KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

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KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby 2stepsbehind » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:02 pm

A couple of weeks ago we had a discussion over whether a trust would be appropriate for a sizeable, but relatively modest figure. http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106739&p=1551136. I was stumbling around Forbes online and came across this article http://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2012/02/20/how-to-set-up-a-trust-fund-if-youre-not-rich/. I'm assuming the underlying fees have to be ridiculous, but still it might be of interest to those on the board. Anyone familiar with the KissTrust program?
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby mark18068 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:43 pm

From what I can tell, a "kiss trust" is actually the product name offered by a trust company http://www.kisstrust.com/home.htm . The fees actually seem pretty reasonable, and Vanguard funds are one of the available investment options. In terms of the 'quality' of the trust established, I have no idea. I would be interested to hear if anybody has dealt with these folks before as it seems like the product may have potential.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby 2stepsbehind » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:55 pm

mark18068 wrote:From what I can tell, a "kiss trust" is actually the product name offered by a trust company http://www.kisstrust.com/home.htm . The fees actually seem pretty reasonable, and Vanguard funds are one of the available investment options. In terms of the 'quality' of the trust established, I have no idea. I would be interested to hear if anybody has dealt with these folks before as it seems like the product may have potential.


Oh thats interesting. Where do you see Vanguard as an option?
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby mark18068 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:37 pm

2stepsbehind wrote:
mark18068 wrote:From what I can tell, a "kiss trust" is actually the product name offered by a trust company http://www.kisstrust.com/home.htm . The fees actually seem pretty reasonable, and Vanguard funds are one of the available investment options. In terms of the 'quality' of the trust established, I have no idea. I would be interested to hear if anybody has dealt with these folks before as it seems like the product may have potential.


Oh thats interesting. Where do you see Vanguard as an option?


http://www.kisstrust.com/investment.htm
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby mark18068 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:44 pm

mark18068 wrote:
2stepsbehind wrote:
mark18068 wrote:From what I can tell, a "kiss trust" is actually the product name offered by a trust company http://www.kisstrust.com/home.htm . The fees actually seem pretty reasonable, and Vanguard funds are one of the available investment options. In terms of the 'quality' of the trust established, I have no idea. I would be interested to hear if anybody has dealt with these folks before as it seems like the product may have potential.


Oh thats interesting. Where do you see Vanguard as an option?


http://www.kisstrust.com/investment.htm


Just found the catch - annual account fees are reasonable ($50 per year) and setup is too ($199 for first one, $99 subsequent) - but unless you use high cost funds, then a .5% annual admin fee is charged. And to use Vanguard, I'm betting that you will get stuck paying that.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby 2stepsbehind » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:51 pm

That seems comparable to Vanguard trust services, no?
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby mark18068 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:28 pm

2stepsbehind wrote:That seems comparable to Vanguard trust services, no?


Good point :happy
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby letsgobobby » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:10 am

Only under $1M.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Saving$ » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:56 am

This might be a better deal than Vanguard if you are looking for an institutional trustee.

Kiss seems to charge 0.5% of assets, plus $125 per distribution. From what I can tell this includes being trustee. So a modest $200k trust distributing annually would incur a fee of $1k + $125, or total annual fees of $1,125.

Vanguard seems to charge 0.7% of assets under $1mi, plus $2,500 for being trustee. So a modest $200k trust distributing annually would incur a fee of $1,400, plus $2,500, or total annual fees of $3,900.

Am I missing something? Seems like it might be a terrific solution for those with challenges a trust could help address, but with insufficient assets for a trust to make sense.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby mac808 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:03 am

I deal with a lot of trust companies. It's exceedingly difficult to find a decent trust company for trusts under $500k. So if these guys are good, then 50 basis points is a totally reasonable fee.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby PoeticalDeportment » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:41 pm

I was surprised to see this website (bogleheads.org) being used almost as an advertisement/endorsement for this product http://www.kisstrust.com/reviews.htm

It is somewhat concerning that a single posters individual comments/opinions about a particular product can be used to hijack the boglehead brand.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Texas hold em71 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:18 am

PoeticalDeportment wrote:I was surprised to see this website (bogleheads.org) being used almost as an advertisement/endorsement for this product http://www.kisstrust.com/reviews.htm

It is somewhat concerning that a single posters individual comments/opinions about a particular product can be used to hijack the boglehead brand.


