Considering going for PhD

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just_trailing
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Considering going for PhD

Post by just_trailing »

I am a working computer engineer. My bachelors degree is in Chemical engineering from a top international institute. I came to US 15 years ago for a master's program. Due to the industry scenario at the time, and being a novice, I switched to computer science (got master's degree). For last 12 years have been working as a computer engineer. I can almost say I have not enjoyed a single day of working. I had every intention to complete the master's degree in chemical engineering. Somehow that never happened (marriage, child, no evening classes nearby etc). Now I am at a point where I can't take it anymore. I feel I have wasted my life by not pursuing my intellectual interests. I have no idea what I will be doing if I stay in software industry for another 15 years. I am considering going for a PhD in Chem Eng. I could pay $25k tuition and get a distance Master's degree. But to me it is about building a network as well. Which I think will happen in a full time university setting. We have 1 child and 2nd on the way. Spouse does not work. Any advise is appreciated. Will be glad to share more specifics via private messages. Thanks.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by LadyGeek »

Welcome! There's no need to PM any specifics. What happened to your interest in medicine (March 18, 2012)? Subject: Medical career at 37?
just_trailing wrote:I am 37 and a working engineer. Married with one child, and only bread earner in the household. Don't own a home, and have reasonable savings to sail through 4 years of college. I was academically outstanding during high school and early part of college. Then due to some reasons, could not carry on at the same rate. Still completed a graduate degree in engineering, and have been working ~12 years now. Current income around 100k.
Is it too old to start thinking of med school now?
What unique challenges will I face?
I will leave my job right when med school starts.
Plan to study for MCAT part time. Have ~20hr/wk of spare time to study
Good physical and mental shape. Still can get a perfect score on standardized tests if I try.
Feel highly underutilized and bored with current work. Have looked at few other related lines of work, but each falls short in some respect.
Main motivation is to help aging family members without anyone having to pay for most of it.
I feel medicine is the most respected career in our society that is mostly based on academics
When I say academically outstanding I mean it. I find it great when I go to books and study.
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stoptothink
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by stoptothink »

I completed my PhD this past spring. I am a bit younger than you (was 30 at completion) and probably don't have the same responsibilities(wife or children, although I was married when I started the program) and it was still a painful process. There is a reason less than half of people who complete the course work for their PhD never complete their dissertation: IT SUCKS. I am proud that I was able to do it, but mostly I am just glad that it is over. Be sure that you have a direct goal in mind and that it will indeed help you with your career path. You are giving up a lot of immediate potential income and regardless of how frustrated you may be at work, I highly doubt it is worse than the dissertation process.

I am not saying don't do it, but be very clear that it will have a defined pay off.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by dbphd »

When I was a grad student there was the saying, "A PhD under 30 pays double." I was director of a research center that had probably about a dozen PhDs in EE and CS, most from Stanford, Berkeley, and MIT, mostly in their mid-20s. I don't know about chemistry, but it can be tough to compete with high energy highly driven kids. That you even addressed the question to this board is a source of worry. A doctoral program is nothing like a masters program, classes and the dissertation are the least of it. It's the scrutiny from the faculty who are concerned about the product they turn out and its impact of their own reputations. You should have no doubt that you want it.

db
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market timer
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by market timer »

I don't think there is much harm in trying. Take the GRE, get some recommendation letters, apply, and see if any program gives you funding for a PhD. You may be able to improve your chance by working in a research lab for the next year, for a substantial pay cut. I would not recommend paying $25K for a distance master's.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by cheese_breath »

just_trailing wrote:Somehow that never happened (marriage, child, no evening classes nearby etc)........We have 1 child and 2nd on the way.
Somehow? You chose to get married and have children. They have to be your top priority now. But if you can pursue a PHD without neglecting your family duties or making them sacrifice for your 'dream' then go for it. If not, then buck up, be a man and take care of your family.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by German Expat »

No idea how a PhD works in your field but my wife did a PhD in Accounting and it was a very hard 4 years and as somebody else already wrote quite a lot of people aborted it. You will not have much free time and work extremely hard with a lot of your colleagues being younger and not having family. Also her pay was really lousy which did not matter because of my job. She did like it though and went through with it and is now works in Academia.

How will you and your family live during those years ? Your salary won't sustain a family.

