"Chip" credit card for foreign travel

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The Wizard
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"Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by The Wizard »

Just returned from The Netherlands and Belgium and my normal Capital One Visa card worked OK at hotels and restaurants but there were a few places (train stations mainly) where it did not work. There were even signs that said only credit cards with a chip would work.
Madbrain reported similar (or worse) issues in France.
I want this issue SOLVED before my next European trip in several months.
I'll google around a bit on credit card comparison sites later, but I'm curious what others have found in the U.S.
Do "chip" cards also come with a mag stripe and work fine in the U.S.?
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stlutz
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by stlutz »

My chip card did not work at tollbooths in France.

Otherwise it has a mag stripe like any other card. I think there will need to be a switch to chip and pin in the US before you'll get a card that will work without problem at automated booths in Europe.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by marbat »

The Wizard wrote: Do "chip" cards also come with a mag stripe and work fine in the U.S.?
Yes. There are plenty of chip credit cards out there at this point. BoA, Citi, Chase, etc. all offer options, along with plenty of smaller credit unions. Debit chip is still a ways away.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by marbat »

stlutz wrote:My chip card did not work at tollbooths in France.

Otherwise it has a mag stripe like any other card. I think there will need to be a switch to chip and pin in the US before you'll get a card that will work without problem at automated booths in Europe.
The US is not going to be pursuing chip and PIN on a country-wide scale. The switch that is going to happen is that any remaining unattended terminals in Europe/rest of world that don't work without chip and PIN (ie: some older tollbooths) will authorize chip without PIN.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Spirit Rider »

Be aware that the majority of US "Chip" cards (BoA, Chase, Citi) are Chip and "Signature". There are some specific cards at major issuers and smaller issuers (credit unions) that have true Chip and "Pin" capability. However, there are reports that they are not 100% effective.

You are still fine 99% of the time without Chip cards. The most significant issue is unattended usage at transportation ticket kiosks, unattended gas station pumps, etc... I have a BoA Chip and Signature card. If a regular card gets you 99% of uses, Chip and Signature maybe gets you to 99.5% (percentages not exact. just rough anecdotal experience of limited incremental benefit).

I think the infrastructure is too large in the US to justify the conversion. Also, the chip card's fraud prevention have not demonstrated to be foolproof (just different types of fraud). So I question if the US will ever do a large scale implementation. Without that, I don't think there will be widespread adoption amongst US card issuers.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Sheepdog »

You may be interested in this recent Indianapolis television report on electronic chip credit and debit cards in which they reported that it is possible for someone to read your card information through your purse or pocket by just touching you with an electronic reading device and you won't know it. https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/lLAFhTjsQHw&sns=em
They even suggested that you carry the cards in card sleeves which will block the signal...or....wrapping your cards in aluminum foil.!!
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by neurosphere »

Sheepdog wrote:You may be interested in this recent Indianapolis television report on electronic chip credit and debit cards in which they reported that it is possible for someone to read your card information through your purse or pocket by just touching you with an electronic reading device and you won't know it. https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/lLAFhTjsQHw&sns=em
They even suggested that you carry the cards in card sleeves which will block the signal...or....wrapping your cards in aluminum foil.!!
The technology in existing US cards which have an RFID implanted (which allow you to "wave" your card near a sensor) is not what the "chip" in the chip and pin system. My current chase card (and my cell phone) can be used for payment by placing near a sensor. In theory, yes the info can be read through pants, wallet, etc if a device got close.

But the CHIP we are talking about for use in europe is an active device, where electricity has to make contact with the pins on the chip, and give power to the chip to read the info.