Have you not seen the threads on PenFed, USAA, and Ally? Not to mention Schwab, Fidelity and (ahem) Vanguard? The sword cuts both ways. If Bogleheads don't like a company or its products, they will chime in with those opinions.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby in_reality » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:28 am

Texas hold em71 wrote:
PoeticalDeportment wrote:I was surprised to see this website (bogleheads.org) being used almost as an advertisement/endorsement for this product http://www.kisstrust.com/reviews.htm

It is somewhat concerning that a single posters individual comments/opinions about a particular product can be used to hijack the boglehead brand.


Have you not seen the threads on PenFed, USAA, and Ally? Not to mention Schwab, Fidelity and (ahem) Vanguard? The sword cuts both ways. If Bogleheads don't like a company or its products, they will chime in with those opinions.


True, but each and every thread labels the author. Taking a random posting of bogleheads and labeling it as bogleheads saying something isn't identifying the source of that opinion. There are things the the people running bogleheads won't put in their wiki. The fact that I may have a different opinion and state so, doesn't mean that someone should then attribute that opinion to bogleheads.org. Just because I post a comment at some news organization doesn't mean you can attritibute that comment to that news organization.

They are insinuating these organizations did a review of their product. They did not and it is misleading.
Last edited by in_reality on Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Dale_G » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:31 am

I agree posting snips from Bogleheads threads along side the Bogleheads logo and presenting them as "reviews" is definitely unseemly. It would make me steer away from these guys. I don't think they will include this post in their "reviews".

I am advising admin, but I don't know if anything can be done about it,

Scroll down on the link the see the problem. http://www.kisstrust.com/reviews.htm

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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Draak » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:56 am

delete
Last edited by Draak on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby in_reality » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:06 am

Draak wrote:They have a header on the quotes list that says "What people are saying" so I think that is their out. The don't say those organizations endorse them. Yahoo finance etc, probably all the same - they are just grabbing random quotes of what people said about the product or concept.


No way.

OK I say "trading is the best. Day trading preferably. And pay an advisor 2-3%. Put all your money in one stock. No bonds."

Is Bogleheads.org saying that. No. Would any officially connected to Bogleheads.org say that. Heck no. So why don't they say "in_reality is saying that". Now in_reality, um me, has a trashed reputation because that is foolish.

So if I say KissTrust is awesome and it loses all your money, why should Bogleheads be attributed with that quote. If someone posts something racist on Forbes, should that comment be attributed to Forbes. No. Forbes never made the comment.

"What people are saying in comments at:" is very different from what the organization says. People write junk in comments and everyone knows it. They are being intentionally misleading and probably think it is a cute idea. Come on!
Last edited by in_reality on Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby damjam » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:38 am

in_reality wrote:"What people are saying in comments at:" is very different from what the organization says. People write junk in comments and everyone knows it. They are being intentionally misleading and probably think it is a cute idea. Come on!

Advertising is almost always misleading. The question here is, have they broken any laws?
I don't know the answer to that.
Of course, it is extremely irritating and if I were the owner of this site I would be looking into my legal options. "Bogleheads" is a brand and should be protected as such.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Alex Frakt » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:25 am

Dale_G wrote:I agree posting snips from Bogleheads threads along side the Bogleheads logo and presenting them as "reviews" is definitely unseemly. It would make me steer away from these guys. I don't think they will include this post in their "reviews".

I am advising admin, but I don't know if anything can be done about it,

Scroll down on the link the see the problem. http://www.kisstrust.com/reviews.htm

Dale

I sent the following to their contact e-mail
I am the owner of the bogleheads.org domain. You have included several extracts from an ongoing thread about your site on http://www.kisstrust.com/reviews.htm .

We did not and do not give permission for you to use our copyrighted logo and the trademarked Bogleheads name on your site. Please remove them.