Which brings me to my other question, what is the goal of getting a PhD ? What do you plan to do afterwards ?
stoptothink
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by stoptothink »

dbphd wrote:A doctoral program is nothing like a masters program, classes and the dissertation are the least of it. It's the scrutiny from the faculty who are concerned about the product they turn out and its impact of their own reputations.
Yes, dealing with my mentor and the review board was the most frustrating part of the process. In my case it wasn't so much that I felt they were more concerned about their own reputations, but being scrutinized constantly by faculty who aren't necessarily experts in your very specific area of research made me want to scratch my eyes out. The actual research was great; putting together the literature review and proposal, then defending my dissertation was almost as fun (and as exhausting) as my divorce.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Erwin »

just_trailing wrote:I am a working computer engineer. My bachelors degree is in Chemical engineering from a top international institute. I came to US 15 years ago for a master's program. Due to the industry scenario at the time, and being a novice, I switched to computer science (got master's degree). For last 12 years have been working as a computer engineer. I can almost say I have not enjoyed a single day of working. I had every intention to complete the master's degree in chemical engineering. Somehow that never happened (marriage, child, no evening classes nearby etc). Now I am at a point where I can't take it anymore. I feel I have wasted my life by not pursuing my intellectual interests. I have no idea what I will be doing if I stay in software industry for another 15 years. I am considering going for a PhD in Chem Eng. I could pay $25k tuition and get a distance Master's degree. But to me it is about building a network as well. Which I think will happen in a full time university setting. We have 1 child and 2nd on the way. Spouse does not work. Any advise is appreciated. Will be glad to share more specifics via private messages. Thanks.
Let me tell you my story, maybe it will help you: I happen to have an BSc and MSc in Chemical Engineering, an MBA and PhD in Political Economy, in that order. I did my PhD immediately after I retire at 55 (now 64) for fun. Soon after starting my career at an Oil&Gas company in Houston, I realized that not only I did not like enough Chemical Engineering but was not good enough to make it big, meaning reaching a company head scientist level, or something like that. However, I did notice that I liked managing people, just from the distance since then I was a beginning engineer. So I got an "executive" MBA (evening Fridays and all day Saturdays, paid by the company) and advertised widely to my boss and others that I wanted to get into the management track. After suffering a few years as an engineer, they finally made me a supervisor. Well, 30+ years later, I retired in a very senior management position managing 100s of engineers.

Now, let me address your situation in general terms since I do not know enough about you: unless your interest is in R&D or teach, there is no point in becoming a PhD, in fact it is almost a waste of time, you should do the MSc in Chemical Engineering, but why not do it part time while you still work. You may even try to get a starting job as a Chemical Engineer now and agree with your employer to let you do the MSc, even pay for it. If you think that you want to get into research, then you must do your PhD in a top university, otherwise it is worse nothing.

You can write to me privately, and we can discuss in more details your situation.
Erwin
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Diogenes »

Likewise, similar to what Erwin did I am seriously considering pursuing a PhD when I retire from my current job, early next year. My goal? I have a fascination for the topic ( a subset of governance and International Affairs), and would like to teach in a University setting. My practical career has been in the same, but more hands on, area. My Masters was in the late 90's and my concern is that I am too far removed from the 25 year old PhD student that seems typical. My son is now off at college, and spouse is keeping herself busy while supportive of my desires. The program, at a European University would be three years with only part in resident. Application process seems orientated toward the recent graduate (asking for letters of recommendation from former professors, etc - I doubt they would even remember me a dozen years later).

Seems to be unusual to wait this long to pursue the PhD - is it, I wonder.

_D_
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StophJS
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by StophJS »

I can't offer much advice beyond what's already been offered here, but I would certainly say that you don't need to pay out of a pocket for a phd. Many school will waive tuition completely and offer a modest living stipend.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Call_Me_Op »

I strongly agree with the comment that a PhD is a waste of time unless you want to teach in a university setting.

I think the Op should try to land a job in chemical engineering to see if he really likes it. If so, pursue the MS part time on the company's nickel. That seems like the low-risk way to proceed, and the MS is generally sufficient to open any doors in industry - as long as you are technically competent.
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PhD in retirement

Post by VictoriaF »

I am interested in more details of mpt follower's and Diogenes's stories and stories of any other Bogleheads who have pursued doctorates in retirement. Were the faculty members supportive of an atypical student? Did it take more or less time than the normal duration of getting a PhD in that department? Was it necessary to have had publications in the field?

