The Estate lawyer cost us big

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
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Eric
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Eric »

bru wrote:My father named my cousin as executor of his Estate. Why exactly he did it we aren't sure.
This is the heart of the issue. If we knew your father's reasons for naming someone other than one of his adult children as executor, that might explain the expense. I know you don't know either, so I don't mean that as a criticism. But we don't have enough information to conclude that your cousin is taking advantage.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Longdog »

Based on all that you have told us, my gut tells me that your father trusted his nephew to be the trustee and executor due to his legal background, family relation, and a belief that handling an estate is necessarily complicated. It does seem that the expenses are high, though likely all "legal." I'll bet your cousin wasn't explicitly trying to milk your inheritance, but wasn't particularly concerned about the fees either - more oblivious than malicious. I empathize with your frustration, made worse by the fact that your co-beneficiary doesn't care about this like you do.

There is a school of thought that there is a psychological "cost" to holding on to anger and resentment. I hope at some point, whatever the outcome, you don't allow it to interfere with your ability to enjoy your life.
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bru
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

Eric wrote:
bru wrote:My father named my cousin as executor of his Estate. Why exactly he did it we aren't sure.
This is the heart of the issue. If we knew your father's reasons for naming someone other than one of his adult children as executor, that might explain the expense. I know you don't know either, so I don't mean that as a criticism. But we don't have enough information to conclude that your cousin is taking advantage.
$101K in expenses to settle a fairly basic trust and estate isn't taking advantage?

And regarding not naming a child as executor I'm pretty sure plenty of people don't. Maybe my father didn't want to burden us with dealing with his estate. Like I said who knows exactly why he did it but you make it sound like he's the only one to ever name someone other than a child as executor.
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bru
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

SteveM wrote:Based on all that you have told us, my gut tells me that your father trusted his nephew to be the trustee and executor due to his legal background, family relation, and a belief that handling an estate is necessarily complicated. It does seem that the expenses are high, though likely all "legal." I'll bet your cousin wasn't explicitly trying to milk your inheritance, but wasn't particularly concerned about the fees either - more oblivious than malicious. I empathize with your frustration, made worse by the fact that your co-beneficiary doesn't care about this like you do.

There is a school of thought that there is a psychological "cost" to holding on to anger and resentment. I hope at some point, whatever the outcome, you don't allow it to interfere with your ability to enjoy your life.
I agree with your assessment, mostly. I doubt it was malicious but my cousin easily could have given us a discount or not accounted for every second of his time but of course being a high powered attorney he did. He has to provide billable hours to his firm.

As to your second point, I doubt I will ever get over what he did. I know that's not a healthy attitude to take but it is how I feel. I'm sure over time the anger will fade and I certainly hope it won't interfere with my life but the what ifs related to the lost money and other aspects of the situation will always be there.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by The Wizard »

desertbandit442 wrote:
bru wrote:
desertbandit442 wrote: I would not sign anything yet and take that 37 page document of transactions to an estate lawyer to look over and give you his/her take on if it seems reasonable. I don't think it should take more than an hour to go through and cost no more than $150 - $250 for the consult.
The 37 page document is just transactions (Transaction Register). They are all things like selling a stock and transferring it to the cash reserve fund, paying the electric bill, etc. Those I know are legitimate. The Transaction Register includes "expenses" for the law firm. I still need to get the actual breakdown of these "expenses".
OK, sounds like that should be your plan before you sign. That is a reasonable request on your part, to get a breakdown of legal expenses, before signing the probate court paperwork he needs to close the estate. However, he sounds like a $400 - $500 an hour kinda guy and I suppose your request will increase the legal expense?
They may have paralegals or secretaries to do the work at half that hourly rate...
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mac808
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by mac808 »

