How to fight work place bullying

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newkidontheblock
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How to fight work place bullying

Post by newkidontheblock »

My wife switched jobs this year. She was stressed at her previous job and was working long hours. In her field working long hours is typical.
She was doing very well in her old job but wanted change after working there for 7 years.
Many people said bad things about her new employer when they heard she was going there.
She was a bit surprised at the negative things but went ahead and accepted the job.
The person who hired her left in the first month. Her next manager was never around but this was fine by her.
She is a good worker and can work without a lot of direction.
Unfortunately her 2nd manager moved to a new role and she got her current manager.
This person seemed to be known in and out of the company for being a mean. Folks used the term mentally disturbed. They told her that she will run her over.
My wife found that her most people in her team were long term employees of her company.
There was no collaboration in the team or between teams. Everybody was out to get everybody. Folk threw others under the bus in front of their face.
Her current manager turned out be the worst manager and human being she has ever experienced.
Keep in mind that her role had "Principle in the title". This is the highest individual contributor role in the company.
Here are a few things here manager did:
1. She asked my wife to keep her copied in on every email she sent
2. Told her that she cannot go to a meeting without her
3. Moved her cube to be next to her
4. Still complained that she did not know what my wife was working on.
5. Other folks in her team were meeting her manager daily for her guidance
6. Most of the tasks she was given provided no directions, nobody to help, not much time to complete them. My wife does not give up but she was surprised at lack of support for new employees and lack of any defined process and documentation.
7. Her manager criticizes everything my wife has done. Yells at her in public. Talks about her with others when my wife is sitting in her cube which is next to her managers cube.
8. My wife is working 7 days a week. She has daycare pickup at 5:00 so she leaves work at 4:15 and this has been a problem. She works every night. Her manager is in her mid fifties and has older kids so she has no empathy for a working mom or human beings in general. She has made comments like "I wish there were no people in this world". Can you believe that she is in people management role?
9. Everybody who knows her manager knows she is not fit for a manager role. They see this daily bullying but nobody does anything.
10. My wife constantly get asked to do something at 3:30 and it has to be done by next morning.
11. We were going on a vacation and they were asking her to work and she drew the line and said no.

She has over 10 years in the same industry and done well in every job she has had.
My wife threw in the towel and began looking for a new job. However she has not had any luck finding another job.

It has been very hard for me to see her abused, ridiculed everyday without much help. She has decided to quit in the next few weeks even if she does not have a new job lined up.
I am very supportive of this. She feels bad that it will affect our family finances and I have assured her that we will be fine.
She feels that she is a quitter and it is hard for her to give up. She also fears that if she quits before finding another job the new employers will pay her even less than she is currently making.
They will question why she quit after 10 months on a job.

I asked her to look at other roles in the same company but after seeing how this company operates she is not sure she wants to keep on working for this employer.
She also has to inform her manager that she is interviewing for another role and that will make things very difficult.
We considered talking to Human Resources but most of the time Human Resources are there to protect the company and not an employees.
It is tough to win a dispute with a manager. Most of the abuse is verbal and everybody knows about this but nobody is doing anything.
She hasn't collected any documentation to prove the hostile work environment she has experienced.
Since she does not want to stay at this employer she is not eager to involve HR.
Should she say something to HR in her exit interview?
How does this help her and the whole work environment seems messed up?

Our two young kids and my wife have suffered as a result of this. I am so angry that I want to fight back but I want to respect my wife's wishes and do whatever I can to support her.
Have you experienced anything like this? This is a global company that all of your have heard about. How is this company able to create good products? The culture seems toxic.

Let us know if you have any suggestion for us. I am looking for things I can tell my wife that will put her at ease and help her leave this place without feeling stressed about quitting and family finances.


Thanks
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

This is a difficult situation. I think your wife should try to find another position in the current company while looking for an outside job. She may try to talk to other managers informally to see if there is a good fit in other divisions. As a reason for the transfer she could say that her current position is not a very good fit and she wants to find a position where she could provide the greatest contributions to the company. As a new employee she has some leeway in looking for a place where she could do her best.

Victoria
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Andyrunner
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Andyrunner »

newkidontheblock wrote:Should she say something to HR in her exit interview?
How does this help her and the whole work environment seems messed up?
Problem is this manager is probably known for her tactics but also known for productivity. Even if HR wants to do the honest and best thing for your wife, upper management will shut them up because the manager gets things done.

Unless your wifes new job will take her no matter what I wouldn't say anything. She is looking out for herself not the future of the company she is leaving. Chances are HR knows about this.

Also just as a backup, I would have your wife note anything the manager said that could be considered assault or degrading. Probably won't need it but you never know.

