Becoming a Landlord Experiences

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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby RobG » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:16 am

newbogleb wrote:Anyone have experience with duplexes versus single family houses?

Generally:
Single family homes attract the best tenants, but offer the least return for your money.
Duplexes are the "sweet spot" with good tenants, and better return than SFHs.
The income from 3-plexes and more etc is even higher, but they can attract deadbeats.
Stay thrifty my friends.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby longfella » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:31 pm

We had our first SFR for two years now ... Here are some of the lessons learned ...

1. If we buy another rental then we would buy something newer (less than 15-20 years)
2. Think twice before renting to "friends" - relationships are complicated, you never know when friends break-up
3. Watch-out for primadonnas - just because they are good on paper (credit & background check), doesn't mean that they are good renters
4. Usually you have to deal with people with less than perfect credit - as somebody else said before, if they have better financial situation they will probably buy a house of their own

We get enough rent to cover the 15 year mortgage, and there is some left over to cover the maintenance. The property appreciated by ~10% in value since we started renting it out. There are definitely days I ask if this is the best use of my time ... but no plans to get out of this business yet :-)
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby travellight » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:06 pm

All great points above.

I would add another one from my perspective.... I have not been super hard core bad tough guy about rent being late. I don't get all over their case. I have 3 tenants who tend to run late and I work with them and they get the rent in within two weeks. I have a modest $25 late fee each week it is late. I have only had them pay $25 but it is there in writing if I really want to enforce it and get more if they go beyond one week. I know some take the tough landlord approach but this has worked for me. I prefer the warm excellent relationship type of experience. I even had a cold call once from a friend of a former tenant who was looking for a place to live and wondered if I had anything available.

Granted, these tenants who tend to run a little late will not get a renewal at their same rate; I will raise the rents on them to some small degree whereas those who are diligent about paying on time will be offered renewal with no increase.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby leonard » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:32 pm

FNK wrote:
leonard wrote:Would you take $170k in cash - and leave it with a stranger to look after while you are not there?

Precisely what you are doing with your $170k asset.

Cash is liquid, anonymous and fungible precisely in a way houses aren't.


We are not talking about liquidity. We are talking about the ability to destroy value. If you think fungibility, liquidity, or anonymity has any impact on tenants ability to knock holes in the wall, have pets destroy carpet, or any of the other many ways they can destroy value, then you aren't getting the point. Basically, tenants can destroy value as easily as if they had the cash in hand. Don't believe this? Ask painters, cleaners, and landlords that clean up places after tenants move out. You are very precisely leaving a relative stranger with $170k of fairly easily destroyed value unattended.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby serge » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:04 am

I've had two experiences.

First was our first home, a townhouse.
Rented it for 2 years due to a move.
Sat empty for 1 year due to vacancy.
Sold it and made a few bucks.
No horror stories.

Second is a commercial property bought a couple of years ago.
Still own it.
Bought for future expansion of current business.
Sat vacant for the first year.
Been rented for the past year with two more to go.
Good tenant.
Rent covers all expenses and even make a few bucks a month.
No horror stories but some unexpected expenses.
AC stolen, electrical fire, roof leaks.

I imagine real estate investing and landlording are like most things people try and make money at.
If you do the research and work hard you have a good chance of making some $.
If you go in blind and don't work hard you have a good chance of loosing some $.

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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby FNK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:04 am

leonard wrote:We are not talking about liquidity. We are talking about the ability to destroy value. If you think fungibility, liquidity, or anonymity has any impact on tenants ability to knock holes in the wall, have pets destroy carpet, or any of the other many ways they can destroy value, then you aren't getting the point. Basically, tenants can destroy value as easily as if they had the cash in hand. Don't believe this? Ask painters, cleaners, and landlords that clean up places after tenants move out. You are very precisely leaving a relative stranger with $170k of fairly easily destroyed value unattended.

