Medallion signature guarantee - is this requirement common?

[dblck]

Hello,
I am a first time poster.

I would like to sell a Tweedy Browne Roth IRA mutual fund and transfer the proceeds into my Vanguard Roth IRA (to purchase a different fund), but discovered I must make the request to TB with a Medallion guaranteed signature. About a year ago I obtained such a guarantee from my bank to change my name on the investment account, and the bank said they would not be providing this service any more. Where else can I get a Medallion guarantee? I had to provide the bank with my investment account balances last time, and I am not keen on doing this to another entity. What is the point of a Medallion signature guarantee if I go to an institution that I have had no dealings with? Is the requirement for a Medallion guaranteed signature common?

TB said I also have to get one if I simply want to obtain a distribution from my Roth IRA into my bank account (and roll over the funds myself -- not my preference). As far as I know, Vanguard has no such signature guarantee requirements for IRA distributions. Does that make the Vanguard account less secure?

Comments on your experience with the Medallion signature guarantee would be appreciated. Obviously I am a small time investor who had never heard of this before last year.

Thank you!

[prudent]

We had to get one to transfer stock from one broker to another. Our credit union does it free. The credit union also wanted to see a recent statement showing the value because they have limits on how much value can be transferred with a medallion guarantee. (Limits on how much the CU person can guarantee for) And the person wanted to see photo ID as well, hinting that there was potentially some liability on the credit union if they did a medallion guarantee that turned out to be bogus.

[scrabbler1]

I needed a Medallion signature guanrantee when I liquidated my company stock in my company's retirement plan after leaving my old job and had the proceeds of the stock sale sent electronically into my bank account. On the form, I needed this Medallion signature guarantee because the amount being sent into my bank account was more than $100,000.

I did not have to pay any fee to get the Medallion signature guarantee but it turned out to be a minor nuisance to get it (a comedy of mishaps). After seeing other relevant pages in the forms I was preparing and after showing proper ID (so the bank can properly connect me to my account number to the source of the funds), the bank manager had this special raised stamp affixed to the form but because the retirement plan administrator allowed us to fax our forms that unique feature could not be seen. It did not matter because the money got transferred to my bank account in a timely manner.

[Toons]

"The most common use for the Medallion signature guarantee is for transferring or selling securities"

http://www.bankersonline.com/articles/b ... 04a13.html

[Gnirk]

We had to get one to transfer stock from one broker to another. Our credit union does it free. The credit union also wanted to see a recent statement showing the value because they have limits on how much value can be transferred with a medallion guarantee. (Limits on how much the CU person can guarantee for) And the person wanted to see photo ID as well, hinting that there was potentially some liability on the credit union if they did a medallion guarantee that turned out to be bogus.

Yes, I had to do the same thing when transferring assets to a revocable trust for my mother. No cost at the our credit union. When I needed a higher guarantee, I went to her bank, and again no cost.

[jsl11]

My understanding is that a medallion guarantee is available only from a bank or a stock broker. My experience is that a bank will not do this for you unless you are a customer. If my bank were to discontinue this service, I would become a customer with a bank that would. I recently redeemed some Series HH savings bonds. I learned that the only way they can be redeemed is by mail to an office in Minneapolis and they must have a medallion guarantee. My experience is that the bank manager has to see the completed document including the amount of money involved. As has been mentioned above, the bank would be liable for any funds fraudulently transferred under their guarantee. This is why a bank will not do this for a non-customer.

Jeff

[TheGreyingDuke]

Different bank officials (or credit union officials) are bonded for different amounts, thus the requirement that they know the dollars involved. I have always used my local credit union and they do it for gratis.

Why don't you have Tweedy Brown send you a check for the amount of the IRA, you have I believe 60 days to get it in the new account without any tax liability (you might see if they are willing to make the check out to Vanguard,giving you some additional protection from taxation, although I do not think this is necessary.)

[dblck]

Thank you for your replies.

The link to BankersOnline was informative. I can see why banks don't want to bother with it, but it is very inconvenient to change banks just for this service. Furthermore, I am certainly not transferring even close to $100K.

Does anyone have an idea regarding how common this requirement is? I think I will not purchase any more funds that require this. But then, I am in the process of moving most to Vanguard.

Thanks again for your help.

[Abe]

I have been asked for a Medallion signature guarantee a couple of times. My bank did not have that service or a least that is what they told me. I just told the people who wanted the Medallion signature that I couldn't get it, so they transferred the securities without it.

[retiredjg]

I find it extremely hard to believe that you cannot withdraw money from your Roth IRA without a Medallion signature. This is an everyday occurrence, not some special something that requires special security. I'd be raising holy heck with Tweedy Browne because a Medallion signature is not that easy to get for many people.