To help put your wife at ease, remind her that you guys have an emergency fund if she quites with no job lined up. Emergency funds are there for this reason.

Also on the toxic culture: Read case studies on Enron, their management style was seen the same way. Bullying tactics got things done.
MathWizard
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by MathWizard »

Assuming you can afford not having her working, my advice to her would be to start a
job search immediately and not to tell the employer anything.

Set a time limit and if she had not found anything by then, leave. I would normally say
give 2 weeks notice, but it sounds like that place does not deserve even that courtesy.

The worst thing that they could do is fire her, and she is leaving anyway.

My wife took a job like that, even when she knew that this company was known to have
50% turnover each year. (There were a few long-term employees, the rest were treated like
livestock.) She stuck it out for 9 months, staying with them through their busiest months,
then gave 2 weeks notice.

She had started and run her own small business before selling the business (6am to 10pm
6 days a week was too much) and going to work for them in her late 30's, but this company
shook her confidence. Your wife's experience does sound similar, one partner (the one nice one)
hired her, then she was re-assigned to another partner. The other partners probably know that
nobody wants to work for them.

I would say run, do not walk, away from this company.

I wish that I would have known what was going to happen, I would have talked her out of
joining the company.
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Dutch
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Dutch »

Standing up for yourself is usually good advice when it comes to male bullying. With female bullying I honestly have no idea.

It sounds like changing the situation will not work, so changing jobs would be the only option. An internal transfer or a different job elsewhere.

Easier said then done.
killjoy2012
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by killjoy2012 »

Most large companies have their share of these types of poor leaders / managers:

- Don't go to HR now. If she wants to say something during an exit interview - fine, but not before. HR is not on your wife's side.
- If your wife has determined that enough is enough, then focus on finding another job... internally or externally. That's the out - not HR.
- Be careful with throwing around the phrase "hostile work environment". That has a certain legal meaning. I'm not a lawyer, but what you describe is likely not a HWE. Just a sh*tty one.
- I wouldn't quit before finding another job, if at all possible. That's only going to harm the job search, and your income. Instead adjust the work/life balance more towards life and let them put her on a PIP, etc. if it comes to that. Hopefully she'll be out there before any of that happens.

You didn't say what field your wife works in, but many of the things you list as grievances are common in certain fields. e.g. IT is well known for long hours, work-a-holics, working 6-7 days, etc. That doesn't excuse the micromanagement and some of the other issues. Where i work, if your wife is leaving at 4:15p everyday, she better be in the office and working by 7am. And I worked 2 10 hours days this week on my "vacation" days. But, again, this varies by field/industry/pay grade.
Last edited by killjoy2012 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

Dutch wrote:Standing up for yourself is usually good advice when it comes to male bullying. With female bullying I honestly have no idea.
I have read somewhere that men bully both men and women, whereas women bully only other women. Thus, when a woman reports another woman as a bully, male managers may not believe her or assume that both sides are somehow responsible.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
Mingus
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Mingus »

Dutch wrote:Standing up for yourself is usually good advice when it comes to male bullying. With female bullying I honestly have no idea.
Tread lightly with female bully bosses. Any standing up to them they will view as a challenge. You don't mess with momma bear.

Bi polar male bosses are pretty bad too.

A bad boss male or female is a terrible work environment.
nordlead
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by nordlead »

It took 3 employees quiting and multiple people giving strong negative reviews before upper management stopped protecting the one bully we had. He wasn't even a manager. He just did what he wanted and none of his managers could stop him. I even asked the Software group manager why he didn't fire him and he said he couldn't. In fact, the bully's direct manager almost lost his job because the upper management thought it was the direct managers fault for not controlling the bully.

At my company there is never a problem going to the top group manager and telling him my problems. If the company has the right kind of culture I'd just go 1-2 managers up (whoever you feel comfortable talking to and is appropriate). I always had emails or direct examples to back my claim. It did no good at the time, but it felt good. I ended up getting lucky and got transfered to a different group without a direct request, but I made it clear I didn't want to return.

He is now on a 1 strike and out policy, as management realizes we can't afford to lose employees at the same rate we hire them, and that no one wants to go work in the group he is in. The funny thing about this guy, is he is nice, so long as you aren't discussing work. As soon as it gets to work you are an idiot and he is the only one with a brain.

So, I have no applicable advise other than try to be nice and learn to roll with the punches and hope there is a culture change or a transfer. Or find a new job and then quit. If enough people do the latter then it might just fix the environment for everyone else.
billern
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by billern »

While I'm generally all for honesty, I'm not sure that even disclosing this issue on an exit interview is a good idea. It might come back to bite you next time you need a referral.

