 Investor shares at 0.17% ER.

I emailed the 401(k) investment committee with a suggestion of trying to switch to signal share class to reduce expenses (we also have investor shares of Total Bond at 0.20%, Inflation Protected Bond at 0.20%, Extended Market index at 0.24% and Small Cap Stock index at 0.24%) but that didn't get anywhere (apparently as it's been 2+ years). But compared to some of the 401(k)'s out there I am not complaining...
placeholder
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by placeholder »

S&P 500 index at .05% of which .01% is the fund ER and the remainder is plan expenses.
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pennstater2005
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by pennstater2005 »

I don't have a workplace plan. My wife has a simple IRA through State Farm mutual funds which has a pretty poor overall selection. I currently have her in the monkey market fund to avoid the front load which all the other choices carry. It's expense ratio is .59%. I to a rollover into her traditional IRA at Vanguard twice a year. I question whether or not I should have her in the S&P 500 fund which carries an expense ratio of .79% but has a load.

Edit: This "I'm answering the poll" option has nailed me a few times. I went back and did it this time though :D
“If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.” – Earl Wilson
horste
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by horste »

cathyr wrote:I work for a tiny software company, and our 401K is through American Funds. Lowest cost fund is 1.37 % - yuck!
Different employer, probably similar size, but i have the same shotty selection from American Funds.
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nedsaid
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by nedsaid »

Vanguard Institutional Index Plus at 0.02%. Two basis points!!
A fool and his money are good for business.
skylar
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by skylar »

Have a 403b, whose lowest-expense fund is the Vanguard Institutional Index at 0.05%. That doesn't include recordkeeping fees, which are $60/year, which add ~0.05%, although that will go down as my account grows.
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Lacrocious
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Re: your lowest exspense ratio fund in 401

Post by Lacrocious »

Wifes 457 deferred comp:
- Stock: Vanguard Institutional Index Instl PL (tracks Index 500) - .02
- Bond: BlackRock US Debt Index Fund Coll W (Tracks Barclays US Aggregate Bond Index) - .05
On top of those, a $5.50 per quarter fee.

My 401K:
- Stock: Fidelity US Equity Index (Index 500 + ) - .04
- Bond: Vanguard Intermediate Bond Institutional - .07
Vanguard Tips Institutional - .07

We understand we are very lucky!
- L
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