Moving from midwest to Australia

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newkidontheblock
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Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by newkidontheblock »

I am in my early forties, married with 2 young children. Live in MN. Both I and my wife have good jobs.
I have a technical sales job.
I have lived in MN for the past 22 years. My wife moved here when we got married from East Coast.
I was self employed IT consultant for a long time so I have a good network. When she moved to MN after marriage I had told her it takes years to build a network so it was better for us to keep on living in MN. I joined a very large company 5 years ago so the need for network was not as strong.
last few winters have been brutal so my wife has been asking me to consider other places to live.
My wife has a job in healthcare that pays very well but it is very stressful. She has a terrible manager so she is exploring new opportunities and trying to survive.

Yesterday I came to know about a new opportunity at my current employer in Sydney Australia. I will have to interview for the job but I have a great chance to get the offer.
I was worried about high cost of living in Australia but I was told that my salary may go up 250% to 300%. My employer will send movers to pack everything and ship it to Australia.

My wife works for a global company as well and even they have an office in Sydney but we don't know if there are job openings there.

This job is in Australia opening at a time when there are a lot of opportunities brewing so making the sales quota will be much easier than my current region.
Here are a bit more details:

I own a home that is down $200K according to Zillow
I own 2 rental condo's are also down 50K each. I do have renters and I have a partner who still lives in MN.

Selling my home is possible the we will lose $200K. I may consider renting my home for an year or two. My brother also lives in the same city and I will hire a management company to take care of the home.

We live in a 5500 Sq.ft home but based on my 30 minutes of search in Sydney we may have to live in 2-3 bedroom rental and still pay more than our current mortgage.
I heard that cost of living is 60% more. I heard that public schools are good but they may not be free for foreigners.
We are US citizens so we may still have to US taxes for any income over 90K.
We will need new cars because they drive on the left.
Healthcare is covered by employer and self insurance.
My kids are only 2 and 4 so they not have a big problem adjusting.

My concerns are:
1. I still don't know if my wife will find a job or what the visa requirements are. She is burned out at her current employer so she can use a 6 month break but she is not the kind who can sit at home forever. She does clinical research. We will be looking at loss of six figure salary for the foreseeable future.
2. Housing: We are 4-5 years away from paying off our current home. Now we are looking at living in a 2 bedroom apartment and slowing working towards buying a much smaller home.
3. I love my current employer but I do know that things can change at any time. If my role changes or if I want to leave I can find a great job very quickly in MN because of my network but that is not going to happen in Australia.
4. At the age of 43 it is a bit daunting to start life again as an immigrant in a new country. I do see folks do this all the time in "House Hunters International".
5. I fear that we have had 2 terrible winters in MN and I am not being rational. I am putting our financial well being at risk
6. Still don't know what we don't know and I don't have a lot of time to make our decision.
7. Not quite sure what happens to our 401K's, IRA and kids education 529 plans. We may come back to US in a few years but it is hard to know what will happen in future.

Pluses are:
My kids get to experience a new culture/country when they are young
Our employer has a large office so It will not be hard to settle down
Weather in Sydney and close access to beach sounds amazing.
Seems to me that folks have better work life balance in Australia than US. I will still work for my US based employer so I am not sure if I will still be working the long hours I currently do.

I have to decide by Monday if I am going to interview for the job. Any experience/insight will be much appreciated.
stan1
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by stan1 »

Sydney is one of my favorite cities in the world, but it is EXPENSIVE especially for housing. I have no specific advice to offer, other than this seems like a high benefit high cost situation which are always tough decisions to make. Sorry for not being of more help.
Last edited by stan1 on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by cheese_breath »

It's been over 20 years since I worked there on a consulting assignment (Melbourne) so I can't give you any information on the current economics other than what you already know. It's expensive. But from a cultural perspective I'd jump at the opportunity. It's enough like the U.S. that you won't have any problems blending in, but it's different enough so you know you're in a different country. A word of caution about the driving though. Be careful. I felt very comfortable driving on the other side after awhile and didn't give it a second thought. But there was one time when my American instincts unexpectedly kicked in, and I almost wiped out on the wrong side of the road.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
Random Poster
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Random Poster »

Interview for the position.

What is the worst that can happen? You don't get an offer? If that occurs, then all of your what-ifs that you have posted here are meaningless.

If you get the offer, then you can start fretting about the details (of which there will be many).

It isn't clear from your post if you will be paid in USD or AUD, who will be paying for your housing (in my current expat postion, my employer gives me a tax-free [to me] housing allowance, anything that I don't spend I get to keep), and whether you will get a tax-free (to you) goods-and-services pay differential and/or an international assignment pay premium (which could be, say, 15% to 20% of your base pay). Additionally, who will do your US and Australian tax returns? You or your employer? Do you get a car allowance or is a car simply provided to you? If you are on a true expat assignment, most employers don't want you to be too tied down to your host country, so they tend to discourage home buying and car buying and the like. Who pays for your kids schooling? All of these things you should ask during the interview (or shortly thereafter, if you get the offer).
Andyrunner
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Andyrunner »

Minnesota winters arn't that bad!
You just have to go with it. Get some snowshoes or skis.

My brother lived in Sydney and he currently lives in Perth. Ill try and talk to him this weekend about Sydney and see what he says.
angelescrest
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by angelescrest »

Sounds like you are thinking of the right variables financially, but since you will get a fair salary I don't think this is really a financial decision. Don't let that be your primary factor in deciding. I've spent time in Oz, and have worked with many Aussies here. One of my closest friends took a job there for about five years, and she had a blast. I've also entertained a couple possibilities, and had I been given a real offer, I wouldn't have hesitated. If your wife is miserable at work, and you're in MN, this will be quite a radical change--mostly positive. At your kid's ages, this international and multicultural experience would be great for their development.