We don't know the amount except it is not near $100k. Have you tried to take out only $10k? Or maybe it should be $9,995 instead since $10k might be the trigger point. Perhaps you need to find out what the trigger point is and make several withdrawals just under that.

I know when I did some rolling over several years ago, I was told I'd have to get this medallion signature, but then didn't have to because the amount was not enough to need it. Good thing since my credit union was 2000 miles away and I had no local accounts to fall back on. I would think this is getting more and more common as people are using internet banking more and more.

If this nonsense continues, I think I would be moving up the supervisory ladder to get some satisfaction. Obviously, they do need to be secure, but they should not be able to hold your money hostage. What is going to happen if you simply can't get a medallion signature? They going to keep your money? What would they do if you now lived in Mexico or France? Keep your money?

This is BS. There has to be a solution that does not require you to move your assets to another financial institution.

[kaneohe]

Seems to be a range of requirements caused by some mavericks...........I recently decided to stop reinvesting fund distributions and have them sent to bank account instead. For almost all , this wasn't a problem. Just fill out a form. The maverick required a medallion signature guarantee and even required the
titling of bank acct and fund to be identical..........e.g. couldn't be a trust and non-trust acct even tho names were identical. I'm letting them spend their money on postage until I get more energy.

[Mudpuppy]

My credit union will only do medallion signatures for transactions that involve them. So they had no issue when I wanted to add the credit union account to my TreasuryDirect.gov account and when I wanted to transfer an IRA from them to Vanguard, but they also made it clear both times that they only do this when they are one of the parties involved. I don't know if this was just a policy to limit their liability or an actual limitation of their liability coverage.

[nisiprius]

It is common.

I've had to get one three or four times, all involving transfers of securities between brokerages. Not all brokerages do require them, and I have transferred securities several times without one, but it is not at all rare. Treasury Direct requires it, and I'm trying to remember who some of the others were.

In my experience medallion signature guarantees are a customary banking service provided for free by banks at which you have an account. However, for decades now banks have been hollowing out, reducing, and charging fees for what were always used to be considered part of the deal, so whenever you are opening a bank account I would ask specifically about this service.

At our small local bank, they do it, but I think there is only one person who does it--he is a bank officer--and he's only present weekdays and you need to call ahead to double-check his schedule.

It is definitely a bigger deal that getting something notarized, which is done by any one of several customer service reps and can be done whenever the bank is open.

At big banks, they may tell you that "the bank" does it, but when you actually try to get one done they may tell you that they don't actually do it at your branch but will be happy to do it in the downtown office twenty miles away... so check that, too, when you open an account.

Whenever people say in this forum that they do not understand why anyone needs an account at a brick-and-mortar bank, I always ask where they are going to go when they need a medallion signature guarantee. I expect that someone will figure out some way to provide an eMedallion eSignature eGuarantee someday, it's gotta happen, but as of Anno Domini MMXIII, as a practical matter, if you are an investor sooner or later you are going to need a medallion signature guarantee. I can't judge whether the system is fair or reasonable.

[Rosebud]

I had to get a Medallion signature guarantee quite a few years ago at Vanguard when I linked my Rollover IRA with my Credit Union checking account. I had opened my checking account with my middle initial and had named my accounts at Vanguard with my middle name spelled out. It was a little bit of a nuisance, but once I changed the names of the accounts so that they were identical, I never had to do it again.

[Saving$]

In the last 3 years, I have encountered this requirement numerous times, in the course of consolidating my own accounts, helping a relative consolidate their accounts at Vanguard, and being the executor of an estate. I have learned the following:
1. My local credit union does NOT offer this service.
2. I had an account at Chase, so I tried them. I was advised that all Chase locations in my area are considered "retail stores" rather than banks, so none provide a Medallion signature.
3. The estate had an account at Wells Fargo and I am the only one with signature authority on that account. The VP of the local WF was able to offer medallion signature guarantees. He did this for me three times. Once for a transfer involving the estate, once for my own personal account consolidation effort, and once for the relative I'm helping, when I accompanied the relative to the bank. At no time did he require that the funds go through the WF account, and at no time did they actually do so. The estate account at WF was substantial, but I had distributed a significant portion before needing the medallion signatures. One of the Med Sign transactions was for much more than was ever in the estate account, one was for close to the highest balance ever in the account, but several months later when the balance was lower, and one was within about $10k of the account balance.

Prior to this, I had never encountered this requirement. It is the only reason I have kept the account at WF. When the estate is closed, I will need to seek another solution. I hope the nearby Fidelity office can provide this service, but they are not convenient.