And there were probably some individuals who have started but dropped out of a PhD program. Were the reasons similar to typical a ABT (All But Thesis) or age-specific?

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Re: PhD in retirement

Post by Erwin »

VictoriaF wrote:I am interested in more details of mpt follower's and Diogenes's stories and stories of any other Bogleheads who have pursued doctorates in retirement. Were the faculty members supportive of an atypical student? Did it take more or less time than the normal duration of getting a PhD in that department? Was it necessary to have had publications in the field?

And there were probably some individuals who have started but dropped out of a PhD program. Were the reasons similar to typical a ABT (All But Thesis) or age-specific?

Victoria
My story is really simple: first I did extensive research on what I wanted to do before deciding on the PhD, then I looked at the type of research that the professors at the University close to me were doing and found one that met my interest, Austrian economics (pure luck!). Then I made an appointment with that professor and told him that I was willing to do research for him as part of a PhD for free, maning needed zero financial assistance. He loved the idea and for 4 years I went to school taking the requirements, some even on line, and in the last 18 months completed the work. It was really helpful that I knew what I wanted and could start working on it from day 1. I think that the fact that I had completed already academic studies and was matured, meaning I knew what I wanted, really helped. I even published a paper while working on my thesis, and I am now working with him to turn my work into paper. Please note that professors live out of publications.
One thing that exists now , which did not when I finished my previous University studies, is the Internet and email, which helped enormously and was critical to the duration of the work. Almost all my research was conducted through the Internet, via the University Library website and emails to authors/professors. I was amazed how easy it was to reach top researchers even of Nobel Prize caliber with questions.
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just_trailing
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by just_trailing »

Thanks for the replies so far. I am going to PM some of you. The program is in Canada and pays about $30K stipend. Am assuming healthcare for the family would be taken care of.
Callalily
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Callalily »

I'm in an entirely different field but definitely echo what the others have said. Only pursue a PhD if the institution will pay for it via an assistantship (check to make sure that all tuition and health insurance will be included). I do know a friend who pursued a PhD in Physics and his wife and children lived on his stipend, but they lived very frugally.

I'm not sure how appropriate it is to share a link to another website here, but the Chronicle of Higher Education forum http://chronicle.com/forums/ might be useful to you. The people there are very helpful and might be able to give you a more nuanced reply specific to your field and circumstances.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by tractorguy »

Do you know exactly what kind of Chemical Engineering you want to do and where you want to work? If so, contact the HR departments and/or directors of research of companies who are hiring those kinds of people and talk to them about your plan. You should ask them for curriculum and thesis topic advice and their opinion of the school you're planning to attend. Specifically ask them if they hire from that school. I suggest strongly that you verify that you'll have some employment options when you finish.

I have a PhD in mechanical engineering and was both a research engineer and an engineering manager for a large international company. We actively recruited PhD's with certain specialties from certain schools. That's because we hired PhD's to do focused research in certain areas. We hired from schools who had good programs in those areas. If you didn't have a thesis topic that matched a needed specialty or came from the wrong school, we wouldn't look at you.

As others have said, PhD's are primarily useful if you want to teach at the university level. They are also hired in private industry into research laboratories. If you want to do more traditional engineering (eg design stuff), a PhD is more of a hindrance than a help in getting a job. A bachelors or Master's degree tells a potential employer that you are a generalist with a good foundation of general knowledge. A PhD sends the message that you are a specialist who likes research. It also makes you too expensive for an entry level job.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by stoptothink »

tractorguy wrote:As others have said, PhD's are primarily useful if you want to teach at the university level. They are also hired in private industry into research laboratories. If you want to do more traditional engineering (eg design stuff), a PhD is more of a hindrance than a help in getting a job. A bachelors or Master's degree tells a potential employer that you are a generalist with a good foundation of general knowledge. A PhD sends the message that you are a specialist who likes research. It also makes you too expensive for an entry level job.
This is quite important to remember. A PhD sounds great, but in many cases it is not going to help you further your career track, it may even hinder it. In my case, other than a few teaching offers that I have zero interest in, it hasn't really helped at all. Not that it has hurt, but I probably could have procured my current position without even an MS and our VP was initially very concerned that I was overqualified and almost did not offer me the position because of it. It is imperative that you have a set goal in mind, otherwise it may be a complete waste of time and resources. Think about whether you want to put your family through that.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by porcupine »

stoptothink wrote:[...]Not that it has hurt, but I probably could have procured my current position without even an MS and our VP was initially very concerned that I was overqualified and almost did not offer me the position because of it.[...]
Of course it hurt. You lost a few years of your life pursuing the PhD (and MS).

