Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement common?

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Cosmo » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:20 am

archbish99 wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:
retiredjg wrote:...The several mentions of Treasury Direct's medallion requirement make me concerned about suggesting I Bonds. At the very least, if this is correct, it needs to be mentioned in the I Bond section of the Wiki.

Medallion signatures are required here:How Do I Transfer Securities from Legacy Treasury Direct to TreasuryDirect, which appears to be used for transferring existing securities to the online version. I don't use TreasuryDirect, but I don't see where else a Medallion signature is needed (for individuals).

They've recently added the requirement that adding a new linked bank account requires a medallion guarantee on the form with the bank info. (See page 2, here.) They also require medallion guarantees on Powers of Attorney to allow the agent to interact with Treasury Direct. (Page 2, here.) In both cases, they explicitly say that notarization is not acceptable, which is one reason they ignore most POAs, since all 50 states consider a POA valid with a notarized signature.


My bank (Wells Fargo) said they no longer do the medallion guarantee anymore. I sent the "change of bank account" form to TD with a note indicating that I was unable to get the medallion guarantee at Wells Fargo where my checking account resides and they still followed through with the account change with no problem. Sure enough, according to Wikipedia, fewer banks now furnish this service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medallion_ ... _guarantee

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby dickenjb » Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:26 am

I looked at gifting appreciated Vanguard mutual funds to my kids so they could sell them at their lower (0%) LTCG rate vs. my 15%. And actually it would in my case offset TLH I have done and cost me 25%.

My Flagship rep was happy to send me the form required to transfer the funds from my name to my kids' names, all within Vanguard. I was not so happy when I saw the requirement for a Medallion guarantee and so far have not acted on my idea.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Default User BR » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:09 pm

nisiprius wrote:I don't quite understand what the medallion signature guarantee could possibly be "guaranteeing" since series I and series EE savings bonds have your name, address, and social security number literally printed on the bond itself, and match those of my bank account.

Did your series HH bonds not have your current name/address/SSN on them? Or was it the case that you had neither a physical bank account nor a Treasury Direct account?

I looked on the Treasury site. The redemption instructions are different.

EE:
What will I need to redeem a paper bond?

Before taking in the bonds to redeem them, it's usually a good idea to check with the financial institution to find out what identification and other documents you'll need.
When you present your paper bonds, you'll be asked to show your identity. You can do this by

being a customer with an active account open for at least 6 months at the financial institution that will be paying the bonds, or
presenting acceptable identification such as a valid driver's license if the redemption value of the bonds is less than $1,000.

HH:
How do I redeem my HH/H Bonds?

The people at your local bank or other financial institution cannot redeem your HH/H Bonds.

However, they can help you by

certifying or guaranteeing your signature on your request for payment (on the back of the HH or H Bond you want to redeem), and
sending the bonds, with your direct deposit instructions and any supporting documents (if needed), to the Treasury Retail Securities Site.

We pay your HH/H Bonds through direct deposit. If you do not already have direct deposit for your HH/H Bonds, fill out and include form PD F 5396. You can get that form by mail or on-line. Also see Direct Deposit for HH Bonds

If you are not listed as the owner or co-owner on the bond, you must show that you are entitled to redeem the bond.


So I suspect that it's TD's requirement.


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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby bUU » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:12 pm

Is there anything specific that allows any financial institution to insist, specifically, on a Medallion signature guarantee? (I think the answer is 'no'.)
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:28 pm

leonard wrote:
Buysider wrote:As an aside, the Medallion is a big deterent to fraud in the industry.


Totally disagree. It's a tool for companies to dissuade customers leaving.

Hi Leonard,

Both are correct. It is an important procedure to deter fraud, and to assign liability where fraud has occurred anyway. It also has the effect of making it harder for customers to leave. The latter does not negate the former.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medallion_signature_guarantee

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby jsl11 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:53 pm

nisiprius wrote:
jsl11 wrote:
nisiprius wrote:Series I savings bonds are issued to you and can't be transferred. So requirements for a transfer wouldn't apply.
I recently redeemed paper HH bonds. The medallion guarantee was required.
Jeff
That's unsettling. I've redeemed paper EE bonds a couple of times; I just handed them across the counter to a bank teller, maybe ten minutes in the bank altogether.

I don't quite understand what the medallion signature guarantee could possibly be "guaranteeing" since series I and series EE savings bonds have your name, address, and social security number literally printed on the bond itself, and match those of my bank account.

Did your series HH bonds not have your current name/address/SSN on them? Or was it the case that you had neither a physical bank account nor a Treasury Direct account?