From the actions of this person, it seems clear to me that HR and management are aware of this situation. Why put your future at risk by bringing it up when you leave?
RebusCannébus
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by RebusCannébus »

It may be helpful for your wife to keep a private diary of all the offenses, indignities, and abuses she suffers. Some possible benefits:

1. Seeing in writing how shabbily (or not) she's being treated will make for a wiser decision re leaving, and for greater serenity retrospectively (i.e., in case down the road she has trouble recalling how bad it was and why she left).
2. Writing can be therapeutic, although not sure there's any cure for this ailment besides leaving.
3. Can't hurt to have a written record. While it may not be prudent to recite the abuses in a job interview, writing them down will help cement the issues in her mind, so she can have voluminous facts at her fingertips--should whatever need arise.
Peter
nordlead
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by nordlead »

billern wrote:While I'm generally all for honesty, I'm not sure that even disclosing this issue on an exit interview is a good idea. It might come back to bite you next time you need a referral.

From the actions of this person, it seems clear to me that HR and management are aware of this situation. Why put your future at risk by bringing it up when you leave?
A lot of companies don't give referrals, they only confirm or deny that you worked there and held a specific position over a specific timeframe. If you can find that out it makes deciding what to do at an exit interview a lot easier.
gtz0061
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by gtz0061 »

If you wife quits voluntarily she may forfiet her unemployment compensation benefits. It appears that your wife may have a case for constructive discharge. Constructive discharge is a situation in which an employee quits because the employer intentionally made work conditions intolerable. Employees that quit due to constructive discharge have a good chance of collecting unemployment compensation benefits. Of course, with constructive discharge, the employee should notify the employer (in writing) that there is a problem and working conditionas are intolerable and then allow time for the employer to correct the situation before they quit.

Do a search on the internet for additonal information on Constructive Discharge.

Good Luck!!!!!
lrak
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by lrak »

nordlead wrote:It took 3 employees quiting and multiple people giving strong negative reviews before upper management stopped protecting the one bully we had.
Due the manager, I left a job in a very well oiled stable team I'd been in for 12 years earlier this year. As of last week, the team has lost six people with a total of 49 team/product years in 2013. That is well over half the team. Yet, upper management loves the guy. Apparently all of us who left were simply poor performers who went unnoticed by many previous bosses over the years. :oops:
killjoy2012
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by killjoy2012 »

^ Happens all the time. The phrase "It's not what you know, but who you know." comes to mind. The bad boss is probably tight his their boss, for whatever reason.
fposte
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by fposte »

The problem is that even if the boss stops bullying, she's still a micromanager and a bad manager, so I definitely would agree that it's time to go. I don't think she should assume that this is a problem more likely to repeat itself within the company than outside of it unless it's an Enron-type situation where that's the overall culture, because just about every big organization is going to have a bad manager in there somewhere, but there are obviously other complications to an internal application and I think it's absolutely fine for her to take a break and look elsewhere if you can swing it financially.

This is not what's legally meant by a "hostile work environment"--that's a workplace that's hostile for legally forbidden reasons such as race or gender. It sounds from what you say that this manager is known to be generally horrible, which isn't illegal. From what I've read, it's also not likely to rise to constructive discharge--that needs to more considerable than just a deeply unpleasant boss--but I would certainly recommend that anybody who's going to be out of work file for unemployment, because the worst thing that happens is that you don't get it and you might be successful.

If she has ten solid years in the industry, one voluntary departure really isn't likely to hurt her. These situations are so pernicious because they start making you feel helpless even if leaving would actually be a fine solution. I would imagine that she also has some good references from prior work, too.

It's been mentioned here before, but I would point her to http://www.askamanager.org, which has archives full of information and where she'll see that she's not the only one who's had to face this and that it is survivable (she can also submit it as a question there).
TRC
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by TRC »

She should "negative reverse" her manager politely, but firmly. In other words, say something to the effect of?

Mr. Manager, I get the feeling you're not happy with what I did, is that a fair statement?
Mr. Manager, I feel like you're not happy with my work, is that a safe assumption?
Mr. Manager, I get the feeling you don't value me as an employee. Is that correct?

This is ballsy, but forces them to say postiive stuff instead of negative.

