Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

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sunnyday
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Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by sunnyday »

I'm a software developer and have been at the same company for 6 years. I'm casually looking at other companies but am surprised by the salaries. For example, on glassdoor.com the national median for a software engineer is $73k and $62k for a web developer. This is lower than I would have expected and I'm wondering if programming salaries have decreased over the last few years. Are software jobs not as hot now due to large corporations are outsourcing more, which in turn leads to decreased salaries and greater competition at smaller companies? Anyway, I'm interested to hear from others about the industry trends. I'll probably stay put at my company for a while unless I can get a substantial pay increase elsewhere.
void
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by void »

It depends heavily on where you live and the company.

In Seattle, DC, and the valley, 100k is reached quickly (sometimes higher as a starting salary) but doesn't necessarily buy much in terms of housing.

Occasionally on Bogleheads people cite 200K and higher but I haven't met anyone in that ballpark. Maybe that includes stock options.
Topic Author
sunnyday
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by sunnyday »

void wrote:It depends heavily on where you live and the company.

In Seattle, DC, and the valley, 100k is reached quickly (sometimes higher as a starting salary) but doesn't necessarily buy much in terms of housing.

Occasionally on Bogleheads people cite 200K and higher but I haven't met anyone in that ballpark. Maybe that includes stock options.
The software engineering salary medians on glassdoor.com for the locations that you mentioned are:

Seattle - $85k
DC - $67k
Palo Alto - $92k

I'm surprised by those too, especially DC.
Last edited by sunnyday on Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cheapskate
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by cheapskate »

In Silicon Valley hiring is crazy and salaries are through the roof (for developers with the right skills).

http://www.businessinsider.com/record-s ... rs-2013-10

The demand is mostly for Web2.0 programmers - both front end and back end work - LAMP programming, cloud storage and so on.

What the piece fails to mention is that if you are a family of 4, $150K/year probably buys a minimalist lifestyle with *long* commutes into work. Cost of living is proportionally out of whack too.

Having seen Silicon Valley through the late 90s, the 2000-2002 bust and recovery and the collapse in 2008-2009, I can't help feeling that we have another massive bubble on our hands. VCs are funding anything and everything, Web 2.0 stock valuations are through the roof, companies are going public without plans of turning a profit and so on. So basically, the salaries have to crater sooner or later. The entire thing seems unsustainable.
void
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by void »

My starting salary about 8 years ago was higher than the DC median.

I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in Glassdoor. Looking at my employer (40k employees) and position, filtered by my location, I am making more than the highest reported salary, but there is no way that is true. The same is true of my last company of 100k employees.

Ask your friends in the field what ballpark they make.

Have you looked at salary.com?
countofmc
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by countofmc »

I live in Silicon Valley. Not a SE, but know and am friends with quite a few of them obviously. The ones I'm close enough with to ask about salaries are back-end web developers. Generally early-mid 30s, about 10 years exp, salary all-in (with bonus) seems to be in the $150k range.
countofmc
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by countofmc »

cheapskate wrote:In Silicon Valley hiring is crazy and salaries are through the roof (for developers with the right skills).

http://www.businessinsider.com/record-s ... rs-2013-10

The demand is mostly for Web2.0 programmers - both front end and back end work - LAMP programming, cloud storage and so on.

What the piece fails to mention is that if you are a family of 4, $150K/year probably buys a minimalist lifestyle with *long* commutes into work. Cost of living is proportionally out of whack too.

Having seen Silicon Valley through the late 90s, the 2000-2002 bust and recovery and the collapse in 2008-2009, I can't help feeling that we have another massive bubble on our hands. VCs are funding anything and everything, Web 2.0 stock valuations are through the roof, companies are going public without plans of turning a profit and so on. So basically, the salaries have to crater sooner or later. The entire thing seems unsustainable.
Didn't Silicon Valley weather the recession quite well though (the 2008-2009 one). I was here during that time and housing prices collapsed, but the job market for techies seemed to be pretty resilient.
curmudgeon
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by curmudgeon »

Depends on how you slice the data. When my mother asked me what I do, I always answered, "software engineer", to keep the conversation simple. But I'm not sure that I've ever had a job where the official title was software engineer. Often they were tongue-twisters like "senior principal programmer analyst", or "software system architect", because that was how the organization justified the salaries they needed to pay to get good people (i.e. they were impressing the beancounters back at corporate headquarters).

