Runners Knee...new shoes, orthotics, what?

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Runners Knee...new shoes, orthotics, what?

Postby guitarguy » Wed May 22, 2013 12:47 pm

I've been jogging off and on (probably once a week on average) for close to 10 years. All of a sudden this spring I've been getting what (from dangerous internet reading) I believe to be "Runner's Knee". [Medical condition removed by admin LadyGeek]

Not looking for medical advice so much, but wondering if any runners out there can offer advice. I have what I think are pretty good athletic shoes, although they're not technically running shoes, I think they're cross training shoes or something like that. Anyone have an opinion on whether or not full on running shoes would be a wise investment? I'm thinking maybe so, but I'm not sure.

I also saw these Dr. Scholls inserts that specifically say they're helpful in preventing runner's knee...maybe these would be worth a shot before buying new shoes since the ones I have are only a year old and they're in great shape?

A friend also recommended full on orthodics, which is what he got to cure his shin splint problem.

I do run on concrete which I know isn't optimal, but running on a track or treadmill isn't an option. I run with my dog! :D

Any advice would be appreciated...
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Blues » Wed May 22, 2013 12:56 pm

I no longer run but the right shoes and orthotic inserts are certainly a plus. Do you pronate? Supinate? High arches? Low arches? Heavy or light body type?

There are a lot of variables that can effect your running, including the cant of the street or pavement you run on, your stride, heel strike or toe strike etc.

Some folks have treated mild chondrolmalacia issues with bands like Cho-Pat etc but if I were you I'd be very careful and tread lightly. (Pun sort of intended.)

Injuries can become chronic and very disheartening.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Rupert » Wed May 22, 2013 1:02 pm

You definitely need official running shoes, ones designed for the structure your particular foot. Don't buy them in a general shoe store. Go to a store that specializes in running shoes. Take your old shoes with you when you go. There will be someone there who can look at your foot and your old shoes and tell you what sort of new shoes you need. Running distances in cross trainers is a horrible idea. I can tell you that much. But you need to see an ortho for a diagnosis on your knee problem and not ask us. Could be runner's knee, could be bursitis, could be lots of things. Alternatively, you can stop running. Running is horrible for your knees. I stopped running and started playing soft-court tennis instead. I've never felt better.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby VictoriaF » Wed May 22, 2013 1:06 pm

How did people run before modern shoes became available?

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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Blues » Wed May 22, 2013 1:06 pm

VictoriaF wrote:How did people run before modern shoes became available?

Victoria


They drove. :twisted:
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Levett » Wed May 22, 2013 1:15 pm

I had to stop running and playing tennis and basketball due to persistent achilles tendinitis.

But I was able to carry on much longer than expected by getting into a university sports clinic (my doc was the men's ice hockey physician).

I had to bring in all my shoes (not just athletic) and was put through several physical tests.

All my shoes were tossed and I did several weeks of rehab, but now there are plenty of physical activities I can do without any kind of pain or discomfort.

If you have a reputable sports clinic nearby, it might be worth your while to get a referral.

Good luck (I still really miss running outdoors!).

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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby damjam » Wed May 22, 2013 1:17 pm

As a spouse of a former marathon runner, I have learned that 6 to 9 months is the maximum for wear. I know it sounds like a short amount of time, and you are going to say you run less frequently, but the truth is the shoes get stiff after a short amount of time. The padding in the shoe looses the ability to function properly.
I bet if you try new sneakers that that alone will make a tremendous difference. If the problem persists after trying new sneakers then see a podiatrist.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby aerofreaky11 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:19 pm

How did people run before modern shoes became available?


Actually, if you run barefoot you prevent most of the injuries brought about by modern athletic shoes. So, that is the answer. I know there is a "fad" to run barefoot, but historically, that is how it was done. Even before it was cool-- The modern running shoe makes you heel strike. Most of the issues were brought on when this occurred. Note the difference between even Converse and running shoes these days? Yeah, the wedge.