She needs to stand up to the bully. Sorry she's in this situation.
sambb
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by sambb »

Sounds like it is time to move on. We have had a similar thing happen in a center in which I work. A new boss has caused 10-15 of her 60 employees to leave. But, sometimes people are chosen for roles to "clean house:". Move on. And be pleasant.
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Crimsontide
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re: how to fight work place bullying

Post by Crimsontide »

Yep, agree with most of the other posters. Time to move on. Don't go to HR, they are pretty much useless in these types of situations, that would only make things worse for your wife...
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FelixTheCat
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by FelixTheCat »

My last employer went through a tough time and they brought in outside help to educate the masses. When someone offends you, you are supposed to go to them and say it's unacceptable that they did X. For example, being yelled at in public is a no-no. This gives the offendee the chance to work things out with the offender. If after a couple attempts of talking to the offender gets you nothing, you were allowed to go to the manager's manager OR HR to get things accomplished.
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dm200
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by dm200 »

I wish that this was not true - but having dealt with similar "bad" job situations (but not quite THAT bad!), it is very rare that, at least without huge sacrifices and risks, an employee can come out the winner. Escalating such issues rarely, in my experience, resolve such issues - chances are that upper management knows what is going on and/or does not or will not care.

My only suggestion is search HARD for a new job and get away from there ASAP. When you do find another position and have an exit interview, I would only go as far as saying that she felt that her skills and capabilities were not well utilized and appreciated by the company and this manager.

Since this is a big company, is there any chance to get a transfer/promotion/move to another position and get away from this manager?
Jim127
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Jim127 »

Your wife needs to go the HR. Yes, they are there to protect the company and the company will not want to deal with a claim. Your wife is unhappy with her supervisor, not the company. If she goes to HR and HR does nothing or retaliates, your wife can actually have a claim against the company. If HR wants your wife out, they will offer her a package and ask her to sign a release. Otherwise, HR will look to make adjustments, such as moving your wife to a different position or giving her another supervisor.

When your wife meets with HR, she then needs to send a follow up email to document the meeting. That creates the paper trail and the company will have to take her seriously.
Caduceus
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Caduceus »

There must be plenty of HR professionals among us? Any thoughts from the "other" side?
Calm Man
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Calm Man »

I think your wife should quit. She's toast probably as I have seen this many times. If she is getting treated the same as everybody, well that's one thing. It sounds like she's not. I can guess why. She leaves at 4:15 and the others are there late. I know, I know, she works at home after hours but the boss doesn't care. I hate to be so blunt but HR will not defend her as others point out and believe me, the manager can show 50 things that the wife has done wrong. Anybody can on anybody.
sunnyday
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by sunnyday »

She should try to prove to her 2nd level manager that she's a great employee and is doing great work.

How many people does her manager manage? Does she nano-manage everyone? Can she team up with them and have a sit down with her manager's manager? If not, she should have a solo meeting with her 2nd-level manager and explain the specifics about how she's being nano-managed and it's affecting her work.

I would do that before quitting. If they lose enough good employees and enough people speak up, things will change.
fposte
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by fposte »

Jim127 wrote:Your wife needs to go the HR. Yes, they are there to protect the company and the company will not want to deal with a claim. Your wife is unhappy with her supervisor, not the company. If she goes to HR and HR does nothing or retaliates, your wife can actually have a claim against the company.
Can you elaborate on what basis you're seeing for a claim? Going to HR isn't a legally protected activity--it's scummy and stupid but legal for them to fire her for that if they choose. We don't have anti-bullying laws in the US, and I didn't see anything else obvious that would be a breach of labor laws.
maroon
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by maroon »

At a former workplace, several of my colleagues complained to HR about the boss, a "screamer" who was also a smart, talented fundraiser. Eventually the boss got promoted to a non-supervisory position and someone new was hired to manage daily operations. But by then I'd left for another job.

I'd suggest moving on, either to a new unit or a new organization. (I, too, would be interested to hear from HR professionals on this issue.)
stan1
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by stan1 »

Some things can be controlled, some things can be influenced, and some things are "facts of life". She can 1) adapt and smile; 2) suffer in silence; 3) fight back; 4) look for another job (inside company if it isn't too small or outside).

If I couldn't do 1) I would do 4). Life is too short to spend the day in a workplace filled with negativity that causes stress, anger, frustration, depression, or worse. Your wife needs to look out for #1: her physical and mental health, her career, her family. When those don't align with the job its time to move someplace else (inside the company or outside).
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
indexmeasap
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by indexmeasap »

In my first "real" job I faced a very difficult, incompetent female supervisor and relate to your wife's problems. I saved up my 1 year living expenses and left without anything lined up. I have no family and live the boglehead lifestyle. The employee that replaced me moved his family to the new city and lasted only a few months before walking off the job. Legend has it his wife quite her job before making the move as well. I found comfort in a fellow female employee who was around 20 years my senior who shared the same boss as me. She said "I will never work for a woman again." I am not sure if that is a PC solution.

Robert I. Sutton was written a few books on the subject of bad bosses and work place menaces. If nothing else your wife might gain some sanity back reading about other people's battle wounds.

