401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

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fcirullo
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401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

I need your help with ideas that can improve the wiki article Setting up a 401(k) plan.

Now that you are getting annual fee disclosures and quarterly statements from service providers that show how much money you pay for the 401(k) plan, do you have any ideas that should be included in the Wiki article Setting up a 401(k) plan?

Note: The idea of the article is to show employers how to set up, manage, and monitor a truly low cost 401(k) plan. But the idea is also to show employees what a low cost plan really looks like so that they can communicate to their employer ideas on how to improve their current 401(k)plan.

Any ideas that you can provide on helping employers and employees to be aware of and actually find this article would be appreciated as well! As of today, Setting up a 401(k) plan has been accessed 15,543 times.

Best wishes,

Frank R. Cirullo
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
krayzbone227
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by krayzbone227 »

How about making mention of Revenue Sharing? As in for current plan admins to contact their providers to procure their plan's Revenue Sharing table so that they can see how additional fees are built into the expense ratios. For those just planning on beginning 401(k) plans for their company altogether, they too should get these upfront.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by Watty »

I might have missed it but one of the benefits for an employer of having a 401k is that it will help attract and keep better and more stable employees so you might want to add that. If I was interviewing with a company and found out that they did not have a decent 401k then I would be unlikely to accept a job there since they would be unlikely to pay me enough extra to make it worthwhile.

As an employer I would also have to wonder how wise it would be to depend on employees that were not very good at looking out for their own interests(within reason) and were willing to work for a company without a 401K. The problem is that if they are not good at looking out for their own interests then they would likely also not be very good at looking out for the employers interests.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

krayzbone227 wrote:How about making mention of Revenue Sharing?
Great idea! Would saying something like this help to make your points about revenue sharing?

Revenue sharing is money that plan providers receive from many of the 401(k) plan's mutual funds. Revenue sharing can be given back to the plan participants, or it can used to offset administration fees. Fiduciaries should consider the consequences of failing to disclose how revenue sharing is used to help pay for the plan's expenses. Therefore, it would be a mistake not to ask for a Revenue Sharing table that shows which funds have revenue sharing and how those fees are used.
Watty wrote:I might have missed it but one of the benefits for an employer of having a 401k is that it will help attract and keep better and more stable employees so you might want to add that.
Another great idea! Perhaps we could say it this way:

Employers - One of the benefits for an employer of having a 401k is that it will help attract and keep better and more stable employees.
Employees - If a company does not have a decent 401(k) plan, consider if the pay, skills you are picking up, and other benefits are enough to make working there worthwhile.

Note to everyone: If you have ideas for the wiki article, or you have a better way of making a point that someone has posted, please chime in. Also, if you feel that something should not be mentioned in the article, please let us know.

Edited on 02/28/2013 and 03/01/2013 to fix a typographical error.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by krayzbone227 »

Do you think it makes sense to mention, to whatever degree, 401(k)/Profit Sharing combos?
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

For this particular wiki article, I would like to keep as simple as possible by simply showing employers and employees how to set up, manage, and monitor a 401(k) plan--fast. I believe you are talking about a "Combo Plan” that combines a Defined Contribution (401k Profit Sharing) Plan and Defined Benefit Pension Plan. Right?
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by LadyGeek »

fcirullo wrote:Revenue sharing is money that plan providers receive from many of the 401(k) plan's mutual funds. Revenue sharing can be given back to the plan participants, or it can used to offset administration fees. Fiduciaries should consider the consequences of failing to disclose how revenue sharing is used to help pay for the plan's expenses. Therefore, it would be a mistake not to ask for a Revenue Sharing table that shows which funds have revenue sharing and how those fees are used.
Can you go into a little more detail and explain where the revenue sharing money comes from? A few years ago, my MegaEmployer's 401(k) plan provider was suing the fund managers for improper revenue sharing (they were revenue sharing among each other). I couldn't find out the details, nor the result, but all I was concerned about was - is this out of my returns?
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by peppers »

What about a vesting Schedule? My plan requires an individual to be with the company three years before the company match is vested.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by krayzbone227 »