Just buying running shoes will probably not solve the problem fully. You need to replace them every several months 2-300 miles. Better yet, seek a professional running trainer and they can give you some hints to have better form.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby frugaltype » Wed May 22, 2013 1:21 pm

VictoriaF wrote:How did people run before modern shoes became available?

Victoria


Barefoot.

I have found Dr. Scholl's stuff worthless.

See an ortho doc, one who specializes in that area of the body.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby david99 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:25 pm

I recommend using the leg extension and leg curl machines at the gym. You lose muscle mass as you get older. Stronger muscles will help support your kees. Also, I recommend buying new running shoes. I used to have some knee pain going up stairs but I don't have pain since using the leg curl and leg extension machines at the gym. I also use other machines at the gym to build muscle in my legs. And I jog three times a week on a treadmill.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Epsilon Delta » Wed May 22, 2013 1:28 pm

I find that jogging once a week is just the wrong frequency. A week off is enough to allow the big muscles to recover from fatigue (so I can go hard) but not enough to allow smaller issues (including blisters and knee pain) to fully heal, and it's not frequently enough to adapt to the exercise. Shorter runs two or three times a week work better for me. In theory appropriate weight lifting could complement a weekly run, but you would need expert help to develop a program that works the right parts.

You may also want to consider other types of exercise, skating, swimming, rowing, cycling etc. are easier on the joints if you have good form.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby momar » Wed May 22, 2013 1:32 pm

I injured my knee squatting heavy and running too often. I always had problems running after that even if I went pretty easy with plenty of rest. I run barefoot now, and have no problems. I recommend it.

There are plenty of minimalist shoes if you don't want to go full fledged barefoot.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby momar » Wed May 22, 2013 1:33 pm

And don't do leg extensions! Those are murder on your knees.

If you want to strength train, squat.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Material Guy » Wed May 22, 2013 1:41 pm

I had the exact problem a few months back. I run regularly on a treadmill in winter but starting getting these pains in my knees particularly when climbing stairs. After some reading, I realized this might be due to excessive wear of my shoes. I got a new pair of running shoes and that did the trick. The pain completely disappeared.

Make sure you get good running shoes and also about 1/2 size larger than your regular size. Ideally go to a specialty shoes store where they can check your foot type and stride.

I would really avoid running on concrete.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby david99 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:46 pm

momar wrote:And don't do leg extensions! Those are murder on your knees.

If you want to strength train, squat.


I agree that leg extensions can hurt your knees if you use too much weight. And squats can also hurt your knees if you use too much weight. The trick is using enough weight to build muscle but not pushing to the max. At least this is what works for me.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Mister Whale » Wed May 22, 2013 1:53 pm

VictoriaF wrote:How did people run before modern shoes became available?

Victoria


How did people live into "old age" before modern vaccines became available?
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Rupert » Wed May 22, 2013 1:56 pm

VictoriaF wrote:How did people run before modern shoes became available?

Victoria


As others have said, they ran barefoot. But then they died at age 30 with bad knees.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby c.Alvin » Wed May 22, 2013 1:58 pm

Long distance runners are seldom 100% healthy. There is always something going on with knees, ankles, or feet. I have used an assortment of pads, tape, wraps, and bandages for running long distances. [Medical advice removed by admin LadyGeek]

4. Shoes are always a challenge. You need a heavy shock absorbing shoe for training. Save the light shoes for race day. When you find one that works get a couple extra pairs. The shoe company will discontinue the model - count on it.
5. Take a close look at the soles of your running shoes. The soles will tell you a lot about how your feet are striking the ground. An improper stride can cause major issues in your joints. Replace your shoes when they BEGIN to show signs of wear. They may only last a few months.
6. Do your research on the type shoe that works best for you. If in doubt visit a shop that specializes in running shoes such as a New Balance shoe outlet.

