How to fight work place bullying

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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

zelda wrote:I find Tim Field's work in workplace bullying especially helpful:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/amibeing.htm
particularly the "why me?" part on that page.

There is also a yahoo group related to that site. Some of the people there became ill from being bullied in the workplace.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/bullyonline/

It's hard to know, when you are in the middle of it, when it is time to leave. If you wife's health is being affected, and your young children are being affected,... she needs to get out. Her health, and your kids' well-being, are the important things. Once she is out, she will say "I wish I hadn't waited so long to get out of there."
Hi Zelda,

Welcome to the Forum! Thank you for making your first post in a thoughtful and useful way,

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
zelda
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by zelda »

Hi Victoria, Thanks for the welcome :D
Jim127
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Jim127 »

fposte wrote:
Jim127 wrote:Your wife needs to go the HR. Yes, they are there to protect the company and the company will not want to deal with a claim. Your wife is unhappy with her supervisor, not the company. If she goes to HR and HR does nothing or retaliates, your wife can actually have a claim against the company.
Can you elaborate on what basis you're seeing for a claim? Going to HR isn't a legally protected activity--it's scummy and stupid but legal for them to fire her for that if they choose. We don't have anti-bullying laws in the US, and I didn't see anything else obvious that would be a breach of labor laws.

See this link:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... 30217.html

Many companies will have work policies in place regarding harassment. Companies are risk averse and do not want problems. Companies will typically look for solutions. A bad manager can cost a company much more money than a perceived poor performing employee.
fposte
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by fposte »

But that is explicitly about illegal harassment. This isn't illegal harassment, because it's not harassment based on a legally protected reason--it's perfectly legal, if horrible, to harass an employee for being too nice. And there's no legal protection from retaliation when the action objected to is legal.

I agree that it's not good management, of course, but they're not going to run scared from a retaliation claim when there's no legal basis for one.
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dm200
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by dm200 »

Irony is that she took $10K pay cut from her previous employer, gave up 6 week vacation to take this job as she wanted to try something new.
Wow! How unfortunate for her (and you!). I suppose that this certainly is "something new". From what you describe - this job is a real nightmare.
SGM
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by SGM »

Jack Kerouac wrote "It's a tit for tat world." Probably it is not true, but I still have faith that these awful managers will get their come-up-ins eventually. Call it schadenfreude, but I have joyously seen such managers eventually fired or sent off to some forsaken outpost at the other end of the world for such behavior. Usually this happened not long after I left a place of employment. This only adds to my many happy memories of a long successful working career. :sharebeer
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frugaltype
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by frugaltype »

Jim127 wrote:
fposte wrote:
Jim127 wrote:Your wife needs to go the HR. Yes, they are there to protect the company and the company will not want to deal with a claim. Your wife is unhappy with her supervisor, not the company. If she goes to HR and HR does nothing or retaliates, your wife can actually have a claim against the company.
Can you elaborate on what basis you're seeing for a claim? Going to HR isn't a legally protected activity--it's scummy and stupid but legal for them to fire her for that if they choose. We don't have anti-bullying laws in the US, and I didn't see anything else obvious that would be a breach of labor laws.

See this link:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... 30217.html

Many companies will have work policies in place regarding harassment. Companies are risk averse and do not want problems. Companies will typically look for solutions. A bad manager can cost a company much more money than a perceived poor performing employee.
HR was totally useless to me in my situation.
cherijoh
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by cherijoh »

zelda wrote:I find Tim Field's work in workplace bullying especially helpful:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/amibeing.htm
particularly the "why me?" part on that page.

There is also a yahoo group related to that site. Some of the people there became ill from being bullied in the workplace.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/bullyonline/

It's hard to know, when you are in the middle of it, when it is time to leave. If you wife's health is being affected, and your young children are being affected,... she needs to get out. Her health, and your kids' well-being, are the important things. Once she is out, she will say "I wish I hadn't waited so long to get out of there."

