How to get over finance envy

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FireSekr
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by FireSekr »

"Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by the sense of touch, because everyone can see but only a few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion"

Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
Last edited by FireSekr on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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midareff
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by midareff »

Long ago I learned the phrase.. "all show and no go". It seemed to pertain particularly well to some folks who had a big house near the water, a couple of Mercedes and so forth. I wondered until they had to sit in a public health care hospital for 8+ hours to be seen for a bad cold. Broke, behind and can't afford to take care of themselves. All show and no go.

I used to wonder how folks did it.... I'm in the Miami-Miami Beach area. Definitely HCOL.. I was saving 30% or more of my gross, keeping plain (paid for) cars for 10 years, living in a small apartment/townhouse and keeping all expenses down. .. kept that up for years/decades. Now I'm 65, retired, living on the water and driving the MB.

You are on the right path to future long term success. .. stick with it. The house and all else will come.
investingdad
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by investingdad »

When we first got married my wife and I were living in a HCOL outside Philadelphia. It seemed like people in our age group (30) at the time were all buying or building big homes and all of them had high end cars. I for one could not figure it out. We gave up on the area and moved a little ways towards a lower cost of living area and built a nice home that came at a price we were comfortable with. We put down our 33% and financed the other 2/3 of the price. We drove our 'normal' cars. Other people built in our neighborhood (it was new) and were spending as much or more than us and were driving similar or slightly nicer cars. But over the years information and conversation filtered my way and I concluded that many of them were clearly working at jobs for much less income than my wife and I were earning.

So what gave?

Well, it turns out that our county has all of their public information (deeds, mortgage recordings, etc) online. So, I did a bit of sleuthing (ok, snooping really) and what did I learn?

- our neighborhood rarely saw people putting more than 10% down
- second mortgages a year or two later were common
- with the real estate crunch, most people 10 years after building are STILL mortgaged for more than their home is worth based on taking out Refis that are not making any real progress on their original loans


A majority were on the debt train, plain and simple.
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danwhite77
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by danwhite77 »

Svensk Anga wrote:For reinforcement on your chosen path, you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door".

http://www.amazon.com/The-Millionaire-N ... +next+door

Those that put on a show of wealth often have little or nothing to back it up. It was a bit of a revelation to me how those in some occupations feel very pressured to keep up appearances. Feeling secure financially to me has more to do with the 401k balance than the show of McMansion or fancy ride.
I second this sentiment. The book will open your eyes. If you don't have the time or inclination to read the book, just check out the entry on the book in Wikipedia.
"While some mutual fund founders chose to make billions, he chose to make a difference." - Dedication to Jack Bogle in 'The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing'.
staythecourse
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by staythecourse »

It is funny how finance is a metaphor about life. There is NO return without risk. It works in finance and every aspect of life. YES you can have the same life as the next door neighboor, but don't think it is without risk, i.e. debt.

The problem with comparing oneself with others is that you only can compare what you see, i.e. materialism which nearly ANYONE can buy/ lease with leverage of credit. What you can't compare (and what counts) is bank accounts, levels of debt, savings rate, how well kid's education is covered, how long one has to work to pay off debt, etc...

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
swaption
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by swaption »

The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Last edited by swaption on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paddington79
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Paddington79 »

This has been a really eye-opening thread. I think my renting a home has gotten the better of me because it feels somehow "immature." Thanks for all of your replies!
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WolfpackFan
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by WolfpackFan »

This thread reminds me of when Clark Howard went to an elementary school to talk to kindergarteners about money. One of the question he asked the children is "What makes a person rich?" The kids were shouting out answers, "jewelry!", "swimming pool!", "mansion", etc... Clark just laughs, then tells the kids, "No, those are things that make a person poor".

Love me some Clark Howard.
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Kosmo
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Kosmo »

Paddington79 wrote:At times I want to yell, What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!? Anyone else feel this way - and anyone know how to snap out of it!!? I am not sure if I'm justly aggravated or misperceiving what is out there.
:beer
I feel exactly the same way. Sometimes I wonder if there's a secret they know that I don't know. The only way I've found to "snap out of it" is to use that as motivation. Something like if I put in some overtime this week I'll be that much closer to having enough money to pay cash for my next car. Or if I can restrain my spending for the next 6 months I'll have enough money saved to put a 25% down payment on the house instead of 20%.

Of course (just about daily) I have to remind myself that the appearance of wealth is not the same as wealth. But I can't tell the difference. I try to use that as a driver to build actual wealth and not just the appearance.