http://www.runnersworld.com/

Good luck,
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Hector » Wed May 22, 2013 1:59 pm

I would go to specialty running shoes store and get right shoes. I agree that shoes industries are marketing a lot of stuff and we might not need as much as they advertise, but I think it is important to wear right shoes at least based on pronation. See how you land and what kind of shoes (natural, neutral, support or motion control) are right for you.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby stoptothink » Wed May 22, 2013 2:06 pm

david99 wrote:I recommend using the leg extension and leg curl machines at the gym. You lose muscle mass as you get older. Stronger muscles will help support your kees. Also, I recommend buying new running shoes. I used to have some knee pain going up stairs but I don't have pain since using the leg curl and leg extension machines at the gym. I also use other machines at the gym to build muscle in my legs. And I jog three times a week on a treadmill.


I recommend strength training as well, but do not get close to a leg extension machine. Not only is it a completely non-functional movement, but it is exponentially harder on knees than squatting. Squat, deadlift, lunge and stay away from isolation movements and machines.

I run in "minimalist" shoes, shoes with zero drop and minimal or no cushioning which encourage midfoot striking. If you intend to run barefoot, you better work up and do it slow; people used to run barefoot, but they weren't running on concrete and pavement. I am a huge proponent of midfoot striking, but everybody's gait is different, there is no one-size-fits all in regards to what footwear will assist you in staying injury-free.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby guitarguy » Wed May 22, 2013 3:30 pm

Thanks for all the replies! :)

First off, I should note that running is only supplemental to my exercise routine. I've been working with primarily bodyweight circuits of different types and really enjoying those. In addition to these I also walk (power walk) 5-6 days a week and try to go for a light jog 1-2 times a week. I do this more for enjoyment than anything else. I usually run 2-3 miles at a fairly light pace. Nothing extraordinary.

Regarding the gym...I've been there done that. I'm just really enjoying this bodyweight stuff now. No commute, no machines, no nonsense. In fact, I finally did a full on dead hang zero cheating chin-up last week. First time ever for me. Small victory, but progress nonetheless. On a quest to be able to do 10.

As far as weight goes, I have an average body type. 6'3", 205lb, moderately athletic, 15% body fat. I started running in college at around 40-45 lbs heavier (yeah...I was fat then) than I am now and haven't ever had this problem before so I don't think weight is the issue. I also have been running the same various routes through my neighborhood for the last 5 years and haven't had problems, so no abrupt changes with surface or anything either.

The more I think about it the more I think the shoes are really the only variable. I bought them last May when my brother and I did a round of Insanity (which actually is insane btw...but I have never been in better shape!). I may have run in them last spring/summer a handful of times. This is the first time they're gaining any real mileage running. Perhaps a new pair of shoes are indeed in order.

Can anyone by chance recommend a running shoe store in Metro Detroit?? I admittdly haven't looked around too hard but I haven't the slightest idea of where one is around here. I'm sure they're around though.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby momar » Wed May 22, 2013 4:34 pm

Rupert wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:How did people run before modern shoes became available?

Victoria


As others have said, they ran barefoot. But then they died at age 30 with bad knees.

The modern, elevated heel, padded running shoe was invented in the 70s. There is no evidence that I am aware of that this type of shoe has decreased injuries. There is ample evidence that it causes our running mechanics to change.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby harrychan » Wed May 22, 2013 6:13 pm

c.Alvin wrote:
1. It could be a temporary thing due to over training or change in running surfaces.

Good luck,
c.Alvin


I 2nd this. I was running around the Rose Bowl near Pasadena when I notice a severe pain on my left ankle after I ran. Turns out the ground I was running was not level so I was pounding the ground more on my left side. Take a note at where you run and see if the roads are level. Chances are, it is concave for water run off. [Medical advice removed by admin LadyGeek]
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby 325e » Wed May 22, 2013 6:31 pm

My guess is [Medical condition removed by admin LadyGeek]. But that is a guess. I would google and try [Medical advice removed by admin LadyGeek] and see what happens.