Sydney is one of the most beautiful and exciting cities in the world. Housing is astronomical, and you would have to get used to living in a smaller home. But I would say that's a good adjustment for anyone (less is more), and remember that compared to MN, you will be spending so much more time outside than inside. Heck, you can even commute to work by boat and see the opera house and the ol' hangar bridge every day--although that all depends on where you live and work. It truly is an international melting pot and they do appreciate adventure and a healthier lifestyle more than we do. Eating out there costs more, but that's because their waiters don't make $3 an hour.

As one post already stated, interview first and then see. You mentioned having almost paid your house off but it's down 200k? That sucks, but I'm not sure how that's really relevant. If a stock you bought was down 50%, for example, does that mean you have to keep it until it's back to its original value? You could always sell the property and invest the equity elsewhere and make up that 200k, maybe even faster. Being a landlord isn't great, as you likely already know, and doing it from overseas is less than ideal. But again, that's not a huge factor here since you aren't underwater. If you want to come back to MN after then that's another matter.

Talk it over with your wife, go talk to some Aussie friends, and tell us how it goes. This would be a life changing experience--enjoy considering the new opportunity.
sesq
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by sesq »

newkidontheblock wrote: We are US citizens so we may still have to US taxes for any income over 90K.
Don't let the tax tail wag the dog. There are foreign tax credits that are designed to put you no worse off. There may be a bit of leakage but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Australia has a wonderful climate and I really liked the people in my too brief visit. Life is for the living, you should definitely try for it.
SDBoggled
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by SDBoggled »

I would definitely interview... you can decide later.

A few thoughts:

"Sydney" has a population of almost $5m and is a big sprawl like Los Angeles, thus there are huge variations in real estate prices. Unfortunately, public school quality correlates fairly highly with real estate prices. As a generalization, you might look start looking south of Sydney (not cheap, but cheaper than north) but still closer to beaches. Moving west is generally cheaper again but could definitely be an hour from beach. You can also take the analogy one step further and say moving from MN to Sydney is similar to moving from MN to LA. (IMHO living in LA is closer to living in Sydney than MN)

If you are working in the city center, the train system is what most people use, so you may be able to get away with one car... it will be significantly more expensive than similar car in U.S.

It doesn't sound like it has to be a permanent move, so perhaps there is no rush to sell current real estate. You may, for example, move to Sydney, be promoted then move back to the U.S. somewhere warmer.... or you may fall in love with Sydney.

An intercompany transfer (even with pay cut) sounds the way to minimize Wife loss of earnings???

There is a tax treaty so you will not be double taxed... but if you earn income in both countries you will need to submit two tax returns and the fiscal years are offset by 6 months.

If I read correctly, you have 3 underwater properties, I would strongly caution you to review prior purchasing decisions before committing to another purchase. Zillow can be significantly low or high depending on the location... IMHO recent comparable sales are a better indicator (e.g. don't compare winter prices to spring).

If this opportunity doesn't pan out, I suggest moving intercompany within the States (can be just as different as Sydney) without loss of Wife income.
Topic Author
newkidontheblock
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:59 am

Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by newkidontheblock »

For us good school for kids is a lot more important than proximity to a beach. We will go to beach a few times a month so even 1 hour driving distance is not a big deal.
We don't mind using public transportation at all. My job will certainly require car. If they were not driving on the other side we would have loved to take 3 very nice cars with us.
I am going to check out rentals in south and west to see what is available.
I came to US with $750 in 1992 so it feel strange to start over in a new country but this time I am married with kids and I have a job waiting for me.

Thanks for your suggestions.
scone
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by scone »

Hello, I'm married to an Australian/U.K. dual citizen, and I've been over to Oz a bit, visiting. We will be spending part of the year down under after we retire-- Australia is a wonderful place. So I have some random thoughts, FWIW.

The biggest issues out there are the cultural differences, and especially the subtle cultural differences that won't show up until you stick your foot in your mouth or do something that's "not done" in Australia. This is a little hard to describe because the Aussies like to think of themselves as very modern and easygoing, and they aren't necessarily going to correct you at every turn.

The first impression you might get is of "British colonials in California." Like taking the crew of the Bounty and dumping them off in San Diego circa 1965. Surf's up! But it's not really like that anymore-- it's extremely diverse, much more so than America. Everyone has to go along to get along, because it's an island and because the Euro-Australians are now a smaller part of a large empty country off the coast of Southeast Asia.

Another thing about Aussies is their intense egalitarianism. There is an expression called "tall poppy syndrome." That is, "the tall poppy gets cut down." If you show off, you will be quietly undermined. There is a very strong feeling of "all lads together" and you had better not come across as bossy, even if you are the boss. The pub culture is part of this. I have never met an Australian teetotaler.

For the Aussies, the Queen of England is the Queen of Australia. Don't diss her. And never joke about Gallipoli unless you want your face rearranged.

Aussies are not prudes. Television will sometimes show the full monty during the day. Some beaches are clothing optional. This is especially true of Sydney. Aussies generally don't like those who try to lecture them on morals-- that person is a "wowser," and not held in high esteem.

The people are quite urbanized. Once you get out beyond the urban growth boundary, there are very few people at all. That's partly due to environmental concerns, and lack of water. They are very wrapped up in environmental issues, and there's a lot of conflict with the commodity resource extraction industries as a result. It's a bit like the American Far West in that respect. And that reminds me of the Aborigines. They are many nations, like the Native Americans here. Some of the issues are similar, but don't imagine they are identical. If you want some insight, Australian independent films are a pretty good place to start.

More than anything else, be humble-- don't be an "ugly American." Our policies are perceived very differently overseas, and while Aussies are our allies, they are "ambivalent allies." In fact there is a book of that title, if you're interested.