Has anyone ever turned down a job because they knew they would be entering a similar situation? What is the most diplomatic way to ask the person who will be working for if they are sociopath or not? What is the best way to sniff out these bad workplace situations?
jridger2011
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by jridger2011 »

Since this is a finance forum and based on previous experience working with sociopaths, it's really best to leave or switch departments (if possible). It's really not worth working the extra hours to appease someone who is a bully. They're not going to thank her for it and certainly won't praise her or give a good annual review because she worked so hard. If your wife works in a high demand field, make it a high priority to find a new job, and save all her vacation days to go on these interviews.

I've witnessed cases where the bully knows that the subordinate needs the job due to work visa issues and will perform their craft well knowing this employee cannot just find a new job so easily. In both my experiences, these bosses were female.
Draak
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Draak »

It is always easier to find a new job when you have a job, so there is risk of long unemployment if she is not finding anything while already working. Can your wife call up her former employer boss & let him know she feels she made a mistake and if he ever has a position come up she would appreciate if he would think of her.

Only your wife can say if this is harming her enough that she must quit without having another job. If she can't manage herself to work 50ish hours a week only, and limit to 5 days a week, then it is probably better if she leaves. She may need a couple of months off if they have really made her feel worthless. You do not interview well if you are exhausted and have no self esteem.

How you protect against this in future places, is to know what you want in the workplace culture and state it at your interview. I like a team that works together and enjoys each others company with activities like eating lunch together a couple of days a week. I like working with a group that is helpful to training a new person. If she has to explain why she left, she will need a non-negative story. So can say she felt the culture of the other place was not what she expected and then repeat the things that she has realized are important to her. Don't bash the other company or manager, just stick to the fact that she learned that there are things she learned that she really enjoys in the workplace and wants to come to work energized and excited every day. If they press her further she should say that she should have asked them what their typical employee turnover in that group was & then that would have told her there were problems.

I worked at a large well known company with a pervasive bad environment like you describe your wife in. I left them very quickly because I felt it was harmful. As a result of that experience I will NEVER hire anyone that learned their craft at that company. If they went there for a short while, I'd still consider them for jobs, but not someone that had been there for a long time. They would be bad for any other team that actually wanted to work as a team.
Colorado14
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Colorado14 »

It sounds like you are supportive of the decision to quit and finances are in order so if your wife perceives the environment to be hostile, she should leave. I don't think that toxic bosses are uncommon, unfortunately. That doesn't mean she should have to put up with a toxic environment, however, if there are other options.

To turn something negative into a positive, if your wife wants to learn from this experience, some advice for the future is to ask the interviewer and other employees about work hours/expectations prior to accepting the next job. This might address the issue of alignment between the employer and employee's expectations regarding leaving early and/or the expectation to work 7 days a week. Also check out the parking lots at 6 pm, Friday afternoons, weekends, etc. Maybe a part time job may be a better fit for your wife's expectations/lifestyle? Sometimes the grass really is greener...
leonard
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by leonard »

Start a job search while in the current job.

HR protects the company's interest - not the employees. Going to them is useless.

Going to skip level manager - they take the managers point of view 95% of the time. In order to "convince" them, you have to get them to admit that they either made a bad promotion decision in moving the manager up OR they made an ongoing bad decision by keeping a bad manager in place. Not many are willing to do that.

Finally, organizing other employees to go to either HR or the skip level manager is going to get her labeled as a troublemaker.

The only message employers hear is turnover. She needs to find a new position asap.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
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Nuvoletta
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Nuvoletta »

I left a bullying workplace earlier this year. Two male coworkers operating together, two bystander employees on our same team who acknowledged it to me but had issues of their own to deal with, and two conflict-averse managers in a row. As a social experiment, what I find most interesting was the behavior of the bystanders and the managers. Bullying affects all and all are participating in various roles, along the lines of someone YouTubing a beating without stepping in or calling the police or a teacher. In the OP wife's case, the manager is talking in the nextdoor cube to another person(s) who is participating even by listening knowing she is in the cube nextdoor, and all those other folks who "know" about this situation including management. There are scientists who study this phenomenon in animals and they call it pecking order. For me, it is all inappropriate bullying and bullshit. Not only for the subject but also for individual health, workplace productivity, team morale, etc.

I am female and these were two guys. My two male managers failed to handle the situation and both were very open with me about how stressful they found it. Frankly, both managers were clearly just trying not to be the next in line taken down by these guys (one was the former team lead who had been demoted). Just want to mention my belief that bullying is pervasive and that I do not buy into the theory that females are any more likely to do it than males. I will agree that the bullying may generally take different forms between male and female bosses, making one more socially acceptable for our time, but I hope we will grow out of both types eventually.