I use barefoot shoes (Merrell, but there are others). They take some getting used to and you have to start out slow but I think they reduce injuries.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby TxAg » Wed May 22, 2013 7:19 pm

Read "Born To Run"

I don't run barefoot, but I do use minimalist shoes....both for running and everyday life. It made a difference with my lower back pain.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby mike143 » Wed May 22, 2013 8:14 pm

I found that running with finger toes (Vibram FiveFingers) and squatting as part of my exercise has mostly cured my plantar fasciitis. With the "natural" shoes I have to think to run, if I don't I will injure myself. I can only get a mile in before my form gets sloppy. I am 6'2" 325. If I try to run with regular running shoes my knee will start hurting in 30 seconds. My understanding you either have to baby your body and it will only get worse (weaker) or strength it through natural movements.

When I started squatting I used a broom stick, my hips were not use to the motion and I couldn't use weight outside my own body weight. Now I am squatting 135 and haven't moved up for a long time. Don't know why just don't have the proper balance to move the weight up. I had a few failures in a squat rack when I tried to increase the weight, but that is what it is for.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby stoptothink » Wed May 22, 2013 8:17 pm

TxAg wrote:Read "Born To Run"

I don't run barefoot, but I do use minimalist shoes....both for running and everyday life. It made a difference with my lower back pain.


There is some merit to the book and I am a proponent of forefoot ground contact, but people need to understand that there is a lot of hyperbole injected in. The only people (outside of Bikila) who have and can run fast barefoot are those who do not run on pavement. Regardless of gait, running with little shoe cushioning requires you minimize ground contact forces. This means short, choppy, and light steps, and running slow...really slow. For me, running anything above about 7:30/mile is mindnumbingly boring, and I know countless minimalist runners and very very few who are maintaining that pace. The new rage in distance running right now is Hoka, which are zero drop but insanely cushioned shoes http://www.thetrishop.com/brands/hoka-one-one.html. I personally run in Saucony Hattoris and Inov-8s, which are very "minimalist," but I am also aware that anything above a 5k is asking for injury regardless of my forefoot prose-esque gait.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby mike143 » Wed May 22, 2013 8:26 pm

stoptothink wrote:This means short, choppy, and light steps, and running slow...really slow.

Agreed. This is the best I can do at 6'2" 325.

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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby LadyGeek » Wed May 22, 2013 8:30 pm

As a reminder:

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Questions on medical issues are beyond the scope of the forum. If you are looking for medical information online, I'd like to suggest you start with the Medical Library Association's User's Guide to Finding and Evaluating Health Information on the Web which, in addition to providing guidance on evaluating health information, includes lists of their top recommended sites in the following categories: consumer health, cancer, diabetes and heart disease. They also provide a larger, but less frequently updated, list called Top 100 List: Health Websites You Can Trust
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby atwood » Wed May 22, 2013 8:46 pm

Be careful with minimalist shoes. A lot of people using them are suffering [medical condition removed by admin LadyGeek] problems.

I had runner's knee and saw a sports medicine doctor. He recommended [medical advice removed by admin LadyGeek]. This worked like a charm for me.

Also try to go to a dedicated runner's store to get advice regarding your running shoes. Take in your old shoes so they can see the wear pattern.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Cunobelinus » Thu May 23, 2013 3:56 am

Shoes and orthotics aside, consider taking a few weeks off from running and start a physical therapy routine to strengthen the the muscles in the hips, legs, and your core.. and consider some dedicated stretching. Runnersworld.com has many good videos for short workouts that target core/hip/leg muscles that are oft ignored by most everyone, serious runners included. I have personally found that to be the easiest way to rid yourself of various running pains. The hardest thing is keeping up that routine once you start running again and don't feel any pain.

