Should I take the full-time offer? Results!

[Curlyq]

xxxxx

[Calm Man]

Curlyq, this whole thing is weird. It is rare (I think) for a "professor" to get only 2 weeks a year of vacation and to get so few days off. And you work for a "company" which is unusual for the health care teaching profession. I don't think it matters whether you take the job full time or not as I would start looking to get out of there.

[LadyGeek]

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (employment issues).

You've already made the decision - it's your gut reaction to refuse the offer. What you're doing now is to reaffirm this decision in the forum.

From that perspective-

This company is playing games with you. There's no other reason to wait until the last day of the pay period. Perhaps they may change their mind in the next one? You can negotiate your working conditions at any time.

I don't see how refusing an offer can be seen hurting your reputation at the company unless it's seen as refusing a promotion. Not accepting the job due to salary is a perfectly acceptable reason to stay where you are.

[Fallible]

[Personally identifiable information removed by admin LadyGeek]

Curlyq,

Given your tight deadline, I would try hard to set aside for now what has happened with the late offer, pay issue, etc., and decide whether you want to do this work and why. You say if the offer had come in sooner and for more money, you would have accepted immediately. That suggests you would be okay with the extra work itself. If so and you accept it, you could then continue to decide what your future might be with this company. And, of course, this would give you the time you need to make a difficult decision.

I hope this helps and I wish you good luck.

Fallible

[damjam]

If you are still interested in this "promotion" I think you need to throw the ball back into your boss's court.
"This is not what we agreed to." is all you say regarding the not backdating the change in status. Don't say anything more.

OTOH, It sounds like you don't really want the new position, and if you had known all the facts at the outset, you never would have agreed to taking on the additional work load. So don't feel pressured into taking the job now.

As far as your standing at the company after this, I think If they are so short staffed that they need you to teach additional courses, I don't see how they could refuse your offer to teach the course load you originally had. Refusing a bad offer will not lessen your status.

[Curlyq]

Thank you all for the responses. Your opinions and ideas are helping me with my decision.

xxxxx

I really appreciate the quick and thoughtful responses!

[gator15]

I would refuse the offer. Your workload is increasing, yet your salary isn't (not much anyway). What's the point in the extra vacation days if you can't use them since they don't have someone to backfill you in your absence.

[livesoft]

I would tell them no and counteroffer with reasons why and exactly what you want. Stand firm. Watch what happens.

May I ask if you are a woman? Women tend not to negotiate in these situations while men do.

[Fallible]

Thank you all for the responses. Your opinions and ideas are helping me with my decision. [Personally identifiable information removed by admin LadyGeek]...

This is good for us to know as it makes not accepting a viable alternative.

[lightheir]

I don't like the way your boss is handling it. First off, he's changing the original offer, and then giving you too little time to decide. If he really valued you, he should by trying to find ways to make this work for both of you, and at least explain why he needs to force you to be on such a schedule.

Furthermore, you have a crucial advantage in your quiver as you said : "I'm paid for all of the hours I teach, I accrue half-time vacation (40 hours a year), I can and do participate fully in all of the retirement options, and I receive the same benefits package as the full-time staff."

With that in hand, I don't see any compelling reason to work more for a lower rate, unless you specifically really needed that money for essentials. And I wouldn't consider a bigger nest egg for retirement an essential in this situation. If I didn't have outstanding vital bills to pay, I'd sit tight, thank them for their consideration, and keep doing what you were doing. I think you'd be surprised at how they'd change their tune if you continue as a high level proven performer.

I wasn't in a similar situation, but I was hired with my group as a part-timer with less than half time work at first. They weren't interesting in hiring a full new person due to uncertainties in the job market. I made it my point to do the best job possible, even if it meant staying later hours, and I also strove to cultivate relationships with everyone, from the higher ups to the cleaning lady. It was only a matter of weeks before the good word was going around. The whole time, I never pushed for more - just kept trying to improve my end and do a better job. I'm fortunate in that it worked out for me, as I'm sure in a different situation it could have played out differently, but I was promptly offered a full time position within the year, and the group was happy at that point to carve out resources to put me on board despite not having planned for it earlier. Good proven employees are worth keeping.

[Curlyq]

xxxxx

[DualIncomeNoDebt]

Decline and counter-offer, and state this isn't what you agreed to. Stick to your guns.

I have a strong sense it will gnaw at you morning, noon and night if you agree to this shotgun offer.