I was knocking on the misuse of the word "precisely", not the general concept that there is risk in renting out property. I had the joy of cleaning up after students this year. Shudder.

A tenant stealing $170k will have $170k; a tenant destroying a house will have the absence of the security deposit and bad references for the next house.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby jcw » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:43 am

I rent out a SFH house in a high end area of the San Francisco/Bay Area. I've been renting for about 1.5 years and in that time, the plumbing has clogged 3 times and the refrigerator has broken, leaving all the food rotted. I had to pay for all the fees and replaced my tenant's food due to the broken refrigerator. It's an older house, so problems are expected.

On the bright side, I rented to a friend an ex co-worker. The tenant has been awesome and pays me electronically every month. She keeps the place very clean and is always easy to deal with. Still, I rent at just below break event to my mortgage and if you consider property tax, I am losing money. It's very hard to get a double digit cap rate out here and it seems like renting is a losing proposition in terms of cash flow and opportunity cost. Even though I brought this property at the bottom of the housing bubble (2010), I can't break even on rent. On the positive side, it has appreciated about 50% in value and I can sell it for a huge profit and pay no capital gains tax. T
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby david99 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:30 am

I owned investment property for about seven years. It was a three unit building. The third floor unit was always difficult to rent because it was an attic type of apartment. I did make some decent money when I sold it. I made a better rate of return than I have with stocks and bonds.

A few points on being a landlord:

1. Screen your tenants very carefuly. Once you put them in there it can be difficult and costly to get them out. I would not use a realtor to rent your aparment --- some realtors will take any tenant they can get their hands on just to get the commission and then you are stuck with this lousy tenant. A bad tenant can drive away good tenants and you will have greater turn over. Picking a good tenant is probably the most important thing you can do after buying a good property.
2. Buy a property in a good neighborhood. You will get better tenants and the property will probably appreciate more in a better neighborhood. You can look up property appreciation rates on neighborhoodscout.com. It is true that property is about location, location, location.
3. Keep the apartment and the building in great condition because it will attract better tenants. Paint, make upgrades and have a place where good tenants want to live.
4. Learn how to do basic repairs such as fixing a leaky faucet or broken switch --- it's not hard and will save you money.
5. Being a landlord is a job. You have to rent apartments, screen tenants, fix things or call someone to fix it and meet them at the property to let them into the apartment, ....... It takes time and you might get a phone call from the tenant at 10:00 pm because their heat doesn't work or they don't have hot water.
6. Contact a tenant two months before their lease is up. If the tenant is not going to renew their lease then you want to start to look for a new one.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Fallible » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:39 pm

david99 wrote:I owned investment property for about seven years. It was a three unit building. The third floor unit was always difficult to rent because it was an attic type of apartment. I did make some decent money when I sold it. I made a better rate of return than I have with stocks and bonds.

A few points on being a landlord:

1. Screen your tenants very carefuly. Once you put them in there it can be difficult and costly to get them out. I would not use a realtor to rent your aparment --- some realtors will take any tenant they can get their hands on just to get the commission and then you are stuck with this lousy tenant. Picking a good tenant is probably the most important thing you can do after buying a good property....


As a former co-owner of rental property, I agree the tenant (s) is a No. 1 concern. A property management company can help with tenant selection (and a poor one can do the opposite), but I'd also suggest reading a good book on landlording that has a detailed chapter on tenants, especially "tenants from hell." One really bad one can ruin the business, while a good one can make it.
"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby leonard » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:26 pm

FNK wrote:
leonard wrote:We are not talking about liquidity. We are talking about the ability to destroy value. If you think fungibility, liquidity, or anonymity has any impact on tenants ability to knock holes in the wall, have pets destroy carpet, or any of the other many ways they can destroy value, then you aren't getting the point. Basically, tenants can destroy value as easily as if they had the cash in hand. Don't believe this? Ask painters, cleaners, and landlords that clean up places after tenants move out. You are very precisely leaving a relative stranger with $170k of fairly easily destroyed value unattended.