At least, that's my understand of the technology.
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The Wizard
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by The Wizard »

Thanks for all the replies; they helped expand my knowledge of this issue.
I also googled this and looks like both State Dept FCU and Andrews FCU have no-fee Chip & Pin cards available.
I'll check again closer to my next European trip and meanwhile, I'll bug Capital One to get on the ball and make Chip & Pin available there also...
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Duckie »

According to the October issue of Money magazine, Andrews Federal Credit Union has a GlobeTrek Rewards card with chip & pin technology, no annual fee, and no foreign transaction fee. See here.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Alskar »

The Wizard wrote:Just returned from The Netherlands and Belgium and my normal Capital One Visa card worked OK at hotels and restaurants but there were a few places (train stations mainly) where it did not work. There were even signs that said only credit cards with a chip would work.
I was able to use my "non-chipped" Capital One Signature Visa card this summer in Germany and Italy everywhere including train stations as long as I had my PIN. Getting to the right screen to use my PIN was sometimes challenging, but once I figured out where to enter my PIN I had no further issues.

I just got back from Taipei and Tokyo and I had no issues using my Capital One Signature Visa card to purchase HSR (High-Speed Rail) tickets in either country, once again using my PIN.

So my experience having a non-chipped card is a nuisance, but not a show-stopper as long as you have your PIN.
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enebyberg
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by enebyberg »

Just ask Capital One. They will send you a chip card that works fine in the US and in Europe without problems. Capital One is the only card that doesn't charge a percentage of 1% to 3% on overseas transactions. I've used one for quite a while in both the US and Europe.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Diogenes »

enebyberg wrote:Just ask Capital One. They will send you a chip card that works fine in the US and in Europe without problems. Capital One is the only card that doesn't charge a percentage of 1% to 3% on overseas transactions. I've used one for quite a while in both the US and Europe.
No, many others also now do not charge an international transaction fee, Citi Advantage Platinum VISA as an example.

The Chip&Pin topic has been discussed at length:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=105331

USAA issues a great true chip&pin, so does State Department FCU. It is catching on. I have used both in Europe recently at train kiosks.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Diogenes »

Duckie wrote:According to the October issue of Money magazine, Andrews Federal Credit Union has a GlobeTrek Rewards card with chip & pin technology, no annual fee, and no foreign transaction fee. See here.
Tried to work my way through the paperwork hoops to get the Andrews card and gave up. Andrews does not make it easy - I recommend you go elsewhere, especially now that USAA, and Citi have one. Andrews is not really set up to handle a large market in my opinion. If you want a Credit Union card, go with State Department FCU instead if you can. They have other advantages as well.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Braumeister »

Duckie wrote:According to the October issue of Money magazine, Andrews Federal Credit Union has a GlobeTrek Rewards card with chip & pin technology, no annual fee, and no foreign transaction fee. See here.
I've been using this card for nearly a year, and it has worked perfectly everywhere I've gone. :happy
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by animule »

Have to include my experiences here. Traveled to London for work in July - the UK had always been okay with regular non chip and pin credit card. Not this time. Turned into a huge pain in the rear.

It was hit or miss being able to use the regular credit card. Even the hotel - Holiday Inn Express - could only run the regular swipe credit card on a special terminal which turned a simple purchase into a 10 to 15 minute ordeal. It would not work on the chip and pin terminal.

This builds on the experience I had last year in the Netherlands and Belgium. The acceptance of regular swipe type US credit cards is dwindling in Europe, and you do need a chip and pin card if you are heading over there.

I plan on turning my Penfed gas credit card - the 5% back one - into a chip and pin card.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by sperry8 »

I have been in Europe for the past 2 months, and have been using Chase's British Airways Visa which is Chip & Signature. It has been accepted everywhere (100% of the time). It doesn't charge any foreign transaction fee and obviously I earn British Airways Avios miles when using it. Because it has a chip - every merchant knows what to do with it - and they simply ask "pin?" when they take it. I say no, and off they go - happily coming back with a pen for signature. I also like the big British Airways logo on the card - as this is well known in Europe and I think helps with merchants knowing this is a normal valid card (rather than some obscure US credit union card).
That said, I wasn't sure Chip & Signature would be accepted everywhere prior to leaving, so I am also carrying PenFed's Chip & Pin card. But I haven't used it yet (since I haven't needed to - and the rewards program is worse).