And though this wasn't your initial question, the mention of running shoes invariably turns into an ideological clash between shod and unshod (or minimalist) folks. There are zealots on either side of the debate of minimalist vs. modern running shoe (and even between minimalist and barefoot). You should pick whichever one you feel is proper, and go with it. The only "right" choice is the one you pick and stick with. I have been successful both shod and unshod.

guitarguy wrote: I do run on concrete which I know isn't optimal, but running on a track or treadmill isn't an option. I run with my dog! :D

I don't know that running on concrete or tarmac is "bad" for you. It is certainly different from running on trails or grass, but that doesn't make it "bad." Something you should consider is the crown of the road/sidewalk, that is, if it isn't entirely level, it may make you more likely to run into issues from constantly running on an off-kilter surface.

I must post the obvious disclaimer however: if you do switch to a minimalist/barefoot running style, consider it the same as coming to running having never run a mile in your life. Technique is just as important in minimalist/barefoot running as it is in swimming. And no one ever got hurt by going too slow, either pace-wise or mileage-wise.


stoptothink wrote:
TxAg wrote:Read "Born To Run"

I don't run barefoot, but I do use minimalist shoes....both for running and everyday life. It made a difference with my lower back pain.


There is some merit to the book and I am a proponent of forefoot ground contact, but people need to understand that there is a lot of hyperbole injected in. The only people (outside of Bikila) who have and can run fast barefoot are those who do not run on pavement. Regardless of gait, running with little shoe cushioning requires you minimize ground contact forces. This means short, choppy, and light steps, and running slow...really slow. For me, running anything above about 7:30/mile is mindnumbingly boring, and I know countless minimalist runners and very very few who are maintaining that pace.


Consider also how many non-minimalist folks run slower than 7:30min/mile in all sorts of footwear. It isn't related to the gear they have on their feet, though listening to the barefoot runners, they tend to run for the sake of enjoyment and not to achieve a certain pace. I happen to do my LSD (long slow distance) at a 7:00-7:30min/mile pace, either barefoot or in Vibrams (on the road) or in my New Balance MT-10s (on the trail). I know many folks who run much faster than 7:30min/mile in Vibrams. Perhaps you just have found a group of folks who aren't concerned with speed. When I run with my fiancee, we run between 9-10min/miles, and I don't find it mind-numbingly boring. I suppose it depends on what you're looking to get out of running.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby frugaltype » Thu May 23, 2013 4:29 am

guitarguy wrote:I do run on concrete which I know isn't optimal, but running on a track or treadmill isn't an option. I run with my dog! :D


How are your dog's paws doing on the concrete?
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Cunobelinus » Thu May 23, 2013 4:36 am

frugaltype wrote:
guitarguy wrote:I do run on concrete which I know isn't optimal, but running on a track or treadmill isn't an option. I run with my dog! :D


How are your dog's paws doing on the concrete?


Dogs' paws will adapt, just as human's feet will adapt. Callouses are good.

I live in an area with a lot of sunlight and very warm temperatures throughout the year. Based on my experience trying to run barefoot in the afternoons, I would strongly recommend against running with your dog in the afternoons on pavement. Just try going for a short walk, barefoot, with your dog to understand what your dog's pads are enduring. You may appreciate an early morning or late evening run a bit more then.

My feet blistered in several places after running 2 miles around noon, primarily on concrete with a little bit of asphalt. A week prior to this, I had easily done 4-5 miles at a time on pavement just after dusk with no issues.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby HardKnocker » Thu May 23, 2013 7:37 am

If your knee is bothering you are probably running too much.

After a certain point beating your knees and body up by running on hard surfaces is a losing game.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby guitarguy » Thu May 23, 2013 7:47 am

frugaltype wrote:
guitarguy wrote:I do run on concrete which I know isn't optimal, but running on a track or treadmill isn't an option. I run with my dog! :D


How are your dog's paws doing on the concrete?