LadyGeek wrote:
fcirullo wrote:Revenue sharing is money that plan providers receive from many of the 401(k) plan's mutual funds. Revenue sharing can be given back to the plan participants, or it can used to offset administration fees. Fiduciaries should consider the consequences of failing to disclose how revenue sharing is used to help pay for the plan's expenses. Therefore, it would be a mistake not to ask for a Revenue Sharing table that shows which funds have revenue sharing and how those fees are used.
Can you go into a little more detail and explain where the revenue sharing money comes from? A few years ago, my MegaEmployer's 401(k) plan provider was suing the fund managers for improper revenue sharing (they were revenue sharing among each other). I couldn't find out the details, nor the result, but all I was concerned about was - is this out of my returns?
Yeah, a provider must disclose that they USE revenue sharing, but not the actual amounts. In essence, and I think I can find an example from an actual plan's doc that I scanned, revenue sharing is part of an expense ratio. Some prospectii might include it in "other fees", but as a prospectus does not reflect "actual" figures as they pertain to your specific plan, even these might be misleading. These people are slick: because of how they're able to categorize revenue sharing it's a) not required to be disclosed, even with the new regulation and b) categorized in such a way and housed inside the expense ratio so as to make the participants THINK they're not being charged a "fee" but really are.

The new disclosure regulation requires your employer to outline fees, both generally and specifically. You might see that your boss pays for all the administrative expenses so you think you're sitting pretty. Well, that's likely not the case. The scary thing for your boss is that he can be held legally liable to all the participants for the fees, whether or not he's aware of them or understands them. He can, in turn, pursue the provider, and even if he "shares" or "transfers" the fiduciary risk to a third party, he's still liable for choosing that party.
krayzbone227
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by krayzbone227 »

fcirullo wrote:For this particular wiki article, I would like to keep as simple as possible by simply showing employers and employees how to set up, manage, and monitor a 401(k) plan--fast. I believe you are talking about a "Combo Plan” that combines a Defined Contribution (401k Profit Sharing) Plan and Defined Benefit Pension Plan. Right?
No, not really. I was referring to 401(k) vs 401(k)/Profit Sharing vs Profit Sharing as 3 different iterations, with your interest perhaps just on the first two.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by BillyG »

One of the features of a plan that employers should think about is whether to offer a brokerage option in addition to the specific investment funds listed in the plan. This option is important to some employees, and it may also be important to the employer in terms of the fees they pay. As part of setting up the brokerage option there may be a limit as to what percentage of an employee's 401(k) savings may be invested through the brokerage option and what percentage must stay in Plan funds. Also, the employer will need to decide on any fees payable through using the brokerage option.

For example, the plan funds may have fees that are higher than funds purchased from the mutual fund company (but sometimes they are lower such as Admiral share offerings for small balances, although they generally have higher fees than Admiral shares purchased outside the 401(k)). The point is these extra fund fees go to pay 401(k) expenses for the Plan. If the funds offered through a brokerage option are available with no surcharge then they don't generate the fees to pay for the 401(k). Thus some 401(k) plans limit the percentage of an employee's 401(k) assets that can be invested through their brokerage option.

I found this out when I tried to create my investment plan and learned I must keep 5% of my 401(k) assets in Plan funds. Although it's pretty great to be able to invest 95% of my 401(k) assets through a brokerage option to access funds I want at lower fees, I might have tailored my investment plan a little differently to account for this limitation.

This is the employee view -- the employer needs to consider the flip side as they make decisions about setting up their plan.

Billy
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

LadyGeek wrote:Can you go into a little more detail and explain where the revenue sharing money comes from? A few years ago, my MegaEmployer's 401(k) plan provider was suing the fund managers for improper revenue sharing (they were revenue sharing among each other). I couldn't find out the details, nor the result, but all I was concerned about was - is this out of my returns?
Hi LadyGeek,
Yes, it is the investor who pays the myriad of mutual fund fees! And those fees do lower your annual returns. Share classes such as A, B, C, D, etc., plus the 12b-1 fee can create the illusion that a 401(k) plan that has revenue sharing costs the participants less than another 401(k) plan that only has a menu of low cost index funds with no revenue sharing. Informed plan sponsors such as the folks that manage The Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) use low cost index funds that don't have revenue sharing because it's smart, and they avoid the fiduciary problems that revenue sharing can cause.

I'm thinking of starting a new thread that would have a discussion on the pros and cons of revenue sharing. That way the wiki article, "Setting up a 401(k) plan" could link to it. What do you think of that idea? A separate thread could have a discussion on the pros and cons of using a vesting schedule. Or do you think the wiki article should just link to this thread?
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

krayzbone227 wrote:I was referring to 401(k) vs 401(k)/Profit Sharing vs Profit Sharing as 3 different iterations, with your interest perhaps just on the first two.
Please cobble a short paragraph that says what you think employers and employees need to know about this topic. Okay?
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

peppers wrote:What about a vesting Schedule? My plan requires an individual to be with the company three years before the company match is vested.
I'm not sure what you have in mind. Please elaborate.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by LadyGeek »