OP: The rule of thumb (don't ask me why I was unaware of it when I was in my early 20s) should always be progressively go to a better school for Bachelor's --> Master's --> PhD degrees. I went the other way round! :oops:

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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by rwcox123 »

In my experience (as a former professor in Math and Computer Science) and my wife's experience (Math professor), it is nearly impossible for a person to (a) have a job, (b) have children at home, and (c) pursue a PhD program successfully. In the scheme of most people's priorities, (a) and (b) come first, but at some point, the student has to focus 100% on the PhD work for an extended period of time. I have seen several people try this in the departments I've been in, and they all failed.

The only person I know who successfully did this was my ex-wife's mother, who moved out of the house for an entire year (and took leave from her job) to finish her PhD dissertation -- my ex-wife dropped out of college for a year to take care of her younger siblings. And no one left behind at home liked this one bit, and they still grumbled about it when I met them about 8 years later.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by dbphd »

"I am interested in more details of mpt follower's and Diogenes's stories and stories of any other Bogleheads who have pursued doctorates in retirement. Were the faculty members supportive of an atypical student?"

Yes Victoria, you can expect age discrimination, and for good reason. A PhD program is an expensive proposition for the school that lavishes inordinate attention to grad students in a doctoral program, especially those requiring lab facilities. Why not expend that attention on a student who might have a 40 year career to contribute to their field rather than a retiree? A PhD is not a vanity plate. For those who plan a career of grant-supported research, it's a union card to principal investigator status; for those who plan to teach at the university level, it's a union card for faculty status. And for faculty in the sciences, PI status is a union card to tenure. So why would you squander such a valuable union card?

db
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by livesoft »

tractorguy wrote:....
As others have said, PhD's are primarily useful if you want to teach at the university level. They are also hired in private industry into research laboratories. If you want to do more traditional engineering (eg design stuff), a PhD is more of a hindrance than a help in getting a job. A bachelors or Master's degree tells a potential employer that you are a generalist with a good foundation of general knowledge. A PhD sends the message that you are a specialist who likes research. It also makes you too expensive for an entry level job.
The above is true, but I wanted to add that I believe that tractorguy et al. meant that PhD's in Engineering are primarily useful if you want to teach at the university level.

I think very few PhD recipients (in all fields) are teaching at the university level.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Diogenes »

dbphd wrote:"I am interested in more details of mpt follower's and Diogenes's stories and stories of any other Bogleheads who have pursued doctorates in retirement. Were the faculty members supportive of an atypical student?"

Yes Victoria, you can expect age discrimination, and for good reason. A PhD program is an expensive proposition for the school that lavishes inordinate attention to grad students in a doctoral program, especially those requiring lab facilities. Why not expend that attention on a student who might have a 40 year career to contribute to their field rather than a retiree? A PhD is not a vanity plate. For those who plan a career of grant-supported research, it's a union card to principal investigator status; for those who plan to teach at the university level, it's a union card for faculty status. And for faculty in the sciences, PI status is a union card to tenure. So why would you squander such a valuable union card?

db
DB, it seems that some Universities might appreciate students that have actually had real experience in the field instead of back to back degrees. Too many of those are currently without work, even with the PhD. I think a different experienced perspective and maturity could be an asset in a PhD program, especially one in the Political/Governance area. By the way, someone transitioning between careers is not necessarily a 'retiree'. I doubt a 'retiree' would be interested in a three year program.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Valuethinker »

just_trailing wrote:I am a working computer engineer. My bachelors degree is in Chemical engineering from a top international institute. I came to US 15 years ago for a master's program. Due to the industry scenario at the time, and being a novice, I switched to computer science (got master's degree). For last 12 years have been working as a computer engineer. I can almost say I have not enjoyed a single day of working. I had every intention to complete the master's degree in chemical engineering. Somehow that never happened (marriage, child, no evening classes nearby etc). Now I am at a point where I can't take it anymore. I feel I have wasted my life by not pursuing my intellectual interests. I have no idea what I will be doing if I stay in software industry for another 15 years. I am considering going for a PhD in Chem Eng. I could pay $25k tuition and get a distance Master's degree. But to me it is about building a network as well. Which I think will happen in a full time university setting. We have 1 child and 2nd on the way. Spouse does not work. Any advise is appreciated. Will be glad to share more specifics via private messages. Thanks.
I think it will be difficult to cross back into Chem Eng. You do a Phd, you are out of the workforce for at least 4 years, you will be in your early-mid 40s, difficult to break into a new area.