His paws are fine. I don't run that often or that far and have never seen any cracking, chaffing, or blisters or anything. Plus he's been conditioned up to it. Pretty certain he enjoys jogging even more than I do.

Thanks for the concern.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Rodc » Thu May 23, 2013 8:16 am

guitarguy wrote:Thanks for all the replies! :)

First off, I should note that running is only supplemental to my exercise routine. I've been working with primarily bodyweight circuits of different types and really enjoying those. In addition to these I also walk (power walk) 5-6 days a week and try to go for a light jog 1-2 times a week. I do this more for enjoyment than anything else. I usually run 2-3 miles at a fairly light pace. Nothing extraordinary.

Regarding the gym...I've been there done that. I'm just really enjoying this bodyweight stuff now. No commute, no machines, no nonsense. In fact, I finally did a full on dead hang zero cheating chin-up last week. First time ever for me. Small victory, but progress nonetheless. On a quest to be able to do 10.

As far as weight goes, I have an average body type. 6'3", 205lb, moderately athletic, 15% body fat. I started running in college at around 40-45 lbs heavier (yeah...I was fat then) than I am now and haven't ever had this problem before so I don't think weight is the issue. I also have been running the same various routes through my neighborhood for the last 5 years and haven't had problems, so no abrupt changes with surface or anything either.

The more I think about it the more I think the shoes are really the only variable. I bought them last May when my brother and I did a round of Insanity (which actually is insane btw...but I have never been in better shape!). I may have run in them last spring/summer a handful of times. This is the first time they're gaining any real mileage running. Perhaps a new pair of shoes are indeed in order.

Can anyone by chance recommend a running shoe store in Metro Detroit?? I admittdly haven't looked around too hard but I haven't the slightest idea of where one is around here. I'm sure they're around though.


From all that, with 35 year of running under my belt and zero formal sports training education ( :)! ) I'd say you have the basics pretty well covered. We get tweeked from time to time for who know what reason (stiff one day which causes gait to be off, turned your knee funny coming down the stairs at work when you encountered someone coming up carrying a box and you did not even notice at the time). We get a minor injury. Maybe we should have taken a day or two off and didn't.

Especially as we get older we need to take some time off to heal. That is step one, and for me the hardest as I have screwed up this step more than once. Make sure you do not let your shoes get too old (yeah, I have goofed this one too). Don't push through pain (easier said than done). I am a slow learner but I know what not to do.

So take a few weeks off and go easy at the gym. Get some new shoes and build back up over a few weeks. If you continue to have trouble see a sports doc or a physical therapist. I would not try to diagnose yourself if you have ready access to someone who makes their living at helping people with this sort of thing.

Best of luck.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby VictoriaF » Thu May 23, 2013 10:01 am

Free on Kindle today: Barefoot Running - Tips on Technique, Avoiding Injuries, Barefoot Shoes, Training and More. May not be free tomorrow {knowing smile}.

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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Tim_in_GA » Thu May 23, 2013 10:25 am

I use a foam roller on my IT band - along the side of my leg from the knee up to the hip. Really painful to massage sometimes but it definitely helps my knee pain.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby cleosdad » Thu May 23, 2013 11:14 am

Rodc wrote:
guitarguy wrote:Thanks for all the replies! :)

First off, I should note that running is only supplemental to my exercise routine. I've been working with primarily bodyweight circuits of different types and really enjoying those. In addition to these I also walk (power walk) 5-6 days a week and try to go for a light jog 1-2 times a week. I do this more for enjoyment than anything else. I usually run 2-3 miles at a fairly light pace. Nothing extraordinary.

Regarding the gym...I've been there done that. I'm just really enjoying this bodyweight stuff now. No commute, no machines, no nonsense. In fact, I finally did a full on dead hang zero cheating chin-up last week. First time ever for me. Small victory, but progress nonetheless. On a quest to be able to do 10.