But if you read nothing else, do read The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes. It's the best primer I have found.
"My bond allocation is the amount of money that I cannot afford to lose." -- Taylor Larimore
rongos
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by rongos »

I own a home that is down $200K according to Zillow
I own 2 rental condo's are also down 50K each.
I can't help but think that you may be setting yourself up to get in near the top of the Australia housing bubble and ride that one down too.
Topic Author
newkidontheblock
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:59 am

Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by newkidontheblock »

I plan to rent for 1-2 years before purchasing anything. So I hope to avoid this real estate loss streak.
pinecrest
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Post by pinecrest »

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Last edited by pinecrest on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dgdevil
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by dgdevil »

Scone's analysis is excellent.

In addition to Gallipoli, there's a sense that Aussies feel as if WW2 just ended last week, particularly in the Asian theater. The War Museum in Canberra is one of the country's biggest attractions. It's easy to hype up the similarities between USA and Australia, but they are very, very different in so many ways, just as Australia and New Zealand are.

But overall it's much more relaxed than USA, and I think that will benefit your kids. There's no TSA, no paramilitary suburban cops, none of the paranoia that exists here. But you do have to present picture ID when you mail a package overseas. Quality of the food is better than in USA - none of the trashy antibiotic-laden meat supplied by the big factory farms.

Yes, the sun is a big deal, but your kids will look very cute going to school every day in their uniforms (!) and regulation sunhats. They'll get to play real sport in Australia.

The only real negative is that the economy is cooling, and it's a small, remote country that doesn't have the economies of scale - as its domestic auto industry is finding out as we speak. Oh yeah, it's real expensive. A shopping trip to Woolworths will be a draining experience.

The flies! It can be like Florida in terms of bugs and reptiles (and crazy people).
stan1
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by stan1 »

One question for OP: would you be on a sponsored work visa (up to 4 years if my quick review of the Australian immigration website is correct)?
No point even thinking about buying a house if you are on a work visa.
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AlohaJoe
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by AlohaJoe »

Finally, am area I'm an expert in! :) (I moved from the US to Sydney 6 years ago; the company I work for employs a number of people whom we have relocated here from overseas, not just the US.)
I was worried about high cost of living in Australia
Yes, things can be more expensive here. But, guess what? There are 20 million people here who manage to live, work, raise families, and be happy.
My wife works for a global company as well and even they have an office in Sydney but we don't know if there are job openings there.
So long as your wife doesn't do something with occupational licensing (lawyer, doctor, veterinarian, etc) she'll almost certainly be able to get a job here.
We live in a 5500 Sq.ft home but based on my 30 minutes of search in Sydney we may have to live in 2-3 bedroom rental and still pay more than our current mortgage.
You should not buy a house when you move to any new country; you need to settle in and figure out what neighbourhoods you like. Maybe you think you'll like Paddington, discover you hate it, and then find bliss in Manly. I would warn against renting a place out in suburbia. Yes, you get more for your money but...why would you move around the world to one of the greatest cities on Earth to live in something very much like American suburbia?
I heard that cost of living is 60% more.
As I said, millions of people live in Sydney just fine. People on minimum wage, people with families, etc. Looking (too much) at cost of living is worrying about the things you can count and ignoring the things you can't count.
I heard that public schools are good but they may not be free for foreigners.
If you have a 457 visa, yes there is a fee. It is several thousand dollars. That should be a consideration when you are negotiating with your employer. (Either they pay for it, or your salary increase makes you comfortable paying for it yourself.)
We are US citizens so we may still have to US taxes for any income over 90K.
This is extraordinarily unlikely to happen due to the way foreign tax credits work. Yes, it sucks that I have to file my US taxes every year but I never have to actually pay anything. That said, I don't know how things like rental income work into the equation.
I still don't know if my wife will find a job or what the visa requirements are.
The 457 visa lets family work without restrictions. Australia has had substantially lower unemployment than American for a very long time now but it has fewer sectors. So it depends on what your wife does.
Housing: We are 4-5 years away from paying off our current home. Now we are looking at living in a 2 bedroom apartment and slowing working towards buying a much smaller home.
Americans overstate the importance of size. Why would you want to spend so much time cooped up inside anyway, when you live in one of the most beautiful places on Earth? Spend time at the beach, bush walking, on the harbour, at a national park, going to Uluru or Kakadu.
I love my current employer but I do know that things can change at any time. If my role changes or if I want to leave I can find a great job very quickly in MN because of my network but that is not going to happen in Australia.
Build a network in Australia :). More seriously, it is a risk, but life is full of them. This is a pretty small one, IMHO.
At the age of 43 it is a bit daunting to start life again as an immigrant in a new country.
True, this is harder. Your children will be fine and will be a big avenue of new friends. You'll need to work harder than you probably do now to build relationships. You'll need to try harder to have hobbies that let you, your wife, and your family meet new people. Very doable, though. We relocated over 50 people from overseas in the past 12 months and all of them managed to survive ;)
I fear that we have had 2 terrible winters in MN and I am not being rational. I am putting our financial well being at risk
I disagree. You are letting irrational fears of loss get the best of you :). What's the worst case scenario? How much would it realistically cost you to unwind this decision if it turns out to be a bad one?

I have done substantially better financially in Australia that I did in the US; I feel financial risk is much lower here for a large number of factors, especially once you become a Permanent Resident (which you'll be able to do after two years on the 457 visa).
Still don't know what we don't know and I don't have a lot of time to make our decision.
There's not much to worry about. I promise. Millions of people around the world move countries and it turns out fine. It sounds like have substantially more financial resources to draw upon than most of them do.