Get the full bill, which should include every cost down to the penny, including itemization of the $16k tax prep and filing costs. Mark anything that seems inflated. Ask to speak to your cousin's boss, either the supervising partner, or if your cousin is a partner, then the managing partner of the firm. Complain that you have serious concerns that the bill was inflated, use a few examples, and say that you are considering filing a complaint. Sound friendly (but firm), solution-oriented, and open minded. Ask for a review of the bill and a suggested % reduction. I have done this before for other legal matters and have received 10-20% discounts when it felt like the bill had been padded. You might be able to save $20k with a phone call. If you can catch them having actually erroneously billed you (e.g. a phone call for 3 hours that went just 1 hour, or something similar) then you're looking at even more savings.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bsteiner »

You still haven't said anything about the size and nature of the estate (including the trust).

If a tax return cost $16,000, if it was an income tax return, the estate was probably large and complicated. If it was an estate tax return, then the estate was large enough to require an estate tax return. The Federal estate tax exempt amount has been $5 million or more since 2010. The Illinois estate tax exempt amount was $2 million in 2011, $3.5 million in 2012 and $4 million beginning in 2013.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

bsteiner wrote:You still haven't said anything about the size and nature of the estate (including the trust).

If a tax return cost $16,000, if it was an income tax return, the estate was probably large and complicated. If it was an estate tax return, then the estate was large enough to require an estate tax return. The Federal estate tax exempt amount has been $5 million or more since 2010. The Illinois estate tax exempt amount was $2 million in 2011, $3.5 million in 2012 and $4 million beginning in 2013.
I said in my second post (admittedly buried at this point) that the amount of the estate/trust left for distribution after expenses is ~$600K. Certainly not
"large". As for "complicated", not very in my opinion. The assets didn't consist of one mutual fund but they were not overly complicated. The Executor clearly made it appear complicated, so he could rack up the billable hours.
Last edited by bru on Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

The Wizard wrote:They may have paralegals or secretaries to do the work at half that hourly rate...
Most everything was done by the Executor and one other lawyer at the firm. Hourly rates for each ~$500. Of course the expenses would have been much less if they had used paralegals. They didn't.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Retread »

I think a number of us still feel you don't have all the facts. You say there was $600k left for distribution. How much was the gross estate? What was the nature of the assets and how were they held? Was there a Federal or state estate tax return? How do the fees break down as between trustees, personal representatives and attorneys? As I said at the beginning, if the fees are improper you don't need to just sit back and accept it. You have many remedies available to you as has been pointed out. The question still remains as to whether these fees were reasonable and you haven't divulged enough information to determine that. I suspect you don't have this information yourself.
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Random Musings
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Random Musings »

bru wrote:
The Wizard wrote:They may have paralegals or secretaries to do the work at half that hourly rate...
Most everything was done by the Executor and one other lawyer at the firm. Hourly rates for each ~$500. Of course the expenses would have been much less if they had used paralegals. They didn't.
For the basics, most ethical law firms will use paralegals for the basics. $1MM annual lawyer rate fees for, what it sounds like, a not too complicated estate sounds a tad unethical. $100K in fees is 200 hours of their time - must have been one complicated estate. :annoyed

However, as attorneys, I'm sure the checked out the legality of the situation before they skimmed about 15%. I guess you won't be inviting this relative over for the holidays.

RM
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Eric
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Eric »

I count four Boglehead attorneys in this thread with estate experience, and we each seem to have the same reaction: These facts don't add up. Now, they may not add up because the executor in question is in fact unethical. From the OP's posts, it seems that the executor is a reputable attorney from a reputable firm, but of course reputation isn't everything and you can find bad apples anywhere. But again, I would want to know more.

An earlier poster suggested talking to the executor to find out what is going on, but the OP is reluctant to do that. OK, understood. But that means we don't have the facts, and probably won't get the facts, needed to reach a conclusion here. I understand that most people don't need much convincing to decide that an attorney is a lyin' cheatin' scoundrel, and maybe we attorneys have ourselves to blame for some of that. But sometimes there is more to the story.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by harrylime »

So, to sum it up... It's "fund the kids' college fund" time for your cousin and his law firm.