fcirullo wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:Can you go into a little more detail and explain where the revenue sharing money comes from? A few years ago, my MegaEmployer's 401(k) plan provider was suing the fund managers for improper revenue sharing (they were revenue sharing among each other). I couldn't find out the details, nor the result, but all I was concerned about was - is this out of my returns?
Hi LadyGeek,
Yes, it is the investor who pays the myriad of mutual fund fees! And those fees do lower your annual returns. Share classes such as A, B, C, D, etc., plus the 12b-1 fee can create the illusion that a 401(k) plan that has revenue sharing costs the participants less than another 401(k) plan that only has a menu of low cost index funds with no revenue sharing. Informed plan sponsors such as the folks that manage The Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) use low cost index funds that don't have revenue sharing because it's smart, and they avoid the fiduciary problems that revenue sharing can cause.

I'm thinking of starting a new thread that would have a discussion on the pros and cons of revenue sharing. That way the wiki article, "Setting up a 401(k) plan" could link to it. What do you think of that idea? A separate thread could have a discussion on the pros and cons of using a vesting schedule. Or do you think the wiki article should just link to this thread?
This thread is already mixing a number of topics. If you can split them out, that's great.

As for the wiki, remember that it must represent all perspectives fairly from a neutral point of view. (See: Wikipedia:Five pillars, 2nd point) The forum has no such restriction. :)

An introductory overview / summary on each topic would be good, then point to the appropriate thread for follow-up.

==============================================
Getting back to revenue sharing, are you saying these fees are a normal course of business? Is this the same as the promotional fees paid by funds to investment advisers for carrying their products?

My questions should give you an idea on the amount of education needed. Examples would be very helpful. (Answer in a new thread if you want.)
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by peppers »

Looking at my plan's SPD,

Company Match will vest after three years of service.

If you become disabled while an Eligible Employee, your Company Match will vest immediately.

If you are age 65, your Company match will vest immediately.

Upon your Termination of Employment on or after the date you are retirement eligible, your Company Match will vest immediately. Subject to provisions in the Plan. <<<< A lot of what if's, then's, but not before.....you get the idea.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

LadyGeek wrote:This thread is already mixing a number of topics. If you can split them out, that's great.
I'll start two new threads. I think each thread should have a poll and a discussion. Then I'll put a link to the thread in the wiki article. Unless someone has a better idea, the questions will be as follows:
Question: 401(k) - Does your plan have revenue sharing?
Discussion: From the employer's point of view, what are the pros and cons of revenue sharing?
Discussion: From the employees' point of view, what are the pros and cons of revenue sharing?
krayzbone227, thank you for suggesting this topic!

Question: 401(k) - Does your plan have a vesting schedule?
Discussion: From the employer's point of view, what are the pros and cons of having a vesting schedule?
Discussion: From the employees' point of view, what are the pros and cons of having a vesting schedule?
peppers, thank you for suggesting this topic!
LadyGeek wrote:As for the wiki, remember that it must represent all perspectives fairly from a neutral point of view. (See: Wikipedia:Five pillars, 2nd point) The forum has no such restriction. :)

An introductory overview / summary on each topic would be good, then point to the appropriate thread for follow-up.
After we some get some responses in the threads mentioned above, I'll write an introductory overview on each topic for the wiki article and provide a link to each thread.
LadyGeek wrote:Getting back to revenue sharing, are you saying these fees are a normal course of business? Is this the same as the promotional fees paid by funds to investment advisers for carrying their products? My questions should give you an idea on the amount of education needed. Examples would be very helpful. (Answer in a new thread if you want.)
I'll give my answer in the new thread, and I hope that one or more of the TPAs will chime in on the question Are these fees a normal course of business.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by LadyGeek »

I would leave out the polls, as there is no control on the responses. IOW, anyone (not just 401(k) participants) can click on any selection without verification. The results can't be trusted.

My question on revenue sharing goes beyond 401(k) plans. Or, perhaps I don't understand the difference between revenue sharing and fees paid by funds to promote their products (compensation paid to investment advisers).
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

LadyGeek wrote:My question on revenue sharing goes beyond 401(k) plans. Or, perhaps I don't understand the difference between revenue sharing and fees paid by funds to promote their products (compensation paid to investment advisers).
Other folks, here, may want to provide more details, but basically it's like this:

Expense Ratio: Ongoing expenses that you pay, which include an administrative costs, a money manager expense, and perhaps a 12B-1 fee.

12B-1 fee: If a fund has this fee, it goes toward paying the experts to promote the fund.

No-load fund: You pay no up front or back end commission or sales charge.