Thanks for the links. This quote seems to describe the current situation to a T:
The purpose of bullying is to hide inadequacy. It has nothing to do with managing: Management is managing; bullying is not managing. Anyone who chooses to bully implicitly admits their inadequacy.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

dm200 wrote:
Irony is that she took $10K pay cut from her previous employer, gave up 6 week vacation to take this job as she wanted to try something new.
Wow! How unfortunate for her (and you!). I suppose that this certainly is "something new". From what you describe - this job is a real nightmare.
The OP wrote that his wife worked long hours at her former job. At this job she can leave earlier, even though she continues working at home. The move was probably justified by shorter hours in the office.

But this brings up another idea. Several times in the past, after I have left a department or a group, my former boss suggested that if I was not completely satisfied in the new place I was welcomed back. Perhaps, the OP's wife can return to the previous employer?

Victoria
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michpocz
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by michpocz »

Your wife needs to take back her sense of self. I recommend disregarding what her boss tells her to do when it does not effect the job she is suppose to do. Then when the boss questions her, just say sorry with a straight face, didn't mean to, must have forgot etc...
Your wife needs to try and wear out the boss so she picks on somebody else. Have fun with it. Act innocent
BlckhwkPlt
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by BlckhwkPlt »

I dealt with this. Went to HR. They eventually "needed to downsize" and let me go (boss had been there 20+ years but I was the first person who they hired as the company expanded to help her with her job.)

I filed for unemployment. They tried to say I was fired. I asked the unemployment commission why they paid me out my merit bonus and gave me all favorable performance reviews if I was fired and not laid off.

I won that battle and collected unemployment for some months before I went into the military for training :twisted:
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stickman731
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by stickman731 »

I had a similar situation with a back stabbing abusive boss. "Everybody loved him" "Got the job done" " He has friends" I saw him destroy two other people career. I had enough when he attacked me in a meeting.

After 30 years I was incompetent, was not a leader or good supervisor and did not understand our chemistry or how to sell. I walked out and went right to HR.

Go to HR they have harassment policies - be factual and detailed about the issues. Follow-up it in writing with them (HR). Be on the offense, asked about step to find another spot in the organization or resolve the problem with supervisor. Keep records separate and not on the work computer (inlcuding performance reviews). Actively look for another job.

In my cases, I got another job in the organization and HR was thankful for my detailed report. I actually found out that I was not only one who complained but my records were detailed. They re-assigned my old boss to a non-supervisor role - got him some training - many of his "friends" came up to me with very strange comments afterwards. He now has to perform on his own - it is not happenning.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

stickman731 wrote:Keep records separate and not on the work computer (including performance reviews).
Why not to use the work computer? Because the records can be wiped?

I think one effective way to document abuse is to send email messages to oneself stating what has happened on the day it has happened. If these messages are sent to one's home email address and saved in the Sent items folder, the record would exist in both places.

Victoria
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killjoy2012
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by killjoy2012 »

VictoriaF wrote:
stickman731 wrote:Keep records separate and not on the work computer (including performance reviews).
Why not to use the work computer? Because the records can be wiped?

I think one effective way to document abuse is to send email messages to oneself stating what has happened on the day it has happened. If these messages are sent to one's home email address and saved in the Sent items folder, the record would exist in both places.

Victoria
That's great assuming you don't care that the company knows you're actively documenting your case, possibly causing drama in the workplace, and don't mind being labeled "a problem". Work email is anything but private, especially when you're sending emails to external email addresses.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

killjoy2012 wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
stickman731 wrote:Keep records separate and not on the work computer (including performance reviews).
Why not to use the work computer? Because the records can be wiped?

I think one effective way to document abuse is to send email messages to oneself stating what has happened on the day it has happened. If these messages are sent to one's home email address and saved in the Sent items folder, the record would exist in both places.

Victoria
That's great assuming you don't care that the company knows you're actively documenting your case, possibly causing drama in the workplace, and don't mind being labeled "a problem". Work email is anything but private, especially when you're sending emails to external email addresses.
The OP's wife is ready to quit. Some posters advise her to go to the HR. Under these circumstances, if the company knows that she is documenting her case it's to her advantage.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
maroon
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by maroon »