HH bonds are redeemable only by mail despite what it says on the back of the bonds. In my case, I do not have a TD account and the address had changed since they were purchased. However, I don't think either of those things made any difference. IIRC, the redemption form stated that the medallion guarantee was required. Either that, or they told me when I called and asked questions. The amount of money I was redeeming was small, but I don't think that made any difference either.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby jsl11 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:56 pm

From the treasury web site:

The people at your local bank or other financial institution cannot redeem your HH/H Bonds.

However, they can help you by
•certifying or guaranteeing your signature on your request for payment (on the back of the HH or H Bond you want to redeem), and
• sending the bonds, with your direct deposit instructions and any supporting documents (if needed), to the Treasury Retail Securities Site.

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby nisiprius » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:11 pm

Since one of my big reasons for holding paper series I savings bonds co-owned with my wife is the belief that she could redeem them quickly and easily if anything happened to me, I've been motivated to check. This is all verbal information, so who knows? But: "our" bank no longer redeems paper savings bonds. "Our other bank", where we've had a joint account for about three years, says that they do. Treasury Direct says that "if you can't find a bank that will redeem them, you must mail them to us and we will mail you a check." I asked whether a medallion signature guarantee was required and she said "no."

Obviously, though, the clock is ticking--or, at least, the calendar leaves are falling--on paper savings bonds. I think the chances of encountering difficulties of redeeming them is going to increase over time. I'd better at least leave a note, maybe in my tax folder, to remind me to make an annual call to the bank that says they redeem them to make sure that they still do.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby retiredjg » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:12 pm

retiredjg wrote:Where would a person go for a medallion signature in the following scenario?

    Owns home, no mortgage.
    Checking account with $2k at online bank (just to pay bills)
    No relationship with any local bank or credit union.
    All assets at custodian A.
    Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B or cash in an I Bond.
This type of situation can't be that rare. There has to be some solution.

There's only been one person to make a suggestion for this scenario. I'm wondering if there are any other ideas?
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:59 pm

retiredjg wrote:
retiredjg wrote:Where would a person go for a medallion signature in the following scenario?

    Owns home, no mortgage.
    Checking account with $2k at online bank (just to pay bills)
    No relationship with any local bank or credit union.
    All assets at custodian A.
    Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B or cash in an I Bond.
This type of situation can't be that rare. There has to be some solution.

There's only been one person to make a suggestion for this scenario. I'm wondering if there are any other ideas?

Sure:
retiredjg wrote:...Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B ...

Contact Custodian B and ask them to handle the transaction. I bet they don't need a signature guarantee because they'll follow the rules to 'know your customer,' and Custodian A will be willing to do business directly with them. If one is required anyway, ask for Custodian B's help in getting it. They're motivated to make everything easy. Should it become necessary, be sure they know that failure to facilitate will result in your turning your attention to Custodian C. Custodian A is motivated to make everything difficult.
retiredjg wrote:... or cash in an I Bond. ...

(A) Open an account at Treasury Direct if you don't already have one. Use their forms and certified mail to convert your paper bonds to electronic. Redeem them electronically into your linked bank account. Never use your Treasury Direct account again, unless you only wanted to redeem part of your paper holdings, in which case only convert the ones you want to redeem, then later convert any you wish to redeem at that time.

(B) Establish a relationship with a local bank or credit union, having confirmed with them first that they do redeem paper savings bonds. When you call around, ask whether you will have to wait six months to redeem more than $1000 worth. Make it clear to the banker that your decision about where to establish a relationship depends on the answer. Of the ones who say they'll do it immediately, without waiting six months, choose the one which will have the lowest total costs through closing your account. If none will do it without the wait, choose the cheapest.

If you don't want to use Treasury Direct and are unwilling to temporarily establish a local banking relationship then you may have little recourse. It's always possible to place so many constraints on a question that there is no solution.

Does that help?

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby retiredjg » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:02 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Does that help? PJW

I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit. Thank you. We won't know until people try it and report back.

Until this thread I was not aware of potential bumps in the road when I suggested I Bonds to people asking for portfolio help. This thread makes me less enthusiastic about suggesting I Bonds (or Treasury Direct) in general. It concerns me that people would get into something and then find themselves in a bind. It also concerns me that the comments above about I Bonds seem to be somewhat contradictory.


It's always possible to place so many constraints on a question that there is no solution.

I suppose that is true, but that was not my intent. In fact, I didn't put in many constraints - just no financial arrangement with a local bank.

It is a real possibility that some people will not be able to get a medallion signature. Since it is not illegal to be unable to get such a signature, I figure there must be a work-around. I just want to know what it might be.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:33 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Does that help? PJW

I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit. Thank you. We won't know until people try it and report back.

Until this thread I was not aware of potential bumps in the road when I suggested I Bonds to people asking for portfolio help. This thread makes me less enthusiastic about suggesting I Bonds (or Treasury Direct) in general. It concerns me that people would get into something and then find themselves in a bind. It also concerns me that the comments above about I Bonds seem to be somewhat contradictory.