I was knocking on the misuse of the word "precisely", not the general concept that there is risk in renting out property. I had the joy of cleaning up after students this year. Shudder.

A tenant stealing $170k will have $170k; a tenant destroying a house will have the absence of the security deposit and bad references for the next house.


Stolen or destroyed - the landlord is still out the $170k. Does it matter if someone else got the $170k or it is simply gone? Either way, you don't have it. The rest is semantics. It's gone.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Clearly_Irrational » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:31 pm

leonard wrote:Stolen or destroyed - the landlord is still out the $170k. Does it matter if someone else got the $170k or it is simply gone? Either way, you don't have it. The rest is semantics. It's gone.


You're being absurd. Yes, tenants can cause damage, but it's hardly on the scale you're describing. That's like refusing to invest in stocks because they could possibly go to zero.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby leonard » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:39 pm

Clearly_Irrational wrote:
leonard wrote:Stolen or destroyed - the landlord is still out the $170k. Does it matter if someone else got the $170k or it is simply gone? Either way, you don't have it. The rest is semantics. It's gone.


You're being absurd. Yes, tenants can cause damage, but it's hardly on the scale you're describing. That's like refusing to invest in stocks because they could possibly go to zero.


Sure. It won't be zero. However, I have painted many rentals in the past. And, the damage can be extensive. That's both hard dollar costs in repairs and time/headache spent by the landlord dealing with it.

It's really not absurd. I have seen extreme, expensive damage. It's just a matter of degree.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Honobob » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:08 am

leonard wrote:
Clearly_Irrational wrote:
leonard wrote:Stolen or destroyed - the landlord is still out the $170k. Does it matter if someone else got the $170k or it is simply gone? Either way, you don't have it. The rest is semantics. It's gone.


You're being absurd. Yes, tenants can cause damage, but it's hardly on the scale you're describing. That's like refusing to invest in stocks because they could possibly go to zero.


Sure. It won't be zero. However, I have painted many rentals in the past. And, the damage can be extensive. That's both hard dollar costs in repairs and time/headache spent by the landlord dealing with it.

It's really not absurd. I have seen extreme, expensive damage. It's just a matter of degree.

Leonard
What type of properties are you dealing with that have extreme and extensive damage? Is it still worth it? I only deal with higher end desirable properties that attract deep pocket/responsible people that would be concerned about the consequences of that type of damage. Maybe you should review your tenant selection process. I know people who work the low end but they've never experienced what you have.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby cherijoh » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:14 am

I personally had a miserable experience as a landlord and would never do it again. But my condo didn't sell, so I was basically stuck.

Tenants #1 (a middle aged couple) called me at 3 am expecting me to solve a plumbing problem. Fridge and hot water heater had to be replaced during their tenancy (although not their fault, I was forced to get both fixed very quickly without doing my usual careful research). Shortly after these expenses, the husband lost his job, so they broke the lease right before Thanksgiving. This of course was not an ideal time to have to re-rent the unit, so it was vacant until January or February.

Tenant #2 was a single mom with two kids. My former neighbors called me after they had to call the fire department - one of the kids was a budding pyromanic. I told them I was evicting them (even though it is very diffucult to do in my state if they won't leave voluntarily) - she bounced the final rent check and trashed the house (nail polish poured on the carpet, shattered light fixture etc.). I was out a lot of money beyond the security deposit (since last month's rent went to cover the bounced check), but at that point I was exceedingly grateful that they had vacated the condo! I immediately called a locksmith since she had failed to show for our walkthrough and still had the keys. One of the neighbors called me the next day to say that they had tried to get back in the unit that evening - probably to do more damage and/or to try and haul off the appliances (which they hadn't trashed).