[dblck]

Thank you for relating your experiences. I am more comfortable and less comfortable about it at the same time. I live in the "sticks" so I may have to travel hundreds of miles to get to the main bank (that will work although my account is at the branch, right?) I also see major problems ahead as I am my father's estate exec.

I plan to appeal to TB for the time being.

Have a great day!

[TheGreyingDuke]

I find it extremely hard to believe that you cannot withdraw money from your Roth IRA without a Medallion signature. This is an everyday occurrence, not some special something that requires special security. I'd be raising holy heck with Tweedy Browne because a Medallion signature is not that easy to get for many people.

I think the OP stated that s/he wanted to sell the assets at Tweedy and have the send the proceeds to Vanguard. I think if s/he does what you imply, and I suggested earlier, the requirement for medallion disappears; have them sell the assets and send the proceeds to the OP and then the proceeds get forwarded to the new account at Vanguard, Bob's your uncle.

[alisa4804]

Medallion guarantee is the one reason we still keep a checking account (no monthly fees so far) at Bank of America. We also have accounts at our local credit union, but to my knowledge, and what others have said here, you need to go to a bank for the medallion guarantee. And yes, there is usually just one person who can complete them for you. Hope this helps.

[Cosmo]

A growing number of banks, including Wells Fargo, no longer provide this service. TD requires this whenever you change your primary account that is linked to your TD account. I did not have this medallion signature guarantee but apparently, TD was not too concerned about this and perhaps recognized that it is no longer available with some banks. They allowed me to change checking accounts no problem.

Cosmo

[mlipps]

I'm currently trying to get one as well and can tell from my research that:
1. Every PNC Branch Manager can do one (I have a deposit account here)
2. Chase is willing to do it for me even though I only have CC's with them and no deposit accounts.

[Bill M]

Does anyone have an idea regarding how common this requirement is?

It sure seems common. I've done it so many times it has become almost automatic. Every form sent regarding my TreasuryDirect account needs the medallion guarantee. Every form to transfer a retirement account from one custodian to another needs one too. My local Bank of America officer does this free, and if he is not in then I go to another BoA branch in next town (they call ahead and tell them I'm coming).

[BrandonBogle]

I've gotten a few over the years. All my local Wells Fargo provides them, so it's easy enough fore to go in the few times I've needed it.

That said, I have before seen it needed to tell my current broker to liquidate while NOT needed for the new broker to request transfer. Would the Op need one if Vanguard did the paperwork? That may eliminate the need to find a location that offers it.

[Buysider]

As an aside, the Medallion is a big deterent to fraud in the industry.

No one who complains about lack of two-step login or other security features at Vanguard or Fidelity is allowed complain on this page about the Medallion

[WHL]

I had to help my parents get this when we moved money out of their Wells REIT "investments" and into a Vanguard account. Wells required it. Luckily, their local credit union offered the service for free. It was hysterical watching the lady blow the dust off of the stamp box!

[sscritic]

For more information, look for STAMP, SEMP, MSP, STA, and KFS. See also SEC Rule 17Ad-15.

[kramer]

I reside abroad most of the time and a Medallion Signature guarantee requirement would be an insurmountable requirement for me.

I have several USA bank accounts and 2 USA brokerages but I have not set foot inside a branch in this century.

Once I thought I might need one to transfer my HSA account. And so I asked Schwab about it, where I had had a large brokerage account for over a decade. They said they would not do it if they are not receiving funds from the transaction.

[dm200]

An organization I manage has investments at Vanguard. In order for Vanguard to send a statement to our auditors for ther annual audit, Vanguard told me I needed a Medallion signature guarantee. When I went to our bank to get it, the bank person expressed puzzlement -- since there were no transactions of any kind involved. So, I just got my signature notarized and Vanguard accepted it.

[huntertheory]

It is not uncommon. A medallion guaranty is essentially like a notary-plus: a notary ensures that you in fact signed it in their presence on the date so specified; a medallion guaranty signifies that the person who signed it is in fact who they said they were -- i.e. that "James Smith," owned of said securities, is really James Smith, owner of said securities. It's especially common in cross-border or international transfers. (I've dealt with this in my legal practice more than in my daily life.)

Most of the entities that can affix a medallion guaranty are banks, typically where you are a customer. It's kind of a pain but if it's requested it's best to just do it.

[retiredjg]

Where would a person go for a medallion signature in the following scenario?

Owns home, no mortgage.
Checking account with $2k at online bank (just to pay bills)
No relationship with any local bank or credit union.
All assets at custodian A.
Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B or cash in an I Bond.