Aside: I don't buy the excuse most people are presenting that these others you see are probably in debt up to their eyeballs. It's possible, so I'm not outrightly discounting that idea. But an equally valid explanation would be that these people work really hard and don't part with their money easily. So what they have is worth it to them and they are dedicated to maintaining a high standard of outward appearance to match their high standards they hold themselves to.
Random Poster
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Random Poster »

swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Agreed.

I'm a bit dismayed at the amount of judging that is going on in this thread.
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JMacDonald
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by JMacDonald »

“You never know who's swimming naked until the tide goes out.”
― Warren Buffett
Best Wishes, | Joe
SumOfDivs
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by SumOfDivs »

My wife and I are in your age and income group and we also live in a HCOL(suburban Washington). We received no inheritance. We also max 457, 401k, and Roth accounts. When we were shopping for our house, I remembered what the author of the Millionaire Next Door advised: if you ever want to become wealthy, do not take a mortgage that is more than twice your annual income. Thus, we purchased a home that was not as nice as some of our coworkers. We paid it off completely in 5 years and we are now debt free. We drive a honda and toyota.

I recently checked my 457 account, and I have a profit of 94k since its inception in 2002. That makes all the sacrifices in the area of cars and homes worth it for me.

You may consider shopping around for a lease on a fancy car, and looking into a 30 year mortgage on the house you like. Then stop contributing to your 401k, roth, and 529 for a couple of months. Look at your cash flow and compare it to the extra expenses of the fancy car and the house. Could you afford these items(I think the answer will be yes)? Would it be worth it to you to lose gains in your accounts to fund the car and the house? Then decide if you would rather fund the consumption items or the savings accounts. For me, the choice is clear, and I do not envy the fancy. They will forever be attempting to live up to other peoples expectations of being rich and fancy. I prefer to be, in the near future, the low key millionaire next door that I read about.
DFWinvestor
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by DFWinvestor »

A lot of great points from many different angles. Another thing to consider is there are probably some things you may splurge on that these people don't (or at least some of them). For instance, when my friends and I all started earning good salaries a few years back I stuck with my old Camry while many upgraded to luxury vehicles, and I bought an affordable townhome while many of them bought huge houses.

Then the more I talked with them and spent time with them, the more I realized they would stress over a grocery bill, or if they were traveling would pinch pennies in ways that I didn't. One thought I was nuts for shopping at Whole Foods, and told me he thought nice dinners out were a huge waste of money too. I'd rather have these little indulgences than the fancy car. I could probably save $500/month or more if I shopped at a low end/inexpensive grocery store and didn't eat out as often or at cheaper restaurants. That right there would pay for a leased Mercedes.

And yes, some of them probably are uber wealthy and others are financing everything and digging a huge hole. But some might be just like you, only have made different choices on where they spend their extra cash.
playtothebeat
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by playtothebeat »

I, too, have financial envy, though from a different angle.
My wife and I make a combined $250+, and though we live in a high-cost-of-living area (Orange County, CA), that should be more than sufficient to live a pretty lavish life. We have a modest house. One nice car.
Unfortunately, she took out a 2nd mortgage in 2007 and accumulated a lot of debt over the years in her prior marriage. She's paid off all of the unsecured debt over the past 2 years. The house is still about 15% underwater. Our 2nd mortgage has a baloon due payment in 2021. We know that could be a real issue. We love our house and the neighborhood, and have no desire to move, so we're hoping the market recovers enough for us to refinance in the next few years.
We don't max out our retirement accounts - she maxed out her 401k last year, but took a substantial paycut this year and we made a decision not to contribute much to hers (no company match).

I look around at others who make $250k or much less (including many posters on this forum), and who don't stress about finances either because they are renters, or are not living with (bad) decisions made in the past. Many of them (you) max out all retirement accounts, are living virtually debt free, and have substantial amounts of net worth.

I'd love to be in the same club, but having said that, I try to remember that life is a marathon and not a sprint. Everyone finishes at their own pace.
FoolStreet
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by FoolStreet »

Svensk Anga wrote:For reinforcement on your chosen path, you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door".

http://www.amazon.com/The-Millionaire-N ... +next+door

Those that put on a show of wealth often have little or nothing to back it up. It was a bit of a revelation to me how those in some occupations feel very pressured to keep up appearances. Feeling secure financially to me has more to do with the 401k balance than the show of McMansion or fancy ride.

If I may add: Their followup book, "Stop Acting Rich," is not to be missed. Fabulous book. It really gave me a great perspective on perceptions of looking and acting rich. It completely changed the way I buy wine, for example :-). The authors categorize the rich into three classes:

1. the glittering rich, who are obviously rich because you can see their Mercedes, etc.