The question is whether you are going to do anything about it.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

Retread wrote:I think a number of us still feel you don't have all the facts. You say there was $600k left for distribution. How much was the gross estate? What was the nature of the assets and how were they held? Was there a Federal or state estate tax return? How do the fees break down as between trustees, personal representatives and attorneys? As I said at the beginning, if the fees are improper you don't need to just sit back and accept it. You have many remedies available to you as has been pointed out. The question still remains as to whether these fees were reasonable and you haven't divulged enough information to determine that. I suspect you don't have this information yourself.
Bruce
I think I've given all the information I have. But here it is again

The estate was roughly $700K. It consisted of a Trust and estate. After expenses they have $600K to distribute.
Assets consisted of stocks and mutual funds held in the Trust and a primary residence which was not part of the trust so became part of the estate. There was minor personal property that also is part of the state. That's it.
The date of death was in 2013 so yes they filed taxes for TY 2012.

Based on the breakdown of fees I have seen nothing would be considered improper or unethical. In my opinion excessive but not anything that the Executor and law firm couldn't easily justify.

So if I have "many remedies" can you please list them because at this point I am confused. Thanks.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

Eric wrote:I count four Boglehead attorneys in this thread with estate experience, and we each seem to have the same reaction: These facts don't add up. Now, they may not add up because the executor in question is in fact unethical. From the OP's posts, it seems that the executor is a reputable attorney from a reputable firm, but of course reputation isn't everything and you can find bad apples anywhere. But again, I would want to know more.

An earlier poster suggested talking to the executor to find out what is going on, but the OP is reluctant to do that. OK, understood. But that means we don't have the facts, and probably won't get the facts, needed to reach a conclusion here. I understand that most people don't need much convincing to decide that an attorney is a lyin' cheatin' scoundrel, and maybe we attorneys have ourselves to blame for some of that. But sometimes there is more to the story.
I'm not sure what other facts you need from my end? The estate was not overly complicated. Everything they did they documented and no doubt can prove it was necessary. Necessary yes but excessive in my mind. So basically I am screwed. A high powered law firm charged high powered fees.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

harrylime wrote:So, to sum it up... It's "fund the kids' college fund" time for your cousin and his law firm.

The question is whether you are going to do anything about it.
Based on my above two posts what exactly can I do?
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

Random Musings wrote: For the basics, most ethical law firms will use paralegals for the basics. $1MM annual lawyer rate fees for, what it sounds like, a not too complicated estate sounds a tad unethical. $100K in fees is 200 hours of their time - must have been one complicated estate. :annoyed

However, as attorneys, I'm sure the checked out the legality of the situation before they skimmed about 15%. I guess you won't be inviting this relative over for the holidays.

RM
You don't think a law firm can generate 200 hours to settle an estate whether the situation is complicated or not? The question is should they? No doubt everything they did was legal. But was it excessive or even necessary?

High powered law firms don't get that way by doing things quick and expeditiously. They draw it out. They milk it for whatever they can.
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Eric
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Eric »

bru wrote:Based on the breakdown of fees I have seen nothing would be considered improper or unethical. In my opinion excessive but not anything that the Executor and law firm couldn't easily justify.
You indicated that there are 200 hours of attorney time in that breakdown. Can you describe some of the larger line items, without disclosing anything confidential? That's one of the missing pieces here. You mention that the work itself doesn't seem improper, so the attorneys must be putting something in those billing entries that sounds plausible, if excessive. What is it?
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by harrylime »

Eric wrote:I understand that most people don't need much convincing to decide that an attorney is a lyin' cheatin' scoundrel, and maybe we attorneys have ourselves to blame for some of that. But sometimes there is more to the story.
I understand what you are saying about not having all the facts and perhaps wondering if there is something not being revealed. But, taking Bru, at his word, there was one piece of real estate, some minor personal property, and various stocks and mutual funds.