It's always possible to place so many constraints on a question that there is no solution.

I suppose that is true, but that was not my intent. In fact, I didn't put in many constraints - just no financial arrangement with a local bank.

It is a real possibility that some people will not be able to get a medallion signature. Since it is not illegal to be unable to get such a signature, I figure there must be a work-around. I just want to know what it might be.

Thanks retiredjg. I believe you have asked a legitimate question, but I also believe there are more options than would at first appear.

The problems of the, as they are called, unbanked, are many and I will not pretend to have a solution.

A hard requirement of no financial arrangement with a local bank may be a killer, and unless you can explain why not even to accept one on a temporary basis, it seems irrational to me.

Basing this assertion on my own experience and on those of others who have posted to bogleheads.org, whose posts I read, and which I remember, most of the time a signature guarantee is not required to open a Treasury Direct account and link it to a bank account. In my personal case they did ask for further documentation (beyond what they could find electronically, which is unsurprising to me because I have deliberately attempted to make it hard to compile my complete picture). They did not in fact require a Medallion guarantee, nor do they today in order to add a new linked account. That's not to say they'll accept a youtube affidavit from a guy who hangs out on the corner all day. The requirement is (and I'm quoting their own form):

ACCEPTABLE CERTIFICATIONS: Financial institutions official seal or stamp (such as corporate seal, signature guaranteed stamp, or medallion stamp). (Notary certification is NOT acceptable.)
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/pdf/rs/PDF5512.pdf


A medallion stamp is not required.

Once your Treasury Direct account is set up well enough to buy I Bonds, complete with a linked bank account, no further documentation is required under normal circumstances (although I could easily believe somebody somewhere had a problem at some time).

Whether that increases your comfort level or not, I thought I should include it for completeness.

As to your larger concern, the only thing I can suggest as a general approach applying to everybody would be to contact one's local legal aid society.

http://www.legal-aid.org

PJW
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Taylor Larimore » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:45 pm

Bogleheads:

I remember when we first moved to Vanguard in 1986, that I thought I might need "wire transfer" for immediate transfer of money from Vanguard to our bank. Vanguard required a medallion signature guarantee.

We never used the "wire transfer" and many years later I decided it was an unnecessary security hazard. I cancelled the immediate wire transfer option.

I have no idea if Vanguard still requires a medallion signature guarantee for wire transfers.

Best wishes.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:48 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Does that help? PJW

I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit. Thank you. We won't know until people try it and report back.
...

I had also meant to say, but neglected to write, that I have moved assets from more than one Custodian A, to more than one Custodian B. The one and only one time I was asked for a signature guarantee (and this was before the medallion stamp program was established) I asked the then current custodian to move the funds to the new custodian. I never made that mistake again.

At no other times when dealing with Custodians B have I been asked to fulfill any requirements of Custodians A, other than paying their account closure fees, and even then it was an option to have them deducted from the amounts transferred.

I submit my own experiences as evidence. Reports of the experiences of others would be welcome.

PJW
[Edited once to add one missing word one, but leaving the bit of carelessness sscritic led me to discover intact. It's an object lesson in not believing one's bank. I remember asking, when 20 years ago I went in for the signature guarantee (that Schwab had requested in order to transfer to Vanguard a rollover IRA {they were all traditional then} but seemed to have left other options open), if there was anything more that could be required, and the bank manager telling me a signature guarantee was the most authoritative there was. All hail Siri!]
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby sscritic » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:(and this was before the medallion stamp program was established)

1992
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Phineas J. Whoopee » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:06 pm

sscritic wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:(and this was before the medallion stamp program was established)

1992

Thanks Sir Siri. It appears I was careless. Please permit me to restate:

(and this was in 1993, shortly after the medallion stamp program was established, but well before it had gained much traction)

Oh, by the way, welcome back, and please deposit your gold watch into petty cash.

Sir.

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Default User BR » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:27 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Does that help? PJW

I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit.

As noted, I've transferred assets between many of the major players, always starting with the receiving institution. Never a request for this type of signature verification.


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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Saving$ » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:42 pm

Data Points:
1. Medallion signature required in Trustee to Trustee transfer, initiated from receiving institution. Funds drawn FROM a Principal 401k. The receiving institution filled out the paperwork, sent it to me for original signature (without medallion), with return envelope. Several weeks later, Principal called me to advise that a) I must also fill out their paperwork and b) a medallion signature is required.
2. Chase would not provide Medallion - they claim all their branches in my state are really just "retail stores" and not really bank branches, so they have no officer working there, so no medallion signature.
3. Local credit union does not provide this service.