2. The aspirationals, who aspire to be rich. You can tell them because they drive Mercedes and serve absolutely vodka

3. The millionaires next door. You can't tell them because they probably drive Toyotas They are just not motivated by external displays of money.

One other thing worth mentioning.... It is easy to compare yourself to the obvious rich folks. It's easy to notice them! Force yourself to analytically start looking for the Toyotas. Count them. Play slug bug with them. You might be surprised.

But keep in mind, if you lives in a HCOLA then maybe 180 isn't that much. Working spouse may make 2-250 and the other spouse stays home. Or if both work...

Perhaps update your resume and see what else is out there?
NorCalDad
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by NorCalDad »

I agree with the sentiment that you should plow ahead and have confidence that you're doing what's best.

It's hard to assume that your friends and neighbors are being profligate without knowing more about their situations. If you live in a high COL area, it may be high COL for good reason - you may have a lot of well-paid professionals concentrated there. While $180k/year is more than most U.S. households earn in a year, it could be below median for your neighborhood. We earn a little more than that and feel well-off among our immediate peers - but know we can't compete with the tech and finance workers who have driven average 3-bedroom homes well beyond $1M in some parts here in California.

We chose to live in an area where our dollars could still go a long way. If you're feeling envious, I would take comfort in knowing that you're probably a better saver than most people - you wouldn't be here otherwise. But I would also try to evaluate whether your peers are wasting their money or have more of it. It's easy to eliminate envy in the former situation, but you may battle it for years to come if the latter situation is true.
HornedToad
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by HornedToad »

Paddington79 wrote:My husband and I are cautious people. We try to save faithfully, no credit card debt, no car debt, nothing. We save 22 percent per year in a 401k and contribute faithfully to our kids' college fund.
Meanwhile we are faithfully waiting til we have 20 percent down on a house plus extra savings of 30k. I guess the one area where we "indulge" is with eating out, but even then we're trying to cut back. We live pretty modestly and track our expenses.

However. We live in a HCOL. Everywhere I look people our age are buying new homes in these fancy locations, new cars, etc. Our gently used Toyota is one of the shabbier ones at our kids' school parking lot. And we live in a rental!
I would also consider whether you are being excessively conservative and could also consider loosening some areas if it provides value to you. i.e.

22% 401k: Do you want to retire early? If yes, this is good. If no, you can keep or consider cutting back a few percent to free up for house savings. You set this amount for a reason, make sure the reason is correct.
20% down + 30k extra: This is also very conservative. If you are happy with waiting then it's fine but you could consider just 20% down and not as much reserves needed initially or other options. It might make more financial sense to buy earlier at a lower interest rate/lower house value than wait until 20% down +30k extra and pay more after house prices/interest has gone up.

We bought our house sooner than expected and it worked out to be very financially beneficial.
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Methedras
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Methedras »

I am wildly envious of the financial health of the OP. :P
Cuzz35
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Cuzz35 »

As someone who prepares tax returns for wealthy individuals, I sometimes battle this also. It's someonewhat different as I don't see the huge mansions(unless I google their address :D ), cars or know about the nice vacations or whatever else goes on. I just see how much they make. I sometimes feel like I've definately messed up in life when I prepare a return for someone in their early 30's making $250k or ,many times alot, more. I mean I beleive I'm pretty smart and can could have been in a similiar situation had chosen a different career or not made some mistakes. But I didn't. I think of these guys I've done returns for making over $5million a year and can't even begin to imagine. Or, the person who made $800,000 and thinking, "wow if I just made that 1 year, my kid's college would be paid for, house would be paid off, etc. and I could go back to my regular day job" lol.

At then end of the day though I know I am very happy where I am. Amazing wife, a child I love, career I enjoy. I also realize I'm doing pretty well compared to most of the people I grew up with and am still friends with. So I would definately mimic others and just try to think about what you do have and what makes you happy.
BuckyBadger
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by BuckyBadger »

swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
I was trying to figure out how to say this, but swaption encapsulated my feelings quite well.

Maybe these people are swimming in debt - and maybe they're not. There are plenty of people with lucrative careers that have worked hard enough and had enough luck that they can have all these material posessions AND be saving money for a comfortable retirement AND be perfectly nice people who happen to be wealthy. You may be living among these people. Just because someone has an expensive car doesn't mean they can't afford it. And just because someone leases a car doesn't mean they can't afford it, it may just mean that they value having a new car every few years, in which case leasing is actually the most cost effective (for example).