As far as weight goes, I have an average body type. 6'3", 205lb, moderately athletic, 15% body fat. I started running in college at around 40-45 lbs heavier (yeah...I was fat then) than I am now and haven't ever had this problem before so I don't think weight is the issue. I also have been running the same various routes through my neighborhood for the last 5 years and haven't had problems, so no abrupt changes with surface or anything either.

The more I think about it the more I think the shoes are really the only variable. I bought them last May when my brother and I did a round of Insanity (which actually is insane btw...but I have never been in better shape!). I may have run in them last spring/summer a handful of times. This is the first time they're gaining any real mileage running. Perhaps a new pair of shoes are indeed in order.

Can anyone by chance recommend a running shoe store in Metro Detroit?? I admittdly haven't looked around too hard but I haven't the slightest idea of where one is around here. I'm sure they're around though.


From all that, with 35 year of running under my belt and zero formal sports training education ( :)! ) I'd say you have the basics pretty well covered. We get tweeked from time to time for who know what reason (stiff one day which causes gait to be off, turned your knee funny coming down the stairs at work when you encountered someone coming up carrying a box and you did not even notice at the time). We get a minor injury. Maybe we should have taken a day or two off and didn't.

Especially as we get older we need to take some time off to heal. That is step one, and for me the hardest as I have screwed up this step more than once. Make sure you do not let your shoes get too old (yeah, I have goofed this one too). Don't push through pain (easier said than done). I am a slow learner but I know what not to do.

So take a few weeks off and go easy at the gym. Get some new shoes and build back up over a few weeks. If you continue to have trouble see a sports doc or a physical therapist. I would not try to diagnose yourself if you have ready access to someone who makes their living at helping people with this sort of thing.

Best of luck.

Finally a correct answer. I have been running on concrete for 36 years with no problems. I tweaked my knee 2 months ago and after xrays and MRI my orthopedist declared my knees in great shape and told me to go run. We have running stores here in CO. with treadmills as I'm sure do others. I supinate a lot but know it. I have told my wife how much she pronates but she was amazed when she saw the video. We wear the correct shoes for our problems and change them at 500-600 miles. I am 64 and wife is 53. We have run up Pikes Peak and various road marathons. I would at least start with the proper shoe and build up slowly. Good luck.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby stoptothink » Thu May 23, 2013 12:45 pm

Cunobelinus wrote:There is some merit to the book and I am a proponent of forefoot ground contact, but people need to understand that there is a lot of hyperbole injected in. The only people (outside of Bikila) who have and can run fast barefoot are those who do not run on pavement. Regardless of gait, running with little shoe cushioning requires you minimize ground contact forces. This means short, choppy, and light steps, and running slow...really slow. For me, running anything above about 7:30/mile is mindnumbingly boring, and I know countless minimalist runners and very very few who are maintaining that pace.


Consider also how many non-minimalist folks run slower than 7:30min/mile in all sorts of footwear. It isn't related to the gear they have on their feet, though listening to the barefoot runners, they tend to run for the sake of enjoyment and not to achieve a certain pace. I happen to do my LSD (long slow distance) at a 7:00-7:30min/mile pace, either barefoot or in Vibrams (on the road) or in my New Balance MT-10s (on the trail). I know many folks who run much faster than 7:30min/mile in Vibrams. Perhaps you just have found a group of folks who aren't concerned with speed. When I run with my fiancee, we run between 9-10min/miles, and I don't find it mind-numbingly boring. I suppose it depends on what you're looking to get out of running.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

Attend any running race and you will see a large contingent of runners in Vibrams or Vivos (and even some completely barefoot), virtually all of them finish in the back of the pack. In fact McDougall (the writer of Born to Run) is terribly slow, like 11-12min/mile slow. I suppose it totally depends on your goals and you do have a point that barefoot runners have a tendency to run for enjoyment, but fact of the matter is they are slow out of necessity. I am a "minimalist" runner, one capable of a 17-min 5k, but zero drop and Vibrams are two totally different things. As I said, I run in Hattoris and Inov-8 bares which are zero drop and actually lighter than Vibrams or Vivos. I even own Vibrams, which I often wear for resistance training. Competitively I am not all that fast, but if you can find a single person who runs in Vibrams or Vivos who can keep up I woud love to meet them. I have raced on-and-off for about a decade and have met countless thousands who run in Vibrams or barefoot, I don't recall ever being beaten by one.