Load fund: Loads are fees that are used to compensate experts for selling you the mutual fund. Breakpoints give large investors a discount by lowering the the front-end charges

Front-end loads: You pay a fee up front.

Back end load and deferred sales charge: You pay a fee if you sell the fund within a certain time frame.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by learning_head »

Watty wrote:If I was interviewing with a company and found out that they did not have a decent 401k then I would be unlikely to accept a job there since they would be unlikely to pay me enough extra to make it worthwhile.
I wonder if it is useful to expand on this and suggest some rule of thumb on how the fees and/or size of expense ratios in perspective company's 401(k) should be evaluated vs additional income required to compensate for any shortcomings. In other words, if you are considering offers between companies A and B, and thinking of maxing out your 401k contributions, and if difference in their fees is X and average difference in their fund ratios is Y, adjust compensation difference by ... ?

(There are of course also intangible differences, i.e. an indication of how the company is likely to care for its employees in general)
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

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fcirullo wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:My question on revenue sharing goes beyond 401(k) plans. Or, perhaps I don't understand the difference between revenue sharing and fees paid by funds to promote their products (compensation paid to investment advisers).
(list below reformatted) Other folks, here, may want to provide more details, but basically it's like this:
  • Expense Ratio: Ongoing expenses that you pay, which include an administrative costs, a money manager expense, and perhaps a 12B-1 fee.
  • 12B-1 fee: If a fund has this fee, it goes toward paying the experts to promote the fund.
  • No-load fund: You pay no up front or back end commission or sales charge.
  • Load fund: Loads are fees that are used to compensate experts for selling you the mutual fund. Breakpoints give large investors a discount by lowering the the front-end charges
  • Front-end loads: You pay a fee up front.
  • Back end load and deferred sales charge: You pay a fee if you sell the fund within a certain time frame.
That explains what I missed, thanks. I assume that I'm not the only one who didn't understand, so perhaps this relationship could be incorporated into the wiki article: Mutual Funds and Fees? Knowing this information, I see the wiki describes what loads are, but the concepts in reference to the above are not clear (the content is correct, but I'm missing these points). I'll wait for your thread.

BTW, I'm vested immediately in my employer's 401(k) plan.
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by peppers »

Here's a link from Department of Labor's website for more information about investing for retirement.

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/investing.html
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

BillyG wrote:One of the features of a plan that employers should think about is whether to offer a brokerage option in addition to the specific investment funds listed in the plan. This option is important to some employees, and it may also be important to the employer in terms of the fees they pay. As part of setting up the brokerage option there may be a limit as to what percentage of an employee's 401(k) savings may be invested through the brokerage option and what percentage must stay in Plan funds. Also, the employer will need to decide on any fees payable through using the brokerage option.

For example, the plan funds may have fees that are higher than funds purchased from the mutual fund company (but sometimes they are lower such as Admiral share offerings for small balances, although they generally have higher fees than Admiral shares purchased outside the 401(k)). The point is these extra fund fees go to pay 401(k) expenses for the Plan. If the funds offered through a brokerage option are available with no surcharge then they don't generate the fees to pay for the 401(k). Thus some 401(k) plans limit the percentage of an employee's 401(k) assets that can be invested through their brokerage option.

I found this out when I tried to create my investment plan and learned I must keep 5% of my 401(k) assets in Plan funds. Although it's pretty great to be able to invest 95% of my 401(k) assets through a brokerage option to access funds I want at lower fees, I might have tailored my investment plan a little differently to account for this limitation.

This is the employee view -- the employer needs to consider the flip side as they make decisions about setting up their plan.

Billy
Great point! In a day or so I'll start a new thread so that others can chime in on How to set up low cost Self-Directed Brokerage Accounts within their 401(k) plan. Then, I'll link the wiki article to the new thread. Please make your point again in that thread. Okay?
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by BillyG »

fcirullo wrote:Great point! In a day or so I'll start a new thread so that others can chime in on How to set up low cost Self-Directed Brokerage Accounts within their 401(k) plan. Then, I'll link the wiki article to the new thread. Please make your point again in that thread. Okay?
OK, I'll try to keep an eye out for it.

Billy
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (401(k)).
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Re: 401(k) - I need your help with ideas for a wiki article.

Post by fcirullo »

Thank you for your great ideas! So far, I've started threads on a couple of your ideas but still need to start a thread on peppers' idea on vesting.

You've come up with good ideas such as including information on revenue sharing, Self-Directed Brokerage Accounts, and vesting. If you have more ideas that could be included in the wiki article Setting up a 401(k) plan , please let us know by posting them here.

Best wishes!

Frank R. Cirullo
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