How to solve:
I was pleased to read the above poster was able to obtain the medallion signature from a Fidelity brick & mortar branch. I hope this would work; it would be a pain, but they are about 30 minutes away.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby retiredjg » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:23 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:A hard requirement of no financial arrangement with a local bank may be a killer, and unless you can explain why not even to accept one on a temporary basis, it seems irrational to me.

If it just comes down to opening an account somewhere, I would be happy to do that. But it might not be that simple. As I understood (and maybe I need to go back through the thread) some people had to have sizable amounts in the institution. Sometimes, you had to be a customer for a certain period of time. Either of those could be an insurmountable roadblock.


ACCEPTABLE CERTIFICATIONS: Financial institutions official seal or stamp (such as corporate seal, signature guaranteed stamp, or medallion stamp). (Notary certification is NOT acceptable.)
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/pdf/rs/PDF5512.pdf

This is somewhat comforting. It seems something more than a notary is required, but maybe not a medallion stamp. However, it is not surprising that some people have said that a medallion signature was required.


All in all, it is hard to judge from earlier posts just what is required and what is not. Sometimes, we don't know which way the money is going. People have reported what they think happened, but it might not be all that actually happened. Some people say a Chase CC did it for them, while others say there is no person at Chase in their state who can do it. Etc.

When I have time, I think I'll go back through each post and see if I can distill this down to facts and what might be facts. Thanks for your help.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby retiredjg » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:34 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:I had also meant to say, but neglected to write, that I have moved assets from more than one Custodian A, to more than one Custodian B. The one and only one time I was asked for a signature guarantee (and this was before the medallion stamp program was established) I asked the then current custodian to move the funds to the new custodian. I never made that mistake again.

At no other times when dealing with Custodians B have I been asked to fulfill any requirements of Custodians A, other than paying their account closure fees, and even then it was an option to have them deducted from the amounts transferred.


Default User Brian wrote:As noted, I've transferred assets between many of the major players, always starting with the receiving institution. Never a request for this type of signature verification.


I may have had a similar experience when I was moving money either into or out of the TSP - right now, I just don't remember. Some of the paperwork indicated that I needed the Medallion signature, but it ended up not being needed. Good thing since I don't know where I would have gotten one. I'll have to go back to see which way the money was going.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby archbish99 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:19 pm

retiredjg wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Does that help? PJW

I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit. Thank you. We won't know until people try it and report back.


I don't think Custodian B's policy has too much to do with it. When we transferred to Vanguard, they had a database of what institutions required a Medallion guarantee and when to the best of their knowledge Their transfer form has a spot for a medallion guarantee "if required." Some Custodian A's will take the electronic request; others want a physical signature; still others will require medallion. Their requirements may vary based on the amount involved -- Vanguard told us that Merrill Lynch would require Medallion for amounts over $100k, but we were under that amount and didn't wind up needing to.

Still, there is merit in having the receiving custodian initiate the transfer for a couple of reasons.... Regardless of policies, they're motivated to understand other companies' requirements and help you meet them as efficiently as possible. Second, they need to know what to do with the proceeds when they receive them, whether straight into funds or cash in a brokerage account. Third, they need to have an account already open and titled properly to receive the securities, lest you get some of the mistitled account issues there have been threads on before.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby retiredjg » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:52 pm

archbish99 wrote:
retiredjg wrote:
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Does that help? PJW

I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit. Thank you. We won't know until people try it and report back.

I don't think Custodian B's policy has too much to do with it.

I think you might be right. But I have wondered if some Custodian B's might be saying "don't worry, we feel confident this customer is the right person and we'll take the responsibility". I'm not sure this is even possible, it is just something that popped into my head. I'm probably way off base.... :D
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby leonard » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:13 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
leonard wrote:
Buysider wrote:As an aside, the Medallion is a big deterent to fraud in the industry.


Totally disagree. It's a tool for companies to dissuade customers leaving.

Hi Leonard,

Both are correct. It is an important procedure to deter fraud, and to assign liability where fraud has occurred anyway. It also has the effect of making it harder for customers to leave. The latter does not negate the former.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medallion_signature_guarantee

PJW


Many things have multiple uses - what really counts is the primary use and intent.

If this was such a great fraud deterrent - then I would say most financial institutions would use it. When I selected Vanguard - I ran through many institutions that did not require it. The only ones that seemed to be concerned about my fraud were the institutions that had a reputation - like Merrill Lynch.

For all I know, medallion signature guarantees may cure cancer - but they are actually used with the intent to keep customers from switching. Any other intent is a far second to that primary use.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Buysider » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:41 am

For all I know, medallion signature guarantees may cure cancer - but they are actually used with the intent to keep customers from switching.