When I used to use my normal mag swipe cards - the merchants had a weird look because they aren't used to a card without a chip. They constantly tried to stick it in the machine rather than swipe it. It was generally accepted - but more frustrating to use. So I agree, you should definitely get a chip card.

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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by richard »

What works is very dependent on where you're using your card. It would be a mistake to assume that just because a card worked (or not) in one country, one type of machine (e.g., manual, unattended kiosk) or one merchant, it will work (or not) in others.

The credit unions (or at least the ones I'm familiar with), do not issue true chip & pin credit cards. The cards first try authenticating with chip & signature, then chip & pin. This can be an issue with a small number of merchants. Also, the cards will only authenticate online, but some kiosks do offline authentication. It's not a common problem, but it can be a problem.

Capital One US does not issue a chip card, at least as of a few weeks ago. Capital One Canada does
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by tiresias »

The Wizard wrote:Just returned from The Netherlands and Belgium and my normal Capital One Visa card worked OK at hotels and restaurants but there were a few places (train stations mainly) where it did not work. There were even signs that said only credit cards with a chip would work.
Madbrain reported similar (or worse) issues in France.
I want this issue SOLVED before my next European trip in several months.
I'll google around a bit on credit card comparison sites later, but I'm curious what others have found in the U.S.
Do "chip" cards also come with a mag stripe and work fine in the U.S.?
my chip-and-pin card is from bank of america and works fine in usa. haven't tried it yet in europe though...
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by iageek »

There is a thread over at http://www.flyertalk.com about Chip-and-Pin and Chip-and-Signature credit cards and using them for travel abroad. A poster over there also maintains this google doc - EMV Cards available in the US.

I got the Chase Hyatt Chip-and-Signature card in Ireland for 7 days last November. I had no issues with it what so ever, every clerk just handed me a receipt to sign. Chip and Pin would be easier for automated machines like tollbooths and train stations. We did't run into either in Ireland so it wasn't an issue.
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ATM's

Post by gerntz »

Anyone have a problem with Europe ATM's not accepting magnetic strip cards? Italy is my particular interest. Thanks.
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Re: ATM's

Post by sperry8 »

gerntz wrote:Anyone have a problem with Europe ATM's not accepting magnetic strip cards? Italy is my particular interest. Thanks.
i'm in Italy now - have been for 3 weeks. Have had no problems using my normal USA ATM card at a variety of local ATMs.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by gerntz »

^ Thanks.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Dick D »

Just returned from Greece where I used my radio chip and pin card. No problems with the card in Greece or the US. Just make sure you have an RF wallet.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by stan1 »

I've never had a problem using an ATM at a major bank with a mag strip debit or credit card. It is getting hard to find ATMs the further north you go, but should have no problems in Italy.

Issue is unmanned automated kiosks in parking garages, gas stations, transit stations, and toll booths, although in Denmark I've had my mag strip credit card denied everywhere I tried to use it except a hotel (and there ATMs are not easy to find).
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Noobvestor »

I have a chipped US Bank credit card that also has a magnetic strip and travel rewards. Best of all worlds, and would recommend it.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Rager1 »

The only problem we've had with the "chip" credit card in Europe is at toll booths and self-serve only gas stations. We carry cash for those. For restaurants and hotels, it works quite well.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by madbrain »

sperry8 wrote: Because it has a chip - every merchant knows what to do with it - and they simply ask "pin?" when they take it. I say no, and off they go - happily
coming back with a pen for signature. I also like the big British Airways logo on the card - as this is well known in Europe and I think helps with merchants knowing this is a normal valid card (rather than some obscure US credit union card).
Have you used at any unattended ticket machine, for example those operated by SNCF and RATP in train stations in Paris ?
There is no one you can say "no" to, the machine is the one that decides what type of card it will accept.