A Masters is probably worth doing for your own self satisfaction. Feel you finished something you started a long time ago.

Then you can look around: see if there are Phd opportunities, or jobs you would like to do that an MS in Chem Eng would let you take a crack at.

25k seems a lot for a distance masters degree. Are there not other suitable programmes?
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Valuethinker »

Diogenes wrote:Likewise, similar to what Erwin did I am seriously considering pursuing a PhD when I retire from my current job, early next year. My goal? I have a fascination for the topic ( a subset of governance and International Affairs), and would like to teach in a University setting. My practical career has been in the same, but more hands on, area. My Masters was in the late 90's and my concern is that I am too far removed from the 25 year old PhD student that seems typical. My son is now off at college, and spouse is keeping herself busy while supportive of my desires. The program, at a European University would be three years with only part in resident. Application process seems orientated toward the recent graduate (asking for letters of recommendation from former professors, etc - I doubt they would even remember me a dozen years later).

Seems to be unusual to wait this long to pursue the PhD - is it, I wonder.

_D_
Do the Phd for your own self actualization and gratification. Don't expect to get an academic career out of it. You might find an adjunct job somewhere, but it's very difficult even for the ideal 26 year old Phd with a couple of papers published, right now.

Even in Business Schools, practical real world experience does not count for academics (law firm partners trying to become law professors find the same thing). What counts is number of publications in academic journals, and the younger the better (younger academics are more productive, and have more years to publish papers). Academic departments are under constant pressure to raise their research rankings-- and that's basically about papers published in major journals-- papers published per academic.

That said, it's a wonderful thing to do. Yes the applications will try to screen you out, but if you contact the department directly, and even go and see them, you may find them more receptive.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by stoptothink »

dbphd wrote:"I am interested in more details of mpt follower's and Diogenes's stories and stories of any other Bogleheads who have pursued doctorates in retirement. Were the faculty members supportive of an atypical student?"

Yes Victoria, you can expect age discrimination, and for good reason. A PhD program is an expensive proposition for the school that lavishes inordinate attention to grad students in a doctoral program, especially those requiring lab facilities. Why not expend that attention on a student who might have a 40 year career to contribute to their field rather than a retiree? A PhD is not a vanity plate. For those who plan a career of grant-supported research, it's a union card to principal investigator status; for those who plan to teach at the university level, it's a union card for faculty status. And for faculty in the sciences, PI status is a union card to tenure. So why would you squander such a valuable union card?

db
Two of my absolute favortite PhD program-mates were a pair of best friend 60+ yr old physicians who were military retired. I still keep in touch with one who now does consulting work for the military regarding obesity(the focus of our PhD studies). I guess it depends on the program, I was actually one of the youngest and almost felt out of place because everybody had so much more career experience.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by greenspam »

dbphd said about a phd:

"For those who plan a career of grant-supported research, it's a union card to principal investigator status..."

no; need to do a post-doc first...
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kenyan
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by kenyan »

PhD in science/engineering here.

As echoed by many others - do not get a PhD to further your career unless you plan on doing research or academia (which will primarily be research anyhow). You can get jobs in other industries, but the PhD will reduce the breadth of your opportunities. It is possible that, down the road as a chemical engineer, that Dr. in front of your name will garner you additional respect and perhaps promotions or other benefits, but not necessarily likely. If you want to be a full-time researcher, however, the PhD is highly advisable if not mandatory.

From a pay standpoint, the PhD will likely set you back versus just a M.S. Many companies will look at your PhD as "years of experience," which just means that you worked the first several years of your career earning peanuts instead of a healthy salary with benefits.