No, they aren't. The $75 to $275 "account closing fees" that wirehouse brokers charge are used with the intent to keep customers from switching. For most people, going to a bank and getting a medallion or asking the financial institution to waive it, isn't a very big burden. As an aside, every firm can (and many will) waive the requirement if you ask them nicely to do so.

It isn't a deterrent to fraud, it eliminates it. With a medallion, if there is fraud, it isn't Merrill's problem anymore, it is XYZ Trust company's issue. As to why the rest of the industry doesn't require it - you have your answer, fraud (of this type) is not a big threat to the industry...
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby leonard » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:15 pm

Buysider wrote:
For all I know, medallion signature guarantees may cure cancer - but they are actually used with the intent to keep customers from switching.


No, they aren't. The $75 to $275 "account closing fees" that wirehouse brokers charge are used with the intent to keep customers from switching. For most people, going to a bank and getting a medallion or asking the financial institution to waive it, isn't a very big burden. As an aside, every firm can (and many will) waive the requirement if you ask them nicely to do so.

It isn't a deterrent to fraud, it eliminates it. With a medallion, if there is fraud, it isn't Merrill's problem anymore, it is XYZ Trust company's issue. As to why the rest of the industry doesn't require it - you have your answer, fraud (of this type) is not a big threat to the industry...


Yes, they are. Have you ever had to get a signature guarantee for 2 people that share an account - that don't share a local bank that they both share to do the signature guarantee? it was nearly impossible for 2 people to do that. I had to threaten to shut down my local bank account to get one for 2 people. It was a time consuming waste.

These are used to deter movers. You are deluding yourself if you don't think that the ML's of the world don't recognize this and actively use it as a tool.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby nisiprius » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:40 pm

leonard wrote:
Buysider wrote:
For all I know, medallion signature guarantees may cure cancer - but they are actually used with the intent to keep customers from switching.
...No, they aren't....
...Yes, they are....You are deluding yourself if you don't think that the ML's of the world don't recognize this and actively use it as a tool.
Hey, I'm as much of a conspiracy-theorist as the next guy and I am totally prepared to believe this--seriously, I'm not kidding--but I do need at least a scrap of evidence. These days, what with trade publications and business-facing websites being so common... can you point us to anything, like maybe one of the medallion-signature associations pitching their services by saying "lock in your customers?"
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby bUU » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:58 am

leonard wrote:Have you ever had to get a signature guarantee for 2 people that share an account - that don't share a local bank that they both share to do the signature guarantee?

No: Three people. Separated by hundreds of miles. We photocopied the form, went into our respective banks, and got the Medallion Signature Guarantees with minimal concern. The banks simply insisted on crossing-out the other spaces for additional signatures. If the brokerage had any upset about getting the form returned to them split in three like that, we never heard about it.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby happymob » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:49 am

We needed to a signature medallion guarantee to simply transfer some shares from a UGMA account for my wife to my wife outside of the UGMA. The ridiculous part was my wife is 40. All we wanted to do was get her mom's name off the account, which should have been pretty darned easy given that 21+ years had passed since the UGMA was set up. Nonetheless, signature medallion guarantee. Grrrr....

Living in a small town, no banks here would do it. So off to looking at alternatives. Well, I've had an account with Fidelity for a decade. Well, the closest Fidelity office is 3 hours away. We ended up simply waiting 6 months until we were visiting family in a city with a Fidelity office to get this, but had we been in a bigger hurry, we would have been faced with a 6-hour round-trip just to break up the UGMA, with no real transfer of ownership. Grrrr...
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby JW Nearly Retired » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:56 am

Cosmo wrote: A growing number of banks, including Wells Fargo, no longer provide this service. TD requires this whenever you change your primary account that is linked to your TD account. I did not have this medallion signature guarantee but apparently, TD was not too concerned about this and perhaps recognized that it is no longer available with some banks. They allowed me to change checking accounts no problem.

Cosmo

Wells Fargo won't do it anymore? This looks like a major problem. Vanguard's current IRA Asset Transfer form has a Medallion Signature Guarantee box on the account owner signature page...... with the note "if required" by the current institution. Last time we did transferred an IRA a few years ago we walked into the nearest Wells Fargo and they did the Medallion without a thought..... charged a nominal fee like $2.

I like the fact that this hoop in needed for transferring a lot of assets, but it has to be possible to do it for gosh sakes. Do all brokerages still do this? If somebody walks into a brick & mortar Fidelity brokerage would they do it for anyone? or only for account holders?
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby mlipps » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:32 pm

I went today and got my Medallion from Chase. Easy enough. The annoying thing about it was not getting the signature, but having to listen to his pitch for all the products I would never in a million years have from JP Morgan/Chase. :oops:
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby b4nash » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:03 am

I have a Chase credit card (my bank accounts are with online banks) and they gave me a medallion signature today. Took all of five minutes. 8-)
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby BrandonBogle » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:33 am

JW Nearly Retired wrote:
Cosmo wrote: A growing number of banks, including Wells Fargo, no longer provide this service. TD requires this whenever you change your primary account that is linked to your TD account. I did not have this medallion signature guarantee but apparently, TD was not too concerned about this and perhaps recognized that it is no longer available with some banks. They allowed me to change checking accounts no problem.