At certain hours and in certain stations, there are manned kiosks where you can buy the ticket if your card is not accepted by the machine, and they will take even magstripe cards there, but this can involve very long lines, sometimes 1 hour+ in my experience this summer .
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Re: ATM's

Post by madbrain »

gerntz wrote:Anyone have a problem with Europe ATM's not accepting magnetic strip cards? Italy is my particular interest. Thanks.
No, I have never had any problem at any ATM with magstripe card anywhere in Europe.

The problem is at other types of machines that dispense goods like train tickets, gasoline, etc, which tend accept only chip & pin cards in some countries.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by madbrain »

Rager1 wrote:The only problem we've had with the "chip" credit card in Europe is at toll booths and self-serve only gas stations. We carry cash for those. For restaurants and hotels, it works quite well.
I guess they haven't gotten rid of the toll booth or gas station operators yet where you went.
Many gas stations in France are unattended, especially at night, and you won't be able to use cash there. It's chip & pin or nothing.

Some train ticket machines will accept cash as coins, but won't give change, so this isn't very useful. I don't know if they will accept bills at the machines or not.
If you are buying a long distance train ticket that cost several hundred euros, you don't want to be paying for it in 2 euro coin increments.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by sperry8 »

madbrain wrote:
sperry8 wrote: Because it has a chip - every merchant knows what to do with it - and they simply ask "pin?" when they take it. I say no, and off they go - happily
coming back with a pen for signature. I also like the big British Airways logo on the card - as this is well known in Europe and I think helps with merchants knowing this is a normal valid card (rather than some obscure US credit union card).
Have you used at any unattended ticket machine, for example those operated by SNCF and RATP in train stations in Paris ?
There is no one you can say "no" to, the machine is the one that decides what type of card it will accept.

At certain hours and in certain stations, there are manned kiosks where you can buy the ticket if your card is not accepted by the machine, and they will take even magstripe cards there, but this can involve very long lines, sometimes 1 hour+ in my experience this summer .
In Italy I used it at the automated Trenitalia kiosks which require chip - and it worked seamlessly. I cannot say whether the same will hold true in other countries - but so far, it hasn't been denied/declined ever (successful countries where I've used the card in the past 2 months include Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey, & Italy). I am heading to Portugal and Spain next month - can update if anyone wants. But I don't anticipate any problems.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by madbrain »

sperry8,
sperry8 wrote: In Italy I used it at the automated Trenitalia kiosks which require chip - and it worked seamlessly. I cannot say whether the same will hold true in other countries - but so far, it hasn't been denied/declined ever (successful countries where I've used the card in the past 2 months include Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey, & Italy). I am heading to Portugal and Spain next month - can update if anyone wants. But I don't anticipate any problems.
I used my magstripe cards at automated Trenitalia kiosks in Venice last month with no problem. they didn't require chips. How do you know the kiosks you went to require chips ?
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by stan1 »

The real test is Netherlands and Denmark. In Denmark I couldn't use a mag strip card in any restaurant and could only buy a ticket for the Copenhagen Metro at the Airport or main station where there are manned counters (and long lines). The kiosks don't take cash, either. There are plenty of reports that the U.S. issued chipped cards don't work in some kiosks (and in one thread recent threat Marbat admitted this to be true if the kiosk is using older technology). My experience is the opposite: newer technology, like the Copenhagen Metro ticketing system, is where I've had problems.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by sperry8 »

madbrain wrote:sperry8,
sperry8 wrote: In Italy I used it at the automated Trenitalia kiosks which require chip - and it worked seamlessly. I cannot say whether the same will hold true in other countries - but so far, it hasn't been denied/declined ever (successful countries where I've used the card in the past 2 months include Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey, & Italy). I am heading to Portugal and Spain next month - can update if anyone wants. But I don't anticipate any problems.
I used my magstripe cards at automated Trenitalia kiosks in Venice last month with no problem. they didn't require chips. How do you know the kiosks you went to require chips ?
Hmmm, good point. I shouldn't have said required. I simply used my chip card in the kiosk and worked. Clearly if you used your magstripe card then it doesn't require chip.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by madbrain »

sperry8 wrote: Hmmm, good point. I shouldn't have said required. I simply used my chip card in the kiosk and worked. Clearly if you used your magstripe card then it doesn't require chip.
Yes, unless you tried the magstripe first and it failed, you don't know. And even then, there are sometimes other reasons they fail, like communication failures, or the US issuer blocking our cards (sigh) which explain the denial.