[xzhou]

Decline and counter-offer, and state this isn't what you agreed to. Stick to your guns.

I have a strong sense it will gnaw at you morning, noon and night if you agree to this shotgun offer.

Exactly. The consequence of accepting this shotgun offer will also include even less respect from that boss.

[Carl53]

Decline and counter-offer, and state this isn't what you agreed to. Stick to your guns.

I have a strong sense it will gnaw at you morning, noon and night if you agree to this shotgun offer.

Exactly. The consequence of accepting this shotgun offer will also include even less respect from that boss.

Decline, however your thought of several thousand extra being sufficient is selling yourself way to short and will also earn you less respect from the boss as someone that cannot properly value oneself.

I'd suggest declining, citing that you would have needed say a 40% bump and several weeks vacation to consider full time. You would consider helping them out for the current semester by continuing the current classes under the current arrangement of pay by the hour. They owe you for the hours worked thus far. If they try to cheat you or otherwise underhandedly cheat you, be looking for a new position immediately. Not sure if they would deserve any notice since they gave you none.

[johnep]

Your boss handled the offer very poorly. He clearly did not bargain in good faith or try to treat you fairly. I do not know if he truly represents the company or that is just him, either way it makes for a difficult relationship. As long as he is there, you will not get a fair deal. Best wishes.

[Random Poster]

[Personally identifiable information removed by admin LadyGeek]

I don't understand how this problem is something that should concern you. Isn't this issue the school's problem?

[rotorhead]

Do not accept this offer! Your boss is a person of weak character, and is not to be trusted in this matter. From what you've said, you have more to offer them than they do you. Don't sell yourself short.

[DualIncomeNoDebt]

So what happened. Curious due to the tenor of the negotiations, we likely can learn from your experience.

[Curlyq]

xxxxx

[rob]

Just remember what side HR is on... It's NOT to help you.... despite what they like you to believe.

[damjam]

He's a bully plain and simple.
I think he didn't expect you to stand up for yourself.
Don't second guess yourself, if it wasn't this it would have been giving into his demands continuously.
Just remember you are in a good position financially and your job prospects are good.

HR may be helpful or it may not. Company culture is everything. Also it may depend on whether you have any allies in management.

In the worst case scenario, the other thing to keep in mind is that if you do eventually leave this company for another, the chance of this conflict reaching the light of day is next to none. Companies generally only give dates of employment and no other information when requested from potential future employers. To do otherwise would open your current employer to a potential lawsuit by you.

[livesoft]

Good on you! I would have left the meeting feeling empowered and in a great mood.

Indeed, if he asks to meet on Monday, tell him you are busy and reschedule at a time convenient to YOU.

OTOH, instead of declining the offer outright, I might have said something like "As the offer stands, I cannot accept it. I would be more comfortable if the offer included (a) ..., (b) ..., and (c) ...."

[cherijoh]

It is probably more complex because of the class prep hours, but I think it is illegal to classify a full-time employee as part-time to avoid paying full benefits. Haven't there been law suits against Walmart for such practices? It does sound like your boss was trying to pull a fast one over on you when he gave you a full time load and didn't make you full time back then. Now, since he got away with it the first time, he's trying it again!

I would suggest you list your previous load (class room hours, prep hours, etc.) and what you were getting paid + detail the benefits. Assign a dollar value to the benefits, too. Then do the same thing for the new situation. Have it all on a piece of paper in black and white. You want to be able to demonstrate they are basically asking you to do the additional work for free (or at a much reduced rate) and the difference could not possibly be due to the added "benefits". I think this will help keep the discussion on a factual basis and also show the boss up for the schmuck he is! You also may want to google the fair labor laws in your state to see if there is any kind of state ombudsman out there that you could talk to. Obviously this couldn't be done before Monday, but if there is in fact such a person you could certainly mention that you will be talking to him or her about the college's unfair labor practices.

Unfortunately, Rob is right about HR looking out for the interests of the employer - although they might be the voice of reason with this guy if he is trying to pull off something shady. They really don't want to be sued, plus they would be aware of the difficulties of finding another instructor at this point in the game.

C

[tibbitts]

[Personally identifiable information removed by admin LadyGeek]

Unless there are contractural issue that we're not aware of, he's probably entitled to cut your hours to zero if he wants. And you're entitled to cut your own hours to zero at any time.

HR isn't your friend in this situation. It's probably deteriorated to the point where you both need to move on.