This kind of reverse discrimination of people who spend money is kind of disgusting. Everyone doesn't have to be a boglehead to be worthy of their money.

Sure - maybe the neighbors are living a life that they can't afford. But maybe they are, and maybe they have different priorities.

In general I think people on this board exhibit far too much interest in the actions and behaviors of others. It means NOTHING to you if these people are wealthy trust fund babies, hard working doctors and laywers, or middle class people living beyone their means. Maybe it makes you feel better to think that people who have more than you can't afford it and are just faking it with debt, but it's also pretty likey (especially in a HCOL area) that they look like they have more than you because they DO have more than you.

Just focus on yourself. Ignore the noise.
core5
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by core5 »

ER2023 wrote:
linguini wrote:I think it is perfectly natural to feel envy of other people's possessions, especially when you interact very frequently with those who own more than you, whether they can afford it or not. Don't feel ashamed of your envy, but do try your hardest not to let it dictate how you live your life. The easiest way to remind yourself that you are actually very well off is to force yourself to think of and even interact with those who are far less fortunate than yourself. If I ever feel envious, I try to reflect on how there are others who are truly needy and cannot afford proper medicine, clothes, nutrition, education, or shelter. It helps to do a day of volunteer work or make an unscheduled donation to a charity for the needy every once in a while. It keeps you thinking about people who are worse off than you rather than people who seem better off than you, and it also helps put into perspective how much it means to be able to afford antibiotics and fresh water for your child and how little it means to be able to upgrade your Camry for a Lexus.

+1
+2
jtundra
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by jtundra »

We are a single income household with my husband in pharmacy school right now. Five years ago, I was single and renting a 800-900 SF basement in a nice house which was about $450 a month. Now we live in a nice 2000 SF house with my salary increasing about 15% in the last five years. But I feel much poorer than 5 years ago with all the added bills to pay. So you never know how those with big houses and nice cars truly feel. I don't really know what is going on with their lives and try not let how others choose to live their lives affect how I feel about my own. Once awhile, I'd say to my husband that when we move to another town after he graduates, I want to rent a house for a few years, even though we'll have our household income double then.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

OP - If you haven't already, check out this website: INGCompareMe.com - it's an anynomous survey based on various income ranges, their finances and personal finance behaviors. I kind of think it's representative of middle America, and contrary to what some have posted, quite a number of respondents are loaded in debt and have below average Boglehead levels of wealth. To each their own.
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steadyeddy
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by steadyeddy »

Think of the functions you learned in middle school math class. Compounding causes wealth to grow exponentially, but the "curve" only comes later in life. Conversely, those who save less will have more linear wealth which can help them appear richer sooner before being overtaken by the exponential curve. Those saving less benefit early, while those saving more benefit late--it's your choice to take either path.

This is where my wife would chime in and say, "Yes, but life doesn't give most of us a smooth ride like a simple function. Any of us could become rich, or poor, or sick, or dead at any moment so it doesn't make sense to compare either wealth or possessions because they're mostly unimportant." If I expressed strong feelings of envy to my beautiful wife I think she might send the contents of our bank accounts to UNICEF to help me get over it. She does a fantastic job of giving me perspective and I'm grateful for her.
Investing is boring
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Investing is boring »

I am 34, and my wife is 32. Combined we make between $300k - $400k per year (have for past 3 years and should continue) and live in a HCOL area. We have numerous friends who combined make less than $150k, and yet have bigger homes & better cars. They don't know what I make, but it is clear they assume I am far worse off then they are. I am fine with this. I offer opinions on finance when asked. When I talk about index investing, I get looks like my head isn't on straight. I send people to the bogleheads wiki if they want to debate any details. One friend (the "richest appearing one") asked me to review his mortgage offer. When I did, I saw $10k total in retirement savings and every other penny in the down payment to meet FHA standards. When I compare that with the $500k in savings that I will be at by end of this year, and think of how I haven't missed out on anything in life getting there, i feel very fortunate. That feeling now trumps envy whenever I see bling.
MnD
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by MnD »

Paddington79 wrote:At times I want to yell, What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!? Anyone else feel this way - and anyone know how to snap out of it!!? I am not sure if I'm justly aggravated or misperceiving what is out there.
The median household income is around $50,000 and the median household financial net worth is around $10,000.
At $180K income, a 22% savings rate plus debt reduction (which increases net worth just like savings), you seem to be doing OK. :happy
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Random Poster
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Random Poster »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:OP - If you haven't already, check out this website: INGCompareMe.com - it's an anynomous survey based on various income ranges, their finances and personal finance behaviors. I kind of think it's representative of middle America, and contrary to what some have posted, quite a number of respondents are loaded in debt and have below average Boglehead levels of wealth. To each their own.
I can't help but think that there's a lot of self-selecting bias in some of the answers.
investingdad
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by investingdad »