Let's put it this way... If a reasonably competent "lay" trustee/executor performed the tasks involved - putting the real estate on the market, liquidating the securities, paying any creditors, keeping an accounting, etc. - and asked you what hourly rate would be considered reasonable, how would you reply? $25? $50? $75?


I also find it interesting that Bru indicates that all the compensation and fees are being charged to the trust rather than partially to the trust and partially to the probate estate. Since the trust is privately administered unless an interested party takes the initiative to involve a court, could it be that cousin is trying to avoid any judicial review of the compensation/attorney fees?
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by harrylime »

bru wrote:
harrylime wrote:So, to sum it up... It's "fund the kids' college fund" time for your cousin and his law firm.

The question is whether you are going to do anything about it.
Based on my above two posts what exactly can I do?
You refuse to accept the accounting and you dispute it with your cousin.

If that does not produce any results, you decide whether to involve the courts or pack it in.
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Eric
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Eric »

harrylime wrote:taking Bru, at his word, there was one piece of real estate, some minor personal property, and various stocks and mutual funds.
And taking Bru at his word, the attorneys spent 200 hours dealing with that, and the work descriptions themselves don't seem improper. So what did the 200 hours entail?
harrylime wrote:Let's put it this way... If a reasonably competent "lay" trustee/executor performed the tasks involved - putting the real estate on the market, liquidating the securities, paying any creditors, keeping an accounting, etc. - and asked you what hourly rate would be considered reasonable? $25? $50? $75?
Does it take 200 hours to put real estate on the market, liquidate securities, and make an accounting? I wouldn't think so, which is why I've asked what compromised the major part of the 200 hours. And that also makes it difficult to answer your question. Some years ago I had a client get mad at me (over a ~$2,000 estate plan) because my charges (which I estimated and disclosed accurately in advance) included meeting with the client to execute his documents. He felt that he could have had a notary do that for $6. Compared to that, my rate was outrageous.
Last edited by Eric on Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by manwithnoname »

harrylime wrote:
Eric wrote:I understand that most people don't need much convincing to decide that an attorney is a lyin' cheatin' scoundrel, and maybe we attorneys have ourselves to blame for some of that. But sometimes there is more to the story.
I understand what you are saying about not having all the facts and perhaps wondering if there is something not being revealed. But, taking Bru, at his word, there was one piece of real estate, some minor personal property, and various stocks and mutual funds.

Let's put it this way... If a reasonably competent "lay" trustee/executor performed the tasks involved - putting the real estate on the market, liquidating the securities, paying any creditors, keeping an accounting, etc. - and asked you what hourly rate would be considered reasonable? $25? $50? $75?
T/E Lawyers in NY (not NYC ) charge 350+ per hour because of their skills. They re not going to lower their fees because they are acting as an executor.

There is no such creature as a reasonably competent lay person who can perform the duties of an executor without the advice of counsel. The ones who try to act as executors without the assistance of counsel screw it up and spend more money hiring counsel to fix the problems they created.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by FrogPrince »

With large law firms, you have to understand the pressure to bring in business to the firm. The key metrics to success in a firm are how much business you bring in and how many hours you bill. Thus, most lawyers in big firms live to run up the meter, especially on the unsophisticated. Lions eat gazelles - and lawyers run up their meter. That's how they are. Your cousin traded his family obligation in for running up points within the firm. The original sin, your father's, was to have a big law firm in the mix.

I went through this on a corp level, and I second the advice someone posted earlier. Contact someone higher than your cousin, and explain that you feel very upset about the overbilling and that you think a reasonable number is X (I would have another unrelated lawyer estimate based on the amount of work), and for them to meet it. Go item wise on each instance of overbilling. Don't threaten anything, just say that you won't be happy otherwise. Be firm but polite. Most likely they will knock a portion off.