After some major repair work I decided to try one more time to rent it, since there were still numerous units up for sale in the complex. Tenant # 3 was a divorced woman with a sales job. She was a low maintenance tenant, but she was always ran at least a few days late with the rent (but did pay the late fee I included in the lease). After the lease was up, I let her go month to month since I thought it was better to stick with the known. But when her sales territory changed and she decided to move, I put the place on the market and sold it - thankfully fairly quickly. It did sell for more than I expected, but I still lost money in the total rental period and had a lot stress in the meantime!

I have had friends who were landlords who had much better experiences than mine - they all out rented single family homes in quiet residential neighborhoods. The best experience by far was the friend whose house was around the corner from a catholic school - she rented the house to the diocese and her tenants were a couple of middle-aged nuns who taught at the school!
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Honobob » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:36 am

cherijoh wrote:I personally had a miserable experience as a landlord and would never do it again. But my condo didn't sell, so I was basically stuck.


Seems most people who have bad experiences are those that become involuntary landlords. Every property that I've bought I've planned for it's eventual rental. Not all properties that I could live in would be good rentals but I could live in any one of my rentals. The landlord experience starts before the purchase.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby FNK » Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:22 pm

leonard wrote:Stolen or destroyed - the landlord is still out the $170k. Does it matter if someone else got the $170k or it is simply gone? Either way, you don't have it. The rest is semantics. It's gone.

The word "precisely" implies that tenants would be as motivated to destroy a house as they would be to steal its worth in cash. I say the motivation is vastly different, and that's why you see a huge rental market and a tiny loan-random-people-piles-of-cash market.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby leonard » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:57 pm

FNK wrote:
leonard wrote:Stolen or destroyed - the landlord is still out the $170k. Does it matter if someone else got the $170k or it is simply gone? Either way, you don't have it. The rest is semantics. It's gone.

The word "precisely" implies that tenants would be as motivated to destroy a house as they would be to steal its worth in cash. I say the motivation is vastly different, and that's why you see a huge rental market and a tiny loan-random-people-piles-of-cash market.


Value is gone either way - as an asset owner I don't really care what the motivation is. Value destroyed is value gone. Value stolen is value gone. Close enough for this analysis.

OP can decide if the semantics apply to him or her OR if the fact that signifcant potantial value is gone applies to his or her situation. I think you and I will just disagree.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby FNK » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:37 pm

leonard wrote:Value is gone either way - as an asset owner I don't really care what the motivation is. Value destroyed is value gone. Value stolen is value gone. Close enough for this analysis.

OP can decide if the semantics apply to him or her OR if the fact that signifcant potantial value is gone applies to his or her situation. I think you and I will just disagree.

OK, OK.

If you ask people the question "what is the probability of you seeing a live dinosaur tomorrow in the street", some people will answer "one in a trillion", others will answer "50/50 - either you see one, or you don't".
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby reggiesimpson » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:56 pm

Been there done that and wont do it again.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Honobob » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:20 am

reggiesimpson wrote:Been there done that and wont do it again.

What. Did you do wrong?
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby New39 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:35 am

Reading through this thread, I am still a bit confused on what is more efficient approach: Invest on income producing property such as Condo or multiple family house to collect rent, or put money into index fund? Have anyone done any study on this?
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby atfish » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:04 pm

New39 wrote:Reading through this thread, I am still a bit confused on what is more efficient approach: Invest on income producing property such as Condo or multiple family house to collect rent, or put money into index fund? Have anyone done any study on this?

I would think it would be almost impossible to conduct such a study, that would be very reliable, since there are so many variables especially on rental property.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Clearly_Irrational » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:18 pm

New39 wrote:Reading through this thread, I am still a bit confused on what is more efficient approach: Invest on income producing property such as Condo or multiple family house to collect rent, or put money into index fund? Have anyone done any study on this?