Now, if this is to satisfy some intellectual curiosity that cannot be satisfied with coursework and an M.S., then by all means go ahead. Just do so with both eyes open. I would say that it is possible, depending upon your adviser, to do most of a PhD without losing one's home life. Sure, there are plenty of people who adopt crazy hours (be they overall time spent or odd hours of the day), but many of those people do not have to do so. There will be times when the research and/or related activities will take preference (running certain experiments, studying for exams, travel to conferences, preparing for qualifying exams or your defense). During those times, life at home will be difficult, but not impossible to manage in most cases. Holding down a job at the same time is not feasible, though it sounds like that is not your plan.
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Jerilynn »

I would think that the best PhD to get, job-wise, is in clinical psychology. You can hang your shingle and not have to worry about any corporate shenanigans.
Course, if you don't want to do that kinda work...
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Re: PhD in retirement

Post by Mudpuppy »

VictoriaF wrote:And there were probably some individuals who have started but dropped out of a PhD program. Were the reasons similar to typical a ABT (All But Thesis) or age-specific?
My experience was that if you survived the first several years of the Ph.D. program, you tended to persist until filing. Most who didn't have the fortitude for all of the politics and maneuvering that takes place along the way tended to be scared off in years 1-3 by the preliminary and qualifying exams (particularly the quals, where nitpicking one's research proposal seems to a favorite pastime of faculty members). And if the research adviser is not satisfied with one's work, one would not be supported to take the quals, which pretty much put the kibosh in trying to get a Ph.D. in the program. They were very good at weeding people out in the first few years in other words.

Among my contemporaries at the graduate research lab, those who made it past the quals and logged another couple of years working on the research and dissertation tended to file, although not always in a timely manner. One of my contemporaries did get an industry job after 6 years of work and never filed, but the others either filed with our original research adviser or switched research advisers (at a severe time penalty) and filed years later.
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Re: PhD in retirement

Post by Jerilynn »

Mudpuppy wrote: My experience was that if you survived the first several years of the Ph.D. program, you tended to persist until filing. Most who didn't have the fortitude for all of the politics and maneuvering that takes place along the way tended to be scared off in years 1-3 by the preliminary and qualifying exams (particularly the quals, where nitpicking one's research proposal seems to a favorite pastime of faculty members). And if the research adviser is not satisfied with one's work, one would not be supported to take the quals, which pretty much put the kibosh in trying to get a Ph.D. in the program. They were very good at weeding people out in the first few years in other words.

Among my contemporaries at the graduate research lab, those who made it past the quals and logged another couple of years working on the research and dissertation tended to file, although not always in a timely manner. One of my contemporaries did get an industry job after 6 years of work and never filed, but the others either filed with our original research adviser or switched research advisers (at a severe time penalty) and filed years later.
Which field are you referring to? Physics, Chem, Biological Sciences?
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muddyglass
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by muddyglass »

just_trailing wrote:I am a working computer engineer. My bachelors degree is in Chemical engineering from a top international institute. I came to US 15 years ago for a master's program. Due to the industry scenario at the time, and being a novice, I switched to computer science (got master's degree). For last 12 years have been working as a computer engineer. I can almost say I have not enjoyed a single day of working. I had every intention to complete the master's degree in chemical engineering. Somehow that never happened (marriage, child, no evening classes nearby etc). Now I am at a point where I can't take it anymore. I feel I have wasted my life by not pursuing my intellectual interests. I have no idea what I will be doing if I stay in software industry for another 15 years. I am considering going for a PhD in Chem Eng. I could pay $25k tuition and get a distance Master's degree. But to me it is about building a network as well. Which I think will happen in a full time university setting. We have 1 child and 2nd on the way. Spouse does not work. Any advise is appreciated. Will be glad to share more specifics via private messages. Thanks.
hello, i finished my ph.d. in math earlier this year and will likely repeat what some of the others have already said. i completely understand that feeling of having wasted one's life not pursuing one's intellectual interests. my bachelor's degree was in electrical engineering and i knew back in college that e.e. wasn't right for me, so i switched over into pure math for grad school to avoid that unbearable pain later.

you don't necessarily need to go for a master's degree first before applying for a ph.d. program; i didn't. in any case, $25k for a distance master's degree sounds like a total rip-off and might not even do you any good since you already have a master's in computer science.

with a wife who doesn't work and two children, you're simply not going to make it on a ph.d. student's stipend unless you already have substantial savings stowed away. life as a ph.d. student is a life of poverty and sacrifice, and there's always that cloud of doom over your head given the high attrition rate in ph.d. programs. you might not enjoy your job, but understand that ph.d. programs have their own flavor of misery in addition to the intellectual rewards.