Actually, here's a few things:
  • The bacon here is not the same. :( It still makes me sad.
  • Many Australian houses are, especially by Minnesota standards, not well insulated. This is a legacy of "we live on the beach, we don't need no stinking insulation!" The downside is that during the winter, it can feel colder inside than outside if you're in one of those houses. And since there is often no central-heating in those poorly insulated places, it can lead to a not-fun winter. The solution is simple: be aware of the problem when looking for a place to live.
  • You'll love Australia so much that you'll never want to move home. (This has been the case for 90% of the people we've relocated over the past 6 years.)
  • The Australian tax year starts in July. So you'll be doing taxes every six months. US in January, Australian in July. (More on this below, though.)
  • Things like movies & TV shows take longer to show up here. People who care about that kind of thing usually just pirate them, though.
  • Australia is far from everywhere. The closest foreign country (New Zealand doesn't count ;)) is a 6-hour flight. South East Asia is an 8-hour flight. The west coast of the US is a 14-hour flight. Europe is a 22-hour flight.
  • Australia is a smaller market than the US or Europe. That means, for instance, that the latest mobile phone might take a few months to show up in Australia; or maybe it never makes it here at all. You won't find anything quite like Netflix. There's nothing like Amazon. There are some near-replacements for some things (like bookdepository.co.uk) but not all. Yet life goes on despite all of that :)
  • The way mobile phone companies price things is weird and beyond human understanding :).
  • Internet is expensive compared to most of the world and slow compared to most of the world.
  • Television in general is pretty dire here. Easy solution: spend more time with your family outside instead :)
Not quite sure what happens to our 401K's, IRA and kids education 529 plans. We may come back to US in a few years but it is hard to know what will happen in future.
You stop putting money in them. They keep growing. If you are still here in 14 years (i.e. when the 529 matters) or 20 years (when the 401k matters) you'll have to figure it out then. But a lot can change in tax law over 20 years.
My kids get to experience a new culture/country when they are young
Also YOU (and your wife) get to experience a new culture/country. (Granted, Australia is about as close to American culture as you can get aside from Canada, so you're pretty unlikely to suffer from culture shock.) Other positives for you:
  • You'll see how simple the Australian tax system is and spend the rest of your life wondering why Americans complicate it so much.
  • You'll see how modern Australian banking is and wonder why America is such a backwards country.
  • You'll see how a federal election can happen in two or three weeks and wonder why it takes America nine months to do the same.
  • You'll wonder how you ever survived without 4-weeks of legally mandated holiday and enjoy the extra time with your family.
  • You'll get some of the best Asian, seafood, beef, and lamb in the world.
  • You'll finally understand [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] cricket is all about.
  • You'll discover that Fosters is not actually Australian for beer.
  • You'll learn all kinds of cool new words like schooner and laneway and bludger.
  • You'll see how Superannuation works and wonder why the 401(k) system is so backwards and broken.
Weather in Sydney and close access to beach sounds amazing.
This is definitely true :). In Sydney we complain when it gets to 50 degrees and everyone puts on their winter jackets, wears scarves and hats, etc.
Seems to me that folks have better work life balance in Australia than US
On average, yes. Everyone in Australia gets 4 weeks holiday. That's federal law. It is moving towards more of an American work ethic, which is a tragedy, but still fairly far off thankfully.
Topic Author
newkidontheblock
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by newkidontheblock »

Yes I will be on the work visa. I will have the option to apply for Permanent residence but I will not do that until I am sure we will live there.
Quality of life is the primary reason for considering this change. If I was just looking at financial side of things this move will not make sense.
Slower pace of life will be awesome. Seems like education system is reasonable. We will have pay tuition even in public schools. We can avoid the tuition by applying for permanent residence. I read that Catholic schools are reasonably priced. We are not catholic but as a boglehead I will consider catholic school if it saves money.

I learned that they have their own 401K like program but US does not recognize that so there is no pretax advantage in US taxes.
I don't plan to buy a home there but the home mortgage interest is not deductible in Australia but will be deductible in US taxes.
Tax year is not the same as calendar year.

perhaps I will write a book about this experience.
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500Kaiser
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by 500Kaiser »

We moved to ireland a couple of years ago from the U.S. with our school age children. Some general advice.

Consider whether you want the adventure and the cultural experience more so than maintaining a similar standard of living. People get by with much less than we might be used to in the U.S. and this can be a good thing to teach your children.

Pursue whether an intra company transfer is possible and what relocation assistance policies your employer does and does not have, whether they are likely to change, and whether they help with a return.

If you want the experience, things like driving, food, weather, etc. all work themselves out. If you want to replicate what you have in the U.S., you are setting youself up to be disappointed.

Consider how much you will miss your extended family. Skype and stuff is great, but it is not even close to being a substitute. Not to be taken lightly, especially with grandkids/grandparents. But, if they are willing and interested to travel and visit, it can be a wonderful to evolve the relationships.

We are absolutely thrilled for the experience, and have learned so much about ourselves, the world, other cultures. It is kinda like being a boglehead investor, you need to be committed, and keep in mind your bigger objectives when the tougher days roll around. But the overall experience can be absolutely outstanding. Good Luck!
Higher risk = higher HOPEFUL returns, not expected returns.
Valuethinker
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

scone wrote:Hello, I'm married to an Australian/U.K. dual citizen, and I've been over to Oz a bit, visiting. We will be spending part of the year down under after we retire-- Australia is a wonderful place. So I have some random thoughts, FWIW.

The biggest issues out there are the cultural differences, and especially the subtle cultural differences that won't show up until you stick your foot in your mouth or do something that's "not done" in Australia. This is a little hard to describe because the Aussies like to think of themselves as very modern and easygoing, and they aren't necessarily going to correct you at every turn.