If you just run for enjoyment then Vibrams may be the ticket, but if you want to progress athletically (from a speed standpoint) and in your overall conditioning then it isn't going to happen past a certain point. I personally like to progress in everything I do.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby EyeYield » Thu May 23, 2013 1:49 pm

harrychan wrote: I was running around the Rose Bowl near Pasadena


Off topic, but partially on because this is my cure for a lot of running/martial art injuries; swimming??

After a good run around the Rose Bowl, ever take a dip here?
http://www.rosebowlaquatics.org/

Love the live cam, where you can see how crowded it is before you go.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby bigirish » Thu May 23, 2013 2:42 pm

guitarguy wrote:Thanks for all the replies! :)
Can anyone by chance recommend a running shoe store in Metro Detroit?? I admittdly haven't looked around too hard but I haven't the slightest idea of where one is around here. I'm sure they're around though.


I would recommend Running Fit. They will do an analysis for you and get you fitted into the proper shoe.

http://www.runningfit.com/
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby JupiterJones » Thu May 23, 2013 2:52 pm

Running, as the saying goes, is "an experiment of one".

What works for one person may or may not work for you. That goes for miles run, frequency of runs, speed, type of shoes (or not wearing shoes), orthotics, etc. We're all different, and that difference shows up running more than probably any other activity.

That said... I've dealt with knee pain before, and in my case it was mostly due to weak quads and other supporting musculature. Apparently, this allows the kneecap to wobble around or something.

Anyway, the best way I found to strengthen those muscles is simply riding a bike a little bit. I don't do squats, extensions, or any of that. I just ride my bike to the store, or to the park, or just around the neighborhood. Nothing major. But enough to work muscles that running doesn't.

JJ
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby letsgobobby » Thu May 23, 2013 3:09 pm

best advice for most runners with an injury: rest. lots of it.

advice most runners with an injury least like to hear: rest. lots of it.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby Peter Foley » Thu May 23, 2013 4:01 pm

I have had sore knees in the past and have found that running with new shoes and an elastic knee band are all I need. A store that specializes in running shoes can be a big help in fitting you to your weight, distance and stride. I'm 62, I've been running year-around for about 30 years and run 3 times per week on a route that is about 3.5 miles. I ran 4-5 times per week until about 3 years ago (run two days off one). My knees and hips needed more time to rest between runs so I cut back and added biking on the off days. No winter biking workouts in Minnesota, however. I'm not that much of a diehard.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby guitarguy » Thu May 23, 2013 4:09 pm

bigirish wrote:
guitarguy wrote:Thanks for all the replies! :)
Can anyone by chance recommend a running shoe store in Metro Detroit?? I admittdly haven't looked around too hard but I haven't the slightest idea of where one is around here. I'm sure they're around though.


I would recommend Running Fit. They will do an analysis for you and get you fitted into the proper shoe.

http://www.runningfit.com/


Thanks for the recommendation. I will make a point to stop in and check this place out soon.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby reggiesimpson » Thu May 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Get it diagnosed (orthopedist) accurately first. Then take it from there.
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Re: Runners Knee...new shoes, orthodics, what?

Postby LadyGeek » Thu May 23, 2013 4:53 pm

I tried to keep this discussion from giving out unqualified medical advice (what's posted in this thread), but it hasn't worked. This thread has run its course and is locked. See: Forum Policy

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