Each country is different. I grew up in France. The chipped bank card network there is called "Carte bleue" (blue card). Usually these are debit cards, both chipped and VISA magstripe at the same time.

Many years ago, the RATP/SNCF train tickets used to have the VISA logo on them. But in fact, no magstripe card would work. I noticed this the first year after I moved to the US - when coming back to visit family, my US card did not work and I couldn't buy metro tickets from the airport to downtown. That was in 1996 ...

I noticed on my last few trips that they repainted the machines and the VISA logo is no longer painted on any of them. Only the "Carte bleue" logo.
They still show the VISA logo at the manned booths, and accept magstripe there.

I don't know what that says in terms of the odds of foreign "chip & pin" and "chip & signature" cards being accepted at those Paris kiosks. I used to go back to family about once a year but no more, I wish I got 5 weeks vacation here, but employers in California are not that generous. It may be a couple of years before I get a chance to try my FIA VISA and Amex "chip& signature" cards hat I just received a few weeks ago, right after the last trip. I hope other Bogleheads will be able to report success with some of those cards at those machines before then. It's already been 17 years since I first ran into this problem and some days I wonder if it's a problem that will be solved in my lifetime.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by tschaefges »

Rager1 wrote:The only problem we've had with the "chip" credit card in Europe is at toll booths and self-serve only gas stations. We carry cash for those. For restaurants and hotels, it works quite well.
We were in France this past July. Our PenFed Visa (chip/pin) worked every time in these cases as well as in train and metro ticket kiosks. Our Citi ThankYou Premiere (chip/sig) did not work in any of them.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by madbrain »

tschaefges wrote:
Rager1 wrote:The only problem we've had with the "chip" credit card in Europe is at toll booths and self-serve only gas stations. We carry cash for those. For restaurants and hotels, it works quite well.
We were in France this past July. Our PenFed Visa (chip/pin) worked every time in these cases as well as in train and metro ticket kiosks. Our Citi ThankYou Premiere (chip/sig) did not work in any of them.
Thanks !

I guess I need to open an account with Penfed then. Sigh.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by neurosphere »

Updating this old thread to add some news that Chips are coming to credit cards, by about October 2015 according to this article:

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intellig ... edit-card/
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Girino »

Thanks for updating. I can add that my Credit Union just automatically switched my Visa Card to a Mastercard chip/pin card. I didn't ask, and they didn't ask me if I wanted it, they just notified me two days ago that they were making the change. I'm OK with that. They tell me I should receive it this month.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Diogenes »

Girino wrote:Thanks for updating. I can add that my Credit Union just automatically switched my Visa Card to a Mastercard chip/pin card. I didn't ask, and they didn't ask me if I wanted it, they just notified me two days ago that they were making the change. I'm OK with that. They tell me I should receive it this month.

Make sure is is actually a Chip & Pin. Many U.S. banks are transitioning to a Chip & Signature, as previously noted above. Looks identical and some branch people may not know the difference. That is not much use if you plan to use automated kiosks in Europe for gas, train tickets, etc. You will know if you receive a fixed pin in the mail that cannot be changed easily. Reason is that the pin is encoded into the chip at the Visa level, not at the bank.
My chip & pin cards worked fine at unattended gas stations and train ticket machines in France and elsewhere in Europe (State Department FCU, USAA)

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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Crimsontide »

Went to Finland recently, I did not have a chipped card. None of the taxis would use the swipe type. Had to get extra cash for taxis... Our company is just now starting to provide the Chip and PIN cards.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Glenn »

I have the PenFed chip and PIN, and it works fine in the U.S., Europe, Australia, Africa, and Central America. Some places use the magnetic strip, some have me sign, some require the PIN. No problems.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by smackboy1 »

After a trip to Canada I've been researching chip + PIN CCs (a.k.a. EMV cards - Europay MasterCard Visa). Obviously Canadian merchants accept US non-chip mag stripe CCs, but it's inconvenient at places like the gas station where I have to show my card to the cashier.