Software engineer sounds like entry level; do they categorize "senior sw engineer", or other levels? Salaries are also very dependent on region and specialty.
davidlukewilcox
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by davidlukewilcox »

I agree with curmudgeon. Glassdoor categorizes by job title, not career. They have a separate categorization for "Senior Software Engineer". They seem to get paid much more.
KyleAAA
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by KyleAAA »

I wouldn't put any stock at all in glassdoor. $73,000 doesn't seem insanely low when you consider a ton of those people are entry level in low cost-of-living areas.

According to Payscale.com, the median in Atlanta is $86,000, which has a moderately lower COL than Washington.
rex
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by rex »

Coming from someone who has been in this line of work for about 7 years, I can say that it really depends. There is a broad range of salaries depending on your job function, location and company size. When I graduated back in 2006, my classmates got "software jobs" with starting salary ranges from 32K to 106K. My company now pays a starting salary of around 85K plus signing bonus for fresh college graduates, which is the norm for a large S/W company.

Engineers working in IT (Application developers) tend to get paid less than platform engineers (think folks developing the Azure Platform or iOS). Also, the salary past senior level becomes flat as most of your compensation moves to stock awards and year end bonuses. For example, someone managing a team of 70 engineers would have a base salary of only about 190K , but the year end bonus plus stock awards will add another 180k to 250k. The key thing to note here is that at this point, the job is probably not categorized as a software engineering job per say in various job stats sites.

-Rex
chocolatemuffin
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by chocolatemuffin »

I have worked in the Silicon Valley as a software engineer for about 15 years already. The job does pay reasonably well, but it won't get you rich unless your stock options turn out to be worth millions (that really requires a lot of luck).

Actual salary really depends on your skill set. It can go sky high if you have really strong skills that are in-demand and multiple competing offers. In more normal cases (assuming an average candidate in a big tech company), I think it's quite common for new grads to start at around $80k base salary nowadays. Salaries tend to go up faster in the earlier years, but plateau at around $150k - $200k or so after 10 - 15 years in the industry. It can go quite a lot higher if you make it into director/VP-level management or chief architect-type positions. Bonus can give you another 10%-25% extra for an engineer.

Of course, keep in mind that housing in Silicon Valley is very expensive.
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bertilak
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by bertilak »

sunnyday wrote:Are software jobs not as hot now due to large corporations are outsourcing more, which in turn leads to decreased salaries and greater competition at smaller companies? Anyway, I'm interested to hear from others about the industry trends. I'll probably stay put at my company for a while unless I can get a substantial pay increase elsewhere.
As someone who worked at software engineering for 42 years I can say that outsourcing does have an effect. Luckily, by the time that made a difference I was in a position to be directing the people doing those outsourced jobs. I worked with dozens of foreigners doing jobs that at one time would have been local.

Another difference is the competition. There are MANY more highly-qualified software engineers available today than even 10 or 20 years ago. Twenty years ago I would have never been hired for the job I had then. I would have been grossly under educated. Heck, my degree was in Civil Engineering! Also, even if I had the proper education it would need to have been from one of a few top schools and I would need to have been very high up in the graduating class. (The company I worked for had a good reputation so could afford to be picky.)
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Jfet
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by Jfet »

Seattle area with 20+ years of experience, a senior software developer can break $200K if you include bonus and stock grants/options. You have to be good...they outsource all of the grunt work stuff, but you have to have the brilliant minds on site to prepare for SHTF build breaks 48 hours before a product launch.
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cflannagan
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by cflannagan »

Worked as software engineer for over 9 years. I do think there is somewhat of a downward pressure on software engineer's salaries in the US due to outsourcing, but I think companies are finally wisening up and realizing that outsourcing is not necessarily a good solution in many cases.

I earn above what is average in my area (Tampa Bay area).
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leonidas
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by leonidas »

I have been in the software development field for 20 years. In may area, you tend to top out after about 15 years unless you are a higher level manager. No stock options but we do get variable bonuses. I peaked in 2008. Had to send the wife to work recently to achieve an increase on the old standard of living.
Quickfoot
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by Quickfoot »

Don't be a median software engineer :). I made 90K in a very low cost of living area, cost of living adjusted it'd be about 170K in new york. If you are a good engineer you will find a job and will be well paid. There are a ton of software engineers out of there but very few that are architect or senior engineer quality.
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Clearly_Irrational
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by Clearly_Irrational »