Investing is boring wrote:I am 34, and my wife is 32. Combined we make between $300k - $400k per year (have for past 3 years and should continue) and live in a HCOL area. We have numerous friends who combined make less than $150k, and yet have bigger homes & better cars. They don't know what I make, but it is clear they assume I am far worse off then they are. I am fine with this. I offer opinions on finance when asked. When I talk about index investing, I get looks like my head isn't on straight. I send people to the bogleheads wiki if they want to debate any details. One friend (the "richest appearing one") asked me to review his mortgage offer. When I did, I saw $10k total in retirement savings and every other penny in the down payment to meet FHA standards. When I compare that with the $500k in savings that I will be at by end of this year, and think of how I haven't missed out on anything in life getting there, i feel very fortunate. That feeling now trumps envy whenever I see bling.
Just keep in mind that your friend may not be showing every asset he's got. When we did our Refi, the mortgage broker told us exactly how much we should show in assets. His goal was to MINIMIZE what was shown to reduce the amount of paperwork and filings while still getting the rate and terms w/o any issues.
Investing is boring
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Investing is boring »

investingdad wrote:
Just keep in mind that your friend may not be showing every asset he's got. When we did our Refi, the mortgage broker told us exactly how much we should show in assets. His goal was to MINIMIZE what was shown to reduce the amount of paperwork and filings while still getting the rate and terms w/o any issues.
Thats good news. I hope it is the case. Need him as a golf buddy in retirement...
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BolderBoy
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by BolderBoy »

Paddington79 wrote:However. We live in a HCOL. Everywhere I look people our age are buying new homes in these fancy locations, new cars, etc. Our gently used Toyota is one of the shabbier ones at our kids' school parking lot. And we live in a rental!
I attended a party when I was 38, where there were folks from many walks of life outside of my employment sphere. Striking up a conversation with a young banker, I asked him about this very issue - that everyone I knew was driving BMWs had "things" up the wazoo and generally seemed to be living the dream while I was not (at least not THEIR dream.)

He gently pointed out that fully 80% (or more) of those people had no net worth, leased the cars and were in debt up to their eyeballs. This was an eye opener for me - I'd never considered "leasing" much less knew anything about it and the idea of living off credit cards was foreign. So I laid out my meager financial picture to him and he said I was even better off than he, not to worry, keep doing what I was doing and I'd have the last laugh.

He was right.
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Boglenaut
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Boglenaut »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:OP - If you haven't already, check out this website: INGCompareMe.com
Nice site. OP should visit.

We are definitely outliers when it comes to debt, savings, etc.
IlliniDave
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by IlliniDave »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:OP - If you haven't already, check out this website: INGCompareMe.com - it's an anynomous survey based on various income ranges, their finances and personal finance behaviors. I kind of think it's representative of middle America, and contrary to what some have posted, quite a number of respondents are loaded in debt and have below average Boglehead levels of wealth. To each their own.
Thanks for the link, I found it interesting. I just edged (actually, will next year) across the low threshold of one of the income brackets, but still hold my own within the group. About $250K less debt :), about $25K behind on retirement savings :( . Interestingly they didn't include the topic of net worth.
Don't do something. Just stand there!
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auntJovie
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by auntJovie »

Cash wrote:...Seriously, I think there are studies that show that people are happier when they perceive themselves to be near the top of the local totem pole.
Three ways to do this:

1. Change your circumstances so you're at the top of the totem pole. (e.g. ex-pats who live like kings in third-world countries; we have friends who moved to the Phillipines for this reason.)

2. Change how you measure so you're at the top of the totem pole in your circumstances. (e.g. Boglehead attitude change: measure on net worth and prudence instead of consumption, and voila!, you're probably doing better than most anyone around!)

3. Change your comparison population, e.g. what linguini wrote above:
linguini wrote:The easiest way to remind yourself that you are actually very well off is to force yourself to think of and even interact with those who are far less fortunate than yourself...
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meowcat
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by meowcat »

Paddington79 wrote:My husband and I are cautious people. We try to save faithfully, no credit card debt, no car debt, nothing. We save 22 percent per year in a 401k and contribute faithfully to our kids' college fund.
Meanwhile we are faithfully waiting til we have 20 percent down on a house plus extra savings of 30k. I guess the one area where we "indulge" is with eating out, but even then we're trying to cut back. We live pretty modestly and track our expenses.
However. We live in a HCOL. Everywhere I look people our age are buying new homes in these fancy locations, new cars, etc. Our gently used Toyota is one of the shabbier ones at our kids' school parking lot. And we live in a rental!