Long story short, I waited too long to leave. I had valid reasons along the way and I own it. Once I decided last spring to started looking, I couldn't find a job fast enough, haha. It just seemed to take forever, but was only a few months and primarily because I chose to go public sector and their process takes so long. I took over a 10% pay cut, lost a cush office for a worn cube farm, and gained a new workplace "family" with its own primordial issues. However, I couldn't be HAPPIER. Just taking control of the situation and climbing out of the abyss was empowering in itself and did a lot to provide healing. I DO think that "leaning out" a bit away from the high expectations of the private sector is also helpful in the healing...I am resting up a bit and focusing back on my family who missed me. Oh, and add that to the cost of bullying...spousal anxiety (like the OP's and my hubbie's) plus our kids. These non-financial costs make it plain not worth sticking around. Agree with other posters on a few points:
- try to keep the job while looking, but give it up if staying becomes too high an emotional cost.
- HR is worthless, even if they seem to be validating your concerns.
- Agree with documenting (not on work computer, ideally hardcopy at home), not so much for use later, but YES that it is helpful to see one's experience in black and white to self-validate that one is being bullied and not just being "sensitive" (a classic behavior of one being bullied is to start doubting one's worth).

Best of luck, bullying sucks. It is way too common in many environments (work, school, pretty much any group, haha). Pat on back for supporting your wife!
carolinaman
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by carolinaman »

In similar situations, I have seen people be successful in going to HR. It is a calculated risk that may or may not work. However, considering the overall environment, fixing that problem may not result in a satisfactory job or work environment. It sounds like this company is very dysfunctional and a better manager may have trouble getting results from her team. IMO, the best solution is to find another job.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

Nuvoletta wrote:Just want to mention my belief that bullying is pervasive and that I do not buy into the theory that females are any more likely to do it than males. I will agree that the bullying may generally take different forms between male and female bosses, making one more socially acceptable for our time, but I hope we will grow out of both types eventually.
I think a common belief is that men engage in bullying more often than women, you have it the other way around. I agree with you that members of both genders are guilty of bullying, and that they conduct it differently.

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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by cherijoh »

I have friends who work in HR and unfortunately in situations like this HR will likely come down on the side of protecting the company. There are employment lawyers who specialize in workplace bullying. It might be useful to consult one about strategies. In the meantime document, document, document. If the lawyers think this meets the level of workplace bullying, their intervention might result in the company offering a small separation package and/or agreement not to contest your wife's application for unemployment benefits. In exchange she would probably have to sign a secrecy agreement about the terms.

In my opinion, this manager is incompetent and probably knows it. Micromanaging is often a sign of either a brand new manager or an incompetent one. Have you considered that the manager feels very threatened by your wife? You mentioned that she came in at the highest individual contributor role. If the other people on the team have been there a long time, they may be viewed as being content to stay in the role of worker bee and are less threatening to the boss. Or maybe she is being used to cow the other employees - "if you rock the boat, this can happen to you, too". In toxic environments like this one, it is quite common to not support your coworkers and only look out for yourself. This is also the case when everyone has twice as much work as they could possibly complete in the time allowed.

BTW, I believe companies are legally only allowed to confirm the dates of employment along with the job title for former employees. If you wife leaves and suspects the she is being badmouthed by the employer, there are companies you can hire to pose as a prospective employer looking for employment confirmation. They will tell you whether your former employer is complying with the law.
RobInCT
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by RobInCT »

My SO works in HR. She suggests mentioning it to HR in the exit interview, but in a neutral and fact-based way rather than in a personal and/or accusatory one. "I'm leaving because I feel the position did not afford me the degree of independence and autonomy that I expected given my job title and the responsibilities that were described to me upon my hire. For example, I was surprised to learn that I was not allowed to attend meetings by myself and was expected to copy [manager] on every piece of correspondence I sent. I feel I need to look for a position that affords me more responsibility and the opportunity to make a greater contribution to the company. There has also been a high degree of management turnover in the time since my hire, and as a result the working environment in my group is not what I would have expected at the time of my hire nor one that I think is well-suited to my skill set and preferred working style. I think it's important for my professional development to look for a job whose work environment and work responsibilities are more suited to my experience, skill set, and work style."

She says you'd be surprised what people say in exit interviews. It is true to some extent that HR is there to protect the company and not to protect the employees, but that's why fact-based accounts are more helpful than emotion-filled rants (rants that may be justified based on what has happened but leave HR with very little information about the situation other than that the employee was unhappy).

It's hard for me to see how giving specific examples of problematic behaviors and calm statements about how those behaviors affected the employee's productivity and desire to continue her employment could come back to haunt the employee in the future. Ideally, whatever is said in the exit interview would be something that could be repeated in job interviews if pressed for specifics about reasons for departure--e.g. felt the job didn't provide a level of autonomy commensurate with job title and skill set and felt skills were being underused/underdeveloped, high degree of management turnover leading to inconsistent project management and/or poorly defined project objectives.