This type of situation can't be that rare. There has to be some solution.

[Default User BR]

I guess my experience has been different. Over the years I transferred from Vanguard to Wells Fargo, Wells Fargo to TD Ameritrade, and TDA to Schwab, Fidelity, ETrade, and OptionsHouse, without ever needing one.


Brian

[BrandonBogle]

I guess my experience has been different. Over the years I transferred from Vanguard to Wells Fargo, Wells Fargo to TD Ameritrade, and TDA to Schwab, Fidelity, ETrade, and OptionsHouse, without ever needing one.


Brian

Yeah. I was wondering that myself for the Op. for up above

That said, I have before seen it needed to tell my current broker to liquidate while NOT needed for the new broker to request transfer. Would the Op need one if Vanguard did the paperwork? That may eliminate the need to find a location that offers it.

I've had the same experience as Brian in that I have not needed a Medallion guarantee when having the receiving firm start the process and not even bothering to contact the sending firm.

[retiredjg]

I've had the same experience as Brian in that I have not needed a Medallion guarantee when having the receiving firm start the process and not even bothering to contact the sending firm.

I was wondering about this as well, but assumed that was the first route the original poster had tried.

dbick, have you tried having Vanguard pull the money over rather than push it from Tweedy Brown to Vanguard?

[retiredjg]

Over the years I transferred from Vanguard to Wells Fargo, Wells Fargo to TD Ameritrade, and TDA to Schwab, Fidelity, ETrade, and OptionsHouse, without ever needing one. Brian

Not to mention all those transfers from your 401k and back.

[Default User BR]

Over the years I transferred from Vanguard to Wells Fargo, Wells Fargo to TD Ameritrade, and TDA to Schwab, Fidelity, ETrade, and OptionsHouse, without ever needing one. Brian

Not to mention all those transfers from your 401k and back.

Indeed. Rollovers in and out of Wells Fargo, TDA, now Schwab.


Brian

[retiredjg]

Brian - the active passive money manager.

[Default User BR]

Brian - the active passive money manager.

There's money, then there are investments. For the most part, there's little impact on the investments for all the money management. ETFs and in-kind transfer. It's mostly just accounting.


Brian

[leonard]

I had ML require a Med. Signature Guarantee to transfer out. IMO it is just the last step to increase the marginal cost of switching institutions. The specifics of a Sig Guarantee can be very difficult and if you have to get 2 people to sign at once - it can be even more of a headache. I believe these institutions are hoping the Signature Guarantee dissuades all but the most determine leavers to stay put.

Make sure that any institution you switch to does NOT require these. At the time I switch to VG - they didn't require it. I doubt they have added it since.

[leonard]

As an aside, the Medallion is a big deterent to fraud in the industry.

Totally disagree. It's a tool for companies to dissuade customers leaving.

[Saving$]

Where would a person go for a medallion signature in the following scenario?

Owns home, no mortgage.
Checking account with $2k at online bank (just to pay bills)
No relationship with any local bank or credit union.
All assets at custodian A.
Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B or cash in an I Bond.

This type of situation can't be that rare. There has to be some solution.

I would love an answer to this, as my recent experience has me wondering the same thing. And based on another recent post here, Treasury Direct requires medallion signatures.

[retiredjg]

Where would a person go for a medallion signature in the following scenario?

Owns home, no mortgage.
Checking account with $2k at online bank (just to pay bills)
No relationship with any local bank or credit union.
All assets at custodian A.
Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B or cash in an I Bond.

This type of situation can't be that rare. There has to be some solution.

I would love an answer to this, as my recent experience has me wondering the same thing. And based on another recent post here, Treasury Direct requires medallion signatures.

Agreed. The several mentions of Treasury Direct's medallion requirement make me concerned about suggesting I Bonds. At the very least, if this is correct, it needs to be mentioned in the I Bond section of the Wiki.

[Alskar]

I had ML require a Med. Signature Guarantee to transfer out. IMO it is just the last step to increase the marginal cost of switching institutions. The specifics of a Sig Guarantee can be very difficult and if you have to get 2 people to sign at once - it can be even more of a headache. I believe these institutions are hoping the Signature Guarantee dissuades all but the most determine leavers to stay put.

I had the same experience with Merrill Lynch (ML) and I agree that it is just yet another barrier to keep customers.

Fortunately for me, I worked directly across the street from a Fidelity office. I am a Fidelity customer. They gave me the Medallion Signature Guarantee for free with no appointment needed. Took less than 10 minutes. Fidelity even mailed the forms for me even though I wasn't rolling over into a Fidelity account.

I now use Fidelity for all of my notary and Medallion Signature guarantees.