The first impression you might get is of "British colonials in California." Like taking the crew of the Bounty and dumping them off in San Diego circa 1965. Surf's up! But it's not really like that anymore-- it's extremely diverse, much more so than America. Everyone has to go along to get along, because it's an island and because the Euro-Australians are now a smaller part of a large empty country off the coast of Southeast Asia.

Another thing about Aussies is their intense egalitarianism. There is an expression called "tall poppy syndrome." That is, "the tall poppy gets cut down." If you show off, you will be quietly undermined. There is a very strong feeling of "all lads together" and you had better not come across as bossy, even if you are the boss. The pub culture is part of this. I have never met an Australian teetotaler.

For the Aussies, the Queen of England is the Queen of Australia. Don't diss her. And never joke about Gallipoli unless you want your face rearranged.

Aussies are not prudes. Television will sometimes show the full monty during the day. Some beaches are clothing optional. This is especially true of Sydney. Aussies generally don't like those who try to lecture them on morals-- that person is a "wowser," and not held in high esteem.

The people are quite urbanized. Once you get out beyond the urban growth boundary, there are very few people at all. That's partly due to environmental concerns, and lack of water. They are very wrapped up in environmental issues, and there's a lot of conflict with the commodity resource extraction industries as a result. It's a bit like the American Far West in that respect. And that reminds me of the Aborigines. They are many nations, like the Native Americans here. Some of the issues are similar, but don't imagine they are identical. If you want some insight, Australian independent films are a pretty good place to start.

More than anything else, be humble-- don't be an "ugly American." Our policies are perceived very differently overseas, and while Aussies are our allies, they are "ambivalent allies." In fact there is a book of that title, if you're interested.

But if you read nothing else, do read The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes. It's the best primer I have found.
I would agree with all of this, having worked with many Australians in the UK, and a few things:

- Republicanism is quite strong in Australia. It breaks down by political lines, Liberals (ie conservatives) tend to be more pro monarchy, Labour tends to be anti monarchy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Whitlam

gives you the background to Australian Republicanism. There is a story (which will not die) that MI6 (British Intelligence) and the CIA colluded to get Whitlam replaced. Whether that is paranoid conspiracy theory or not is hard to judge, but certainly the CIA at that time did play an unhealthy role in the politics of several countries (Chile, Italy etc.).

Her Majesty the Queen may be popular, but the institution of British Monarchy less so.

- remember Australian troops fought in Vietnam alongside US troops. And Australians have mixed feelings about General Douglas Macarthur. Long before Guadacanal (which was a USMC/ USN operation not under Macarthur's control) the Australians fought the Japanese to a standstill in some of WW2's most savage fighting in Papua New Guinea. So Australians are proud (and touchy) about their role fighting for the British Empire in WW1 and WW2, and with the Americans in WW2 and Vietnam. Also Australian special forces have been in Afghanistan (I believe without checking).

The general advice to avoid loud and ugly Americanism is well taken. Conversely you may encounter (I certainly do in the UK, being mistaken for an American) that 'chip' about everything the US has done.

- Australians are sports mad-- playing it or watching it. It will help you if you get into their sports and are able to discuss them. Your kids had better be into sports because all Australian kids seem to do after school sport.

- they don't in general work as hard as Americans. When they hit quitting time, they go home and forget about work. Holidays are longer, and 'doing a walkabout' and taking an extended trip to say Europe before or after university, and then again in late middle age, is not uncommon. They are the world's great backpackers whether close to home in Thailand and Bali etc. or anywhere in Europe and Asia.

Backyard BBQs are the staple of their society. As the other poster says, they really do drink-- to a level that most North Americans just do not do (it's kind of like what you see in Mad Men or films of 1950s America).

- compared to America it is still a relatively sexist country. And quite a macho one.

- their North is the North American south. ie Queensland is kind of their Georgia or Alabama relative to Sydney which is very pluralistic and liberal or Melbourne which is quieter, more intellectual (more stuck up a Sydneysider would say). Adelaide is off in its own world (kind of an Australian San Diego or Napa Valley I guess). Perth is closer to Singapore than to Sydney-- it's a place of enormous resource wealth and quite isolated. Tasmania is isolated both physically and mentally.

If we said Melbourne was Boston and Syndey was New York City (or San Francisco to Sydney's Los Angeles) I think that might catch some of the flavour.

I have heard (from a woman from Adelaide who lived in the UK and then Sydney) that Sydney suburbs can be terribly materialistic. I think that's partly a symptom of the boom they have been through. She is much happier now in Melbourne.

- the most conservative Australians, such as their Prime Minister, often come from working class Catholic backgrounds. In fact he's your classic Australian-- often blunt and dismissive, macho (ex boxer), his treatment of the opposition party leader at the time (a woman) included outright disrespect in the Parliament-- he's no fan of women's rights. He's also extremely intelligent (Rhodes Scholar ie Oxford graduate) and determined. Australians are often like this: a superficial very blokey and crude exterior concealing high intelligence and drive. Mel Gibson isn't a bad example either: very religious, clearly quite talented and driven. (most Australians aren't religious in a going to church sense, but the country was settled by English and Irish and the Irish brought conservative catholicism with them).

- Australia I think has more poisonous spiders and reptiles than any other continent in the world. You learn to be careful-- eg emptying your shoes out before you put them on.

- it's not politically correct in the way the US or Canada is. People will say things about Aboriginal peoples that our grandparents might have said about North American Indians. Ditto assertions I have heard from older Australians about 'new Australians' ie non white. It's an immigrant society but not everyone is comfortable with that-- I think it has the highest proportion of foreign born people in the world (from memory: Australia is about 30%, Canada about 20%, US about 15%).

The flipside of the very macho side of Australian life, and women definitely don't have the respect professionally that they do in North America, is that Australian women are also tough (the former PM Julia Gillard a classic example) and stick together. I've seen Australian women form fantastic close bonds with each other and British women-- what can make Australian men at first overbearing also makes the women strong.