At the end of the day, poor managers hurt the company because people who feel poorly treated do a bad job. If your wife keeps her criticism focused on why she feels the manager's management style was limiting her ability to succeed in her current position the way she would have liked and feels she is capable of instead of focusing on how the manager makes her feel, it should keep the interview from going off the rails or from having your wife dismissed as a malcontent who can't get along with others.
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dm200
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by dm200 »

I agree with you that members of both genders are guilty of bullying, and that they conduct it differently.
That has been my experience as well.

Upon thinking about this a bit more, since this is a large, national corporation - there is a possibility that going to HR about the current management bullying or abuse might help. I would not put high odds on it, but it could happen.
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by KyleAAA »

Talk to HR. It may not help, but if she's going to end up quitting anyway if things don't improve, there really isn't a downside. Besides, workplace bullying is a serious thing and HR might choose to step in to protect the company anyway. I wouldn't worry about the references thing. You aren't going to use a manager this bad as a reference anyway. Do people even check references anymore with the internet? I don't and none of the last three jobs I've gotten called any or my references. I just stopped providing them altogether and it's never been a problem. Either way, it's not something I'd worry about in this situation.
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nedsaid
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by nedsaid »

Pretty much what you have to do is confront the bully head on. There is a risk of getting fired in doing this. The problem is that if a boss gets away with bullying you then a clear signal is sent to your co-workers and you then have to deal with getting picked on by your co-workers. It gets to be open season on you.

Your wife is probably working for a terrible company. If things can't be resolved, she needs to quit. It gets to be "the bad boyfriend" or "battered spouse" syndrome. If you work for terrible people, don't make excuses for them. If you can't get things resolved, keep your self respect and quit. Move on to something better.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

What are policies about audio recording? Can the OP's wife legally record an instance of bullying and take it to the HR?

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soaring
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by soaring »

Sounds like new mgr is building a case to get rid of your wife....maybe mgr thinks then no competition around.

My wife was in similar situation about 17 yrs ago. Boss turnover three times within 18 months. Executive VP hired to cut heads. Hundreds were fired within another 18 months. Stress everywhere. Mostly middle to upper middle mgmt was cut. But before all was done at her work and with my support my wife quit and took five yrs off work which turned into being retired. Best thing for our household! Money be damned.

good luck
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by jridger2011 »

Draak wrote:It is always easier to find a new job when you have a job, so there is risk of long unemployment if she is not finding anything while already working. Can your wife call up her former employer boss & let him know she feels she made a mistake and if he ever has a position come up she would appreciate if he would think of her.

Only your wife can say if this is harming her enough that she must quit without having another job. If she can't manage herself to work 50ish hours a week only, and limit to 5 days a week, then it is probably better if she leaves. She may need a couple of months off if they have really made her feel worthless. You do not interview well if you are exhausted and have no self esteem.

How you protect against this in future places, is to know what you want in the workplace culture and state it at your interview. I like a team that works together and enjoys each others company with activities like eating lunch together a couple of days a week. I like working with a group that is helpful to training a new person. If she has to explain why she left, she will need a non-negative story. So can say she felt the culture of the other place was not what she expected and then repeat the things that she has realized are important to her. Don't bash the other company or manager, just stick to the fact that she learned that there are things she learned that she really enjoys in the workplace and wants to come to work energized and excited every day. If they press her further she should say that she should have asked them what their typical employee turnover in that group was & then that would have told her there were problems.

I worked at a large well known company with a pervasive bad environment like you describe your wife in. I left them very quickly because I felt it was harmful. As a result of that experience I will NEVER hire anyone that learned their craft at that company. If they went there for a short while, I'd still consider them for jobs, but not someone that had been there for a long time. They would be bad for any other team that actually wanted to work as a team.
I second this, when I see a company listed on someone's resume known for really bad management tactics and they've worked there for a while, I have to put into my mind what type of employee this candidate could potentially be.
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newkidontheblock
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by newkidontheblock »

Thank you so much for all your responses.
Manager is managing 3 people.
This manager used to have direct report but they were taken away. She got them back because of quick turnover of 2 managers.
Other two in the team have been around for 10 plus year. They seek out the manager twice a day for guidance. They know how to play the game better.
My wife is not wired that way. She cannot pretend to need guidance multiple times a day.
One of her coworker seems sympathetic. She told my wife that she is too nice. I think she was telling my wife to stand up for herself.
Another coworker who heard the yelling told me wife that she will get used to it.
Folks in other departments respect/value my wife more than her own team.
In meetings if any of my wife's idea is well received her manager cannot even hide her displeasure.
My wife did talk with her manager about how she felt once. Her manager did not bully her that week but went back to bullying her the very next week.
My wife does think that her manager is building a case to fire her.