Maybe I'm jaded, but I have to laugh about the suggestion to "go to HR." HR's role is to protect the company, not the OP's wife. Since the manager "seemed to be known in and out of the company for being a mean" (per the OP), do you think HR is unaware? Unless the OP's wife can document illegal harassment, going to HR might not accomplish much, IMO. (Again, this is my opinion only, and a non-informed one.)
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

maroon wrote:Maybe I'm jaded, but I have to laugh about the suggestion to "go to HR." HR's role is to protect the company, not the OP's wife. Since the manager "seemed to be known in and out of the company for being a mean" (per the OP), do you think HR is unaware? Unless the OP's wife can document illegal harassment, going to HR might not accomplish much, IMO. (Again, this is my opinion only, and a non-informed one.)
I agree that the HR's role is to protect the company. But HR can go about it in different ways, ranging from suppressing the information to offering the OP's wife a package so that she would leave to moving her to a different department. Companies don't worry only about the legality of their actions; many large companies are also concerned about public relations.

Victoria
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maroon
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by maroon »

I agree with you, Victoria. And I always enjoy your posts.

But still I don't see much upside for the OP's wife. So HR reprimands the supervisor; will that help the workplace environment? I doubt it. Chilly relations ahead.

Okay, perhaps HR will give OP's wife a package to move elsewhere? I've never heard of this. In my former workplace, the colleagues who complained about the boss did not fare as well.

If the company is known as being a bad employer - as the OP states - somehow I don't think HR will be suddenly enlightened if/when OP's wife complains.
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VictoriaF
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by VictoriaF »

maroon wrote:I agree with you, Victoria. And I always enjoy your posts.

But still I don't see much upside for the OP's wife. So HR reprimands the supervisor; will that help the workplace environment? I doubt it. Chilly relations ahead.

Okay, perhaps HR will give OP's wife a package to move elsewhere? I've never seen this; could be I'm working in the wrong places! (Or maybe I'm just not important/high-up enough to know about such arrangements.)

If the company is known as being a bad employer - as the OP states - somehow I don't think HR will be suddenly enlightened if/when OP's wife complains.
maroon,

I am not disagreeing with you, I am only saying that HR has some options and we don't know which one they would choose if the OP's wife went there. Whether it's worth for her to risk going to the HR is not clear. As a new employee she has much less leverage than someone with many years of experience. On the other hand, if this is a very large global company, the HR may be more willing to normalize the situation. The goal of going to the HR would be not to punish the supervisor but to normalize her working conditions, for example, by claiming a mismatch in her current position and asking for a better fit in a different department.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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stickman731
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by stickman731 »

I printed all my documents and converted them to pdf format. Then placed them on a jump drive. No home e-mail.

If the harrassment does not meet the "legal standard", the effects on her health (physical and mental) can be used for medical documentation of persistent and consistent work related stress at the hands of her supervisor. She can go on the disability which HR likes to avoid.
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SnapShots
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by SnapShots »

killjoy2012 wrote:Most large companies have their share of these types of poor leaders / managers:

- Don't go to HR now.
If she wants to say something during an exit interview - fine, but not before.
- If your wife has determined that enough is enough, then focus on finding another job... internally or externally. That's the out - not HR.

HR is not on your wife's side.
HR represents and is out to protect the company.

Forget the exit interview. Leave and don't provide one.

I would keep a log of what the manager's doing, just in case the manger tries to fire your wife. Then consult with an attorney experienced in work place harassment before talking with anyone, making a statement or doing anything.

Hopefully, she can get another job and leave ASAP. Good Luck!
the best decision many times is the hardest to do
CherylHall
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by CherylHall »

Hello, your wife is a target from the bully boss likely due to insecurity of her new boss. I am in the same boat but with other tatics - though after 5 years people are onto her and avoid her like the plague. She bullys HER boss and he has made comments to me about it - and she has a drinking problem that comes up at high end company events - every time.

I am highly rated and well thought of so I do not think that I am in the same situation but have done research and some of the best here - this site was a huge find for me it describes my instance to a T. The book is very helpful also.

http://www.kickbully.com/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... ullycom-20

I think going to HR is futile, in other instances HR in my company HR has done nothing and there is a good chance will make you look bad. I never talk to her with anyone around and document in a highly factual manner the missed vacations on my reviews "as expected due to the workload". And she doesn't know the work so I simply don't do the hours anymore and ask for help. The real deal is that this is no way to live. Hope this helps
Last edited by CherylHall on Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Kuota Rider
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Kuota Rider »

I had a similar situation. The manager wasn't taking aim at any individual, but he was incompetent and was verbally abusive toward many. One person did go to HR and she was let go a few months later. One person sent an anonymous letter to HR documenting racial language, verbal abuse, and illegal hiring practices. HR did do a secret investigation. Multiple people collaborated the same points made in the letter, but no changes were made. Eventually, half the department left within a few months and the company was left with no other choice but to let the manager go.
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burt
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by burt »

Dear OP,
I am sorry for your situation. I have been in those shoes more than once in by 30+ year career.