- Sydney sprawls, and my brother's remark was that it lacked the transportation infrastructure (highways etc.) of a comparable North American city of that size. So where you live vs. where you work matters a lot, because getting to and fro is hard (there is commuter rail).

- Australia has some of the most overvalued residential real estate in the world. The financial crash hardly hit home (economy is slowing down now with China). The most overvalued cities in the world now are usually listed as Sydney, Melbourne, Vancouver, Toronto, Singapore. This is taking prices relative to rents or incomes. The Economist (amongst others) publishes tables.

The Australian dollar is on a high and so is the housing market. As China cools down, like Canada (a country I know much better), I think both these things will drop, so your AUD won't go as far for those trips home. If you run the charts over the last 25 or so years, the AUD has been worth a lot fewer USD at time. I am not a person who believes 'this time it's different'.

- they still have powerful trade unions in some parts of the society and they still do things that are almost unknown in the UK and USA (like pull big strikes)

- Australians have a personality which is immediately familiar if you know East End Londoners (Cockneys). It's partly 'tall poppies' and cutting them down to size. It's a tendency to take a swing at anyone new or different or that they think is putting himself above them. They are loud and blunt (and can be offensive with the put downs) in a way that most Americans just are not (especially not people in places like Minnesota). And very fond of teasing-- the sort of straight as an arrow Canadian or I suspect Minnesotan earnestness is just a soft target for them. Be prepared to be made fun of in ways that an American just would not do to someone he did not know well.

Once you get through that they can be really engaging because they really value 'mateship' and they can be quite honest and direct.

- in a lot of ways Australians are spoiled suburbanites just like North Americans or British. But never underestimate their toughness, which showed up in Papua New Guinea. Or watch a game of Australian rules football. In its heart, there is still a touch of the frontier people there and they have a mental and physical toughness which shows up.

-compared to the US you will find most things more expensive (because they are imported from a long way away and there is a small and less competitive domestic market). Especially I suspect things like clothes. Cars and consumer durables. Gasoline. Food will be similar in price, meat actually cheaper. And of course travel to Asia will be cheaper. You really want to exploit the opportunity to see as much of Australia as you can, as well as New Zealand (a must see, one of the world's most beautiful countries) and also Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia etc.

- I recommend consuming as much Australian cinema as you can. Classics like

- Picnic at Hanging Rock
- Gallipoli (good study of mateship)
- Breaker Morant (about Australia's role in the Boer War in South Africa and being sold out by the Brits)
- The Year My Voice Broke (growing up in small town Australia in the 60s)
- Flirting (sequel - the hero goes to boarding school)

there's probably better ones. The TV soaps 'Neighbours' and 'Home and Away' capture something of Australian life in the 1990s (sort of their versions of 'Knots Landing').

And I can't resist one more 'The Sullivans' was a historical soap opera/ serial about Australia during the terrible 1930s (with the collapse of farming prices the country staggered on the edge of starvation and bankruptcy) and then the wartime 1940s, where the Australians were front and centre in North Africa, Greece, Singapore (where they were sacrificed) and then the South Pacific. I have never seen a North American nor British show that so managed to capture the spirit of a time and place.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

I should say: if it's just about the weather then move somewhere warmer in the USA. You'll save yourself all the cultural and other issues of living 10,000 miles from home.

If it is about life change and an adventure, then living in Oz will be a real adventure. One you won't regret. Amazing place, great people, with access to New Zealand and Asia. Financially hard to call, but just as an experience-- you only get to live life once.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by cheese_breath »

AlohaJoe wrote:...
[*] You'll finally understand [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] cricket is all about.
And if you like sports you'll come to love Aussie Rules footy more than American football. The Swans are a good team, won the Grand Final (equivalent of our Super Bowl) two years ago. The Giants are a new team but should improve over time.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by joe8d »

You'll learn all kinds of cool new words like schooner and laneway and bludger.
Also know what a "Fortnight " is ( 2 weeks).
All the Best, | Joe
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Post by pinecrest »

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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by dgdevil »

You should see the rotten carcasses of the kangaroos and wallabies!

OP, btw, everyone swims in Australia. It is unAustralian not to. Your kids will get excellent instruction.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Watty »

I have a technical sales job...

This job is in Australia opening at a time when there are a lot of opportunities brewing so making the sales quota will be much easier than my current region.
One of the problems with doing business in Australia is that it only has roughly the same population as the greater Los Angeles area so you need to be careful that you don't overestimate the business potential there even though it is a large country.

I have heard a CEO mention that he had an Australian division but not a Los Angeles division, he was frustrated that all the extra overheard made it hard to be real profitable there.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by LadyGeek »

sesq wrote:
newkidontheblock wrote: We are US citizens so we may still have to US taxes for any income over 90K.
Don't let the tax tail wag the dog. There are foreign tax credits that are designed to put you no worse off. There may be a bit of leakage but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Australia has a wonderful climate and I really liked the people in my too brief visit. Life is for the living, you should definitely try for it.
There may be other tax complications. See: Taxation as a US person living abroad
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by angelescrest »

What a thread. Op, it's not an easy decision by any means, but if this doesn't help you find your way, then nothing will. I have to stop reading or else I'll start applying for jobs in Sydney.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by dgdevil »

boroc7 wrote:I have to stop reading or else ...
... I'll just keep drinking all weekend.
Topic Author
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by newkidontheblock »

This is an amazing thread and this is an awesome community. I can't name another place where I folks are so willing to share their experiences.