Either we are in the wrong line of work (we make almost 180k combined) or we are doing something wrong, I can't help but feel. At our age (33) I wonder why we aren't owning a home yet -- and the homes we're looking at are not fancy!
Sometimes it gets depressing. Our two strikes against us, if any, are (a) not being born to money or (b) having grad school debt (which we pay extra on monthly!).

At times I want to yell, What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!? Anyone else feel this way - and anyone know how to snap out of it!!? I am not sure if I'm justly aggravated or misperceiving what is out there.
:beer
Here's what I do.
When I'm sitting at a red light in my 11 year old Honda and a guy in a brand new, $100,000 Mercedes pulls up right next to me, I simply smile and revel in the fact that the odds of my portfolio being larger than his are like 87%. And that's if he even has a portfolio. That's staggering.
Read the millionaire Next Door, Great book.
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artthomp
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by artthomp »

There's a fairly dated book published in 1996 by Thomas J. Stanley and WQilliam D. Danko titled "The Millionaire Next Door". Of course $1,000,000 isn't so much money anymore but their conclusions might help you reconile your finance envy. You appear to be on the road to becoming wealthy to me in contrast to the free spending friends you mentioned (leasing expensive cars, living in luxury homes at an early age, etc.)
Art
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meowcat
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by meowcat »

swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Unfortunately, statistics prove otherwise. Never confuse high income with wealth, they are not the same. Most high income earners, just like middle and low income earners, have little to no savings. Truly wealthy people that drive BMW's, live in mansions, and are members of the local country club are the exception, not the rule.
What the bold print givith, the fine print taketh away. | -meowcat
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

artthomp wrote:There's a fairly dated book published in 1996 by Thomas J. Stanley and WQilliam D. Danko titled "The Millionaire Next Door". Of course $1,000,000 isn't so much money anymore but their conclusions might help you reconile your finance envy. You appear to be on the road to becoming wealthy to me in contrast to the free spending friends you mentioned (leasing expensive cars, living in luxury homes at an early age, etc.)
$1MM may not be so much, but it can still purchase a home outright in much of the country, can buy you opportunities that the fellow with $10K in the bank can not obtain, can litterally assure that you will not be eating cat food tacos for retirement. A million dollars is a significant amount of money, even in most of the well-to-do towns and cities. I'd take a million in cash over a job that may or may not be there tomorrow.
Though, you will not be living like you've won Donald Trump lotto (for those Danny Glover + LW aficionados).
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
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SHL
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by SHL »

I find contentment by not comparing my insides to other people's outsides.
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by MathWizard »

I understand your frustration. I have felt it too, living in a communuity where it seems
like every family is making huge amounts of money.

If you want objective measures for US households, you can use the online tool at:
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/

for both income and wealth.

I am in the 80-90 percentile for both. The tool shows your
income is in the 90-100 percentile, you can check it out for wealth.
So even though I am surrounded by people who make much more,
I know that the vast majority don't.


Saving 22%, the bulk of your wealth accumulation in the first 8-14 years will be
linear, due mainly to your contributions, not earnings. After about 14-18 years,
the earnings start to be more than your contributions. That's when you see
the exponential nature of the compounding.

Also, remember that you are only 33. You haven't been earning "big bucks" for that long.
I did not own a house until I was 41. 14 years later, I could nearly pay it off with what I keep
in the bank, and my wife and I have taken two trips to Europe and taken family vacations
nearly every year. No inheritance was involved, just steady savings and no big lifestyle creep.

Those first dollars you put away will grow the most. You just have to have patience.
Last edited by MathWizard on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dickenjb
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by dickenjb »

I agree with the others.

I tell my kids who comment on other's fancy cars, etc. that you can only see the asset side of other's balance sheets. Not the liability side.

Paddington, you are doing the right thing funding your retirement plans and paying down your educational loans.

Your revenge will come when you are 55 or 60 and financially independent whereas the "grasshoppers" will be working until they are 70 (if they can!).
Perpetual
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Perpetual »

swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Statistically speaking, this is not very likely. There are a large number of studies that have thoroughly documented people's propensity to spend well beyond their means in order to show off to or keep up with others. While a *few* of the people in OP's situation may be genuine high earners, most of them probably are not.