Cosmo

Wells Fargo won't do it anymore? This looks like a major problem. Vanguard's current IRA Asset Transfer form has a Medallion Signature Guarantee box on the account owner signature page...... with the note "if required" by the current institution. Last time we did transferred an IRA a few years ago we walked into the nearest Wells Fargo and they did the Medallion without a thought..... charged a nominal fee like $2.

I like the fact that this hoop in needed for transferring a lot of assets, but it has to be possible to do it for gosh sakes. Do all brokerages still do this? If somebody walks into a brick & mortar Fidelity brokerage would they do it for anyone? or only for account holders?
JW


The three WF stores (two by home, one by work) I called today all said they do them. Guess it varies by area.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby manwithnoname » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:31 am

Medallion guarantee is a requirement for transferring savings bond ownership/death of owner. Need to complete forms PD 4000 and PD1455 and get guarantee or corporate seal. Services like this are why I keep my accounts at a full service bank.
Last edited by manwithnoname on Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby manwithnoname » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:30 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
JW Nearly Retired wrote:
Cosmo wrote: A growing number of banks, including Wells Fargo, no longer provide this service. TD requires this whenever you change your primary account that is linked to your TD account. I did not have this medallion signature guarantee but apparently, TD was not too concerned about this and perhaps recognized that it is no longer available with some banks. They allowed me to change checking accounts no problem.

Cosmo

Wells Fargo won't do it anymore? This looks like a major problem. Vanguard's current IRA Asset Transfer form has a Medallion Signature Guarantee box on the account owner signature page...... with the note "if required" by the current institution. Last time we did transferred an IRA a few years ago we walked into the nearest Wells Fargo and they did the Medallion without a thought..... charged a nominal fee like $2.

I like the fact that this hoop in needed for transferring a lot of assets, but it has to be possible to do it for gosh sakes. Do all brokerages still do this? If somebody walks into a brick & mortar Fidelity brokerage would they do it for anyone? or only for account holders?
JW


The three WF stores (two by home, one by work) I called today all said they do them. Guess it varies by area.


No, it depends on affluence. An investor who lives in a rural NY farming county told me that the 3 BOA banks nearby were being consolidated to one and would no longer offer medallion guarantees. Nearest branch offering guarantee is 35 miles away.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby sscritic » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:37 pm

manwithnoname wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote: Guess it varies by area.

No, it depends on affluence. An investor who lives in a rural NY farming county told me that the 3 BOA banks nearby were being consolidated to one and would no longer offer medallion guarantees. Nearest branch offering guarantee is 35 miles away.

I guess your definition of area differs from mine. True, some areas are more affluent than other areas, but they are all areas as far as I know.

Or perhaps your definition of no differs from mine. Compare,
Yes, it depends on affluence.
No, it depends on affluence.

Yes and no are different words.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby nisiprius » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:43 pm

I tried to get an "official" answer on how to find an institution that provides medallion signature guarantees and got what I regard as an unhelpful brushoff. I haven't tried to push this any further. Maybe someone else can try to contact stai.org and explain to them that, contrary to what they say, it would be highly "effectual" to have a directory of banks offering medallion signature guarantees is so that you can choose which one you want to bank with!

The reality of the situation is that when people choose a bank they have no way of knowing which banks offer a service that most people have never heard of, don't think to ask about, the bank doesn't mention--one way or the other--in its leaflets, that they don't know they need, until one day they try to transfer securities and get surprised by it at the last minute. Sucks.

I sent an email to contactkfs@kemark.com:
I'm a frequent poster in an investment forum called "Bogleheads" and we often get queries like this one

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=125340

from people who have suddenly discovered that they need a medallion signature guarantee and don't know where to get one. Have you any general guidance on how people can locate banks (or other institutions) that provide them?

(My experience has been that medallion signature guarantees are a customary banking service, and a bank that doesn't provide it is providing substandard service. But it's not that easy to find out, because banks that provide signature guarantees don't advertise it, and of course the banks that do not don't warn you about it when you open an account).
I received this reply:
We have enclosed a link to the website of the Securities Transfer Association ("STA"). The STA Guidelines on Medallion Signature Guarantees which address your question can be accessed on this site.

http://www.stai.org/

Thank you
That link, after clicking around a bit, yields this rather unhelpful page:

For individuals seeking Medallion Signature Guarantees
The STA frequently receives inquiries from investors seeking a list of Medallion Program Guarantors located within a certain geographic area. Unfortunately, there is not an existent published list available to the general public. When a Medallion Program Guarantor affixes its Medallion stamp to an instruction to transfer or sell securities, the Guarantor incurs a potential liability for that transaction. For this reason, Medallion Program Guarantors will only provide this service to customers of their institution, rendering such a list ineffectual.