Thanks
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Pacific »

sesq wrote:
newkidontheblock wrote: We are US citizens so we may still have to US taxes for any income over 90K.
Don't let the tax tail wag the dog. There are foreign tax credits that are designed to put you no worse off. There may be a bit of leakage but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Australia has a wonderful climate and I really liked the people in my too brief visit. Life is for the living, you should definitely try for it.
$99,200 is the foreign earned income tax exclusion for 2014.

Be sure to check and see if Australian banks will allow a US citizen to open an account now that the FATCA will be enbforced.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Pacific »

And thanks to Aloha Joe and ValueThinker for two of the most interesting posts I have read. And, don't forget to watch out for the irukandji while the kids are swimming. Or the great whites. Or the Taipan. Or the funnel-web spider. Or the . . .
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Pacific »

Aloha Joe said:
Internet is expensive compared to most of the world and slow compared to most of the world.
But, some good news today on a related subject:
http://www.techspot.com/news/55760-aust ... owest.html
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

One thing AlohaJoe missed which is (I think) true:

- the Australians really did do the metric thing. Not the British/ Canadian 'we are metric but we don't use it' (people here still weigh themselves in *stone* for Heaven's sake). But genuinely young Australians don't know what a degree Fahrenheit or a pound or a mile are. At least that is my impression.

I would reemphasize what AlohaJoe said about insulation and about central heating (total lack thereof). It's one of the biggest complaints I have heard from people who went out there. Be careful what you rent.

His point about not moving too far into the suburbs is germane. This happens in the UK too-- you find your work colleagues go off to the far flung points of the compass in their commutes home, and so you don't build up much social life. Meanwhile where you live, people have their own lives and it's hard to break in.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by JoMoney »

pinecrest wrote:...On second thought, forget about trying to see the camels. :(
There are still plenty of wild (and captive) camels in the outback... for some places they're a celebrated part of tradition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMldyZ7MbX4
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by scone »

Just a couple things I forgot. In and around Sydney, there are many little islands, bays, and inlets, so people have small boats. I always thought the ideal life would be a little shack out around Woy Woy, commuting in via your "tinnie." The fishing is very good, BTW, but don't clean your fish in the water, as it attracts sharks.

Nature can be misleading. There are tiny spiders that can kill you, and one called The Huntsman that's the size of your hand, yet harmless. My husband picked up a leech on a dry mountain trail. The birds can sound like machine guns or musical saws. Only the snakes are reliable-- they will kill you. Throw away your expectations.

Sydney and Melbourne have this long standing rivalry like Boston and New York. It's not just sports, it's like Sydney is the pretty sister, and Melbourne is the smart hipster sister.

There's a pretty cool art scene-- I don't mean beachy tourist art, I mean real world class stuff.

If you don't play sports, you might as well not exist. Australians play sport, they don't just sit back and watch. They tend to be fit.

There is tea. Endless tea. Also this disgusting stuff called Vegemite.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

scone wrote:Just a couple things I forgot. In and around Sydney, there are many little islands, bays, and inlets, so people have small boats. I always thought the ideal life would be a little shack out around Woy Woy, commuting in via your "tinnie." The fishing is very good, BTW, but don't clean your fish in the water, as it attracts sharks.

Nature can be misleading. There are tiny spiders that can kill you, and one called The Huntsman that's the size of your hand, yet harmless. My husband picked up a leech on a dry mountain trail. The birds can sound like machine guns or musical saws. Only the snakes are reliable-- they will kill you. Throw away your expectations.

Sydney and Melbourne have this long standing rivalry like Boston and New York. It's not just sports, it's like Sydney is the pretty sister, and Melbourne is the smart hipster sister.
Although old, the travel writer Jan Morris on Sydney and Melbourne I found quite perceptive.
There's a pretty cool art scene-- I don't mean beachy tourist art, I mean real world class stuff.

If you don't play sports, you might as well not exist. Australians play sport, they don't just sit back and watch. They tend to be fit.
Except middle aged Australian blokes run to fat ;-) (stereotype alert ;-).
There is tea. Endless tea. Also this disgusting stuff called Vegemite.
I think they beat even the Irish as drinkers per capita of tea. In fact in working class Australia 'tea' was lambchops and tea, eaten at 4pm when they came home from the mines, factories or fields.

Vegemite? You have to have Australian genetic material to like it. It's a test they use to screen out imposters ;-).
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by dgdevil »

scone wrote:They tend to be fit.
You're too kind!
scone wrote:Also this disgusting stuff called Vegemite.
Almost as disgusting as peanut butter + jelly
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by jlawrence01 »

A few points to consider about accepting any international move:

1) You will need to sell MOST of your possessions as the cost of moving them that distance is prohibitive. That means taking a loss for the most part. It will be very difficult to manage properties from 10,000 miles away.

2) Do you have an exit strategy? It is one thing to accept a corporate position for 2-4 years with a guaranteed position in the US at the end of the stint. It is completely different having to worry about coming home should you decide that Australia is not to your liking.

3) You will miss most of your extended family functions. Trips home are lengthy and generally infrequent. Last minute trips home are very costly.

4) In most global companies, Australia is not as assignment that will get you a lot of attention for future advancement.

I do NOT want to rain on the parade. However, it is important to go into these situations with your eyes wide open.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

Lordy I shouldn't forget.

Not only were the Australians front and centre of every campaign 1940-1943, tooth and nail against the Germans and then the Japanese... sea, air and land.

they were also bombed-- heavily in one place. Darwin in the Northern Territories was hit a number of times.

New Zealand actually took a higher percentage of casualties relative to population, but Australia was a front line country-- the Japanese toyed with invading it, and who knows, had the battles of Coral Sea and Midway not gone against them, they might have.