In the end though, the core message behind all these posts still stands: stop caring about how other people live their lives and instead focus on your own comfort and financial well-being.
Investing is boring
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Investing is boring »

MathWizard wrote:If you want objective measures for US households, you can use the online tool at:
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/

for both income and wealth.

I am in the 80-90 percentile for both. The tool shows your
income is in the 90-100 percentile, you can check it out for wealth.
So even though I am surrounded by people who make much more,
I know that the vast majority don't.


Saving 22%, the bulk of your wealth accumulation in the first 8-14 years will be
linear, due mainly to your contributions, not earnings. After about 14-18 years,
the earnings start to be more than your contributions. That's when you see
the exponential nature of the compounding.
I am in the 97% in income, and 77% in wealth. Seems about right at age 34.
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mlebuf
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by mlebuf »

Calling it "finance envy" is a misnomer because we usually don't know what other peoples' balance sheets looks like. The problem described seems more like spending envy.

Unless you are Bill Gates, somebody else on the playground will always have bigger toys. Welcome to the club.

One of life's biggest ongoing dilemmas is making the choice between consumption and saving. All of us, who aren't heirs to great wealth, achieved and maintain financial independence by doing one simple thing: We lived at a level less than our incomes.

According to Morgan Housel, a young and brilliant financial writer, "Wealth is what you don't see."
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2 ... t-see.aspx
Best wishes, | Michael | | Invest your time actively and your money passively.
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Rager1
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Rager1 »

Here are some quotes from Thomas J. Stanley's book, ""Stop Acting Rich and Start Living Like a Millionaire" that I mentioned earlier:


• In America, 86% of all prestige/luxury vehicles are driven by non-millionaires.

• Most millionaires do not reach the millionaire threshold until they are near 50 years of age. Most became millionaires, in large part, because they led a frugal lifestyle.

• Only about 7% of new passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2006 were purchased by millionaires.

• More than 93% of boating enthusiasts are not millionaires.

• Most millionaires do not own a vacation home. 64% of those surveyed never owned a vacation home, beach bungalow, or mountain cabin.

• Most millionaires do not live in homes that have a market value of $1M or more. About 90 percent live in homes valued at under $1M.

• 94% of the millionaires surveyed bought their most recently acquired motor vehicle; they did not lease.

• Most millionaires do not reach the millionaire threshold until they are near 50 years of age. Most became millionaires, in large part, because they led a frugal lifestyle.

• Most of the people who make up this low-profile millionaire segment never earned very high incomes. If fact, their median household annual realized income (from all sources) of this group was $113,334 at the time they first reached millionaire status.

Ed
swaption
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by swaption »

Perpetual wrote:
swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Statistically speaking, this is not very likely. There are a large number of studies that have thoroughly documented people's propensity to spend well beyond their means in order to show off to or keep up with others. While a *few* of the people in OP's situation may be genuine high earners, most of them probably are not.
You have absolutely no basis for the above statements. For all you know the above poster could live in Greenwich, CT or Palo Alto, or wherever. But that's all besides the point. There is no reason to infer anything about these other people other than perhaps to make yourself feel better, but that's an awfully shallow pursuit. Maybe some of those overlevered people will blow up, lose their houses, and then move away. Or maybe they will become wealthy. So what.
freebeer
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by freebeer »

meowcat wrote: Unfortunately, statistics prove otherwise. Never confuse high income with wealth, they are not the same. Most high income earners, just like middle and low income earners, have little to no savings. Truly wealthy people that drive BMW's, live in mansions, and are members of the local country club are the exception, not the rule.
Got any actual statistics to "prove" that "Most high income earners, just like middle and low income earners, have little to no savings"? Because the information I can google up indicates that "people making more money save a bigger chunk of their paychecks", with saving rates increasing "sharply at higher income levels, with the saving rate estimated at 51 cents on the dollar for the top 1% of the income distribution and 37 cents on the dollar for the top 5%". (source: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-sa ... vel-2013-3 ).
Perpetual
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Perpetual »

swaption wrote:
Perpetual wrote:
swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Statistically speaking, this is not very likely. There are a large number of studies that have thoroughly documented people's propensity to spend well beyond their means in order to show off to or keep up with others. While a *few* of the people in OP's situation may be genuine high earners, most of them probably are not.
You have absolutely no basis for the above statements. For all you know the above poster could live in Greenwich, CT or Palo Alto, or wherever. But that's all besides the point. There is no reason to infer anything about these other people other than perhaps to make yourself feel better, but that's an awfully shallow pursuit. Maybe some of those overlevered people will blow up, lose their houses, and then move away. Or maybe they will become wealthy. So what.