As for your cousin, he doesn't care, and you can at best shun him. And make sure you warn off the other relatives from using him.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by harrylime »

manwithnoname wrote:
There is no such creature as a reasonably competent lay person who can perform the duties of an executor without the advice of counsel. The ones who try to act as executors without the assistance of counsel screw it up and spend more money hiring counsel to fix the problems they created.
First, i admit that I intended, but failed, to add something along the lines of "... and retaining an attorney for procedural matters and any complicated questions that might arise."

Second, not withstanding that, your statement above is false.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by manwithnoname »

bru wrote:
Retread wrote:I think a number of us still feel you don't have all the facts. You say there was $600k left for distribution. How much was the gross estate? What was the nature of the assets and how were they held? Was there a Federal or state estate tax return? How do the fees break down as between trustees, personal representatives and attorneys? As I said at the beginning, if the fees are improper you don't need to just sit back and accept it. You have many remedies available to you as has been pointed out. The question still remains as to whether these fees were reasonable and you haven't divulged enough information to determine that. I suspect you don't have this information yourself.
Bruce
I think I've given all the information I have. But here it is again

The estate was roughly $700K. It consisted of a Trust and estate. After expenses they have $600K to distribute.
Assets consisted of stocks and mutual funds held in the Trust and a primary residence which was not part of the trust so became part of the estate. There was minor personal property that also is part of the state. That's it.
The date of death was in 2013 so yes they filed taxes for TY 2012.

Based on the breakdown of fees I have seen nothing would be considered improper or unethical. In my opinion excessive but not anything that the Executor and law firm couldn't easily justify.

So if I have "many remedies" can you please list them because at this point I am confused. Thanks.
What were the 100k in expenses? Expenses in probating an estate include payment of funeral expenses and preparation of tax returns as well as legal and executors fees. Funeral expenses and tax preparation fees not part of the executors fees but are an expense against the estate.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

FrogPrince wrote:Contact someone higher than your cousin, and explain that you feel very upset about the overbilling and that you think a reasonable number is X (I would have another unrelated lawyer estimate based on the amount of work), and for them to meet it. Go item wise on each instance of overbilling. Don't threaten anything, just say that you won't be happy otherwise. Be firm but polite. Most likely they will knock a portion off.
The law firm has hundreds of "shareholders" at this office alone. How would I choose who to contact?
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

manwithnoname wrote: What were the 100k in expenses? Expenses in probating an estate include payment of funeral expenses and preparation of tax returns as well as legal and executors fees. Funeral expenses and tax preparation fees not part of the executors fees but are an expense against the estate.
I answered this question several times.

Fees such as funeral expenses were deducted directly from the Trust and/or estate. Where they came from specifically doesn't matter to me, they came out of the "estate" left for distribution. They are not part of the $101K in expenses.

The expenses I am talking about are for the Executor and law firm only for work performed.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by SnapShots »

manwithnoname wrote:
chaz wrote:If upset by a lawyer's fee, you can file a complaint with the State Bar Assn. and/or a civil lawsuit against the lawyer.
and who is going to take the case?

Be very careful about what you say in a complaint to the Stat Bar association/lawsuit because you could be opening yourself up to a defamation suit which will cost you more than 90k in legal fees or damages.
Really??!!! A complaint made to a professional organization about a member can result in a lawsuit? There would never be any complaints if this is true. I doubt this, but I've been wrong before.
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SnapShots
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by SnapShots »

Good thread to learn about executors. There are reasons to have an executor such as divorces often create warring family members: exs, biological and step-children....his, hers and ours. But, beware of the expense especially if the executor is an attorney. If this was a non-conflicted estate - $90K seems a bit much.

My brother-in-law made his CPA is executor. After his death, there were lots of conflicting parties. The executor hired an attorney to help settle the estate. I didn't see the bill but remember the executor saying, he would never be an executor again...it was so much trouble and work.