if you are monetarily satisfied with your job, then it might be better to bear with it until you retire, for the sake of your family. in the mean time, you could also look into whether or not you might be able to do some adjunct teaching at a local college. it will give you a taste of life in academia without taking too much of a toll on your home life. if you like it, you could also continue to teach as an adjunct in your retirement.
moneywise3
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by moneywise3 »

Thanks for all the replies.
Elena78
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Elena78 »

Like some previous posters, I have a PhD as well. If I could do it all over again, I would have stopped at a Bachelor's or Master's. A PhD does not make you more marketable (except for teaching jobs), and in some cases, it makes you less marketable because people assume you will be "too academic" for the position. Teaching jobs pay like crap and aren't as fun as you might think - you can often pursue your intellectual curiosities more with a company that has money than you can at a university (I know from experience). You can look into a career change without going through the long process of getting a PhD. I would not recommend an online program for a higher level degree. The learning is not in the classes, it's in the interactions and lab time.
Rodc
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Rodc »

Elena78 wrote:Like some previous posters, I have a PhD as well. If I could do it all over again, I would have stopped at a Bachelor's or Master's. A PhD does not make you more marketable (except for teaching jobs), and in some cases, it makes you less marketable because people assume you will be "too academic" for the position. Teaching jobs pay like crap and aren't as fun as you might think - you can often pursue your intellectual curiosities more with a company that has money than you can at a university (I know from experience). You can look into a career change without going through the long process of getting a PhD. I would not recommend an online program for a higher level degree. The learning is not in the classes, it's in the interactions and lab time.
I would say that is an over generalization.

I work in a large research lab (couple thousand researchers). We hire many PhDs (Engineering, Math, Physics, Computer Science) and while not strictly required, your starting salary is larger and advancement more likely with a PhD. Very few hires with only a BS, though many MS. So, a PhD is very helpful. So good for more than teaching.

(In fact you don't really get hired to teach at major universities, you get hired to do and direct research, and you teach on the side)

I would suggest though that there are in general more jobs at the MS level than the PhD level.

Also, it really depends on what level of work excites you.
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Elena78
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Elena78 »

Rodc wrote:
I would say that is an over generalization.

I work in a large research lab (couple thousand researchers). We hire many PhDs (Engineering, Math, Physics, Computer Science) and while not strictly required, your starting salary is larger and advancement more likely with a PhD. Very few hires with only a BS, though many MS. So, a PhD is very helpful. So good for more than teaching.

(In fact you don't really get hired to teach at major universities, you get hired to do and direct research, and you teach on the side)

I would suggest though that there are in general more jobs at the MS level than the PhD level.

Also, it really depends on what level of work excites you.
Good points. I guess the original poster needs to clarify what he will do with his PhD.
2sls
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by 2sls »

From your information, just don't do it. You have to be hungry for the PhD- you get what you put into it. People in my program who have children either fail or get divorced.
stoptothink
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by stoptothink »

2sls wrote:From your information, just don't do it. You have to be hungry for the PhD- you get what you put into it. People in my program who have children either fail or get divorced.
This. I didn't have children, but I did get divorced during the process. Can't say it was the root cause, but the (academic and financial) stress of spouses both in graduate school (wife was in dental school) was certainly a large factor. We were both intellectually stressed and had different views about life while we were poor; she wanted to continue the lifestyle of a two-income family, while I stressed over the reality that we were currently a no income family.
umfundi
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by umfundi »

I was single, 24 when I started, 29 when I finished.

If I had the chance to live part of my life over again, 4Yr3Mo at Princeton 1975-80 getting a Ph.D. would be it.

To be fair, I think the OP is facing vastly different issues than I did.

Keith
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Mudpuppy
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Re: Considering going for PhD

Post by Mudpuppy »

Rodc wrote:(In fact you don't really get hired to teach at major universities, you get hired to do and direct research, and you teach on the side)
Yeah, but in reality, most Ph.D.s who go on to academia are not working at major universities. At a smaller university, you'll be lucky to get a 50/50 split of your time. For example, in the University of California system, research is the primary focus. But in the California State University system, one starts out at about a 75/25 split and one has to get research grants or be at a larger, research-focused campus for the split to be otherwise. And if you wind up at a community college, just kiss all research goodbye unless you like working on it during your spare time.
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