Please don't ever quote me out of context again. Specifically, the rest of my post (which you left out) is very relevant, and in fact is in agreement with you.
In the end though, the core message behind all these posts still stands: stop caring about how other people live their lives and instead focus on your own comfort and financial well-being.
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White Coat Investor
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by White Coat Investor »

22% for retirement while renting?

Why not cut back to 10% for a year or two and get that downpayment knocked out.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
swaption
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by swaption »

Perpetual wrote:
swaption wrote:
Perpetual wrote:
swaption wrote:The responses here frustrate me and demonstrate an unfortunate bias. While no doubt there are many out there living beyond their means, I think it is a terrrible idea to use that as some form of personal rationalization. There are (possibly a far greater number) out there that are just plain wealthier. Ultimately, you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. There could be family money. There could be people with lucrative careers. In affluent communities, there is also a statistical bias of the "winners circle" effect. People may have taken risks in their career, but it is more likely that you are living among primarily the winners. People may have bought their first house circa 1995 - 2000, and then rolled equity gains into a larger nicer house. $180k of income may not be all that much in your community. It may be, but it doesn't have to be.

In this country, for the most part you reap what you sow. You can also be lucky or unlucky. People need to come to terms with these realities of life, and as well their lot in life. It is obviously never wise to live beyond your means in an effort to keep up with the Joneses. But ultimately, the contrived schadenfreude regarding the materialism of others ends up just being another form of using outward influences as some form of personal rationalization. I'm not an advocate of either.
Statistically speaking, this is not very likely. There are a large number of studies that have thoroughly documented people's propensity to spend well beyond their means in order to show off to or keep up with others. While a *few* of the people in OP's situation may be genuine high earners, most of them probably are not.
You have absolutely no basis for the above statements. For all you know the above poster could live in Greenwich, CT or Palo Alto, or wherever. But that's all besides the point. There is no reason to infer anything about these other people other than perhaps to make yourself feel better, but that's an awfully shallow pursuit. Maybe some of those overlevered people will blow up, lose their houses, and then move away. Or maybe they will become wealthy. So what.

Please don't ever quote me out of context again. Specifically, the rest of my post (which you left out) is very relevant, and in fact is in agreement with you.
In the end though, the core message behind all these posts still stands: stop caring about how other people live their lives and instead focus on your own comfort and financial well-being.
I didn't include it because it completely contradicts your prior statement. If you genuinely don't care then there is no need to make any inferences in the first place, particularly ones for which there is no apparent basis. It's like telling someone they are fat, but that's ok because they are healthy. Context may not be particularly relevant to the response.
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stemikger
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by stemikger »

Paddington79 wrote:My husband and I are cautious people. We try to save faithfully, no credit card debt, no car debt, nothing. We save 22 percent per year in a 401k and contribute faithfully to our kids' college fund.
Meanwhile we are faithfully waiting til we have 20 percent down on a house plus extra savings of 30k. I guess the one area where we "indulge" is with eating out, but even then we're trying to cut back. We live pretty modestly and track our expenses.
However. We live in a HCOL. Everywhere I look people our age are buying new homes in these fancy locations, new cars, etc. Our gently used Toyota is one of the shabbier ones at our kids' school parking lot. And we live in a rental!

Either we are in the wrong line of work (we make almost 180k combined) or we are doing something wrong, I can't help but feel. At our age (33) I wonder why we aren't owning a home yet -- and the homes we're looking at are not fancy!
Sometimes it gets depressing. Our two strikes against us, if any, are (a) not being born to money or (b) having grad school debt (which we pay extra on monthly!).

At times I want to yell, What are we doing wrong and what are "THEY" doing right!? Anyone else feel this way - and anyone know how to snap out of it!!? I am not sure if I'm justly aggravated or misperceiving what is out there.
:beer
99% of it is just an illusion. In the book the Automatic Millionaire by David Bach he calls these people Big Hat, no Cattle. They look like they are living the American Dream, but when you look at their finances they are drowning in debt and not saving for the future.

On a side note, looking at other people and comparing yourself is very normal and most of us probably do it without even realizing it from time to time. However, you can turn this around by looking at the other side of life. There are people who are having a hard time putting food on the table and making $180K a year is as far away to them as winning the lottery. And of course the ultimate hardship is watching people go through a life and death illness of themselves or a loved one. So when you look at it that way you are very fortunate.

You are doing the right thing for your family by living the way you are living. You will see your day will come and you will really own your life and not just rent it like most are doing these days. Good Luck! :happy
Choose Simplicity ~ Stay the Course!! ~ Press on Regardless!!!
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