That would depend on your goals, risk tolerance, size of your portfolio, tax situation, etc. For my situation I find the most efficient decision is to do both.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby kamo » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:54 pm

We looked at getting into the landlording business for single family homes in 2011 as it was clear that winds (low mortgage rates, low home values, etc.) were still blowing in our favor. We worked with a very good agent and saw a lot of houses. We made offers on a couple of them and even had one offer accepted, and then we pulled out at the last minute. We lost some money on the deal but a year on I'm glad we didn't go through with it. Financially it was the right time and I'm sure we would have done reasonably well over time. Time was the deciding factor for us. We felt that it would tie us down and restrict our freedom to travel as and where we wanted. The more possessions one has, it seems to us, the less freedom one has.

You may want to ask all the existing landlords that responded to your query how much time they spend per week or month managing, maintaining, protecting, updating, caring for, accounting, repairing their properties. Then ask yourself whether this is time you want to commit. This time can be seen as both a negative, like work, as well as a positive, like an opportunity to teach your children how to take care of a house and do basic repairs.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Lumpr » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:04 pm

pc95 wrote: . . .

Those of you who have been or are landlords, what is your feelings on being a landlord? Too much work, great experience,
not worth it, great tenants, awful tenants, investing in repairs, draining,too much time, easy etc?

Thanks.


It's like anything else, it largely depends on what your put into it and your personality.

Done properly, it doesn't require an inordinate amount of time and you can attain relatively high returns. However, unlesss you want to count on luck, it's not something you can do well without putting some effort into. Almost every horror story I've ever hear is just an example of someone in over their head without a plan.

You need to operate it as a business.

Here is a nonexhaustive list of matters to consider: (1) how do you screen tenants, (2) what is the max security deposit you can demand, do you want security deposits, what are the alternatives, (3) how to locate quality cost effective plumbers/electricians/etc., (4) do you want a month to month or long-term lease, (5) how do you develop a landlord favorable lease form, (6) what do you do if someone is late on the rent, (7) what is the process of eviction and how do you execute it, (8) what do you do if a tenant physically intemidates/threatens you, (9) its midnight and the tenant calls saying the garbage disposal is clogged . . . what do you do, (10) where and how is the rent paid, and how do you verify payment in a timely fashion, (11) do you want/need an LLC, (12) what type of insurance to you need, (13) the neighbor's house two doors down just exploded, it blew some of the windows out of your rental, there is debris all over the place, and the officials are evacuating the area . . . what do you do (this happened in an fairly upscale neighborhood btw), (14) a tenant moved out in the middle of the night what do you do, (15) tenant is moving at the end of the lease, what do you do?

If you'd enjoy solving these problems (and there are fairly simple efficient solutions to all of them); maybe you'd enjoy your experience and it might be financially rewarding. If you look at this list and hesitate, it's likely not for you. Once you get the right "systems" in place for handling the business operations, it is not very time intensive.

Caveat - I own rentals, and they've been very financially rewarding for me.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby New39 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:54 pm

Caveat - I own rentals, and they've been very financially rewarding for me.


What is the rough return on cash flow before tax?
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby Nate270 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:27 pm

My wife knows that one of the happiest days of my life was selling my last rental property last year and getting out of the landlord game. I read rich dad poor dad when I was 21 and thought it was a great idea....12 years later.....it wasn't that great of an idea.....its just a really terrible second job. Swedroe summarizes it best, "rental real estate is an uncompensated risk". Buy a reit, or make property management your full time job. Good luck.
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Re: Becoming a Landlord Experiences

Postby fareastwarriors » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:41 pm

Nate270 wrote:My wife knows that one of the happiest days of my life was selling my last rental property last year and getting out of the landlord game. I read rich dad poor dad when I was 21 and thought it was a great idea....12 years later.....it wasn't that great of an idea.....its just a really terrible second job. Swedroe summarizes it best, "rental real estate is an uncompensated risk". Buy a reit, or make property management your full time job. Good luck.



Yes, plenty of bad stories out there. Landlording is a business. Treat it like that and you can see majority of people should and will fail to make a decent (if any) return on it.
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