Investors located within the U.S. and Canada are advised to contact their own financial institution (bank, credit union, or broker dealer) to determine if that institution is a participant in a Medallion Signature Guarantee Program.

For investors located outside the U.S. and Canada, a branch of a U.S. or Canadian bank, credit union, or broker dealer with whom the investor banks or has a business relationship might be a source of a Medallion Signature Guarantee. Alternatively, a local financial institution with whom the investor banks or has a business relationship, and that has a correspondent relationship with a U.S. or Canadian Medallion Program member firm might be a source of a Medallion Signature Guarantee. In either case, a business relationship is a must.

If the above are not viable options, investors should contact Shareholder Services of the Transfer Agent or Issuer requiring the Medallion Signature Guarantee for assistance.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby TimeRunner » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:24 pm

My n=1 experience: We just opened a Fidelity Charitable trust account, funded with some nice cap gain stock in a VG brokerage acct. Fido required the medallion sig guarantee to transfer some shares; VG said they didn't care one way or the other. I took the transfer request form letter from Fido into their semi-local office, showed them my driver's license; they stamped the letter, made a copy for their files, and gave me back the original to continue the workflow. No charge (since Fido was getting the funds) and no appointment necessary - just walk in. Had no previous financial relationship with Fido - this is a new account.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Cosmo » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:47 am

manwithnoname wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote:
JW Nearly Retired wrote:
Cosmo wrote: A growing number of banks, including Wells Fargo, no longer provide this service. TD requires this whenever you change your primary account that is linked to your TD account. I did not have this medallion signature guarantee but apparently, TD was not too concerned about this and perhaps recognized that it is no longer available with some banks. They allowed me to change checking accounts no problem.

Cosmo

Wells Fargo won't do it anymore? This looks like a major problem. Vanguard's current IRA Asset Transfer form has a Medallion Signature Guarantee box on the account owner signature page...... with the note "if required" by the current institution. Last time we did transferred an IRA a few years ago we walked into the nearest Wells Fargo and they did the Medallion without a thought..... charged a nominal fee like $2.

I like the fact that this hoop in needed for transferring a lot of assets, but it has to be possible to do it for gosh sakes. Do all brokerages still do this? If somebody walks into a brick & mortar Fidelity brokerage would they do it for anyone? or only for account holders?
JW


The three WF stores (two by home, one by work) I called today all said they do them. Guess it varies by area.


No, it depends on affluence. An investor who lives in a rural NY farming county told me that the 3 BOA banks nearby were being consolidated to one and would no longer offer medallion guarantees. Nearest branch offering guarantee is 35 miles away.


For what it's worth, my WF branch is located in The Woodlands, a thriving suburb north of Houston -not in the middle of nowhere and at the time, the assistant manager made it clear that they no longer do the MSG. I incorrectly inferred that the entire bank no longer did MSGs but it is becoming clear that it was probably very branch specific.

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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby BrandonBogle » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:31 pm

Cosmo wrote:For what it's worth, my WF branch is located in The Woodlands, a thriving suburb north of Houston -not in the middle of nowhere and at the time, the assistant manager made it clear that they no longer do the MSG. I incorrectly inferred that the entire bank no longer did MSGs but it is becoming clear that it was probably very branch specific.

Cosmo


I will say that it cannot be cheap to be part of the program and it requires certain certifications (to my knowledge -- the three I've gotten had to be done by an investment person or a VP), so it could very well be a factor of staffing at the location. In my area, there are investment advisors around (though I don't use them), so that probably plays a role.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Cash » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:45 pm

They're a pain. My wife has an account at Bank of America, and they provide medallion signature guarantees, but it usually has to be done by a branch manager or VP. We went on a Saturday, and they said to make an appointment for a weekday, which is even more inconvenient. I once pressed the issue with Vanguard, and they offered to help locate a bank nearby that offered the service. That's nice, I guess. I didn't take them up on the offer because it was easier for me just to liquidate the account I wanted to transfer to Vanguard and ACH cash.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby Bonnie Terese » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:20 pm

This was a requirement for me when rolling over a roth ira. My bank offered it for free. Usually only the general manager can provide this.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby ElJay » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:21 pm

retiredjg wrote:I think your idea of Custodian B doing the heavy lifting might have some merit. Thank you. We won't know until people try it and report back.