When she made a decision to look for a job she wanted similar title or compensation. She did not get any interviews because she makes too much money for an individual contributor role.
Most people at her compensation level are managers. Irony is that she took $10K pay cut from her previous employer, gave up 6 week vacation to take this job as she wanted to try something new.
She is open to becoming a manager but that is tough to do when you don't have actual management experience.
Now I am encouraging her to take a job she will like more even if the compensation is $30K to $40K less.

When I initially became aware of micro managing I tried to help by giving her some helpful articles that may make it easier to deal with a micro manager.
We have 2 young kids and no family to help. That coupled with long hours at work made it impossible for her to even read those articles that could have helped her.
So at this time reading books for her is not an option. I can probably read helpful books and try to distill the learning down.

I will encourage her to look for other positions in the same company.
She has already started looking for jobs. We hope that by lowering salary expectations will open more doors.
I am also going to help her look for jobs in public sector. They typically offer less compensation but chances of work/life balance are better.
I have seen how stressed she is all the time, how she has trouble sleeping, how she dreads going to work everyday, has headaches so I am fine with her quitting and taking 2-3 months off if necessary.

She brings in 40% of our household income. But we have adequate emergency expenses saved her. I have told her numerous times that we can survive on just my income for a long time.
She is reluctant to use up our emergency savings.

I have always believed that something good comes out of bad things. "What must be end of life for a caterpillar is beginning of a new life for a butterfly".
This whole experience is making me look at how we spend money. I have switched to Ooma for phone. I am about to cut the cord and I will switch to lower price contract free cell phone provider.
We are hoping to be mortgage free in the next 5 years. I wish we were there now so she could stopped working and not tolerated this type of treatment.
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by tibbitts »

I'm lucky because I've had mostly good or excellent supervisors in my career (and I'm not just saying that because I'm using my real name for my bogleheads account.) Her time at this company is probably limited, so she should enjoy herself. Put in for lots of travel to training/conferences, etc.

Alternatively, see if she can drive the boss out. Stay late some night and take down the cubicle wall separating her and the boss, and say it's because you took that whole monitoring thing really seriously. Or have IT put cameras all around her cubicle and hang a couple of 70" monitors in the boss' cubicle so she can track what's going on with eight different views. It sounds like the possibilities for irritating this boss are endless. Just laughing at everything she says and not taking her seriously might be enough to get rid of her. As long as job loss isn't viewed as a risk, there's really nothing to lose. At least for a while, and maybe quite a while, your wife can basically do anything she wants, and get paid for it - not that bad a situation.
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frugaltype
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by frugaltype »

I had a manager like this at Adobe. I quit and took a job elsewhere. Why companies let this degree of abuse go on, I have no idea.

I had pursued the usual talk to HR, have a conference with the manager, all that stuff. Each attempt fixed stuff for about two days.

For some reason, I was the one person on the small team singled out for this crap, although several people warned those of us in the group when he took over that he was a beyond terrible manager.

Like your wife, I got to the point where I was almost sick with stress when thinking of going to work in the morning.

I told HR at the exit interview exactly why I was leaving. Did it do any good? I have no idea. The HR person acted like she had no idea this was going on, but he apparently had this reputation fairly widely in the company.

Their loss, although it was a horribly stressful situation for me.

By the way, I wound up at my previous company in a better job - is that a possibility for her?
jridger2011
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by jridger2011 »

The OP is a very supportive spouse and his wife a very tough person to put up with all this in order to not dip into emergency funds. Never view this as a failure in decision making by taking this job, it will make things better in the long run.
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by fposte »

cherijoh wrote: BTW, I believe companies are legally only allowed to confirm the dates of employment along with the job title for former employees. If you wife leaves and suspects the she is being badmouthed by the employer, there are companies you can hire to pose as a prospective employer looking for employment confirmation. They will tell you whether your former employer is complying with the law.
This is a popular belief, but there is actually no US or state law that restricts company references in this way; the only restrictions are organizational. But I agree it can be useful, if there's a question, to have a friend or somebody call and find out what's actually being said by a reference.
zelda
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by zelda »

I find Tim Field's work in workplace bullying especially helpful:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/amibeing.htm
particularly the "why me?" part on that page.

There is also a yahoo group related to that site. Some of the people there became ill from being bullied in the workplace.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/bullyonline/

It's hard to know, when you are in the middle of it, when it is time to leave. If you wife's health is being affected, and your young children are being affected,... she needs to get out. Her health, and your kids' well-being, are the important things. Once she is out, she will say "I wish I hadn't waited so long to get out of there."
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