1900’s Coal Mines:
“If the donkey dies, I have to buy another one. If you die, I just get another one.”

burt
Gauss44
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Gauss44 »

Dutch wrote:Standing up for yourself is usually good advice when it comes to male bullying. With female bullying I honestly have no idea.

It sounds like changing the situation will not work, so changing jobs would be the only option. An internal transfer or a different job elsewhere.

Easier said then done.
In addition to changing positions within the company, you could look for other people who have experienced bullying from that same person. If you were no longer with the department, you could then have a confidential meeting with her boss, HR, or someone who cares about employee conduct, about her inappropriate and counterproductive behavior. You could mention how her behavior contributes to an unpleasant work environment, poor moral, or a loss in productivity. If you are able to suggest a solution that would even be better. For non-bosses who bully, a solution can be for them not to speak to you or about you and if there's an issue to take it to the boss. Since, she's a manager, there would need to be a different kind of solution in place.

If you look for another position within the company, you should point out why you are passionate about that new job, why you would be good or a good fit for the job, your eagerness to learn - basically make it about the new job and not the current position to the extent possible.
Gauss44
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by Gauss44 »

zelda wrote:I find Tim Field's work in workplace bullying especially helpful:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/amibeing.htm
particularly the "why me?" part on that page.

There is also a yahoo group related to that site. Some of the people there became ill from being bullied in the workplace.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/bullyonline/

It's hard to know, when you are in the middle of it, when it is time to leave. If you wife's health is being affected, and your young children are being affected,... she needs to get out. Her health, and your kids' well-being, are the important things. Once she is out, she will say "I wish I hadn't waited so long to get out of there."
If she ends up with ptsd from the workplace, she might be able to claim disability.

Some "bullied" employees also find it helpful to see a counselor on the company's insurance plan. They can go to the counselor for support and guidance while writing down or fine-tuning their logs of problems in the workplace. The counselor can also screen for anxiety levels, ptsd, acute stress disorders, etc. and potentially document them later on.

Heck, if her performance is ever criticized she might be able to blame it on a mental health problem, or confidential medical issue protected by HIPPA laws... If that is the case, that might give her piece of mind. A good counselor could provide her with a letter.
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sans souliers
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Re: How to fight work place bullying

Post by sans souliers »

I wanted to jump in a couple days ago with advice to just confront the bully with a challenge and an implied threat to take this to upper management's attention.
I had to hold off until I could recall MY bullies. Plural.

Our organizational chart at the time (10 years back, or so) had first line supervisors (my tier) responsible for two different factory functions -- I was working for TWO bosses, one an experienced and practicing bully, and the other was learning how.
They tag-teamed me for a few months until I broke. Or broke free. They had me meet them one afternoon in one of the small rooms by their offices. Can't remember which nit they were picking with me that day, but in 5 minutes, I invited them both to fire me right then. I got up to leave and their demeanor changed as if by magic. They told me the situation didn't warrant such extreme action (but I'd felt it like heat, it was so real).
I returned to one of my desks and called THEIR boss, leaving him a message explaining what had happened.

Nothing happened for about a month, then the bully was dismissed, and the apprentice was reassigned. One of their other subordinates bought pizza for everybody the next day -- no reason -- just the celebrate a nice day.

I wished I'd thought of that.

So no -- it's easy to say what someone should do, but it's NOT easy doing what needs to be done. I had to be backed into a corner, and ready to lose my job with nothing to fall back on. It was terrifying, and I resolved that no one would ever have me in that position again.

You are not alone. You're not the first bully's victim, and you won't be the last.
Find your strength whichever way you can. No one controls you, ultimately.
Sometimes pessimism leaves me pretty well prepared for when things don't go my way, and pleasantly surprised when they do.
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