Some CC issuers will provide a free chip + signature replacement card if requested. I got my Amex Blue Cash reissued with chip + signature. It may work in places where mag stripe only cards fail, but not if EMV is required.

Other CC issuers have no chips and don't really have any future implementation date. Capital One said no dice. I'm going to stop using the Cap One for overseas travel. Probably costs too much and the US, even though it's lagging behind Europe, doesn't seem to really be moving toward more secure CC transactions.

The best and easiest EMV CC I found is PenFed's Chip + PIN Visa Gold. $0.00 annual fee, 0.00% forex transaction fee. The entire process from joining PenFed FCU to applying for the CC can be completed online (anybody can join PenFed FCU for a $15 donation). This is a true EMV CC (although I haven't tested it yet). The only downside I can find is if you don't pay in full each month the APR is not the lowest, and there are no rewards programs.

https://www.penfed.org/Visa-Gold/
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
marbat
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by marbat »

Diogenes wrote: Make sure is is actually a Chip & Pin. Many U.S. banks are transitioning to a Chip & Signature, as previously noted above. Looks identical and some branch people may not know the difference. That is not much use if you plan to use automated kiosks in Europe for gas, train tickets, etc. You will know if you receive a fixed pin in the mail that cannot be changed easily. Reason is that the pin is encoded into the chip at the Visa level, not at the bank.
My chip & pin cards worked fine at unattended gas stations and train ticket machines in France and elsewhere in Europe (State Department FCU, USAA)

_D_
Wrong. There is a rule coming into effect that will require all unattended terminals to fall back from PIN to Sig or No Cardholder Verification Method for compatibility with Chip and Sig cards. Please don't spread misinformation - I already mentioned this earlier in the thread. Unattended terminals that don't accept Chip and Sig are already becoming a rarity. Within a year or so, they should be completely eliminated.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by TimeRunner »

"Depending on payment brand rules and issuer preference, chip cards are personalized with one or more CVMs in order to be accepted in as wide a variety of locations as possible. Online PIN or offline PIN CVMs directly protect against fraud resulting from lost, stolen, and never-received cards. Signature verification requires a written signature at the POS, as is currently required with magnetic stripe cards. Validation occurs when the signature on the receipt is compared to and matches the signature on the back of the card. EMV also supports transactions that require “no CVM.” No CVM is typically used for low value transactions or for transactions at unattended POS locations."

See: http://www.smartcardalliance.org/pages/ ... ate=slides
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Diogenes
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Diogenes »

marbat wrote:
Diogenes wrote: Make sure is is actually a Chip & Pin. Many U.S. banks are transitioning to a Chip & Signature, as previously noted above. Looks identical and some branch people may not know the difference. That is not much use if you plan to use automated kiosks in Europe for gas, train tickets, etc. You will know if you receive a fixed pin in the mail that cannot be changed easily. Reason is that the pin is encoded into the chip at the Visa level, not at the bank.
My chip & pin cards worked fine at unattended gas stations and train ticket machines in France and elsewhere in Europe (State Department FCU, USAA)