Our two kids are co-executors of our estate. We have an uncomplicated estate, no exs or steps. I suppose, if the kids decide to fight, then they'll pay a price. However, we're telling them in advance what's suppose to happen.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by likegarden »

Thank you bru, this is good reading. It shows not to put a lawyer into the will as executor, and keep any assets very simple, like all in one company like Vanguard and have one bank. We will have an estate with a little more $ like your father had, very simple, and it is surprising to read that two lawyers employing each other without paralegals at $500/hr are milking the estate. We have to update our wills.
I would not fight them, they would rack up legally another $10k per month, you can't win. With all your stress remember that your father selected your cousin, and that is the result. But I would check into how I could file a complaint with the state afterwards.
Retread
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Retread »

As one of the several attorneys who have discussed this, it simply doesn't pass the smell test. No law firm could get away with charging $100k on a $700k estate and I can't even imagine a reputable firm making an attempt to charge this much. You are clearly missing some facts. You have been given many possible remedies. Pursue them.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by harrylime »

bru wrote:
FrogPrince wrote:Contact someone higher than your cousin, and explain that you feel very upset about the overbilling and that you think a reasonable number is X (I would have another unrelated lawyer estimate based on the amount of work), and for them to meet it. Go item wise on each instance of overbilling. Don't threaten anything, just say that you won't be happy otherwise. Be firm but polite. Most likely they will knock a portion off.
The law firm has hundreds of "shareholders" at this office alone. How would I choose who to contact?
Your cousin is the fiduciary. Start with him.


Did you read the case provided by bsteiner? It provides a discussion of "reasonability."

http://www.state.il.us/court/opinions/a ... 100338.pdf
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by TSR »

Yeah, I just want to chime in here again before this post runs its course. It really does sound -- as some have suggested -- as though your cousin decided that this would be a good case on which to let the meter run. That is both unreasonable and unethical and, unfortunately, sometimes hard to prove.

I also agree with others that the best place to start is with the firm itself. Find out what group actually handled the estate (trusts and estates? litigation? corporate?). That group will have a head partner. Ask to speak to him or her regarding a billing problem.* (If you are not able to find out who that is, ask to speak to the firm's managing partner.) Speak to that person and complain that you believe that either (1) the billing statements do not adequately explain why you were charged $100k, or (2) the fees were unreasonable in light of the work that was done. Ask for something in writing that explains why those fees are reasonable. Make it clear (without saying so, perhaps) that you are seeking all the evidence you need to proceed with your next options. It seems likely that they will agree that the fees are unreasonable -- I do, for what little that's worth -- and offer some discount. If they do not, you might consider whether or not you should proceed with an ethics complaint before the state bar.

Best of luck.

*you could also speak to your cousin about this, but I get the sense that you feel that this is no longer a good option. I'm sorry about that.
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

Retread wrote:As one of the several attorneys who have discussed this, it simply doesn't pass the smell test. No law firm could get away with charging $100k on a $700k estate and I can't even imagine a reputable firm making an attempt to charge this much. You are clearly missing some facts. You have been given many possible remedies. Pursue them.
Bruce
With all due respect I have told you everything I can. It was a basic Trust which contained stocks and mutual funds. Then there were items such as personal property and primary residence that were not in the trust so were considered the estate and went through probate.

From the breakdown I have seen so far all expense were for composing emails, writing letters, time spent to liquidate stocks, travel to court etc. All expense such as funeral, credit card pay offs etc. were deducted from the trust/estate and are not part of the fees I am talking about. Two lawyers did 99% of the work (the Executor and a Wills and Trust specialist at the firm) and charged roughly $500/hr. This accounts for the fees.

What else do you think I am not telling you? What are you surmising could account for the high fees if not only for the work performed including the Executor's fees?