Paul

[Curlyq]

xxxxx

[linuxuser]

[Personally identifiable information removed by admin LadyGeek]

Of course, it was all his doing. HR doesn't get involved with any of that.

However, don't be surprised if management takes it as a bunch of "pampered" women who have had it easy, and he is just the guy to "whip everyone in shape".
It could be very well that management is playing hardball and in on what he is doing. I don't have much faith in corporate America (mainly male).

[Bengineer]

From the story that has unfolded here, some legal advice might be in order. Remember that HR is in place to protect the company from liability for say, your boss' behavior.

[LawProf]

When you go to HR, tell them you think he treated you this way because you are a woman. Complaining about sex discrimination is protected activity that gives you an extra layer of protection.

[mdpsychcrnp]

Curly,
I second Lawprof's suggestion. My suggestion would be to do the very thing that you have done throughout your nursing career, document, document, document. And present it to hr as a clear case of sex discrimination and bullying. The reality is that you are not some humanities instructor who is bound to the whims of your employer because your employment prospects elsewhere are slim. The fact is that you have knowingly chosen a job that pays less than what you would make in clinical practice, and if you are a CRNP, perhaps 50% less. If this fellow is unaware of this then perhaps he needs to be educated. You are not an easily replaceable commodity. Clearly what he is offering you is not only unethical based upon his previous commitments, but is an insult to your education and training. Hold fast to your self respect. Indeed if things go poorly then perhaps he is doing you a favor, and you are destined for greener pastures.

[Mill]

When you go to HR, tell them you think he treated you this way because you are a woman. Complaining about sex discrimination is protected activity that gives you an extra layer of protection.

I dont know about all of this. Sexual discrimination is very serious, and should be treated with high priorities, but Im not convinced that this is the issue here. Having read through the thread, Im not sure that "extreme measures" like this sexual discrimination need to be considerred at this point. If HR is going to get involved, I would suggest sticking to the facts, and not suggesting any type of discrimination.

Heres what we know... CurlyQ did not accept a promotion. The boss got pissed off and threatenned to cut hours. No need to embellish anything further IMHO.

Employers dont like the types who make unnecessary waves. Fight for yourself all you want to, but keep in mind you dont want to suggest anything that will black-list you to future potential employers either.

This is a tough situation, and I hope it all works out.

[z3r0c00l]

When you go to HR, tell them you think he treated you this way because you are a woman. Complaining about sex discrimination is protected activity that gives you an extra layer of protection.

Your first post on the forum was to say this? It is possible for a woman go get hassled at work without it being sexual discrimination, since it also happens to men all the time. Resist the temptation to use your gender or race as a crutch in this situation.

[lightheir]

[Personally identifiable information removed by admin LadyGeek]

Despite the unfortunate outcome, the silver lining is that this sounds like somebody you do not want to be beholden to.

Consider yourself lucky to have made the right decision and dodget a potential even worse situation down the road. It rarely ends with one request after someone realizes that they can foist unreasonable demands the first time.

[BL]

Curlyq,
I suggest you delete identifying info here as soon as you are through discussing it. This will stay on forever otherwise and you may not want anyone involved to read it and recognize you.

Good luck!

[LadyGeek]

As others have said, leave sex discrimination out of the discussion. It will be seen as an excuse and derail the purpose of these discussions. Here's the root cause:

[Personally identifiable information removed by me]

There could be flip side to the story. You don't know if he's a loose cannon or has been told to do "everything possible" to straighten out the financial situation. This guy may be on a mission from upper management to reduce costs without regard to the quality of education.

If this financial aid manager is leaving, I assume that you've talked to her? From this perspective, I would assume that someone with the longest tenure would have the highest pay. It makes sense to start pruning the staff at this point. He'll replace her with someone cheaper. It's not sex discrimination, just ruthless cost cutting.

The purpose of HR is to protect the reputation of the company. Go to HR with eyes wide-open. Present the facts that are relevant to you only, as mentioning what's happening to "others" suggests collusion and will lower your bargaining power to zero.

Attitude is everything - you need to act tough without a hint of weakness. State the facts clearly. Here's what the manager did- step a, b, c, d, and then he already put in the paperwork for the change without my knowledge. This is unacceptable...

If HR is experienced, they'll say "thanks for the info, we'll get back to you." What will happen next behind the scenes is either (1) we had no idea what this guy was doing, we need to do some due diligence to see if this has happened to others, or (2) this is the fallout from upper management to cut costs, we'll have to let the manager handle it and support his decisions.