Furthermore, our forum copyright policy states "Post authors (regardless of standing) retain the exclusive right to republish their original material in any medium or website outside the forum except where this right is limited by fair use and any applicable laws. In other words, no one can sell or reuse your words outside the forum without your express permission, but you can sell or reuse them without ours." If you have not contacted the authors in question, you may be in violation of their rights as well.

Notwithstanding the above, I will give permission for you to use our logo and name for any thread that covers your services on our site if and only if the accompanying text contains nothing more than the title of the thread on our site, a link to it [i.e., viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952 ], and (optionally) a small amount of explanatory text that clearly comes from you.

To be clear, you may not use our name and logo alongside any extracts. The point is that we do not want our members words to be presented without the full context of the conversation in question.

I will followup with any reply. Until then, let's keep this to the OP's topic.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby prudent » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:12 am

Visiting kisstrust.com using the IE 8 browser, their website will only display a message that I need to upgrade my browser. First website I've ever encountered that does not accomodate IE 8 at all. I've had some not work perfectly, but never a site that essentially blocks content from IE 8. On my iPhone, it displays some content but none of the links work.

Must be one high-tech website.

(I know IE 8 is older, but there are reasons I don't upgrade.)
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Alex Frakt » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:47 pm

They responded:
Thank you for contacting us. Notwithstanding our belief that the content is in the public domain, our intent is not to misuse your site.

All references to your site are scheduled to be removed from www.kisstrust.com ..

This should be resolved by weeks end.

Regards,

Ned Armand

Edward “Ned” Armand
KissTrust
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby steadyeddy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:36 pm

Notwithstanding our belief that the content is in the public domain...


That is cheeky. They seem quite flippant about copyright and trademark law for a company peddling legal...ahem...self help products. I noticed their own intellectual property is protected by copyright, trademark, and patent, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I used it for my own purposes if I decide to believe it's public domain.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Scott S » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:47 pm

It's telling that they're so happy to see anything in the "public domain" that appears to support them, but livid if something in the public domain questions them. This just in, on the Mr Money Mustache forums: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/in ... this-blog/
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby magellan » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:33 pm

It looks like the Mr. Money Mustache dust up has made its way to Techdirt (with a bogleheads mention):
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201403 ... sues.shtml
Last edited by magellan on Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby hicabob » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:51 pm

magellan wrote:It looks like the Mr. Money Mustache dust up has make its way to Techdirt (with a bogleheads mention):
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201403 ... sues.shtml


That certainly blew up for them ! :oops:
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby turboLT » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:53 am

Long time no post, but I LOVE how this is getting blown up and want to contribute lol.

I frankly don't care how good their product is at this point, I'd never consider them based on their actions alone.

Decided not to stir the pot on the last bit, but needless to say I have a very low opinion of them.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby jasc15 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:36 am

Before I looked up what the Kiss Trust was, I thought Gene Simmons was involved. Would not have surprised me if he was.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Methedras » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:47 am

magellan wrote:It looks like the Mr. Money Mustache dust up has made its way to Techdirt (with a bogleheads mention):
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201403 ... sues.shtml


Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby Clever_Username » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:43 am

jasc15 wrote:Before I looked up what the Kiss Trust was, I thought Gene Simmons was involved. Would not have surprised me if he was.


Nah, he's got the KISS pro football team to worry about now. But I think I'm more likely to go to them than the trust.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby dgdevil » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:00 pm

jasc15 wrote:Before I looked up what the Kiss Trust was, I thought Gene Simmons was involved. Would not have surprised me if he was.


That would be a conflict with this:

http://www.coolspringslife.com/default2.htm

Gene Simmons - always one step ahead of the rest of us.
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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby deikel » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:31 pm

Is there actually anyone on this forum/circle who had true business dealings with them and could share the experience ? Pro or Con or has recieved equally silencing lawyer letters ?


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Re: KissTrust--trust accounts for the middle class?

Postby bhsince87 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:38 pm

Never heard of them before. And I have no kids, so our paths wouldn’t ordinarily cross.

But based on what they and/or their lawyers have done on the internet, I would never send a dime their way.
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