And again this is a long thread and I have lost track so can you summarize the "many possible remedies"? I would appreciate it.
Nowizard
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Nowizard »

That is an absurdly high fee but not particularly surprising given the fact that lawyers have great influence in state legislatures that determine regulations regarding fees for settling of estates. One way to avoid this in the future is to have assets in a Revocable Trust. That will cost you about $1,500 in our state, but it means no probate. I am not an attorney but have been executor of an estate with similar assets and found the process to be straight forward and that there are readily available sources on-line to answer more complicated questions. It also seems very odd that a family member would charge a fee at all rather than considering it a final gesture that could be made for the deceased. Actual expenses for closing an estate under a Trust are minimal. The one done in the past involved purchase of a filing folder to hold correspondence and details, a ledger to keep track of expenses and income from bank accounts/stocks, etc., stamps and envelopes. It was less than $100, plus time freely donated.

Tim
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greg24
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by greg24 »

I would consider sending your cousin a link to this thread.
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Eric
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Eric »

Nowizard wrote:One way to avoid this in the future is to have assets in a Revocable Trust.
The deceased had a revocable trust, and it sounds like he had most of his assets in the trust. So this thread does not show that at all.
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FrogPrince
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by FrogPrince »

bru wrote:
FrogPrince wrote:Contact someone higher than your cousin, and explain that you feel very upset about the overbilling and that you think a reasonable number is X (I would have another unrelated lawyer estimate based on the amount of work), and for them to meet it. Go item wise on each instance of overbilling. Don't threaten anything, just say that you won't be happy otherwise. Be firm but polite. Most likely they will knock a portion off.
The law firm has hundreds of "shareholders" at this office alone. How would I choose who to contact?
This is not that complicated - just ask one of the two lawyers who ran up the bill who their higher-up is. Or call up the main desk and ask the same thing. Or the website might list the head honcho for the estates area.
Retread
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Retread »

bru wrote:And again this is a long thread and I have lost track so can you summarize the "many possible remedies"? I would appreciate it.
You, as the beneficiary of the estate, have a number of remedies and don't just have to sit back and accept the charges. To summarize most of what has been said, OBJECT! Object to your cousin, object to the managing partner or head of the trust and estates section of the firm, object to the final accounting of the executor or object to the court overseeing the administration of the estate. Once the estate is closed and you have accepted the accounting it is too late.

By the way, how do you know of these charges and where were they shown? Have you received a final accounting? I still believe there are material facts missing from this story. I administered estates and trusts of all shapes and sizes my entire career and never saw anything approaching this. Accordingly, I firmly believe either you are missing important information or we are.

Bruce
Last edited by Retread on Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
absit iniuria verbis
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1210sda
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by 1210sda »

I'm glad this post was made. It can be quite a lesson for those of us who may encounter this in the future.

I sincerely hope that Bru will keep us posted on the eventual outcome.

1210
Electrum
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Electrum »

I was executor and was co-trustee with my sister of my Father's trust, but I handled everything. The situation I dealt with was a tad simpler, since he was in an apartment by that time. However, the estate was about 750K, similar in size to OP's father. There were mutual funds, no individual stocks. I settled this myself, with some help from my Dad's lawyer. There were < 20K of assets outside the trust, and so it was considered a 'small estate' by his state of residence. I filled out some forms, paid $88.00 probate fee and that was that.

My Dad's tax person did the taxes, which cost $650.00. The total legal bill was about $700.00, and I donated my time. Maybe my experience was unusual, but it looks to be like the OP's family got ripped off. What an eye opener, though. I am going to re-think who we have named executor and co-trustee.