I work in Systems Administration, usually in architect, operations team lead or management roles so it's not quite the same but I work with a lot of developers so I have a fair idea of how both markets work. Over time the job market for both fields is becoming bi-modal. Average players don't get paid that great but top performers are pulling in ever higher compensation. Stay on top of your game, make sure you're constantly building up your skillset and positive work history and the pay increases will come. Stagnate, stay too comfortable and don't build up your toolkit and pay won't do that well either.
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Watty
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by Watty »

Clearly_Irrational wrote: Stay on top of your game, make sure you're constantly building up your skillset and positive work history and the pay increases will come. Stagnate, stay too comfortable and don't build up your toolkit and pay won't do that well either.
If you are doing the hands on work then staying at the top in a software means that you need to make a transition to the latest thing every ten years or so and a lot of people do not make the transition to the next hot thing. This is not because people are not capable of learning the next technology, it is often because they can still make top dollar working on the older platform until it is past it's prime. By the time that job market starts fading there are lots of low cost entry level people with the latest skills which can make it hard for a senior person to find a position where they can get experience with the latest skills.

Ideally by then you will have moved on to management or higher level design where having the latest skills is not as important.

The technology cycles seem to be accelerating so in the future you will likely need to make the transitions even more often. Fifteen years ago the internet was just starting to take off and smart phones did not take off until about ten years ago, and the first iPad was only released in 2010(which surprised me when I looked it up)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPad

I'm near retirement now and I've seen a lot of people start out in computers in their 20's, make the first transition to a new platform in their 30',s but then not make it to the next technical generation in their 40's or 50's. If they are lucky they can find legacy support work on the older platform for a while longer but the newer platform seem to die pretty quickly. Applications on mainframes and large systems can last for decades so that can work out OK but even then I've seen a lot of people that are unable to find legacy work and have to start a new career when they are middle age.
ieee488
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by ieee488 »

Part of the challenge is getting in on a project for the next 'in" technology or programming language.
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nordsteve
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by nordsteve »

Software engineering is still one of the best careers out there, if you have the skills to do the work, and are willing to invest your time and energies in learning new things.

A couple notes on making money in software.

For IT work, you need to live in a city with large corporate headquarters operations. Those sorts of businesses in your city create lots of demand for software engineers. Being the "IT Manager" for a 50 person manufacturing company in the hinterlands will pay well on a local basis, but not when compared to city IT jobs.

Salary surveys are skewed by the sorts of people who stay in programming roles in companies. Most people who have aspirations either move into management or architect roles, or leave to become consultants. Companies are much more willing to pay by the hour for expertise than they are to hire it on permanently.

The software/Internet/finance company ecosystem is nearly entirely separate from IT work. Pay there is substantially higher than the IT area, and experienced, capable software engineers who are able to direct the work of others can easily earn $200,000+ in total compensation.
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greg24
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by greg24 »

ieee488 wrote:Part of the challenge is getting in on a project for the next 'in" technology or programming language.
This is a great point. You can also find ways to integrate new technology into your current projects or tasks.
nordsteve
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by nordsteve »

1. Integrate new product or technology in current tasks
2. Create prototype with new product/technology on your own time
3. Agree with supervisor to include new product/technology in your objectives at review time
4. Identify volunteer opportunity where you can use new product/technology
5. Meet with architects to determine plans around new product/technology, and learn it before anyone else
chocolatemuffin
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by chocolatemuffin »

For Glassdoor data, I think it would be more useful if you search for a particular job that matches your background. For example, if you have 5-10 years of experience in system software development, Software Engineer IV at Cisco makes around $132k for salary + bonus in San Jose, California.
bstewartny
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by bstewartny »

Software engineer here. It's true salary will top out between 150k-200k in the coastal cities. Although cost of living is high where I live, That's still a good income for slinging code IMO. Personally I have been fortunate to cash in on significant stock options over the years at a couple different start ups and IPOs. I have had several opportunities for management positions but I would hate it so I plan to stay hands on. But I do take part in hiring and it is still VERY hard to find good senior engineers who can help build a real product or company.
nws0291
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Re: Software engineering jobs not paying that much?

Post by nws0291 »

My starting salary out of college for a software engineering position 5 years ago was a little over 70K. This is in FL with significantly lover cost of living than the valley and no state income tax. If you include options which really depend on timing then my total compensation has been six figures out of college. Now a senior level after a couple promotions and very happy with the industry. Our hiring process is very grueling and ranked very hard (top 20 on Forbes) but compensation reflects that. If you are competent you will have no problem finding a job on your terms.
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