In any case, prepare your resume and don't burn any bridges. Act courteously to everyone, even your manager.

BTW, if you want to remove personally identifiable information, any member is free to edit their own posts. Just click on the "Edit" button in the top right corner. To make the post readable, I would suggest "(personally identifiable information removed)." If you want to remove personally identifiable information from someone else's post (part of a quoted response), just PM me.

[Curlyq]

I am taking all of the feedback that you have provided and am crafting my response to the situation. I will provide an update once the situation plays out (could take some time). Thank you to all, your comments have been very helpful!

I am also deleting my posts in this thread and will ask the moderator to delete any quotes of my posts from this thread as well. Thanks again.

[LawProf]

When you go to HR, tell them you think he treated you this way because you are a woman. Complaining about sex discrimination is protected activity that gives you an extra layer of protection.

Your first post on the forum was to say this? It is possible for a woman go get hassled at work without it being sexual discrimination, since it also happens to men all the time. Resist the temptation to use your gender or race as a crutch in this situation.

The advice stands. First, there is mounds and mounds of research showing that men negotiate differently with women than they do with other men. Second, given the other factual details the OP raised about the boss' treatment of other women, there is at least a colorable claim that there is an element of gender bias at work here. Third, the OP does think that she is being treated this way, in part, because she is a woman. Fourth, raising the issue with HR immediately provides the OP with additional leverage and protection under federal law.

Insisting on being treated fairly and in accordance with federal law is not a crutch. While it is possible that the boss is a non-discriminatory jerk to men and women alike, it is also possible under the facts that he is harder on women. Raising this concern is completely fair at this stage.

[Curlyq]

I just wanted to give an update on my negotiations. I did contact HR with my concerns via an email and a follow up call (they are located in another state). The next day, my boss apologized to me for his actions the previous week. We continued to negotiate in good faith, but I stood firm and provided even more documentation to show the prevailing and competitive salaries for my position and in the area.

Today, he gave me another offer letter. The salary was raised over $10,000 higher than the previous offer. It's even a tiny bit higher than I was going to negotiate for, so I am thinking about the offer tonight and will give him an answer tomorrow.

Thank you again to all of those who responded and especially those who pm'd me with additional advice. This is what this forum is all about -- helping people make better decisions to positively change their lives!

[livesoft]

Nice! Now if I could just get my spouse to read this thread.

[Atilla]

Take that ten grand and ask for a little more. Always ask for a little more. Always. And have a disappointed tone when you do it.

Tell them another 5K above the extra 10K is what you were expecting. You'll get $2,500 to $3,000 more for about thirty seconds of work.

[damjam]

Congratulations!

[tibbitts]

Take that ten grand and ask for a little more. Always ask for a little more. Always. And have a disappointed tone when you do it.

Tell them another 5K above the extra 10K is what you were expecting. You'll get $2,500 to $3,000 more for about thirty seconds of work.

I'm happy for the OP having a seemingly favorable offer, but must comment that there are cases where asking for more will result in an offer being withdrawn. I'm not saying that would happen here, but it's dangerous to assume that any negotiating strategy is always safe/no-lose.

Paul

[Curlyq]

The salary is coming in at a higher level than I'd make at any of the competing schools and is above the salary range for my position. It's a very good offer. I am going to ask for a certain schedule that suits me, more paid time off (my boss alluded to this already, but I want to nail it down), and some other better working conditions and if these are even partially provided, I will be quite happy to accept.

[LadyGeek]

Same here!

It's amazing how that apology mysteriously appeared the day after a clear factual presentation of your case. Standing firm produced the results you wanted.

I'm in full agreement with tibbitts-
They went the extra mile to get a generous offer to you in a timely fashion, which was only done because they recognized your value to the company. Don't play any counter-offer games here (or don't push too hard - you have a good handle on this), as you are obligated to accept the offer to keep your reputation intact. Smile, look him straight in the eyes, shake his hand firmly, and say "I accept." This gets you off on the right foot, as everything is now set back to square one on your "new" relationship.

[Fallible]

The salary is coming in at a higher level than I'd make at any of the competing schools and is above the salary range for my position. It's a very good offer. I am going to ask for a certain schedule that suits me, more paid time off (my boss alluded to this already, but I want to nail it down), and some other better working conditions and if these are even partially provided, I will be quite happy to accept.

Great news and a I see a win-win for both of you! I would agree with other posters that accepting the offer (although "nailing down" the schedule is good) will get you both off to a new and promising start.