I hope the OP can come to some sort of resolution here.
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frugaltype
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by frugaltype »

Eric wrote:
bru wrote:My father named my cousin as executor of his Estate. Why exactly he did it we aren't sure.
This is the heart of the issue. If we knew your father's reasons for naming someone other than one of his adult children as executor, that might explain the expense. I know you don't know either, so I don't mean that as a criticism. But we don't have enough information to conclude that your cousin is taking advantage.
He probably did it because the guy was a lawyer. My mother named a CPA relative as the executor/trustee; he did a horrendous job that I had to repair. There can be a degree of naivety on the part of the deceased person.
sscritic
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by sscritic »

Here is a thought. The beneficiaries of the trust are not the same as the beneficiaries of the estate, and the lawyer for the trust is spending a lot of time negotiating with the lawyer for the estate. Think divorce: it is easy to run up charges when the two sides are battling over money.

P.S. I can't find a single reference to the trustee in any of the OP's posts. Maybe I missed it.
Nowizard
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by Nowizard »

Eric: I may have missed whether this was a Revocable Trust, but the dwelling and other items were not in the Trust. That required it to be probated which would otherwise not have been a requirement.

Tim
2stepsbehind
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by 2stepsbehind »

I'd suggest you find the accounting you were provided, redact any personally identifying information and upload it somewhere and link it to this thread and some of the lawyers can take a look and see if it seems reasonable.
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runner9
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by runner9 »

OP: you ask several times for a summary of your options. Having just read the entire thread for the first time my quick summary is:

do nothing, but know for sure you'll be ok with it long term. In this case sign the 2/28 papers.

Don't sign the 2/28 papers and:
try to get a better breakdown of fees, plus 1 or more of:

call the main office number and speak to someone higher up.
talk to your cousin in person
talk to another lawyer office, hopefully for less than $500.
file a complaint with the bar or state.

This is what I quickly came up with reading through the thread. Best of luck on everything, including your wife's health.
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bru
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

For those that asked my wifes health is still pretty bad. 8 days and counting in the hospital. Hoping to move her to a Long Term Acute Care facility but doubtful insurance will pay.

Having only received a partial breakdown of fees so far I asked for a complete breakdown of costs. Received 10 pdf files with 4 of them, totaling about 28% of to date fees only showing "Total Amount Due". Asked for a breakdown of those and was told those "invoices were issued in summary form. I will have accounting prepare an itemization of the daily time entries for those bills and send that to when complete."

LOL wondering how many hours accounting will bill. I'm sure the four emails that went back and forth just to get to this point cost at least 1.00 hour of billable time if not more.
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bru
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by bru »

sscritic wrote:Here is a thought. The beneficiaries of the trust are not the same as the beneficiaries of the estate, and the lawyer for the trust is spending a lot of time negotiating with the lawyer for the estate. Think divorce: it is easy to run up charges when the two sides are battling over money.

P.S. I can't find a single reference to the trustee in any of the OP's posts. Maybe I missed it.
The beneficiaries are essentially the same for both. Grandchildren were also named as beneficiaries of the trust and have received their distributions but the amounts were minor. The trust stipulated that x amount go to each primary beneficiary while the estate is being divided equally among the beneficiaries. The trust is by far the larger amount.

I thought it was clear that the Executor of the trust is also the administering the estate. Since the Executor is not an Estate lawyer he is using another member of his firm who is. Between the two they have racked up 99%of the fees. It seems an underling was used to go to probate court once or twice.
dekecarver
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Re: The Estate lawyer cost us big

Post by dekecarver »

Ok here goes with all due respect to you and your situation:
Either poop or get off the pot. With the advice that has been given to you from this board based on the info you have provided it sounds to me like you've been given multiple options of which really don't take that much time. You have probably spent more time than it would take to either: call the firm; talk to your cousin; or seek advice from a secondary firm, to rethink the situation, repost information, create more angst for yourself, etc..

I can honestly say I know how this type of situation along with a a very sick spouse can effect your thinking etc..Bottom line is step back, take a breath and seek resolution or forget about it and move on. There is a point where your own indecisiveness can have a negative effect on your mental and physical health.

P.S. After it's all and done over with take your cousin out back behind the woodshed.
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