Probably worth reading up about Ned Kelly and Waltzing Matilda... although the latter is not the official National Anthem, I think it counts as the unofficial one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltzing_M ... cal_lyrics
Typical lyrics

There are no "official" lyrics to "Waltzing Matilda" and slight variations can be found in different sources.[20] This version incorporates the famous "You'll never catch me alive said he" variation introduced by the Billy Tea company.[16] Paterson's original lyrics referred to "drowning himself 'neath the coolibah tree".[21]
The original manuscript of "Waltzing Matilda", transcribed by Christina Macpherson c. 1895.

"Waltzing Matilda"
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0:00
Tune for "Waltzing Matilda"
Problems playing this file? See media help.

Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong
Under the shade of a coolibah tree,
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled:
"Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me?"

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled:
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me."

Down came a jumbuck to drink at that billabong.
Up jumped the swagman and grabbed him with glee.
And he sang as he shoved that jumbuck in his tucker bag:
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me."

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me",
And he sang as he shoved that jumbuck in his tucker bag:
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me."

Up rode the squatter, mounted on his thoroughbred.
Down came the troopers, one, two, and three.
"Whose[N 1] is that [N 2] jumbuck you've got in your tucker bag?
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me."

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me",
"Whose is that jumbuck you've got in your tucker bag?
You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me."

Up jumped the swagman and sprang into the billabong.
"You'll never take me alive!" said he
And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong:
"Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me?"

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me",
And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong:
"Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda, with me?"

Jump up ^ sometimes "Where's"
Jump up ^ sometimes "Whose the jolly"
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by cheese_breath »

Valuethinker wrote:
scone wrote:
....
If you don't play sports, you might as well not exist. Australians play sport, they don't just sit back and watch. They tend to be fit.
Except middle aged Australian blokes run to fat ;-) (stereotype alert ;-).
There is tea. Endless tea. Also this disgusting stuff called Vegemite.
....
Vegemite? You have to have Australian genetic material to like it. It's a test they use to screen out imposters ;-).
But when the blokes get too old or fat to play they become fanatic barracking for their favorite (favourite) teams.

Tried Vegemite once. It's not as bad as it's alleged to be, but I wouldn't want to try it again.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by cheese_breath »

Valuethinker wrote:...
Probably worth reading up about Ned Kelly and Waltzing Matilda... although the latter is not the official National Anthem, I think it counts as the unofficial one...
Up until a few years ago they used to sing Waltzing Matilda before every Grand Final. Now they do the National Anthem. I can't fault them for that, but I still miss the traditional Matilda.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

cheese_breath wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:...
Probably worth reading up about Ned Kelly and Waltzing Matilda... although the latter is not the official National Anthem, I think it counts as the unofficial one...
Up until a few years ago they used to sing Waltzing Matilda before every Grand Final. Now they do the National Anthem. I can't fault them for that, but I still miss the traditional Matilda.
Perhaps an unfortunate sign that Australia is 'growing up' as a country: aka taking itself too seriously with too much pomposity and due decorum. Like other countries.

Take a long time for that to feed down to the man in the street though ;-).
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by Valuethinker »

jlawrence01 wrote:A few points to consider about accepting any international move:

1) You will need to sell MOST of your possessions as the cost of moving them that distance is prohibitive. That means taking a loss for the most part. It will be very difficult to manage properties from 10,000 miles away.

2) Do you have an exit strategy? It is one thing to accept a corporate position for 2-4 years with a guaranteed position in the US at the end of the stint. It is completely different having to worry about coming home should you decide that Australia is not to your liking.

3) You will miss most of your extended family functions. Trips home are lengthy and generally infrequent. Last minute trips home are very costly.

4) In most global companies, Australia is not as assignment that will get you a lot of attention for future advancement.

I do NOT want to rain on the parade. However, it is important to go into these situations with your eyes wide open.
They are very good points-- they apply to all international moves of course, but Australia especially. Particularly the point about 'career backwater'. Australia is generally too far from Asia to count as part of the Asian market.

I had a mental image (but I've never checked) that the price of getting a container load of stuff to Australia was not overwhelming.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by angelescrest »

jlawrence01 wrote:A few points to consider about accepting any international move:

1) You will need to sell MOST of your possessions as the cost of moving them that distance is prohibitive. That means taking a loss for the most part. It will be very difficult to manage properties from 10,000 miles away.
In my experience it's not that costly. My parents, and other friends, have done it countless times. In many cases the job covers it. Many of them also choose to leave items in self-storage. There is a total of 21 sq. ft of self-storage space in the U.S. for each household, so if you can't find a deal then you're not looking hard enough (only go with temperature/humidity controlled spaces if you care about what you're storing).
jlawrence01 wrote: 2) Do you have an exit strategy? It is one thing to accept a corporate position for 2-4 years with a guaranteed position in the US at the end of the stint. It is completely different having to worry about coming home should you decide that Australia is not to your liking.
Pretty smart thinking, but that's asking a lot if the strategy is a detailed plan. I'm not sure everyone has an exit strategy for when they take a job in another part of the country. Why is Australia so different? If you have good work experience in those years, and are building up your resume/CV, I don't see how it makes you less competitive. Since I think it's the same company you'd be working with, I'd be even less concerned.
jlawrence01 wrote: 3) You will miss most of your extended family functions. Trips home are lengthy and generally infrequent. Last minute trips home are very costly.
This will likely be the hardest part about being away with kids, though it's better now than ever before. Most of my peers reserve their miles for those last minute trips due to unplanned events (death in family, etc), as you can save a fortune than if you had to pay outright in cash.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by angelescrest »

Internet is expensive compared to most of the world and slow compared to most of the world.
This is exactly what is said of the U.S.
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Re: Moving from midwest to Australia

Post by angelescrest »

pinecrest wrote:It's Saturday, February 22, 6:35 pm Sydney time.

Skippy is waiting for dinner.
Apparently animals across the globe know how to train their human owners. Good on ya, Skippy! :happy
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