With Vanguard as Custodian B receiving rollover funds, I have not had any success in getting them to "handle" the transaction. My IRA is already established at Vanguard; when I call up concierge services they tell me to send Custodian A its distribution request form (which requires a medallion guarantee) and indicate on the form the Vanguard account that I want the money to be transferred into. After receiving a letter in the mail from Vanguard telling me they'd help with a rollover, I expected to get a little more assistance from a "concierge services" line than a person telling me that there's nothing they want/need to do.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby JamesSFO » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:34 pm

My parents have gotten medallion signatures from Wells Fargo out here in CA in the last 12 months and they are FL Wells Fargo customers. I've gone to many BofA banks and gotten it. I've never had any problem and I've never found them to be all that interested in what they are signing. YMMV.

My will/trust attorney reports getting the third degree regularly when she goes in with clients.

I may do more of the dumb blonde thing (not blonde, dumb, or female) but just sort of go, I think I need some sort of bank signature on this and I've managed to get it done in <5 mins with minimal questions all over the place they just seem to look at my BofA ATM card + my driver's license and stamp away.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby dm200 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:05 pm

I had a recent experience of Vanguard requiring such a signature guarantee. Annually, there is an audit of the organization I manage, and that audit requires independent (of me) verification of all investment and deposit accounts - sent directly from the institution to the auditor (not touched by me). In the past, Vanguard did this with a notarized request. At the last audit, several months ago, Vanguard would NOT accept the notarized request from me and insisted on a "signature guarantee".

So, instead of going through that, bigger, hassle, I just (within my capacity and at NO CHARGE), I just added the auditor the get a copy of Vanguard statements. :happy

"Logically" - it makes ZERO sense to me - BUT it did the job at ZERO cost and hassle.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby klneutral » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:41 pm

I have had to get signature guarantees quite a few times over the last several years at Vanguard's request. Lately, however, it seems that for certain situations one can avoid it by having in place Vanguard Voice Verification. At least that is my experience and I am grateful for the simplicity.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby cherijoh » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:17 pm

TheGreyingDuke wrote:
retiredjg wrote:I find it extremely hard to believe that you cannot withdraw money from your Roth IRA without a Medallion signature. This is an everyday occurrence, not some special something that requires special security. I'd be raising holy heck with Tweedy Browne because a Medallion signature is not that easy to get for many people.


I think the OP stated that s/he wanted to sell the assets at Tweedy and have the send the proceeds to Vanguard. I think if s/he does what you imply, and I suggested earlier, the requirement for medallion disappears; have them sell the assets and send the proceeds to the OP and then the proceeds get forwarded to the new account at Vanguard, Bob's your uncle.


I think they are required to withhold 20% of the proceeds if you take possession of the money. This is per IRS regulations. If you do not roll over the entire amount (i.e., make up the 20% from your other funds) it is considered an early distribution which results in a 10% penalty. That is if you are under 59.5 years old. So taking possession of the money can be worse than dealing with the signature guarantee.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby leonard » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:33 pm

nisiprius wrote:
leonard wrote:
Buysider wrote:
For all I know, medallion signature guarantees may cure cancer - but they are actually used with the intent to keep customers from switching.
...No, they aren't....
...Yes, they are....You are deluding yourself if you don't think that the ML's of the world don't recognize this and actively use it as a tool.
Hey, I'm as much of a conspiracy-theorist as the next guy and I am totally prepared to believe this--seriously, I'm not kidding--but I do need at least a scrap of evidence. These days, what with trade publications and business-facing websites being so common... can you point us to anything, like maybe one of the medallion-signature associations pitching their services by saying "lock in your customers?"


Nisiprius - would you really expect them to admit this? Along with there list of admissions: "We charge way too many fees" "Active management doesn't work" Seriously?

The reality is that: 1) Medallion signature guarantees are a lot of work, 2) adding a lot of switching costs for customers deter customers from switching, and 3) they are not necessary because many institutions don't use them. So, I think if an institution chooses to use a tool that is not required, they do it for a reason. They have to at least know that this tool creates more work for customers and therefore makes people less likely to switch - cause it's one more hurdle. I don't believe that you don't think they know this and that at least figures in to the calculation. No conspiracy needed - it's just logic.
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Re: Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement comm

Postby OkieIndexer » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:59 pm

As I said above, Chase is willing to do it with a CC account. I wonder if others do the same. Surely most people have one of those from a major bank if nothing else.


Bank of America won't give you a medallion signature guarantee if all you have is a Bank of America credit card. I just tried it at my local main branch. They told me you need an account (checking/savings) with them.

I would just open a savings account with them and put a few dollars in it, but they'll probably want to do a soft pull on my credit reports, and I have those frozen and would have to pay to unfreeze them. Ugh.
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