[nisiprius]

Series I savings bonds are issued to you and can't be transferred. So requirements for a transfer wouldn't apply. I admit that I haven't tried withdrawing, but I think if you want to redeem, you just withdraw directly into your bank account. I can't just try it with a small amount just to find out, because my oldest I bond is less than a year old.

TIPS are regular securities, and it's been a long time since I transferred them--from Legacy Treasury Direct, not Treasury Direct--but at that time I need a medallion signature guarantee.

So, I think it is an issue for TIPS held directly at Treasury Direct, but not I bonds.

[Steelersfan]

When I did a balance transfer of my 401K at Dreyfus to an IRA at Vanguard five years ago, Dreyfus required one.

I have a local bank branch that I do business with and I was able to get one from an officer at the local branch pretty easily.

I don't know if they still do them today.

[jsl11]

Series I savings bonds are issued to you and can't be transferred. So requirements for a transfer wouldn't apply.

I recently redeemed paper HH bonds. The medallion guarantee was required.
Jeff

[webslinger]

We have had to obtain Medallion Signature guarantees on several occasions when transferring securities from one financial institution to another. It is one of the reasons that we maintain active accounts at a large commercial brick and mortar bank. Somehow I also get the sense that having banked at our local branch for many years and personally knowing the staff and managers has always made the request and process very smooth. They still do verify our government issued IDs, signature card and document the transaction. But it is fast, simple and pleasant. We also have a safe deposit box at this bank to hold important original documents.

By the way, for whatever reason our local savings bank and credit union do not offer this service.

Webslinger

[mlipps]

Where would a person go for a medallion signature in the following scenario?

Owns home, no mortgage.
Checking account with $2k at online bank (just to pay bills)
No relationship with any local bank or credit union.
All assets at custodian A.
Wants to do a rollover to Custodian B or cash in an I Bond.

This type of situation can't be that rare. There has to be some solution.

I would love an answer to this, as my recent experience has me wondering the same thing. And based on another recent post here, Treasury Direct requires medallion signatures.

Agreed. The several mentions of Treasury Direct's medallion requirement make me concerned about suggesting I Bonds. At the very least, if this is correct, it needs to be mentioned in the I Bond section of the Wiki.

As I said above, Chase is willing to do it with a CC account. I wonder if others do the same. Surely most people have one of those from a major bank if nothing else.

[LadyGeek]

...The several mentions of Treasury Direct's medallion requirement make me concerned about suggesting I Bonds. At the very least, if this is correct, it needs to be mentioned in the I Bond section of the Wiki.

Medallion signatures are required here:How Do I Transfer Securities from Legacy Treasury Direct to TreasuryDirect, which appears to be used for transferring existing securities to the online version. I don't use TreasuryDirect, but I don't see where else a Medallion signature is needed (for individuals).

[webslinger]

Mlipps wrote:
As I said above, Chase is willing to do it with a CC account. I wonder if others do the same. Surely most people have one of those from a major bank if nothing else.

Mlipps, you are correct. Chase considers a holder of a Chase credit card to be a customer and will provide Medallion Signature Guarantee service, notary service etc.


Webslinger

[archbish99]

...The several mentions of Treasury Direct's medallion requirement make me concerned about suggesting I Bonds. At the very least, if this is correct, it needs to be mentioned in the I Bond section of the Wiki.

Medallion signatures are required here:How Do I Transfer Securities from Legacy Treasury Direct to TreasuryDirect, which appears to be used for transferring existing securities to the online version. I don't use TreasuryDirect, but I don't see where else a Medallion signature is needed (for individuals).

They've recently added the requirement that adding a new linked bank account requires a medallion guarantee on the form with the bank info. (See page 2, here.) They also require medallion guarantees on Powers of Attorney to allow the agent to interact with Treasury Direct. (Page 2, here.) In both cases, they explicitly say that notarization is not acceptable, which is one reason they ignore most POAs, since all 50 states consider a POA valid with a notarized signature.

[nisiprius]

Series I savings bonds are issued to you and can't be transferred. So requirements for a transfer wouldn't apply.

I recently redeemed paper HH bonds. The medallion guarantee was required.
Jeff

That's unsettling. I've redeemed paper EE bonds a couple of times; I just handed them across the counter to a bank teller, maybe ten minutes in the bank altogether.

I don't quite understand what the medallion signature guarantee could possibly be "guaranteeing" since series I and series EE savings bonds have your name, address, and social security number literally printed on the bond itself, and match those of my bank account.

Did your series HH bonds not have your current name/address/SSN on them? Or was it the case that you had neither a physical bank account nor a Treasury Direct account?