_D_
Wrong. There is a rule coming into effect that will require all unattended terminals to fall back from PIN to Sig or No Cardholder Verification Method for compatibility with Chip and Sig cards. Please don't spread misinformation - I already mentioned this earlier in the thread. Unattended terminals that don't accept Chip and Sig are already becoming a rarity. Within a year or so, they should be completely eliminated.
Marbat, not sure about your real world experience to make your statement. I see from your other posts you are 25. If you think such terminals are a 'rarity' you don't travel much. I have lived in Europe for 5 years recently and travel frequently to France. I see Americans standing in lines in train stations needlessly all the time for the lack of a chip and pin. Most recently while in France for a month late last year I confirmed they again they are especially required at gas stations and toll booths, and well as train stations in France and Switzerland. Toll roads in France also allow for cash. Do you have any real world experience to show otherwise? Do you have a link to a EU ruling that confirms what you say? If you are talking about a U.S. rule, that of course is meaningless. None of my friends or colleagues in Europe carry anything other than a true chip & pin. Most people in the States do not yet have them, or need to - unless they plan travel to Europe.

Europe is not backtracking on the c&p requirement, quite the contrary, that is their standard. Do you think Europe will change their machines to benefit only the U.S. and lower their security standard? U.S. CC issuers such as USAA, SDFCU, AFCU, CITI, and others would not be doing great business issuing the c&p cards to those people that travel if what you say is true.
Last edited by Diogenes on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
stan1
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by stan1 »

Diogenes wrote:
marbat wrote:
Diogenes wrote: Make sure is is actually a Chip & Pin. Many U.S. banks are transitioning to a Chip & Signature, as previously noted above. Looks identical and some branch people may not know the difference. That is not much use if you plan to use automated kiosks in Europe for gas, train tickets, etc. You will know if you receive a fixed pin in the mail that cannot be changed easily. Reason is that the pin is encoded into the chip at the Visa level, not at the bank.
My chip & pin cards worked fine at unattended gas stations and train ticket machines in France and elsewhere in Europe (State Department FCU, USAA)

_D_
Wrong. There is a rule coming into effect that will require all unattended terminals to fall back from PIN to Sig or No Cardholder Verification Method for compatibility with Chip and Sig cards. Please don't spread misinformation - I already mentioned this earlier in the thread. Unattended terminals that don't accept Chip and Sig are already becoming a rarity. Within a year or so, they should be completely eliminated.
Marbat, not sure about your real world experience to make your statement. I see you are 25. I have lived in Europe for 5 years and travel frequently to France. I see Americans standing in lines in train stations needlessly all the time for the lack of a chip and pin. Most recently I confirmed they again they are required at gas stations in France and toll booths, and well as train stations in France and Switzerland. Do you have any real world experience to show otherwise? Do you have a link to a EU ruling that confirms what you say? If you are talking about a U.S. rule, that of course is meaningless. None of my friends or colleagues in Europe carry anything other than chip & pin. Most people in the States do not yet have them, or need to - unless they plan travel to Europe. Europe is not backtracking on the c&p requirement, quite the contrary.
Actually marbat works for one of the "big 3" credit card networks and has posted his credentials here several times, including in this thread linked below. I find marbat's posts to be very insightful -- so please be nice to him (or her)! :happy
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 2&t=114279
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by roymeo »

Sometimes there's a difference between what people inside a company 'know' and what people outside a company 'know'.
The sewer system is a form of welfare state. | -- "Libra", Don DeLillo
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by Diogenes »

roymeo wrote:Sometimes there's a difference between what people inside a company 'know' and what people outside a company 'know'.
+1

Being a few years in the 'industry' in the U.S. is quite meaningless to what actually happens in Europe now. I don't think most CC reps in the States actually have a clue as to what actually happens elsewhere.
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by marbat »

Jeez, tough crowd in here. I'm just trying to help! :P

1. I will be 26 in a few weeks, thank you very much. Happy Birthday to me!
2. As stan1 mentioned, I work for one of American Express/Visa/MasterCard. I am not a "CC rep" - I work in corporate strategy. Trust me, I know as much about the industry as is possible to know from an academic standpoint.
3. I am a first-generation American with family all over Europe. I travel a ton - mostly using my EU citizenship and passport. I have worked both in the US headquarters of my company, and actually, am now living and working permanently based out of one of the largest cities in Europe.
4. "Sometimes there's a difference between what people inside a company 'know' and what people outside a company 'know'." - I very much agree; looking forward to non-belligerent feedback.
5. Typically, Americans are standing in line having issues with unattended terminals because the unattended terminals do not accept cards without Chip. NOT Chip and PIN. Chip and Signature works in a vast majority of unattended terminals. As you mentioned, there are definitely terminals still out there today that require Chip and PIN and don't accept Chip and Signature, but they are in the minority. What you are referencing here is called the "representativeness heuristic."
6. To address those stragglers, as a condition of acceptance, Signature or No CVM will soon be required at all unattended terminals. This is not an EU ruling, it is part of the Global Operating Regulations that govern one or more of the payments networks. I am not sure if it has been finalized or published yet, but I expect the terminal makers will have about a year to comply. I am trying to let you guys know ahead of time and keep you in the loop :). If you are interested in checking to see if the requirement is live yet, please feel free to do so - Operating Regulations from all major networks are publicly available.
7. I am well aware that the standard in Europe is Chip and PIN. However, in most of the rest of the world, it is Chip and Sig.
8. I am not saying that unattended terminals will stop accepting Chip and PIN, only that they will have Sig or No CVM as a fallback. No impact to existing security in Europe because of this.

Please let me know if you have any questions. I'm happy to chat, but not if we are going to be rude and try to pull the age card on me.
criticalmass
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Re: "Chip" credit card for foreign travel

Post by criticalmass »

Diogenes wrote:
marbat wrote:
Diogenes wrote: Make sure is is actually a Chip & Pin. Many U.S. banks are transitioning to a Chip & Signature, as previously noted above. Looks identical and some branch people may not know the difference. That is not much use if you plan to use automated kiosks in Europe for gas, train tickets, etc. You will know if you receive a fixed pin in the mail that cannot be changed easily. Reason is that the pin is encoded into the chip at the Visa level, not at the bank.
My chip & pin cards worked fine at unattended gas stations and train ticket machines in France and elsewhere in Europe (State Department FCU, USAA)

_D_
Wrong. There is a rule coming into effect that will require all unattended terminals to fall back from PIN to Sig or No Cardholder Verification Method for compatibility with Chip and Sig cards. Please don't spread misinformation - I already mentioned this earlier in the thread. Unattended terminals that don't accept Chip and Sig are already becoming a rarity. Within a year or so, they should be completely eliminated.
Marbat, not sure about your real world experience to make your statement. I see from your other posts you are 25. If you think such terminals are a 'rarity' you don't travel much. I have lived in Europe for 5 years recently and travel frequently to France. I see Americans standing in lines in train stations needlessly all the time for the lack of a chip and pin. Most recently while in France for a month late last year I confirmed they again they are especially required at gas stations and toll booths, and well as train stations in France and Switzerland. Toll roads in France also allow for cash. Do you have any real world experience to show otherwise? Do you have a link to a EU ruling that confirms what you say? If you are talking about a U.S. rule, that of course is meaningless. None of my friends or colleagues in Europe carry anything other than a true chip & pin. Most people in the States do not yet have them, or need to - unless they plan travel to Europe.

Europe is not backtracking on the c&p requirement, quite the contrary, that is their standard. Do you think Europe will change their machines to benefit only the U.S. and lower their security standard? U.S. CC issuers such as USAA, SDFCU, AFCU, CITI, and others would not be doing great business issuing the c&p cards to those people that travel if what you say is true.

The folks you see waiting in line in France etc. likely have Magnetic stripe only cards, not Chip and Signature. Marbat's posts refer to Chip and Signature cards now working at most kiosks that previously only accepted Chip and PIN and there has indeed been a lot of progress in this area. Magnetic stripe is still (and will continue to be) no good at many unattended kiosks.
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